Altering Ember

[Trenggiling]

Hi thanks for reading!

 

 

Ember was once a tank caster who could get up in the enemies face and dish out the pain.
But DE said that her intended purpose was as a glass cannon.

 

=====Stats=====

Ember is relatively slow, and yet she needs to run around for her ultimate to work properly.
So think that it only feels right to buff her sprint speed from 1.0 to 1.2 or at least 1.1.
Other than that she is okay for a glass cannon.

 

=====Fireball=====

This skill should be Ember’s trademark, her signature move, her butter, and her bread.
But it’s pitifully low damage, and small blast radius makes it nigh worthless without the added damage from accelerant.
So instead of 150/275/300/400 damage it should deal 250/400/550/700 damage, and the blast radius should be buffed to 5 meters.
The damage drop off should be adjusted accordingly to the new range and damage numbers.
And the hitbox of the projectile itself should be enlarged to make it easier to land direct hits.

 

=====Accelerant=====

Accelerant is a great skill that helps reinforce the glass cannon ideal.
But one slight issue is that fire damage will mix to make other elements, so it can be hard to mod weapons for it.
This could be solved by giving accelerant the ability to amplify the damage of fire variants (gas, radiation, and blast) by 40/60/80/100% SWPS (less than half of the fire damage buff)

 

=====Fire Blast=====

Okay first of all the 75 energy cost has to go.
50 energy is far more reasonable considering what it does.
The duration should be buffed from 9/12/15/20 seconds to 6/14/22/30 seconds.
This should help Ember defend objectives a little better as she is running around burning things.
And it would be cool if the thickness of the ring was affected by power range.
So that the edge of the ring reaches farther and the safe spot in the center gets smaller.

 

=====World On Fire=====

As far as ultimates go this one has bad DPS, and as far as glass cannon ultimates go this one has really bad DPS.
There are two ways to fix this… either make it hit 3 enemies at once again, or improve its damage to 250/400/550/700 damage a tick.

 

 

Click Here for a full list of my threads.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Trenggiling

[Trenggiling]

If you have any preference for which Warframe I should look at next then please leave a request it in the comments below.

[CY13ERPUNK]

considering all the ridiculous reworks posted, OP's is actually quite reasonable and in-theme

 

+1 all around

 

personally i have never liked the 'press one button and run around' nature of world on fire and i would rework it into a long duration ability similar to mirage's mirror/eclipse, but ember would be given +10/20/30/40% ability power/energy efficiency/movspd/dmg resistance/energy regen, thusly her #4 would encourage her to spam fireballs/rings/accelerants all over the place, you could still have the aura dmg of WoF, but i would reduce/lower it, to make the power more interactive (the fx could still stay for the 'shiny')

Edited August 21, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK

[SoulEchelon]

I'm...in total agreement. Wow, this is a first when it comes to Ember rebalances, since most of the time people just scream "BRING BACK OVERHEAT" and that's about it.

 

I absolutely -love- my Ember, but yeah. She needs just another quick look at..

 

More speed, maybe a little more armor or a small health buff as well seeing as she needs to be in the thick of it to do the best damage.

 

Maybe strengthen her DoT effect in general.

 

I agree with Fireblast, however I think it should give 100% "on fire" proc as well for anyone coming into it; not just for the initial explosion. That'll bring her right back into the being the queen of Infested Defense.

 

WoF, I'm thinking its initial activation should hit -everything- in its radius. Then after that, it begins hitting 3 enemies at a time as you suggested. And, again, dat DoT needs some sort of buff.

 

Ember's one of my favorites, but she's still just a little underpowered compared to other caster frames, and I've yet to see anyone say otherwise. We're pretty much all in agreement.

Edited August 21, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[RealPandemonium]

The last thing we need is another series of these ridiculous "rework" threads.  Keep this stuff on your blog or something.  It's not feedback and is too sweeping to have any meaningful discussion; rather than address individual issues these threads suggest a whole slew of changes that are often arbitrary and not in harmony with the developers' vision for the frame.  

[Archistopheles]

The last thing we need is another series of these ridiculous "rework" threads.  Keep this stuff on your blog or something.  It's not feedback and is too sweeping to have any meaningful discussion; rather than address individual issues these threads suggest a whole slew of changes that are often arbitrary and not in harmony with the developers' vision for the frame.

Comments like this serve no purpose other to antagonize and belittle for the sake of antagonizing and belittling. If you have an issue with a suggestion, address the specifics you do not feel are improvements.

Here, I'll go first: Simply changing the number values of Ember's attacks will not fix the scaling problem she has in T3/4.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Archistopheles

[RealPandemonium]

I'll bite and say that Ember needs 4 to be a toggle and for 3 to have some effect that makes it worth equipping.  

[Archistopheles]

I'll bite and say that Ember needs 4 to be a toggle and for 3 to have some effect that makes it worth equipping.

Agreed. If you look at frames that scale well into T4, they're all known for the utility or damage amplification. Since the visual effect of the 'ring of fire' is impeding, perhaps if all enemies were blind inside, we could add both a CC, and a melee damage amp without over-scaling the ability itself.

[Trenggiling]

I'll bite and say that Ember needs 4 to be a toggle and for 3 to have some effect that makes it worth equipping.  

I disagree with making WoF a toggle.

The only reason to have a skill be a toggle (in my opinion) is if there is a reason (other than energy preservation) for it to be turned off before the skill ends.

But I can agree that her 3 needs something... more.

And none of Ember's skills are to terribly underwhelming with their mechanics (my opinion again) just the numbers.

[SoulEchelon]

I'm not sure about a toggle either. WoF has a relatively long wind up time, so having it become a toggle negates that weakness (Though admittedly, WoF itself is weak already so faster activation would certainly help it)

 

But if it's to become a toggle, it'll also have to become even weaker than it is currently, and specifically become more of a CC ability than a DoT one. Basically a moving Fireblast. I can see that actually....but I'm still not sure of a toggle.  She already has a ton of CC in various forms (especially Accelerant).

Edited August 21, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[Trenggiling]

The last thing we need is another series of these ridiculous "rework" threads.  Keep this stuff on your blog or something.  It's not feedback and is too sweeping to have any meaningful discussion; rather than address individual issues these threads suggest a whole slew of changes that are often arbitrary and not in harmony with the developers' vision for the frame.  

1: Not everyone has a blog, I certainly don't.

2: How the heck can you say that this isn't feedback?

3: Did you even read my thread? Practically the only things I suggested were number tweaks.

4: Not in harmony with the developers vision for the frame? How can it not be in harmony with the developers vision for the frame if I didn't change anything but numbers?

5: A whole slew of changes? Okay, thank you, what ever, try to actually read threads before you comment on them...

Edited August 21, 2014 by Trenggiling

[Archistopheles]

~Snip~

Posting back with anger does nothing but perpetuate the cycle. We've already moved past that post.

[RealPandemonium]

I disagree with making WoF a toggle.

The only reason to have a skill be a toggle (in my opinion) is if there is a reason (other than energy preservation) for it to be turned off before the skill ends.

The thing is, though, that all those abilities needed was to be able to cancel them early.  Making them into a toggle just made them overpowered, lowering their energy cost dramatically and making them super-flexible to the point of mindlessness.  

 

On the other hand, WoF is a supplemental DPS ability that isn't flexible enough to be worth using.  Its reliance on duration mods takes up too many slots and its nature as a timed buff causes much of the energy spent to be wasted while moving from encounter to encounter (which also makes recasting it awkward and unsatisfying.)  Making WoF a toggle (with an appropriate energy cost) would remove its duration dependence (freeing up mod slots for durability and other utility) while staying true to the purpose of the ability: extra DPS when you need it, at the cost of more energy usage.

 

 

I'm not sure about a toggle either. WoF has a relatively long wind up time, so having it become a toggle negates that weakness (Though admittedly, WoF itself is weak already so faster activation would certainly help it)

 

But if it's to become a toggle, it'll also have to become even weaker than it is currently, and specifically become more of a CC ability than a DoT one. Basically a moving Fireblast. I can see that actually....but I'm still not sure of a toggle.  She already has a ton of CC in various forms (especially Accelerant).

 

There should still be an animation for toggling on and off so that the player must think about when and where to activate/deactivate the ability (not as long as the current cast animation but not instant either.)

 

There is no need to make it weaker numbers-wise; just make the energy cost significant so that you can't just keep it on forever.  Making it a CC ability would not balance it either, but make it overpowered.  Have you seen Absorb and Sound Quake?  CC toggle abilities are ridiculous on-demand CC that costs no energy and trivializes gameplay.

Edited August 21, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[SoulEchelon]

The thing is, though, that all those abilities needed was to be able to cancel them early.  Making them into a toggle just made them overpowered, lowering their energy cost dramatically and making them super-flexible to the point of mindlessness.  

 

On the other hand, WoF is a supplemental DPS ability that isn't flexible enough to be worth using.  Its reliance on duration mods takes up too many slots and its nature as a timed buff causes much of the energy spent to be wasted while moving from encounter to encounter (which also makes recasting it awkward and unsatisfying.)  Making WoF a toggle (with an appropriate energy cost) would remove its duration dependence (freeing up mod slots for durability and other utility) while staying true to the purpose of the ability: extra DPS when you need it, at the cost of more energy usage.

 

 

 

There should still be an animation for toggling on and off so that the player must think about when and where to activate/deactivate the ability (not as long as the current cast animation but not instant either.)

 

There is no need to make it weaker numbers-wise; just make the energy cost significant so that you can't just keep it on forever.  Making it a CC ability would not balance it either, but make it overpowered.  Have you seen Absorb and Sound Quake?  CC toggle abilities are ridiculous on-demand CC that costs no energy and trivializes gameplay.

 

Yeah exactly why I'm unsure of making it a toggleable ability. It already has actually pretty good CC, and making it toggleable would have people running around with Fleeting and keeping it on for almost forever. Making it pure CC would also have this same impact, I agree. My earlier post was more me thinking through the options and, while I can see it working that way, it would be both overpowered and end up just being another copied ability.

 

Having it go pure DoT damage with toggleability would be..different, but also a bit overpowered. Again, Fleeting + toggleable WoF = just as OP as those other toggleable abilities. I dunno, maybe if Fleeting wasn't in existence it'd be fine. But sadly Fleeting's negatives are completely ignored when you use it with toggleable abilities.

[RealPandemonium]

Having it go pure DoT damage with toggleability would be..different, but also a bit overpowered. Again, Fleeting + toggleable WoF = just as OP as those other toggleable abilities. I dunno, maybe if Fleeting wasn't in existence it'd be fine. But sadly Fleeting's negatives are completely ignored when you use it with toggleable abilities.

That's why the energy cost should be significant.  From the start I thought toggle-able abilities should have a cost equal to pre-change cost/second.  Instead they just made the costs arbitrarily low, using a cost/second value that assumes max duration modding.

 

As long as you feel the cost of the ability and have to manage its use (or else run out of energy constantly) WoF would be the ideal ability to make a toggle.

[Trenggiling]

The thing is, though, that all those abilities needed was to be able to cancel them early.  Making them into a toggle just made them overpowered, lowering their energy cost dramatically and making them super-flexible to the point of mindlessness.  

 

On the other hand, WoF is a supplemental DPS ability that isn't flexible enough to be worth using.  Its reliance on duration mods takes up too many slots and its nature as a timed buff causes much of the energy spent to be wasted while moving from encounter to encounter (which also makes recasting it awkward and unsatisfying.)  Making WoF a toggle (with an appropriate energy cost) would remove its duration dependence (freeing up mod slots for durability and other utility) while staying true to the purpose of the ability: extra DPS when you need it, at the cost of more energy usage.

The switch to toggle didn't do anything but add flexibility, by my calculations 11 seconds of absorb costs 105 energy (26.5 with max EE) but back when power duration was involved it could be buffed up to what?

Almost half a minute for 25 energy?

The flexibility buff ended up extending the amount of time the skills could be left running because people could now use the skill as needed instead of wasting the majority of their 25 energy sitting there doing nothing.

Also 3 out of Ember's 4 abilities use duration, and I'm pretty sure that WoF is meant as a room clearer, and not just a supplemental DPS ability.

Try using it on low levels.

Do you see how well it kills the mobs?

I think that that is how it is intended to work at higher levels as well.

[fi5h]

First off, I have to disagree with almost everything OP said.

 

1. Ember's 1st ability does more damage than most other frames first ability. Fireball has a low base damage but high dps when counting the DoT. It also does lingering damage. IMO I think it is FINE as a basic ability. It's fast, cheap, spammable, burns the ground where it impacts, inflicts fire status on hit, ranged and 25 base energy. As for being ember's signature ability? No, that's World on Fire. Most players who never played ember probably don't even know this ability exists.

 

2. I agree accelerant is in a good spot,your buff is also a nice idea. Nova ulti is a 200% increase from all sources of damage but doesn't scale with power strength(IIRC) and Accelerant is a 250% damage increase to Fire damage BUT scales with power strength to 572.5% increase (exact value courtesy of warframewiki) Considering that Molecular Prime is an ULT and Accelerant is a 2nd ability your change may be too extreme. 

 

3. My FireBlast already lasts for close to 50 seconds with full duration build. Increasing the duration of this skill will do nothing as this skill is completely USELESS against ALL factions over lvl 25 even light infested. The damage on this skill is completely negligible even when you stack the sh*t out of it. Increasing the wall thickness will help with cc though but, honestly, I'd prefer if we got Ruk's fireblast. No ring but powerfull blowback CC. 

 

4. World on Fire a straight buff to base damage won't fix what's wrong with this ability. Long wind up, short duration and low damage but good cc. 

 

 

--snip--
Here, I'll go first: Simply changing the number values of Ember's attacks will not fix the scaling problem she has in T3/4.

 

I agree. The top tier DPS frames Mirage, Nova and Nyx currently have percentage based scalings. Nova and Mirage are considered best at dps because their abilities amplify their weapon damage. Nova has AMD and Molecular Prime and Mirage has Eclipse and HoM and Nyx scales infinitely with the enemies' strength. Ember being a frame that focuses mainly on her powers rather than her weapons can simply not compare. Weapons just naturally do more damage than abilities and while Accelerent increases fire damage on weapons the presence of fire leaders in infested, void and grineer missions will almost nullify that boost and the mono damage typing of ember's abilities. After this we can say that ember simply isn't a dps frame when compared to nyx, nova and mirage and can take do with a buff to her base stats or a SUBSTANTIALLY larger power scaling to make her a dps frame.

 

I'll bite and say that Ember needs 4 to be a toggle and for 3 to have some effect that makes it worth equipping.  

 

 

Yeah exactly why I'm unsure of making it a toggleable ability. It already has actually pretty good CC, and making it toggleable would have people running around with Fleeting and keeping it on for almost forever. Making it pure CC would also have this same impact, I agree. My earlier post was more me thinking through the options and, while I can see it working that way, it would be both overpowered and end up just being another copied ability.

 

Having it go pure DoT damage with toggleability would be..different, but also a bit overpowered. Again, Fleeting + toggleable WoF = just as OP as those other toggleable abilities. I dunno, maybe if Fleeting wasn't in existence it'd be fine. But sadly Fleeting's negatives are completely ignored when you use it with toggleable abilities.

 

SoulEchelon says it well. The thing with the current togglable abilities is that they either limit the actions of the frame (banshee, nyx) or are prisim... Having a togglable ability (like prism) where you can run around and fire your weapons (prism) and your frame is free to perform other actions (prism once more) is pretty darn OP...

 

At least it sounds that way on paper, in a practical setting mirage players that want to get the most out of their prism have to sacrifice either power efficiency, range, duration or strength. I'm sure if WoF became a togglable ability Ember players will face this same problem and the strengths they gave up would end up balancing out the strength they gained. 

[Azawarau]

Hi thanks for reading!

 

 

Ember was once a tank caster who could get up in the enemies face and dish out the pain.

But DE said that her intended purpose was as a glass cannon.

 

=====Stats=====

Ember is relatively slow, and yet she needs to run around for her ultimate to work properly.

So think that it only feels right to buff her sprint speed from 1.0 to 1.2 or at least 1.1.

Other than that she is okay for a glass cannon.

 

=====Fireball=====

This skill should be Ember’s trademark, her signature move, her butter, and her bread.

But it’s pitifully low damage, and small blast radius makes it nigh worthless without the added damage from accelerant.

So instead of 150/275/300/400 damage it should deal 250/400/550/700 damage, and the blast radius should be buffed to 5 meters.

The damage drop off should be adjusted accordingly to the new range and damage numbers.

And the hitbox of the projectile itself should be enlarged to make it easier to land direct hits.

 

=====Accelerant=====

Accelerant is a great skill that helps reinforce the glass cannon ideal.

But one slight issue is that fire damage will mix to make other elements, so it can be hard to mod weapons for it.

This could be solved by giving accelerant the ability to amplify the damage of fire variants (gas, radiation, and blast) by 40/60/80/100% SWPS (less than half of the fire damage buff)

 

=====Fire Blast=====

Okay first of all the 75 energy cost has to go.

50 energy is far more reasonable considering what it does.

The duration should be buffed from 9/12/15/20 seconds to 6/14/22/30 seconds.

This should help Ember defend objectives a little better as she is running around burning things.

And it would be cool if the thickness of the ring was affected by power range.

So that the edge of the ring reaches farther and the safe spot in the center gets smaller.

 

=====World On Fire=====

As far as ultimates go this one has bad DPS, and as far as glass cannon ultimates go this one has really bad DPS.

There are two ways to fix this… either make it hit 3 enemies at once again, or improve its damage to 250/400/550/700 damage a tick.

 

 

Click Here for a full list of my threads.

Fireball is one of the better 1s and has an AoE that gets super buffed with accelerant and has a bit of stun to it

 

Nothing wrong with that

 

Accelerant working with mixed elements iwould make every frame with blast/radiation damage get too huge a buff. M prime,Stomp,Reckoning and such

 

Not to mention you should work with your frame rather than against it

 

If you know fire gives you 5x dmg then use fire

 

Fire blast is useless

 

Adding damage to WoF wont fix a thing. Itll make ember seem better but she wont actually improve

 

WoF itself is dependent on so many mods that a full WoF build would take your entire mod capacity and leave your other powers weakened

 

The best solutions are increasing its duration enough that maxed or near maxed duration isnt needed (save 2-3 mod slots)

 

Make it a toggle (save 3 mod slots)

 

Increase its range and make it fixed (saves 1 mod slot)

 

The duration choices are best since itll not only save her 2-3 slots but itll also remove the - range on her other skills which is a serious killing factor for her

[TigerLyli]

I really liked Ember back in the day. Got Ember Prime now, but she doesn't feel as solid for some reason.

 

I agree with some of the points that OP make, but have some of my own suggestions on how to rework Ember. As OP states, she is a close-range glass cannon, where her best defense is the strongest offense ("leading to interesting crowd control opportunities"). In this way, she should excel against Infested and other close-ranged enemies.

 

Fireball

Cheap damage skill, as far as number-1 skills go, but usually has to be used with Accelerant to deal any major damage. Splash damage is pretty low. DoT helps, somewhat. Can be used while reloading, which is probably the best time to use it. 

-----------------------

* Initial Damage should be increased.

* Damage should be dealt to all enemies within a small blast radius, rather than against a single enemy with small splash damage.

 

Fire Blast

There needs to be something that justifies the 75 energy cost of this ability, or at least lower it. It deals far too little damage and not much practical utility.

------------------------

* Increase duration / damage, though this won't scale well.

* Add the Arson/Caustic (Fire) Eximus's radial fire knockdown.

* In my opinion, the best addition to this ability would be to get rid of Accelerant by just adding its effects to this ability, which would certainly justify the 75 energy cost. Enemies in the initial blast and those standing in the flames are more susceptible to heat damage.

 

Accelerant

Decent stun / range, great at amplifying all other sources of Heat damage.

-----------------------

* Replace with [Overheat] for a lack of a better name.

Toggleable. Initial Cast of 25 Energy with 5 Energy / Second, reduced by Power Efficiency. 

Degenerates [100/80/60/50] shields/health per second, but increases all Heat damage done by Ember by [+50%/+100%/+150%/+200%]. Degeneration and Damage amplification affected by Power Strength. Note that damage amplification is additive.

 

Note: this is basically a straight ripoff of Path of Exile's Righteous Fire: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Righteous_Fire

 

World of Fire

Short range, which is fine against most Infested. Somewhat short duration. As of now, I can reliably hit wave 15-20 of ODD, which is roughly level 30-35ish enemies, even with a poor weapon. Controls the density of enemies around you by making them explode.

-----------------------

*Lengthen Max Duration to 15 seconds.

*Deal damage to multiple enemies at the location of the explosion. Might be hard to implement.

*Tone down the effects of the explosions. I can barely see anything with the enemies exploding left and right and filling my entire screen. I preferred Ember's previous WoF effect because I could actually see what I was shooting.

 

 

[badkarma913]

OLD EMBER WILL BE MISSED

[Trenggiling]

OLD EMBER WILL BE MISSED

Old Ember is already missed silly :P

[badkarma913]

Old Ember is already missed silly :P

oh yeah...now im extra sad

[GTG3000]

#BringBackOverheat