Oh Crap, Ran Out Of Ammo

[Dasmir]

This is my entire problem with this change. Why are launcher users forced to moderate their spammy tendencies but Boltor Prime users, Soma users, etc can spam all they want? Guess I should also mention that once your grenade/rockets stop oneshotting enemies, you start to feel the pressure even more. 

 

Ammo mutation mod.

 

 

i already said that and i say it again:

ammo mutation is a band-aid made of salt

 

Dam why rifles need punch trought mods to have the AoE precense of a nuker ? Punch trought is a is a band-aid made of salt

 

See how it works ?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Dasmir

[SquirmyBurrito]

Ammo mutation mod.

 

 

 

Dam why rifles need punch trought mods to have the AoE precense of a nuker ? Punch trought is a is a band-aid made of salt

 

See how it works ?

 

I refuse to use an ammo mutation mod just so I can play with my primary weapon. It is bad enough that Serration and Split Chamber have a guaranteed spot in every single build of mine, I don't need ANOTHER required mod.

 

You don't need to put punch-through on rifles for them to be usable. You can use your Soma all you want without punch-through. Launchers... not so much.

[SoulEchelon]

This is my entire problem with this change. Why are launcher users forced to moderate their spammy tendencies but Boltor Prime users, Soma users, etc can spam all they want? Guess I should also mention that once your grenade/rockets stop oneshotting enemies, you start to feel the pressure even more. 

 

Because neither of those guns have an AOE that can hit passed 10k per enemy. At their current ammo I'm doing far, far better than I would using my Boltor.

 

And I've ran out of boltor prime bullets many times; specifically when fighting certain tanky bosses like Vay Hek. I haven't used soma in forever, though.

 

 

I refuse to use an ammo mutation mod just so I can play with my primary weapon. It is bad enough that Serration and Split Chamber have a guaranteed spot in every single build of mine, I don't need ANOTHER required mod.

 

You don't need to put punch-through on rifles for them to be usable. You can use your Soma all you want without punch-through. Launchers... not so much.

 

You don't need ammo mutation unless you're going to spam it. How many damned times must that be stated? I even posted a video of someone making a hilariously powerful Penta build that does NOT use ammo mutation. He states specifically that simply gathering ammo like everyone else who uses other weapons do when they run out of ammo is perfectly viable in the same exact missions launchers are so popular in.

[Acidtrees]

Just for fun I ran a rescue and a capture with only a fully potato'd Angstrum today. I tried to play as conservatively and cautious as possible. Both missions were pretty short, but I ran out of ammo 3 times. To be fair though ammo would eventually drop and I could get to the end in both missions.

 

IMO with a max'd out gun and super conservative play you should be able to finish any non-endless mission without running out of ammo. The launchers are pretty close to that, but they definitely need a tiny buff to ammo capacity to get to that point.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Acidtrees

[SquirmyBurrito]

Because neither of those guns have an AOE that can hit passed 10k per enemy. At their current ammo I'm doing far, far better than I would using my Boltor.

 

And I've ran out of boltor prime bullets many times; specifically when fighting certain tanky bosses like Vay Hek. I haven't used soma in forever, though.

 

 

 

You don't need ammo mutation unless you're going to spam it. How many damned times must that be stated? I even posted a video of someone making a hilariously powerful Penta build that does NOT use ammo mutation. He states specifically that simply gathering ammo like everyone else who uses other weapons do when they run out of ammo is perfectly viable in the same exact missions launchers are so popular in.

 

And having an AoE means a player shouldn't be able to use their weapon whenever they feel like it? There is something wrong with your Boltor Prime build. The Boltor Prime also has a higher DPS than the Ogris

 

You ran out of ammo with your BP while fighting Vay Hek and presumably didn't run out of ammo while using an Ogris post nerf? Is that what you're saying?

 

I clearly stated that my issue was with the fact that Launcher users are not allowed to do the very thing that users of almost every other weapon type are currently allowed to do. That video featured a guy using a penta in missions where he was still capable of oneshotting the enemies and he even stated that he'd had to use ammo restores on occasion. So for a player that didn't have a 'hilariously powerful' build, didn't have restores, and either didn't want to/didn't have the option to use a mutator mod they'd be screwed as running out of the rarest ammo drop in the game isn't exactly hard to do. Especially when you require 2+ shots per cluster of enemies. Most other weapons either have huge ammo reserves and a common ammo type or do so much damage per shot that they don't have to worry about needing more than oneshot to kill an enemy+they have some other form of utility. Any weapon that this doesn't apply to is either running out of ammo quickly (Wraith Twin Vipers) or is widely considered terrible anyway (sniper rifles).

[SoulEchelon]

And having an AoE means a player shouldn't be able to use their weapon whenever they feel like it?

 

No, having a rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and grenades in general means a player shouldn't be able to whip it out and spam them into oblivion. Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that infinite ammo for a weapon that can kill 10+ enemies in one shot is balanced? When the only comparison is the warframes' abilities themselves? When literally every other medium in existence says otherwise?

 

And my Boltor isn't forma'd. In fact none of my weapons are sans my Ignis.

[SquirmyBurrito]

No, having a rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and grenades in general means a player shouldn't be able to whip it out and spam them into oblivion. Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that infinite ammo for a weapon that can kill 10+ enemies in one shot is balanced? When the only comparison is the warframes' abilities themselves? When literally every other medium in existence says otherwise?

 

And my Boltor isn't forma'd. In fact none of my weapons are sans my Ignis.

 

Why shouldn't they be able to use their primary weapon whenever they want?

 

Edit: If you feel launchers should only be used sparingly, they (the launchers) need to be given their own weapon slot. 

Edited August 22, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SoulEchelon]

Why shouldn't they be able to use their primary weapon whenever they want?

 

Edit: If you feel launchers should only be used sparingly, they (the launchers) need to be given their own weapon slot. 

 

Uh, THEY CAN.

 

It's called.

 

Leaving your cubby hole.

 

Or your tower.

 

Or whatever area that makes enemies ignore you.

 

And pick up some ammo that drops from the hundreds of enemies you just exploded.

 

If you want them to have their own slot, then they will get even less ammo capacity than they do currently.

Edited August 22, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[DarthRevan84]

In rail conflicts, it effectively negates carrying them at all. WAY too low.

Thats...not a bad thing. Explosive weapons needed to be removed from PvP period. This effectivly removes them from PvP and Balances them for PvE +1 DE.

[LukeAura]

They're AoE because they're meant to be used on multi target clusters or potentially aimed precisely for high single target damage on heavy units. It does not matter what the players of them expect to do with them, it is their role in the arsenal that's important. Not every weapon/type of weapons should be meant to be 'mained'. And even without being able to main them, they still hold a lot of value any ways. 

 

 

Why shouldn't they be able to use their primary weapon whenever they want?

 

Classified as Primary really doesn't say much about usability of weapons. It's just a loadout limiter. Grakata has poor ammo efficiency, which makes it difficult to use without ammo mutation, it'll still drain quickly of ammo even with its increased cap. It can't be used whenever one wants, it has to be managed or it will burn out quickly, so it should be demoted to secondary yes? And you never have to stop using the Akvasto even with their smaller reserve because of their generally well balanced stats and high power, should they become primaries then?  If you primarily use melee does that make it your primary? And then what does that make your primary and secondary? Secondary and tertiary weapons? 

Primaries are guns that we wield with two hands.  
Secondaries are guns we wield with one hand, or dual-wield.
Melee are physical weapons. 
That's really it. 
 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Uh, THEY CAN.

 

It's called.

 

Leaving your cubby hole.

 

Or your tower.

 

Or whatever area that makes enemies ignore you.

 

And pick up some ammo that drops from the hundreds of enemies you just exploded.

 

If you want them to have their own slot, then they will get even less ammo capacity than they do currently.

 

No, as you have been constantly pointing out they can only if they don't spam. Meaning they can't actually use their primary weapon whenever they want. They're forced to play more conservatively. 

 

>Assuming I am hiding somewhere with a launcher.

>Assuming the launcher user is playing an endless mission type.

>Forgetting just how rare sniper ammo is.

>Assuming I want launchers to get their own slot.

>Missing my point entirely.

 

They're AoE because they're meant to be used on multi target clusters or potentially aimed precisely for high single target damage on heavy units. It does not matter what the players of them expect to do with them, it is their role in the arsenal that's important. Not every weapon/type of weapons should be meant to be 'mained'. And even without being able to main them, they still hold a lot of value any ways. 

 

 

 

Classified as Primary really doesn't say much about usability of weapons. It's just a loadout limiter. Grakata has poor ammo efficiency, which makes it difficult to use without ammo mutation, it'll still drain quickly of ammo even with its increased cap. It can't be used whenever one wants, it has to be managed or it will burn out quickly, so it should be demoted to secondary yes? And you never have to stop using the Akvasto even with their smaller reserve because of their generally well balanced stats and high power, should they become primaries then?  If you primarily use melee does that make it your primary? And then what does that make your primary and secondary? Secondary and tertiary weapons? 

Primaries are guns that we wield with two hands.  

Secondaries are guns we wield with one hand, or dual-wield.

Melee are physical weapons. 

That's really it. 

 

What primary weapon (prior to this ammo nerf) wasn't meant to be mained? 

 

The Grakata is also constantly being brought up as needing a buff.

>Implying I am of the opinion that secondaries shouldn't be usable as primaries.

 

With the sword alone thing DE made their intention that every weapon be usable as a main weapon rather obvious. But now the launchers don't really fill that role without either playing conservatively, using a mutator mod, or wasting ammo restores.

[Sebastianx]

Oh my, now you won't be able to just sit in one place and spam left click, you actually NEED to run and grab that ammo box like you would with any other weapons...Ohhh the pain, the suffering, why oh why would you have to endure such misery?

[SoulEchelon]

No, as you have been constantly pointing out they can only if they don't spam. Meaning they can't actually use their primary weapon whenever they want. They're forced to play more conservatively.

 

Thank you. Now we agree: Players now need to play more conservatively when using launcher style weapons. Just like every other video game in existence. What's funny, is that you still don't need to play THAT conservatively, since ammo drops = 1/2 of your current ammo capacity. If you actually stay mobile, like you should be in Warframe, you'll have zero problems unless you're using your launcher at the absolute dumbest moments - like when there's only one or two trash mobs nearby. Wait until there's more, or Idunno, USE YOUR OTHER WEAPONS to kill the small fry that aren't bunched up.

 

This is the epitome of common sense. The fact that you're seriously advocating this is blowing my mind. Infinite ammo rocket launchers...that don't even need to be reloaded with every shot, either. Not even Serious Sam games let you do that.

[Ensign_Zero]

So the game added an Achilles' heel to explosive weapons, made it so you would have to scavenge to maintain a weapon with ridiculous damage and great range, and added a layer of difficulty (and immersion) to endless defense missions? Here's my take:

1) You have a secondary, use it.

2) Use rifles.

3) Add an ammo mutation mod, sacrifice some of that firepower for efficiency. When you're doing >5000 damage to every single enemy, every single blast, you could sacrifice at least one mod for your ammo pool.

Guess what, after a month or so people will forget that this nerf ever happened and either change their mods, or change their loadouts.

[Acidtrees]

Thank you. Now we agree: Players now need to play more conservatively when using launcher style weapons. Just like every other video game in existence. What's funny, is that you still don't need to play THAT conservatively, since ammo drops = 1/2 of your current ammo capacity. If you actually stay mobile, like you should be in Warframe, you'll have zero problems unless you're using your launcher at the absolute dumbest moments - like when there's only one or two trash mobs nearby. Wait until there's more, or Idunno, USE YOUR OTHER WEAPONS to kill the small fry that aren't bunched up.

 

This is the epitome of common sense. The fact that you're seriously advocating this is blowing my mind. Infinite ammo rocket launchers...that don't even need to be reloaded with every shot, either. Not even Serious Sam games let you do that.

 

Eh, I don't see why launchers need to be conservative but other guns don't. In other video games you generally don't carry around 500 spare bullets either. But I don't think it would make the game more enjoyable to force people to constantly worry about ammo even with 90% accuracy.

 

And it's not a firepower thing, you can clear a room with launchers sure, but you can do that with Boltor Prime or Soma too just as easily. So I don't understand why ONLY launchers should be conservative.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Thank you. Now we agree: Players now need to play more conservatively when using launcher style weapons. Just like every other video game in existence. What's funny, is that you still don't need to play THAT conservatively, since ammo drops = 1/2 of your current ammo capacity. If you actually stay mobile, like you should be in Warframe, you'll have zero problems unless you're using your launcher at the absolute dumbest moments - like when there's only one or two trash mobs nearby. Wait until there's more, or Idunno, USE YOUR OTHER WEAPONS to kill the small fry that aren't bunched up.

 

This is the epitome of common sense. The fact that you're seriously advocating this is blowing my mind. Infinite ammo rocket launchers...that don't even need to be reloaded with every shot, either. Not even Serious Sam games let you do that.

 

How much of your total ammo one drop equates to doesn't really matter. What matters is how often ammo drops and how much ammo you're going through between drops. It gets even worse if you decide you wanted to take an Ogris/Penta AND an Angstrum into the same mission.

 

What happens if that player wanted to only use (or maximize xp for) their Ogris or only use their Angstrum and didn't bring any other weapons? When you run out you're #*($%%@. And sometimes there are only a few enemies, and you're forced to decide between running away or killing them and risking them not dropping any ammo.

 

I didn't say S#&$ about infinite ammo, do not put words in my mouth. The Ogris doesn't need to be reloaded with every shot, but it does require charging. The penta has a grenade limit and a rather small magazine. And the Angstrum is capable of using its entire magazine in one shot on top of needing to be charged.

 

Oh my, now you won't be able to just sit in one place and spam left click, you actually NEED to run and grab that ammo box like you would with any other weapons...Ohhh the pain, the suffering, why oh why would you have to endure such misery?

 

Sitting in one place killing things is just as common in the other high powered non-launcher weapons as it was in launchers.

 

So the game added an Achilles' heel to explosive weapons, made it so you would have to scavenge to maintain a weapon with ridiculous damage and great range, and added a layer of difficulty (and immersion) to endless defense missions? Here's my take:

1) You have a secondary, use it.

2) Use rifles.

3) Add an ammo mutation mod, sacrifice some of that firepower for efficiency. When you're doing >5000 damage to every single enemy, every single blast, you could sacrifice at least one mod for your ammo pool.

Guess what, after a month or so people will forget that this nerf ever happened and either change their mods, or change their loadouts.

 

They already had an achilles' heel, that being that you could kill yourself with it. Boltor Prime has ridiculous damage and great range but far better ammo economy. The ammo buff doesn't do anything to add to immersion and all it really does is make it impossible to get passed a certain point in defense missions without ammo restores, weapon switching, or a mutator mod.

 

1. Not everyone brings a secondary with them.

2. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use the weapon they want?

3. No. Launcher users should not be forced to use a mutator mod. 

 

No they wont. This community has pretty far reaching memory. I still see people bring up the stamina nerfs.

 

 

Eh, I don't see why launchers need to be conservative but other guns don't. In other video games you generally don't carry around 500 spare bullets either. But I don't think it would make the game more enjoyable to force people to constantly worry about ammo even with 90% accuracy.

 

And it's not a firepower thing, you can clear a room with launchers sure, but you can do that with Boltor Prime or Soma too just as easily. So I don't understand why ONLY launchers should be conservative.

 

^This. People keep saying 'but launchers' and completely ignoring the fact that launchers were not the only weapons that could slaughter rooms full of enemies with a press of a button.

[taiiat]

Also, this:

if only i could upvote this another 50 times.

 

 

that sums it up very well. the Launchers will wipe the floor long after lv45 Enemies, so they're in the right spot. now we reign in some other Weapons too, and we'll be getting into an even better spot.

[SoulEchelon]

Eh, I don't see why launchers need to be conservative but other guns don't. In other video games you generally don't carry around 500 spare bullets either. But I don't think it would make the game more enjoyable to force people to constantly worry about ammo even with 90% accuracy.

 

And it's not a firepower thing, you can clear a room with launchers sure, but you can do that with Boltor Prime or Soma too just as easily. So I don't understand why ONLY launchers should be conservative.

 

Nah, you can't. Not as easily, and you end up using alot more ammo.

 

The problem lies in the fact that most veterans nowadays have forma'd said weapons to hell and back. I, on the other hand, specifically did not. I normally don't like forma'ing weapons exactly for this reason. It ends up making you forget just how balancing works in this game when you've basically modded out all of the weaknesses in a weapon.

 

Max ranked, potato'd boltor prime is powerful yes. But nowhere near as powerful as a max ranked, potato'd Penta, Ogris, or even Angstrum. While certainly more viable in direct, one-on-one situations, it can't clear a room as fast as launcher weapons - especially when you use Penta. Penta nades can be lobbed right over a huge group of enemies and explode in mid air, killing them all. Or lobbed over obstacles Boltor can't shoot through. Or bounced off corners. It's extremely versatile, and extremely powerful. Without ANY forma, I was doing past 6k damage to huge groups of enemies, and I don't even have full Serration. I've already posted a video on the 2nd page showcasing just how immensely powerful this weapon can be. And you guys want it to still have infinite ammo?

 

 

How much of your total ammo one drop equates to doesn't really matter. What matters is how often ammo drops and how much ammo you're going through between drops. It gets even worse if you decide you wanted to take an Ogris/Penta AND an Angstrum into the same mission.

 

Nope. I did that last night. Even stated I did in an earlier post. Had absolutely zero problems keeping my ammo up, in both weapons. Why? How? I aimed for larger groups, and picked up ammo. Didn't even need to use ammo restores nor ammo mutation.

 

Try again.

 

 

if only i could upvote this another 50 times.

 

 

that sums it up very well. the Launchers will wipe the floor long after lv45 Enemies, so they're in the right spot. now we reign in some other Weapons too, and we'll be getting into an even better spot.

 

Agreed, there are still other balancing issues. People seem to think this is the one and only weapon balance DE is going to do ever. *rolls eyes*

Edited August 22, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[SquirmyBurrito]

Nope. I did that last night. Even stated I did in an earlier post. Had absolutely zero problems keeping my ammo up, in both weapons. Why? How? I aimed for larger groups, and picked up ammo. Didn't even need to use ammo restores nor ammo mutation.

 

Try again.

 

 

 

Agreed, there are still other balancing issues. People seem to think this is the one and only weapon balance DE is going to do ever. *rolls eyes*

 

You stated you did 10 waves of defense, on sechura, a mission that guarantees large volumes of enemies in groups. There are more mission types than just defense missions.

 

Its the overnerf that is out now that people are going to focus on.

 

The only people talking about infinite ammo are those who are advocating for the weapons to remain as is. That's an exaggeration on your part.

 

The BP has a higher DPS than the Ogris and Penta.

Edited August 22, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SoulEchelon]

You stated you did 10 waves of defense, on sechura, a mission that guarantees large volumes of enemies in groups. There are more mission types than just defense missions.

 

Its the overnerf that is out now that people are going to focus on.

 

I took the same setup to Earth to farm kubrow mods. Soloed a Corpus invasion on I believe it was Uranus. Then did a Phorid invasion solo; forgot which planet it was however.

 

I did the smart thing. Used my melee on single/small groups. Used my Penta/Angstrum on much larger ones. Obviously had no trouble with Phorid either. I used Ember during some missions, Saryn in others, and obviously Nekros while farming.

 

The fact of the matter is this: This change? It's here to stay. DE might tweak the numbers here and there, but NEVER will it be back to practically infinite ammo. Other weapons also have imbalances that should be looked at, too. Obviously, seeing as DE has been periodically looking through each and every piece of equipment/warframe the past few months, they won't be stopping with just the launcher ammo.

 

People complaining about this change either voice concerns how "every other weapon is better now" when it's obviously totally false, or they complain about having to change their style of play.

 

And to those people, I say: If your style of play was literally spamming rockets/grenades everywhere to the point where you need infinite ammo to continue to enjoy such a play style, then welp...Call me elitist, but you need to get good, and deal with it.

 

And with that, I'm outta here because this conversation is going nowhere fast.

[Pro3Display]

so everyone going from one extreme to another

ones mock that "oh noes launcher users finally have to walk"

others implies that not enough ammo drops from mobs

 

things are not THAT bad

ammo is rng though but it drops fine

damage is decent, problems starts if you cant oneshot, but it needs to be inspected if it is build's problem or very high level of mobs

even more of a problem that only small range of sidearms will save you on high levels if you are out of rockets/grenades

also most of them are boring

in other words it is a problem of a weapons being not being equally usefull - the problem that is there for ages

 

what people fail to communicate when comparing weapons is environment in which they use their weapons.

i presume if people were more clear they'd say that they easily go out of ammo when they face masses of mobs that cant be oneshot

also, imho, huge achilles heel of launchers (and also snipers) is rifle multishot mod that can't be on 100%

 

personally to kill ammo rng i'd get rid out of stupid differentiation of primary ammo and make the thing get ammo depending on weapon type

and finally get rid of useless ammo mutation. yes it's usefull, but it is as worth as Millhouse Manastorm in Hearthstone

 

edit: man @SoulEchelon, why make example on phorid? it super weak to fire and paper-thin in general

Edited August 22, 2014 by Pro3Display

[SquirmyBurrito]

I took the same setup to Earth to farm kubrow mods. Soloed a Corpus invasion on I believe it was Uranus. Then did a Phorid invasion solo; forgot which planet it was however.

 

I did the smart thing. Used my melee on single/small groups. Used my Penta/Angstrum on much larger ones. Obviously had no trouble with Phorid either. I used Ember during some missions, Saryn in others, and obviously Nekros while farming.

 

The fact of the matter is this: This change? It's here to stay. DE might tweak the numbers here and there, but NEVER will it be back to practically infinite ammo. Other weapons also have imbalances that should be looked at, too. Obviously, seeing as DE has been periodically looking through each and every piece of equipment/warframe the past few months, they won't be stopping with just the launcher ammo.

 

People complaining about this change either voice concerns how "every other weapon is better now" when it's obviously totally false, or they complain about having to change their style of play.

 

And to those people, I say: If your style of play was literally spamming rockets/grenades everywhere to the point where you need infinite ammo to continue to enjoy such a play style, then welp...Call me elitist, but you need to get good, and deal with it.

 

And with that, I'm outta here because this conversation is going nowhere fast.

 

What if I don't want to take a melee weapon with me? What if I want to use my tanky Valkyr? Or Loki?

I'm going to say this one last time, and after that I'm going to ignore you. I never said S#&$ about infinite ammo or anything about wanting DE to return Launchers to their former 500+ ammo pool. Are you unaware that there are numbers between 20 and 520?

 

Maybe they don't want to change their playstyle? And the BP is better. 

 

Maybe you need to pull your head out of your [you know] and understand that other players who play in different ways exist. You also need to understand that you are the only one talking about infinite ammo here. Take your strawman argument somewhere else, no one is asking for that.

 

It's going nowhere because you're strawman'ing us to a standstill. How about addressing our actual concerns?

[Redhux]

It is useless to argue against nerfers, they're blinded by their jealousy. Because it is nothing more than that.

 

Pitiful.

 

Ruinning the fun of others just by jealousy. Really lame.

[vaugahn]

It's going nowhere because you're strawman'ing us to a standstill. How about addressing our actual concerns?

 

The vast majority of people who disagree with the launcher changes are also guilty of that. You're one of the few I've seen not using the ridiculous "people love nerfs because they're jealous!" strawman.

 

Anyways, those are all good points. However, I think there should be some risk factor involved in taking a launcher, at least compared to a more normal weapon. You should be trading combat flexibility for massive AoE damage potential. They should still be usable as a main(there's a distinction between main and primary here) weapon though. I think doubling their available ammo would work nicely. 

[SoulEchelon]

What if I don't want to take a melee weapon with me? What if I want to use my tanky Valkyr? Or Loki?

 

You didn't read a damn thing that I said, did you? I even specifically told you which frames I took with that Penta/Angstrum build: Ember, Saryn, and Nekros. Only one of them could be considered "tanky", and she's not even close to the tankiness of Valkyr.

 

And don't throw that "strawman" routine at me. You always try to do that. Every time you're backed up against a wall, you begin ignoring obvious points and then spam "strawman!" everywhere like the hypocrite you've become over this asinine argument.

 

I've stated facts. I've stated direct as well as indirect experiences. I've posted information from an experienced third party to back up my claims, and all you can do is ignore it and then insult my intelligence. If it's going to come to that, then I'm officially done with this, and done with you. Go ahead and cry in the corner about how you can't spam rockets anymore and have a S#&$ fit like a snot nosed kid just like everyone else who can't adapt.