So...the Jackal Now Breaks The Rules [Aka Pvp Now Effects Pve]

[letir]

----

 

My two cents would be to let players choose to have the boss scale or not, Nightmare Style. When a node has the nightmare tag, you can choose between normal mode, and nightmare mode. Do the same for bosses. Normal mode, or Scaling mode. It'd let people have a challenge, but not force it on low level players. Problem solved. 

We don't need "train-on-a-clanmate-mode" for newbies.

[fredbred]

I agree that the mobs should not scale with the players. If you fight a lvl 10 boss, he should always be a lvl 10 boss. If you seek challenge, you play nightmare or higher tier enemies.

 

We had the same problem with Jackal, we could not even get off the ground, he knocked the whole party all the time. By the time I could move my frame, there was the next wave, 

 

It makes no sense that the difficult of the mission depends for example on the host, especially when the game connects (if it does at all) randomly and you cannot control who you connect to (if you dont play invite only). You make three runs of the same mission with totally different enemy strength. Why bother with levels at all then.

[fredbred]

Actually, the beauty of scaling down should be only in the players hands. If they want to play a boss more challenging, they can strip down the frame and weapons. A weapon lvl 30 without mods is as good as a lvl 0 weapon. With the frames you got more health, but you gonna need that anyway if you fight with your b(e)ar(e) hands :-)

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Why not just have multiple difficulty settings for assassination missions? The higher the tier, the better chances are for higher tier mods/more credits/resources. Veterans wouldn't bother with the lower difficulty versions and the newer players would actually be guaranteed to get a challenge that's fair for them at that stage of the game, considering they are far from being able to have access to resources to allow them to build better gear.

[Desgax]

They need to nerf the amount of times he can spam that ground slam attack. He'll literally sit there and do nothing but spam it making it impossible to shoot him or to revive teammates.They also need to change how he scales because I'll go in with fellow MR2-4 people on my alt account and we'll do fine. Shoot the legs, take him down, rinse and repeat until dead. BUT once and a while you'll get some MR6 guy with high level stuff yet no idea on how to kill him. He'll spend all his time shooting at the body while his gear makes the Jackal level 40 so we don't do crap against his legs. They should have the armor not scale against his legs. The legs should have more health not more health AND armor. Not to mention the Jackal 1HKOs everyone with his missiles with there's no counter for so eventually everyone gets downed and can't revive each other because he spams the shockwaves. All this because some random n00b with higher level gear scales him super high. The only time I enjoyed playing with a higher level guy was when they were Mirage with a Penta. They 1HKO'd the Jackal at least unlike the other people.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I'm all for making bosses challenging again, but dang. That sounds rough.

[Teibidh]

I have to agree that scaling bosses is bad news. I had to go back to a couple of bosses that I had beaten previously before a hiatus to get nav segments from them this past week, a couple of them were outright horrendous. If all of the content and potential rewards were designed to be scaled with relative level, that would be one thing. But the way everything in the game is layed out there are places to fight given enemies at a given difficulty tier (each planet focuses on a faction in a specific level range), if someone wants  a more difficult fight, they go to a higher level planet.

 

Now, if you're going to introduce scaling of the boss difficulty and you want to scale rewards from him too, that's cool. If he's 10 times tougher because I'm 10 times tougher then the chance for rare mods, etc, needs to be upped too... otherwise, why would I go fight him? I just stick to an area designed for my level range and get some of the rewards that only drop from higher tier enemies.

 

A "better" solution would be to created void or derilect versions of the various bosses.. Introduce a story objective where someone or something went and "rescued" the various bosses that you beat and "improved" them. You can do a whole storyline out of it, introduce a whole new set of missions, and you don't even have to recreate the bosses. Take the exact same room, same boss, let it scale and stick it in an area with higher power cannon fodder to beat to get to it. Sell blueprints for the key to "Jackal Void Assassination" cheap and poof... anyone who wants a challenge can have it, and the rest of the world can be left alone.

[Gigaus]

We don't need "train-on-a-clanmate-mode" for newbies.

 

Sure we don't.....With how many walls now in the way for newbies? Level wall, Gear wall, Credit wall, Mod wall, Boss wall, Resource wall....Maybe you haven't played Warframe from scratch in a while, but....Getting on your feet from the start is a god aweful nightmare.

 

And even if that weren't the case.......Why shouldn't we have a 'train with clanmate/friends' mode?....In a Co-op PvE game......What is your reason we -shouldn't-? 

 

 

I have to agree that scaling bosses is bad news. I had to go back to a couple of bosses that I had beaten previously before a hiatus to get nav segments from them this past week, a couple of them were outright horrendous. If all of the content and potential rewards were designed to be scaled with relative level, that would be one thing. But the way everything in the game is layed out there are places to fight given enemies at a given difficulty tier (each planet focuses on a faction in a specific level range), if someone wants  a more difficult fight, they go to a higher level planet.

 

Now, if you're going to introduce scaling of the boss difficulty and you want to scale rewards from him too, that's cool. If he's 10 times tougher because I'm 10 times tougher then the chance for rare mods, etc, needs to be upped too... otherwise, why would I go fight him? I just stick to an area designed for my level range and get some of the rewards that only drop from higher tier enemies.

 

A "better" solution would be to created void or derilect versions of the various bosses.. Introduce a story objective where someone or something went and "rescued" the various bosses that you beat and "improved" them. You can do a whole storyline out of it, introduce a whole new set of missions, and you don't even have to recreate the bosses. Take the exact same room, same boss, let it scale and stick it in an area with higher power cannon fodder to beat to get to it. Sell blueprints for the key to "Jackal Void Assassination" cheap and poof... anyone who wants a challenge can have it, and the rest of the world can be left alone.

 

 

Yeah, this is pretty much what I hear when I talk to others about this; About how in any other game, scaling in this way t ends to defeat the rest of the game. Why try to improve your gear, if the enemy is just going to be more resistant to it anyway?...Why bump up your Sword to Sword +1 if the enemy you were struggling at lvl 15 is then increased to lvl 20?.....In this case, it doesn't make them more challenging; It makes the more tedious. Someone mentioned before it becomes a game of ammo management-- It does...If you run out of ammo on most of these bosses with gimicks, you can't melee them to death. As I mentioned, Jackal is sorta okay since ammo and orbs drop regularly in the area, but outside this one boss, that doesn't happen; No ammo, orbs, or even enemies to get ammo off of......What happens when you fight the raptor-- The flying Ospray that never gets into melee range-- who's level 75 and takes all of your ammo just to bring down to half HP? What then?....Pray that the server bugs out and he randomly explodes? 

 

And like Teibidh said, why bother going back to these guys?....Other than you're now forced to to open planets on your own, there's next to no reason to ever fight a boss. Farm, sure, some of them, but not many. And even so, you can just piggy back on friends still, and play one of their missions on another planet to skip the boss, defeating the whole point of making them required-- which, I'm calling it now, they're going to shoehorn some way to prevent people from either joining higher level missions, or unlocking nodes by played with friends, either of which will cause the lower end and some of the higher end to basically go 'nope' and leave. There needs to be a reason they are getting harder, and appropriately a reward to match. No, DE, not all of us want a challenge for bragging rights; Not all of us are that shallow. 

 

As to the idea of making alternate versions of the bosses, that would work well, and give people a new reason to go back to the void or derelicts than 'farm this thing until I don't need it anymore'. Better rewards, as well as those who are looking for challenges, would bring more people to them.  

Edited August 6, 2014 by Gigaus

[Macdermott]

Why not just have multiple difficulty settings for assassination missions? The higher the tier, the better chances are for higher tier mods/more credits/resources. Veterans wouldn't bother with the lower difficulty versions and the newer players would actually be guaranteed to get a challenge that's fair for them at that stage of the game, considering they are far from being able to have access to resources to allow them to build better gear.

This idea should be receiving more positive attention.

 

I ran a Vor mission the other night with my lower level friends and they were repeatedly raped. I was fortunate enough to be able to snipe Vor from far away with my Aklex after my Boltor ran out of ammo - this guy was simply too difficult.

 

Challenge = good.  OP Bosses =/= Challenge.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Macdermott

[Alkirin]

If you can't beat the boss, that isn't a challenge.  That's a wall.  Beating your head against a wall isn't a measure of skill and accomplishment, it's a measure of how much you value your time and, past a point, your dignity.

 

If rewards don't scale, then bosses shouldn't scale.  That cripples the risk vs reward balance and undermines the premise of a boss battle entirely.

 

Also understand, this was mostly done to spite high level players that were running low level bosses for key rare drops.  Not only does this solution NOT stop those players from farming, but it punishes people who aren't.  This is just a bad thing that needs to go.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Alkirin

[vaugahn]

The problem with bosses being fixed at a certain level is that after a while they no longer present a challenge. The scaling is a little messed up right now, but in essence it's a good idea. 

[Celle-Reveris]

Perhaps boss mods in particular should have a form of difficulty select feature(especially once higher leveled enemies actually amount to better loot)

One option giving them their static level, the other making them scale with the average/total conclave of the squad. Nightmares, on the other hand should always scale to conclave with a bit more bias toward higher level enemies.

[fredbred]

The problem with bosses being fixed at a certain level is that after a while they no longer present a challenge. The scaling is a little messed up right now, but in essence it's a good idea. 

That would be nice if it would be working, but it is exactly what the problem is. In a team of four members - Mastery 15, 12, 8 and 2 with their best gear - who would you prefer to be presented with a challenge? (mastery is only meant as guidance for their resource/equipment availability).

 

Scaling the mobs automatically is not a good thing. Level 15 should always be level 15. Another thing is to allow players to choose a higher level enemies - let say normal, hard (+15lvls) and nightmare(+30lvls).

 

Just my view though.

[Gigaus]

The problem with bosses being fixed at a certain level is that after a while they no longer present a challenge. The scaling is a little messed up right now, but in essence it's a good idea. 

 

Sorry, picking this one out first-- So?....

 

So what if they don't present a challenge, after a certain point? Sure, the first few times you fight them, but after you've beaten them 100 times over and gotten passed their level five fold? No....This is the notion that's the problem; Not every boss on every level should be a challenge to everyone. It's like saying the first boss in the game should be difficult to a character that's at max level; Unless they have a gimmick, that would defeat the whole point of having levels at all. 

 

Let me present it this way. J-RPGs, I know not everyone loves them, but they're great when you just want to look at numbers. If you level your wizard to lv50...Would you expect them to only do 1 point of damage to a level 10 monster? Would you expect your lv70 tank to die to a level 15 boss with no gimmik or special?...To put it in more popular terms; Would you expect your level 80 Pokemon to be oneshot by a level 10 anything, while douing 5 points of damage even on an attack that's super effective? No, of course not; That goes against the principle of leveling up in the first place.

 

the whole point of leveling, grinding, getting better gear, is so that eventually the things you're struggling with now are not a challenge again.

 

Have them scale a little, at most, but don't have them scale to the point they're unbeatable without excessive means. Especially if they already have a gimmick that make's them undamaged normally [see Ruk, Alad V, Jackal] 

 

 

This idea should be receiving more positive attention.

 

I ran a Vor mission the other night with my lower level friends and they were repeatedly raped. I was fortunate enough to be able to snipe Vor from far away with my Aklex after my Boltor ran out of ammo - this guy was simply too difficult.

 

Challenge = good.  OP Bosses =/= Challenge.

 

 

Agreed. His idea should get a bit more traction that it is. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by Gigaus

[Eudamon]

I just did a solo run on the Jackal - that thing is seriously overpowered. I was using a Phage on its OP Setting - including Vicious Spread - and it barely scratched the Jackal. In the past I could kill the Jackal by aiming at its body and emptying a clip. Now I barely scratched its legs.

 

I would prefer if the boss was stuck at its set level.

 

However, I also DO enjoy a challenge, so I would recommend the same thing they did with the Hive mission - a challenge rating that goes up. You kill a boss a few times, your rating for that boss goes up. Now there are two ways of handling that. Either DE gives us an alternative mission, similar to the Nightmare mission, so you always have the choice of going up against a leveled boss if you want to, or the boss acts a bit like the Stalker - you get marked by the boss, and during any mission (or just an extermination mission) the leveled boss might show up. If you kill the boss, your rating goes up even further (cue, even more powerful boss), if you fail, the boss rating will drop or be reset, and he won't come after you again, until you do the next boss run.

[fredbred]

Either use the levels as means for strength reference or get rid of them. If Mission with lev 10 - 13 means something different based on your sentinel, frame, weapon or color of the underwear of your team mates, it is better not to show any levels at all.

 

This makes no sense. You have a wpn you can kill a boss with. You level it up five levels and some random ppl join your team and suddenly your weapon is useless. This is not challenging, this is confusing and frustrating.

 

If you would like to keep the levels and scale the challenge, you need to have something like a permanent nightmare version of the bosses, where the player can choose what he wants. You cannot satisfy both sides with one system. BTW - if you scale the difficulty, you should scale the reward as well.

[(PSN)DemonWolfPrime]

when i ran the jackal for my kubrow quest it threw me in with a mastery rank 0 excal with starter gear - the boss scaled to me, it was a tough run even with my best gear, but my poor teamate didnt even have a chance. everyone seems to lose in this senario - you stopped me from insta-killing the boss for the sake of my teamate who is too underleveled to do any damage.

[fredbred]

lol I hope the DE won't make a system where the Mastery 0 player would scale up so he has any chance ending up screwing the level system all together.

[RealPandemonium]

It literally scales with your conclave.  Boss too hard? Take off some mods or equipment.  The boss is now easier. This isn't rocket science.  

[fredbred]

It literally scales with your conclave.  Boss too hard? Take off some mods or equipment.  The boss is now easier. This isn't rocket science.  

Sure, but why bother with levels at all, if the same level boss change. And what outfit would you take for a public game? How do you fight a boss who is scaled to a high conclave if you are stripped down (new weapons), when you join a random public game where the host is high conclave. So you will be basically a tourist and hope the host can deal with the boss alone. That's simply wrong.

[bl4ckhunter]

i think that jackal is broken atm becouse at least alad v, phorid, krill, ruk and vay hek die really easy for me even with super high conclave team

[Gigaus]

Sure, but why bother with levels at all, if the same level boss change. And what outfit would you take for a public game? How do you fight a boss who is scaled to a high conclave if you are stripped down (new weapons), when you join a random public game where the host is high conclave. So you will be basically a tourist and hope the host can deal with the boss alone. That's simply wrong.

 

This in a nutshell. Scalling a boss, especially when it has a gimmick like Jackal-- Who has damage shields unless you 'down' one part of it-- defeats the point of the boss being a gate keeper. On the low end of things, you're never going to beat this boss on your own, and if you get in a party then it's basically a brick wall of HP ontop of whatever gimmick it has. And on the higher end, it means farming for resources, which are already a pain in the &#! to farm, is near impossible unless you build exactly right. It's like that $&*&*#(%& crap we saw in early Diabolic 3, where the only stat that mattered was how much 'Magic Item Find' you had to get that fat loot; Now all that matters is how low your conclave rating is to game the system. 

 

Bluntly, it's both this elitism that we've been seeing of 'if you're not good enough to fight them alone, you shouldn't be playing' and this backwards notion of 'everything has to be geared around end tier' is the exact opposite of what we need. Players are leaving because they can't progress in the game as it is, and kitting out the bosses ONLY-- There is no arguing it, these bosses are now ONLY viable for end tier players with many options will only cause these newer players to call this game out and spend no money to keep it alive. What's the point in playing if you can't move on to the next level, because the boss in the starting area has a higher level/hp/damage than commons in the last level? 

[Coatduck]

So I jsut rand a mission with a friend to kill the jackal again, and, on a 12 level, he spawned at 55....Armor so high we couldn't even down his shields...I managed to get him down to half health with my Acrid before he wiped the party with rocket spam every second.....Confirm/Deny: Bosses now scale with your conclave rating? Someone in our clan said that this was the case and....Yeah

 

If it's true, this pretty much breaks the game in so many possible ways. And if it doesn't WHY THE HELL IS A LEVEL 10 WORLD BOSS LEVEL 55 ON SPAWN?!

 

Hugs and kisses, Giga

Now this may be obvious, but

Did you try shooting his legs first, and then waiting for him to be down? Because I seem to have no problem fighting him at level 50

Edit: Solo, he was level 65, and it was a nightmare mission. Took me under a minute.

Make sure you're shooting at his legs, sometimes it's a little derpy and shows you shooting the legs but it's actually the main body.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Coatduck

[RLanzinger]

Jackal... a peculiar boss, I personally... HATE !!!

 

Why ? because since I played warframe (update 6 or seven), All the bosses were hard do deal with. I comparison, Vor who only had shield and his stupid pistol take me 30' to kill but it was the second time because the first time I used all my ammo (latron), yes all the five hundreds ammo on vor  add on this the old three ammo box (old refill system) and I raid the map to the extraction to .... I guess around 3.000 shots in his S#&$ty head to take him a third of his life (I abandon because there was no more ammo).

I ended giving up and fight a whole week to get Energy syphon (before the aura system, it was Highly Rare) and my twin Ethers swords. It take me only and Half hour because I run away to charge my energy and then run into vor being invisible slashing him with my "ignore armor" Ethers blades... sigh... a good memory XD

 

Why I hate Jackal ??? : because Syphon+Ether+run away tactics work on most boss except.... Tanky Jackal and Flying Raptor. Even with a excellent Latron (I still have, despite the lovely Wraith version), It take me a half hour to find the way to kill him without being send to heaven and a full hour just to kill him with a cutting edge strategy (Take cover being a pillar, shot a hundred of bullet, RUN to flee from the missile, take cover...).

 

Today I tried to kill Jackal several times with my level 0 Latron Prime, level 13 poorly mods Silvia and my "no offensive power" LOKI lvl30. I still find it hard to deal with 'cause It still take me about 20' to kill him and my sentinels (Stinger level 60) rush kill it in less than 30 sec.

 

This is why I hate Jackal :  because it reminds me of the good old days and that playing Warframe is NOT EASY and i love this game for this XD

[Gigaus]

Now this may be obvious, but

Did you try shooting his legs first, and then waiting for him to be down? Because I seem to have no problem fighting him at level 50

Edit: Solo, he was level 65, and it was a nightmare mission. Took me under a minute.

Make sure you're shooting at his legs, sometimes it's a little derpy and shows you shooting the legs but it's actually the main body.

 

We were, and it took a clip and a half to take out one leg. 

 

Please tell us, what is your conclave when you run it solo, so we can test this ourselves....We kinda need to confirm this.