Coptering Discussed In Depth (Like Really In Depth) And Arguments On Why It Needs To Change.

[Aggh]

Well, DE said that it's not going anywhere. It's sort of in a state of "limbo" right now, where it's recognized by the devs but still an exploit.

Exploits by definition are design flaws that allow people to play the game in a manner unintended by the developer.  DE actually did try and nerf it ages ago in cbt and reversed it within days.  It is no longer something that the devs do not intend for players to use so it can't really be considered an exploit.  The only thing DE has said they'd like to change is how it looks (ex clean up the derpy animations).

Edited February 26, 2015 by Aggh

[Tr1ples1xer]

Such a poll exists:

 

May I direct you here

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386267-january-16th-community-hot-topics/

 

End all be all: 60% of players want coptering changed in some way.

Where do you get 60 % ? lol

 

More like 55% want to keep it and 28% dont.

 

There is no 5 answers possible, its either yes or no in my poll, I even put change instead of remove this way if you only want a small fix you can vote nay, and still people overwelmingly want it in. When are you gonna see the light ?

 

Coptering is here to stay, approved by devs and by players.

[Aspari]

Where do you get 60 % ? lol

 

More like 55% want to keep it and 28% dont.

[snipped]

Coptering is here to stay, approved by devs and by players.

Try adding up the votes again. 

 

Of the total forum votes at the time of the poll 973 votes voted for no change, 337 votes said yes to change but specified their opinions, 683 voted yes for complete removal of the acceleration of sliding, sliding, and wall-fling (catapulting) as well as improvements to sprinting, 322 votes had no opinion at all, and 59 votes had a different response from just a yes or a no.

 

If you want to compare concrete yeses to concrete nos you have 1030 yes (Outright removal is still a change), 973 votes said no. Between the two concrete yeses and nos that's 50/50. 

 

That's also completely non-representative of the community as a whole. Some people who go to the forums never voted, myself included, and a lot of Warframe players don't go on the forums. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by Aspari

[Tr1ples1xer]

Try adding up the votes again. 

 

Of the total forum votes at the time of the poll 973 votes voted for no change, 337 votes said yes to change but specified their opinions, 683 voted yes for complete removal of the acceleration of sliding, sliding, and wall-fling (catapulting) as well as improvements to sprinting, 322 votes had no opinion at all, and 59 votes had a different response from just a yes or a no.

 

If you want to compare concrete yeses to concrete nos you have 1030 yes (Outright removal is still a change), 973 votes said no. Between the two concrete yeses and nos that's 50/50. 

 

That's also completely non-representative of the community as a whole. Some people who go to the forums never voted, myself included, and a lot of Warframe players don't go on the forums. 

Still thats not 60% against coptering... and that poll is about sliding and vaulting and coptering, mine is only about coptering and there is no grey zone, either you like or you don't. My poll is on the Warframe subreddit where Warframe players go, its not the whole polayer base but it still relevant, geez you guys are stubborn.

[Aspari]

Still thats not 60% against coptering... and that poll is about sliding and vaulting and coptering, mine is only about coptering and there is no grey zone, either you like or you don't. My poll is on the Warframe subreddit where Warframe players go, its not the whole polayer base but it still relevant, geez you guys are stubborn.

I really don't care about the 60%. His math was wrong and so was yours. The yes votes are still inclusive to coptering because the choice has a union of three different inputs.

 

You poll is not valid because it's not constructed properly. "Either you like or you don't" doesn't work in statistics. I'm also not telling you that the Warframe subreddit votes are not relevant. They are relevant. It's not enough and I sometimes question the integrity of reddit. I'm not being stubborn. What I'm saying is that your poll is both invalid and completely unnecessary. 

 

There's really nothing to talk about anymore here. The opinion is split and you cannot use the phrase "Coptering is here to stay, approved devs and the players" without being wrong. There's so much that statement doesn't account for.

 

I respect your tastes in video games and video game mechanics. I am not attacking your character in any way. I'll say that you're the first person and probably the only person I've ever known of that plays and stays with a third person shooter/hack 'n slash/ stealth hybrid for a community metagame facet that's a result of broken coding on melee weapons. 

 

 

Coptering never gets old, coptering is the reason many of us play the game, coptering is a unique move that is incredibly useful to maneuver around everywhere not just go fast in a straight line.

 

Removing coptering would be the worst thing to ever happen to this game but I feel it is already too late, parkour 2.0 ? don't like the sound of that :(

 

 

I honestly don't know how to feel about that. If DE squashed the community's metagame by restructuring the foundation of mobility and level design to what it was supposed to be from the very beginning or for a completely new vision I fear it'll break your heart. It had broken the hearts of a lot of GunZ: The Duel players when their metagaming facets (K-Style, D-Style, H-Style, Insta, other unintended bugs and glitches that became game mechanics) was completely nonexistent in GunZ 2 and replaced with a much better melee system. Despite that game's developer putting in a far superior melee system than the first game had and eliminating every known bug in the second game, the veterans who were so enamored by their metagame wouldn't give it a chance or couldn't get over themselves. Only new players or core gamers stick around GunZ 2. The difference between GunZ and Warframe? Warframe has a good and unpolished foundation and can still be fixed and improved in the areas it needs it as well as being eligible for expansion. GunZ: The Duel didn't have anything at all going for it and its developer abandoned the game. What's a playerbase to do with a game that's by many accounts pretty bad? Exploit everything. Offer a new and well thought-out system to replace the bad one and eliminate the metagame that alienated non-conformers? Instant turn-off for them, a potential selling point for new players and non-conformers of old. 

[ThePresident777]

DE heard this thread.  Anyone who hates coptoring should do the Pheonix Tac Alert for the Tempo Royal stance.

[akira_him]

Actually DE used Coptering in tonbo's video

and as for the poll, want some change doesn't necessary means nerf the thing

[Aggh]

Try adding up the votes again. 

 

Of the total forum votes at the time of the poll 973 votes voted for no change, 337 votes said yes to change but specified their opinions, 683 voted yes for complete removal of the acceleration of sliding, sliding, and wall-fling (catapulting) as well as improvements to sprinting, 322 votes had no opinion at all, and 59 votes had a different response from just a yes or a no.

 

If you want to compare concrete yeses to concrete nos you have 1030 yes (Outright removal is still a change), 973 votes said no. Between the two concrete yeses and nos that's 50/50. 

 

That's also completely non-representative of the community as a whole. Some people who go to the forums never voted, myself included, and a lot of Warframe players don't go on the forums. 

If you actually read through the discussion, most people who wanted it changed wanted the animations/hitboxes cleaned up and for it to be more consistent across weapons so people aren't "forced" to use specific weapons to traverse the map efficiently.  Reading this as people who want coptering removed is a major stretch.  The vast majority of people are still in favor of coptering in some form.

 

It's also worth noting that many people who would like to see coptering removed would only like to see it done if parkour 2.0 is actually good enough to make up for it.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Aggh

[Aure7]

It's also worth noting that many people who would like to see coptering removed would only like to see it done if parkour 2.0 is actually good enough to make up for it.

 

That's right. Even I am one of those people even though majority of forum users seem to come up in my threads and start arguing quite aggressively against me without realizing this.

[Vanadium]

Personally, I'm more for the Half-Life Long jump:

 

 

Basically, each frame has small built in boosters normally used for directional control when suddenly exposed to zero-gravity environments, but can also be used to make a long jump in normal-G. Each frame has its own "strength" in this area in relation to its weight and abilities.

 

This is also how I imagine Excalibur and Rhino being able to do their dash attacks.

 

Mostly, I just think the "copering" aspect of Warframe needs to be removed from melee weapons and built into the frames themselves.

 

So I'd tier it like this:

 

Best: Excalibur (has no "greeble", uses boosts all the time), Zephyr (she's a bird, obvious)

Strong: Ash (Excal, but with armor), Ember (fire-jets), Hydroid (water jets), Loki (gotta go fast, and his helmets all look like jets), Mag (magnetic self-propulsion, I dunno), Nyx (same as Excal, but with less boost)

Middle: Everyone else except Frost, Rhino, Saryn, and Trin

Weak: Frost, Rhino, Saryn, Trinity. They're each tanky or have a ton of stuff weighing them down.

 

I'm just tired of the goofiness of coptering and want something more immersive.

[Aspari]

Personally, I'm more for the Half-Life Long jump:

 

 

Basically, each frame has small built in boosters normally used for directional control when suddenly exposed to zero-gravity environments, but can also be used to make a long jump in normal-G. Each frame has its own "strength" in this area in relation to its weight and abilities.

 

This is also how I imagine Excalibur and Rhino being able to do their dash attacks.

 

Mostly, I just think the "copering" aspect of Warframe needs to be removed from melee weapons and built into the frames themselves.

 

So I'd tier it like this:

 

Best: Excalibur (has no "greeble", uses boosts all the time), Zephyr (she's a bird, obvious)

Strong: Ash (Excal, but with armor), Ember (fire-jets), Hydroid (water jets), Loki (gotta go fast, and his helmets all look like jets), Mag (magnetic self-propulsion, I dunno), Nyx (same as Excal, but with less boost)

Middle: Everyone else except Frost, Rhino, Saryn, and Trin

Weak: Frost, Rhino, Saryn, Trinity. They're each tanky or have a ton of stuff weighing them down.

 

I'm just tired of the goofiness of coptering and want something more immersive.

This, please. 

[(PSN)gino1313]

Perhaps the devs could change it so in pvp coptering behaves differently than in pve.

 

This pvp vs pve idea is something that many games need in my opinion, and is one of the things that dragged destiny down and is starting to drag this one down. Destiny had all the same mechanics in pvp and pve yet they balanced things to pvp. In doing this, the pve abilities became so bad in some cases that people deleted their characters.

 

Warframe is a completely different animal. Coptering is a movement ability in a movement heavy game. Rhino, while tanky, is able to move faster than any other frame with proper modding and helmets. But a frame such as zephyr, which is supposed to be a fast and agile frame, is only in the mid tier for sprint speeds. Coppering is a balance, just as swimming is. You can use a high skill maneuver like a jump swim copter and bypass an entire puzzle, or get to another teams side faster, but done improperly can kill you. The difference being, in pvp you gain an advantage, but in pve, you just get a mod or too. With pvp 2.0 coming, this is the time to segregate pvp and pve, to make all of warframe fait in its own respect.

[Ryjeon]

wow, that's why you play? i'm depressed for you.

 

That's a really disrespectful way to to have a discussion with someone with a different opinion. There are more dimensions and scenarios to this game then just rushing around. Coptering has many uses in combat and mid-air control. It's just one element of a wider mobility repertoire. I've played this game for two years and that freedom to discover, fine-tune and utilize the variety of momentum enhancing techniques is what keeps me engaged in this game. I'm not completely adverse to the elements of that freedom changing form. But I like that currently it is easy to learn and difficult to master.

 

So when I say Coptering is why I have fun in this game it is that freedom I am referring to as an effect of my perspective as a primarily melee oriented player. I play the game in the face of enemies. So I have learned to maximise my mobility speed and precision in order to quickly travel to and dispatch multiple enemies in interesting ways while constantly preserving my sliding momentum so that I can stay safe. I use copter to fight not to rush. Though when an ally falls in a survival trying to race the timer to get to him is still fun. Coptering is a precious asset in those scenarios.

 

Because my approach is different my perspective on this subject is different. Please respect my perspective. It would be extremely condescending for me to feel sorry for your perspective.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Ryjeon

[ThePresident777]

Speed as a trade off would be a boring tired old industry convention, like D&D.  Not extreme, but, boring instead.

[Aspari]

That's a really disrespectful way to to have a discussion with someone with a different opinion. There are more dimensions and scenarios to this game then just rushing around. Coptering has many uses in combat and mid-air control. It's just one element of a wider mobility repertoire. I've played this game for two years and that freedom to discover, fine-tune and utilize the variety of momentum enhancing techniques is what keeps me engaged in this game. I'm not completely adverse to the elements of that freedom changing form. But I like that currently it is easy to learn and difficult to master.

 

So when I say Coptering is why I have fun in this game it is that freedom I am referring to as an effect of my perspective as a primarily melee oriented player. I play the game in the face of enemies. So I have learned to maximise my mobility speed and precision in order to quickly travel to and dispatch multiple enemies in interesting ways while constantly preserving my sliding momentum so that I can stay safe. I use copter to fight not to rush. Though when an ally falls in a survival trying to race the timer to get to him is still fun. Coptering is a precious asset in those scenarios.

 

Because my approach is different my perspective on this subject is different. Please respect my perspective. It would be extremely condescending for me to feel sorry for your perspective.

Bearing in mind the reasons you like and have fun with coptering, let me ask you this:

 

Why does it have to specifically be coptering and not something that visually and thematically makes sense?

[ThePresident777]

The proposed replacements are slow and clunky, less mobile.

[Ryjeon]

Bearing in mind the reasons you like and have fun with coptering, let me ask you this:

 

Why does it have to specifically be coptering and not something that visually and thematically makes sense?

 

As I said I'm not opposed to elements of the movement system changing.  I will adjust and adapt and be happy so long as mechanically the overall goal of being able to flow from combat scenario to scenario is intact. I think it's amazing how many different maneuvers can be produced via the context and timing of a few button presses: namely Sprint / Crouch / Jump / Melee and occasionally Aim/Block. I find this very dynamic and ingenious. But if changes reduce the choices or lower the reactivity of my capabilities as a melee-oriented player I may find that satisfaction troubled.

 

But I am optimistic that any changes will be interesting and that DE does have that overall goal of flowing combat in mind. So while I may be satisfied now, and you may not be, I can conceive that adjusting the system in the hopes of finding new experiences that satisfy each of our mobility aspirations is a worthwhile and rational endeavor in the evolution of Warframe.

 

As a note it is not so much the Copter speed ability I am personally protective of. It is more so the slide-momentum mechanic which Coptering is built on. Among my core techniques is that of constantly leaping into a slide while casting my abilities so that I am never vulnerable due to being stationary. I harbor a fear that adjustments made to Coptering would have far-reaching consequences to these other sort of techniques which I employ. I have a deep appreciation of this skating technique and find it gives an extra sense of dimension to the combat.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Vanadium]

The proposed replacements are slow and clunky, less mobile.

And coptering looks goofy and unrefined, and breaks immersion. That's our stance. We're just looking for a middle-ground.

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

Just giving my perspective: 

- When people use the wrong gear and try to copter, I think it's pretty funny to watch. 

- Coptering is an alternative to the sprint jump roll repeat. Both get repetitive. Nice to have options IMO. 

- Coptering can be a nice alternative or helper to wall running. For my frames that need to work out more, it can make some places accessible that before would have taken mod adjustments. 

- Movement abilities and coptering are both options. I like options. I don't always bring zorens, but if I do, great to know I have the choice of coptering or using wormhole, or even coptering through my wormhole. 

 

I guess I haven't been active on the forums for long enough to even realize there was a coptering debate. Kinda sad now to know that some see coptering as being bad or negating other abilities when I have always felt they work together in such harmony. 

 

Not opposed to making it flow better with the other movements tho. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by (PS4)Bowjangelz

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

 

Changes to coptering should only be done if sprint speeds, stamina consumtion and parkour get improved...

The whole thing in a nutshell. Never before have I seen a ninja that runs so slowly, tires so quickly, attacks so slowly, behaves so un-ninja-like until I came to Warframe. This is why I do not see these as ninja whatsoever - these are space warriors, that's all.

Edited February 27, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Lakais]

For me, coptering just breaks the game, aesthetically. Here we are, four space-badasses about to drop some genocidal pain on the enemy. And two of these just decided to turn into hovercrafts and spin away with the animations going all over the place. Like some epileptic ballerina during a skydive. 

 

Coptering simply has no place in the game ever since air-melee attacks were implemented. Secondly, coptering isn't THAT effective. My Excal with maxed out Rush can keep up with most everyone. And I don't look ridiculous. 

 

But in the end. I can choose not to use copter as a crutch and thus feel superior to the peasants that do. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Lakais

[ThePresident777]

Why does there have to be a middle ground between fast+fluid+agile movement and not (goofy and unrefined, and breaks immersion)?  Middle ground doesn't satisfy any purpose.  It's short of any goal and purpose by definition.

Edited February 27, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Basilisk1991]

I'm going to say that Conclaves can look ridiculous with all the rhinos spinning through the air like spastics banging into one another, if we had batter animations I would probably find it more tolerable. You also made a good point about melee weapons not being balanced around the "mechanic" like they are in TF2.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Basilisk1991

[Aure7]

I'm going to say that Conclaves can look ridiculous with all the rhinos spinning through the air like spastics banging into one another, if we had batter animations I would probably find it more tolerable. You also made a good point about melee weapons not being balanced around the "mechanic" like they are in TF2.

exactly. With conclaves this issue is worse than ever but I am out of steam and lost all hope of ever seeing any changes to it...

[(PSN)V3RM1THRAX]

I personally like it and don't want to see it changed :p