Thank You For Finally Trying To Bring More Balance To The Game

[Deathstriker]

 I for one would like thank DE for finally trying to balance the gameplay and hope to see a lot more in the future. A future where all weapons and warframes will hopefully be "viable" and we will remove the "mastery trash" description for a lot of weapons. While a lot of people have "concerns" about this harsh move I'm sure DE will look into them, tweek stuff and try to make everyone happy, like they always have.

 The crying and shouting like little children is just disgusting and i hope DE prepared for it, but most importantly i hope they don't back down(like they sometimes did) and revert the changes because of all the QQing. Just because a flood of people jumped on the forums to shout "OMG give me my OC and forma back" doesn't mean that they represent the majority of players, who i believe are pleased with the changes, but like me rarely use/read the forums.

 

Keep up the good work DE.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I agree. DE is finally adding balance to the game and I like it! Although I think some things still need tweaking (like the now too low ammo pool on launchers), what they did was definitely a step in the right direction (better too low than too high in my opinion, now these weapons have a skill ceiling). As long as they stop listening to QQ players and listen to those who make well thought out, sound arguments for or against buffs or nerfs, I think DE will be better off.

 

I hope to see Ammo 2.0 next, honestly. That should bring in a good wave of changes to how weapons are used before the buffs and nerfs roll in.

[inthephonebox]

I think the sniper/launcher tweaks (what I'm assuming this is referring to) was a step in the right direction. But it was just that, a single step, and I do hope they keep up with forum posts (at least the respectful and constructive ones) and make further changes. 

I'd like to specifically mention the Miter, which I believe still needs a lot of work. I think the reduction of ammo makes sense logically, but it jut turned a bad weapon into a bad weapon with no ammo. I really want this gun to work, because I love the idea of shooting saw blades. Stems from Half-Life 2 launching saw blades with the grav-gun. But the blades travel too slow and the charge damage doesn't warrant the charge time, in my opinion. Previously my strategy for this gun was to rely on its proc rate and rapid fire off as many blades as I could to form a wall of procs that may, though rarely do, ricochet for more procs. But with the reduced ammo size it turns poor ammo economy into ammo depression. To alleviate this I think all that needs to be done is to increase the travel time of the blades, at least to the speed of bolt projectile weapons; and either decrease the charge time slightly or increase the damage and ricochet times of the charged shot. 

Haven't tested the other changes yet, but they look like a good first step on paper. 

 

Edit: Lol, my bad, the Miter actually didn't get changed. But I think my suggestions could still apply.

Keep up the good work DE.

Edited August 14, 2014 by inthephonebox

[alfaomega04]

Bumping this thread as this resonates with my feelings towards this balancing patch. It's what the community has been voicing for a long time now. Balance. 

 

It took them longer than expected in my opinion but I'm glad they're finally reviewing the balance of the game. We are "beta testers" (whatever that means nowdays) and are here to provide useful feedback that can be implemented to better the game. I too felt the urge to rage when nova got nerfed but I knew she was OP and knew the nerf would (and, more importatbly, should) happen.

 

I applaud them for their efforts and expect even more changes to make the game as good as possible.

 

*cough* braton buff *cough* 

 

Good on you DE.

Edited August 14, 2014 by alfaomega04

[SoulEchelon]

I posted this in another thread that sadly seems to have died out a bit. But it fits the theme of this thread too, and for the most part is the last thing I want to say on this subject.

 

 

"Balance literally means a state of equilibrium. Where everything works exactly as it should. Obviously perfect balance can never be achieved in any game, and frankly in any universe. But as it ties to the matter at hand, we need to see that launcher styled weapons were simply not balanced as they currently were.

 

People point out that certain rifle weapons can out-dps launcher weapons. True, however they also don't have AOEs that can hit in a very large sphere of damage. Rifles are great for single target, slow enemies, but launchers are far better when it comes to large crowds. This is a general vision for balance. One weapon has a strength that another weapon does not.

 

When it pertains to ammo capacity, let's break it down.

 

Rifle: Single Target. High to Extreme Rate of Fire. Very Low to Low damage per shot. Mid to High Accuracy. Highest Ammo Capacity.

 

It's pretty obvious why Rifles have the highest ammo capacity. Their high rate of fire and low damage per bullet makes it so that they Need that high ammo capacity to be worthwhile.

 

Launchers: Area of Effect. Very Low Rate of Fire. Extreme damage per shot.  (surprisingly) Mid to High Accuracy. Lowest Ammo Capacity.

 

It should be pretty obvious here too. Launchers hit extremely hard and hit a ton of enemies in one shot. With their low rate of fire, they have little to no need for a huge amount of ammo. Especially when you factor in the fact that enemies will happily drop ammo for you. And, since you're killing them in huge groups, you'll have little trouble procuring more ammo. Then there's also ammo restore items as well as lockers/breakables.

 

The problem with launchers before this update, was that there was an imbalance. 540 rockets? The same amount as a rifle? That is not balanced. At all. There was no reason at all to mod ammo capacity. Perhaps magazine capacity, but certainly not ammo capacity. You could shoot rockets for days and still have enough ammo to shoot for another week. Come on. It was ridiculous.

 

TL;DR: The long and short of it is: Launchers had the same ammo as assault rifles. The same ammo as SMGs. That's an imbalance. Sure, there are other imbalances that need to be fixed (In fact, SMGs is one of them. Their insanely high RoF should actually give them more ammo capacity) but currently, this is the one that needed to be fixed post-haste. It's not perfect yet, but DE is on the right track.

 

And with that I think I'm going to retire. If people still want to cry foul, then I just don't really care anymore. I think it's a great change. Again not perfect yet, but with tweaking it will be. I won't be changing my stance on it, and I doubt my posts changed anyone else's."

 

Keep it up DE. We've asked for this change ever since Ogris appeared, and you've finally implemented it. A bit late...but it's better late than never.

[NeverJeffer]

I personally think that "balance" would be a little more improving of the things that don't quite work and a little less nerfing of the things that work too well... But to each his own I suppose.

[Mak_Gohae]

If balance means more required mods/items i think you are right.

But if it's not that then the definition is incorrect.

[R3DBelmont456]

 I for one would like thank DE for finally trying to balance the gameplay and hope to see a lot more in the future. A future where all weapons and warframes will hopefully be "viable" and we will remove the "mastery trash" description for a lot of weapons. While a lot of people have "concerns" about this harsh move I'm sure DE will look into them, tweek stuff and try to make everyone happy, like they always have.

 The crying and shouting like little children is just disgusting and i hope DE prepared for it, but most importantly i hope they don't back down(like they sometimes did) and revert the changes because of all the QQing. Just because a flood of people jumped on the forums to shout "OMG give me my OC and forma back" doesn't mean that they represent the majority of players, who i believe are pleased with the changes, but like me rarely use/read the forums.

 

Keep up the good work DE.

Well you know what, it's even more disgusting that a lot of players are just stepping all over those that just wasted time, money and efforts to level their favorite weapons, just to watch them all burn and crumble to the grounds of uselessness... and frankly that's all I've been seeing as of late. No cheer up it will get better, just, Ya'LL got what was comin to ya! BS... and FYI to all of you spewing out the word balance like you even know what it means... Until you design a pokemon game for yourself and have properly balanced all 770 pokemon to work well... THEN you can speak to me and everyone else about balance.

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[NeverJeffer]

In response to SoulEchelon specifically, I would like to say that in regards to this debate,  I have seen no one (not a single person) asking DE to change things back entirely.  Instead, I have seen posts that agree with you that these changes are on the right track but are not perfect.  Some of these posts have been very angry, that is true, but even those people welcome the general direction of the changes made.  What people are angry about is the magnitude and execution of the changes.  By listening to those people (yourself included unless i truly misunderstood your perspective) DE will be making a better game.  I also think that DE would be well served if they did a little more testing / quality control before they patched our game (yours theirs and mine).

Edited August 14, 2014 by NeverJeffer

[UFOLoche]

Y'know, I'd say the people parading these nerfs around and laughing at people who just liked the weapons are more childish.  Those are the people who are sad, people who seem like the only way they could ever feel special was on Warframe.  I'm not even really mad about the nerf, I'm just laughing at all the childish people who think the joke "SWEET SALTY TEARS" is mature and a good way to argue(Also the fact that they think they'll do better than me now.)

 

A bit of advice:  Don't mock people and act so silly, there's gonna come a time where that weapon you like gets unfairly overly-nerfed, too.

 

But on topic: The weapons needed an ammo nerf, yes, but 25 is way too low for the Penta.  Bring it up to 50, bring Angstrum up to 60, Torid up to 40-60(That's what I hear anyway), and talk to Castana users on what the Castana needs.  Also, I wonder if there'd be a way to make it so only people who've actually used these weapons for extensive amounts of time had their opinions weighed...hm.  That'd be interesting.

Edited August 14, 2014 by UFOLoche

[vaugahn]

I personally think that "balance" would be a little more improving of the things that don't quite work and a little less nerfing of the things that work too well... But to each his own I suppose.

 

Balance requires both bringing down overperforming weapons and bringing up underperforming weapons. This patch was an excellent attempt at that.

 

Obviously there's still room for improvement (there always is) but I think the point of this thread is that the sheer amount of QQ going on right now is totally unproductive. 

Edited August 14, 2014 by vaugahn

[R3DBelmont456]

Balance requires both bringing down overperforming weapons and bringing up underperforming weapons. This patch was an excellent attempt at that.

 

Obviously there's still room for improvement (there always is) but I think the point of this thread is that the sheer amount of QQ going on right now is totally unproductive. 

in all honesty it was a terrible fix... Rockets are now only useful in defense, and snipers are still not better than bows... what good has come of it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING~!! What Bad has come of it, Quite a lot...

Edited August 14, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[Mak_Gohae]

Balance requires both bringing down overperforming weapons and bringing up underperforming weapons. This patch was an excellent attempt at that.

 

Obviously there's still room for improvement (there always is) but I think the point of this thread is that the sheer amount of QQ going on right now is totally unproductive. 

 

Damage wasn't touched on the launchers so it's still as overperforming as ever.

Loosing one slot to A mutator does not lower the damage so dramatically that you wont be clearing rooms.

 

The problem with the launcher is their killing power and not the ammo efficientcy because this ammo eficientcy exist in every low fire rate weapon.

Why do we not hear cries of nerfing all other low fire rate weapons that never run out of ammo? Because they dont one-shot-kill groups of enemies.

 

This ammo thing has been looked at wrong from the start.

[vaugahn]

Damage wasn't touched on the launchers so it's still as overperforming as ever.

Loosing one slot to A mutator does not lower the damage so dramatically that you wont be clearing rooms.

 

The problem with the launcher is their killing power and not the ammo efficientcy because this ammo eficientcy exist in every low fire rate weapon.

Why do we not hear cries of nerfing all other low fire rate weapons that never run out of ammo? Because they dont one-shot-kill groups of enemies.

 

This ammo thing has been looked at wrong from the start.

 

Honestly, I still am a strong advocate for the infinite ammo-finite magazine solution.

 

But if they want to leave ammo in, then this kind of balancing has to be done for all weapons. You hit the nail on the head right there, the reason launchers have to have less ammo is because they can kill whole groups of enemies at a time. The more enemies you can kill with a single shot, the less ammo you should have.

[NeverJeffer]

Honestly, I still am a strong advocate for the infinite ammo-finite magazine solution.

 

But if they want to leave ammo in, then this kind of balancing has to be done for all weapons. You hit the nail on the head right there, the reason launchers have to have less ammo is because they can kill whole groups of enemies at a time. The more enemies you can kill with a single shot, the less ammo you should have.

Amprex, Phage, Bows, Quantis, I could continue listing weapons that can kill groups fairly easily, should all these weapons have less ammo by default?  No probably not because they all have other drawbacks and strengths, none of which include being able to kill yourself with btw.

[Kaboinglefop]

in all honesty it was a terrible fix... Rockets are now only useful in defense, and snipers are still not better than bows... what good has come of it, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING~!! What Bad has come of it, Quite a lot...

idk dude the ability to mob-clear with 1 shot is very helpful no matter where you go just pick your shots

[vaugahn]

Amprex, Phage, Bows, Quantis, I could continue listing weapons that can kill groups fairly easily, should all these weapons have less ammo by default?  No probably not because they all have other drawbacks and strengths, none of which include being able to kill yourself with btw.

 

Yes, they all should. DE needs to look at the average kills-per-shot of all weapons, and then balance accordingly. 

 

And you can totally kill yourself with a bow. Beyond that, self damage isn't a good balance factor because of how easily avoidable it is.

[Mak_Gohae]

Honestly, I still am a strong advocate for the infinite ammo-finite magazine solution.

 

But if they want to leave ammo in, then this kind of balancing has to be done for all weapons. You hit the nail on the head right there, the reason launchers have to have less ammo is because they can kill whole groups of enemies at a time. The more enemies you can kill with a single shot, the less ammo you should have.

 

I wasnt advocating for less ammo my point is all about kill potential. Less ammo doesnt stop the killing potential if you happen to have the right mod and carry ammo boxes. This change only effects people withou the ammo mutator mod or the ability to continuously pump out ammo boxes.

 

Im fine if they rebalance ALL weapons, hitting one weapon type while other that have the same "problem" still exist out there is just goofy.

I was here back when you needed ammo boxes for all top level missions and it was fine back then because it affected all weapons instead of a few.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I agree. DE is finally adding balance to the game and I like it! Although I think some things still need tweaking (like the now too low ammo pool on launchers), what they did was definitely a step in the right direction (better too low than too high in my opinion, now these weapons have a skill ceiling). As long as they stop listening to QQ players and listen to those who make well thought out, sound arguments for or against buffs or nerfs, I think DE will be better off.

 

I hope to see Ammo 2.0 next, honestly. That should bring in a good wave of changes to how weapons are used before the buffs and nerfs roll in.

If they doubled the current ammo then it would be perfect (40 for launchers and 60 for angstrum).