Devil's Advocate: Why De's Handling Of The Lore Is Brilliant.

[FillyRarity]

My only gripe with the Dark Souls comparison people are making is Dark Souls goes to some length to build and give you a worthwhile objective.

Dark souls begins with a tangable goal to go towards: ring the bell.

 

What does Warframe start with?

"You're a ninja. These guys hate you. Don't worry about why. Go pew pew them".

[reltats]

I hate it when people compare warframe's lore to dark souls because it's completely different. Dark souls had a brilliantly thought out lore, warframe is random scraps pieced together as the devs think of it. It's clear that they *wish* They were dark souls, but the comparison is insulting. It's just a front for them to not have to face any real lore based decisions.

 

I completely agree. This comparison seriously annoys me. what DE is doing would be valid if it was not random S#&$ they S#&$ out constantly without regard to what was previously S#&$ out and was actually thought out

Edited September 1, 2014 by reltats

[Hennuzz]

Erm guys. I accept to a lot of you that lore is an important part of the game to you. But when you bicker over it...

 

Lets face is. It is, just a game. A brilliant one, yes. But JUST A GAME

[vaugahn]

Here's my take on it:

We have amnesia, so we'll probably never find out about our origins or the Orokin. Leave those parts as vague as they are now. However, make boatloads of lore available on "current events", such as the various factions and what not.

[ElHefe]

I wasn't suggesting you were. I'm stating my opinion that DE has failed to give us what is IMHO the most critical "lore" and that is "what our character knows"

 

I'm fine with being an amnesiac, with the Old War being a mystery, With the Sentients being half remembered.

But if our Tenno knows it, then we should, explicitly.

 

And that bugs the _hell_ out of me

 

My apologies ... too much Red Bull and not enough sleep when I made that post

 

Basically you and I are on the same page about the lack of a motivational aspect to the storyline that can be provided by some directed narrative

I would hope that through the course of play we learn about:

1. Who the Orokin were - their natures, beliefs so that we may discern why they had to be deposed

2. Who the Sentients were - their natures, beliefs so that we can decide why they had to be disposed of

4. Who The Lotus is - her nature, beliefs so we can resolve whether she should be followed

5. What is The Void - its real nature so we can infer what it really did to the Tenno

 

What is not on the table may be surprising ... the Tenno themselves

Even though they are amnestic, we already have a pretty clear idea for what they are - discounting the perpetual confusion surrounding Hayden Tenno and whether Dark Sector was in fact a prequel or merely a creative springboard

 

Some may make take exception to The Void being on the list because of its description in the Codex as being basically unknowable

Well that is from the perspective of the Orokin ...

One of the unusual aspects of being the writer of the story is that while your characters can be made oblivious of the obvious, in the end the writer knows everything

If DE leaves The Void as an "unknowable" then I would have to pass that off as just being lazy and a lack of imagination

There are many ways how to make it explainable to the player while at the same time understandable why it would be baffling to the Orokin

I would refer you to Edwin A. Abbott's famous "Flatland:  A Romance of Many Dimensions" (1884) as a classic example

 

What will make it good story telling will be how the player much piece this together and what teasers are left hanging so that another installment of the game is anticipated

 

The only condition that should be inviolate is consistency ...

Edited September 1, 2014 by ElHefe

[Wurdyburd]

For all the people comparing Warframe to Darksouls:

Darksouls has an IMMENSE depth of information to find, if you look for it, within the text descriptions of items, talking to NPCs, even the location that you find certain items, like the Painted World. Having the doll that opens the Painted World within the cell you start the game in is perfect for lorecrafters and theorists, without flat out telling you why it's there, or how.

Compared to Warframe. The majority of the so-called 'lore' the devs put out are in the form of events. Now, I'm normally an advocate for this kind of thing, making the community pseudo-responsible for the world's shaping, but not only do the events' results have NO impact on the interactable world at all, they give us no reason to. "Kill these things or bad things will happen" is less an incentive than "do this and we'll give you shiny guns."

All the Prime lore we've gotten have been bits and pieces, which while of minor interest, have no impact on the world's history. We can speculate all we want, but ultimately, we have nothing to work with.

 

DE Steve said that they want to keep lore vague to allow players to create their own stories, but to make those stories, we need a box to work in, and tools to use. We need a FOUNDATION. If anyone remembers the 'lore' contest DE hosted some time ago, the winner depicted a Tenno who discovered in a hidden cavern on Earth, a cryopod containing Hayden Tenno, after which the Lotus executed the player, since she now has what she was looking for. THAT is lorecrafting, something that couldn't be done without the location: Earth, and historical figure: Hayden Tenno. That's the kind of lore Darksouls uses, places combined with people combined with things.
Not this vague, obscure 'lore' found in Mag Prime's entry describing how the Tenno are angels of death or whatever.

 

Lastly, Ordis. Ordis was made out to be some kind of key to lore when he was described/announced, but he seems bland and not important at all. Furthermore: "Do you remember the Old War, Operator? Ordis seems to have misplaced those memories."
Ordis is a machine, not a biological form capable of memories.
Those are files.
They are not 'misplaced', they're either sealed, which is a bs excuse for lore-hiding, or corrupted, which while less bs, is still wildly disappointing.

[ndantony]

Yes. Skyrim, and I'm currently playing ESO right now. Love them.

 

But frankly I don't play Warframe for lore. Not sure if DE is even care much other than just throws some pieces here and there. It helps to incite interest and keep those lore chasers busy trying to make sense out of the Warframe's universe. In facts, I think you can just throw some sh!$ out there and someone will try to add/modify/write lore to make sense out of it. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

It &!$$es people off. 

 

It gets people to argue over what few scraps of lore they present.  It makes those scraps all the sweeter. 

 

It makes narrative sense that we know very little of the old war or Orokin times - amnesia after all. 

 

It's like Dark Souls, where most of it is merely inferred through item(or in this case Codex) flavor text.

 

They have very little lore, but it's better that way since it garners interest in conversations.  The way people bicker.  Surely you can see the value in that, right?  We can already infer a great many things by drawing upon the likes of Dark Sector and Pariah(though Pariah is unrelated it shares thematics with most of DE's work.)

All of this, it adds more meaning that simply vomiting lore onto a page would.  We grow attached to our characters as a result and it adds a sense of mystery.  All recursively garnering interest and inciting arguments that go deeper and deeper as to why the Warframe universe is the way it is, if it's connected to Dark Sector(My opinion: Yes.) and the true nature of the Tenno and Orokin. 

And I hope it stays that way because they handle it brilliantly.

 

i agree to a certain extent...

 

as long as DE never takes the warframe's helmet's off ingame, and as long as the tenno never speak ingame...

 

but i forsee a future soon where there will be /dance and for whatever reason, that disappoints me =/

 

i do think that being vague about the frame's themselves and the origin of the tenno has some positives, becuz it allows the player to imprint their own ideas upon their ingame characters, they can make up their own version of the story, this is fine

 

but i also approved of the fragmented story text we have been getting for some of the primes/stalker/g3 in the codex, more of this would really be nice

 

additionally DE should really give us all of the past events as codex entries, not just the few we have atm

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

It's like Dark Souls

Lol, no.

[ElHefe]

@ Wurlyburd ... nice post, thanks for the description of Dark Souls as it is a game I haven't played (I stayz away from magix)

 

Presently Warframe only hints at a story - possibly an epic story

The sad truth is that a story will never come about from the community as there are just too many divergent opinions and tastes

A good friend of mine who doesn't play the game because of the absence of a traditional game story line dubbed Warframe as "Doorframe" because it is vacant and useless without the door

 

Your appeal that a foundation exists and that it be imparted indeed is essential ...

What the thread author is satisfied with is that the story be given piecemeal - it seems that most of us EXPECT a sequential story - don't give it all away from the outset

However, in its present state Warframe is an arcade shooter atop a collectors past time

 

Your point about Ordis is spot on ...

The question is will this be yet another bland attempt of giving immersion where scant immersion exists because your character really interacts with NO ONE in the game or has DE finally rolled up its sleeves to start giving us some concrete and consistent information

Edited September 1, 2014 by ElHefe

[Mak_Gohae]

People like to talk and that's why language was invented.

Just because we are talking doesnt mean we are enjoying what is going on.

I was cool with not knowing what is going on early in the game cause.... beta... but it has been long enough.

It's time to start setting down some pillars to the story. 

 

They said that they have some story bits that you will be able to pick up in the future and they really need to get that going cause an event where we go get ice for sushi is not the most exciting thing for an event. What next? Are we going to deliver some box that end up being laundry?

[Pisirk]

The lore atm is like torn pages of the bible without page numbers on them. It lacks detail and solid descriptions, it's purely layers of speculation upon speculation. And like some have mentioned, the state of the lore isn't intentional(as OP described it) as the devs hasn't poured much resources into creating a lore system that actually compliments the game mechanics. Sure we get small segments of things once in a while but it really never answers the question why anything we do matters on a wider spectrum.

 

At first when the Lotus woke us up, it felt like she needed us as much as the rest of the universe because the grineer and the corpus are planning terrible things. But right when we leave that part, we're presented with a bunch of planets with levels that contribute ALMOST 0, nothing, nutta(with exception to the bosses we slay) to the lore, and it frustrates me personally because we spend more than 3/4 of the time on those missions of our entire time in the game and it doesn't incorporate lore?! Outrageous. And because of that it almost feels like there isn't a crisis in the Warframe universe and everything is fine even without our intervention. At the current state, the Tenno isn't really the protagonist of the story, he's just someone who challenges himself to the different ranks of grineer and corpus army bases. We're not saving the universe and the universe doesn't need us.

 

The Tenno are just a bunch of terrorist who kill things for their amusement.

 

And of course! WHERE THE HELL IS LOTUS.

[Lunamaniac]

It is like dark souls.  Dark Souls does it incredibly well and warframe, currently less so.  Remember though, warframe is in beta.  It's not just a label, look at all the ui and core gameplay changes we get every few weeks.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

It is like dark souls.  Dark Souls does it incredibly well and warframe, currently less so.  Remember though, warframe is in beta.  It's not just a label, look at all the ui and core gameplay changes we get every few weeks.

It's not like Dark Souls.

 

Dark Souls would be like taking the Lord of the Rings Novel and ripping out a handful of random pages then giving the rest of the book to a reader.  There is a story there, that the creator clearly knows, but it has certain details left out to make it more ambiguous. Since the frame work is all there and organized in a way that makes it clear that there is an underlying story makes it a masterpiece.

 

WF's lore is just a bunch of crap jotted down randomly.  IIRC, the Devs even admitted to making it up as they go.  That is nothing like Dark Souls at all.

[Lunamaniac]

It's not like Dark Souls.

 

Dark Souls would be like taking the Lord of the Rings Novel and ripping out a handful of random pages then giving the rest of the book to a reader.  There is a story there, that the creator clearly knows, but it has certain details left out to make it more ambiguous. Since the frame work is all there and organized in a way that makes it clear that there is an underlying story makes it a masterpiece.

 

WF's lore is just a bunch of crap jotted down randomly.  IIRC, the Devs even admitted to making it up as they go.  That is nothing like Dark Souls at all.

 

Why does the game have to prove that it has a story it doesn't want to tell us?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Why does the game have to prove that it has a story it doesn't want to tell us?

You need to reread what I posted.

[ElHefe]

(edited)

WF's lore is just a bunch of crap jotted down randomly.  IIRC, the Devs even admitted to making it up as they go.

 

Who in DE made those remarks and when?

Was it recently?  If so, that is very very concerning ...

Can you direct us to source material?  A Dev stream, an interview? 

Worth to hear it straight from their mouths

 

[SoulEchelon]

It &!$$es people off. 

 

It gets people to argue over what few scraps of lore they present.  It makes those scraps all the sweeter. 

 

It makes narrative sense that we know very little of the old war or Orokin times - amnesia after all. 

 

It's like Dark Souls, where most of it is merely inferred through item(or in this case Codex) flavor text.

 

They have very little lore, but it's better that way since it garners interest in conversations.  The way people bicker.  Surely you can see the value in that, right?  We can already infer a great many things by drawing upon the likes of Dark Sector and Pariah(though Pariah is unrelated it shares thematics with most of DE's work.)

All of this, it adds more meaning that simply vomiting lore onto a page would.  We grow attached to our characters as a result and it adds a sense of mystery.  All recursively garnering interest and inciting arguments that go deeper and deeper as to why the Warframe universe is the way it is, if it's connected to Dark Sector(My opinion: Yes.) and the true nature of the Tenno and Orokin. 

And I hope it stays that way because they handle it brilliantly.

 

I've been saying this forever. I absolutely LOVE how mysterious it all is. There's an obvious tension in the air surrounding the Tenno and the other factions - a tension that ends up painting us in a very bad light. We know just enough about the universe and the lore to slowly piece it together, but at the same time create our own theories, judgements, and even characters. It's why we will more than likely never see what a Tenno actually looks like - because it'll ruin part of the mystery and destroy the lore we made for ourselves.

 

I totally understand people wanting a grounded, etched-in-stone lore as well. That type of lore helps ground you in the universe you're in. However in my opinion, I love being given a universe where the lore is mysterious and in bits and pieces, because I can create my own story within it.

 

It's also pretty cool to see how other players view this universe. While I view my warframes as separate Tenno in a militaristic, albeit mercenary group, someone else would see theirs as a singular Tenno, maybe a robotic, or a sentient form of energy, or even a ghost (in the shell). I love that. That's the sort of freedom that can't be given easily in a more "grounded" lore universe.

Edited September 1, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[Lunamaniac]

You need to reread what I posted.

The difference you stated was that warframe's lore was created totally randomly and the blank spots haven't been thought up yet.  I'm just rationalizing what you've been saying.  The only solution to your proposed problem would be the game somehow proving it had some deeper lore that it was choosing not to reveal, which is of course impossible.

 

You need to think about what you're posting.

[vaugahn]

I've been saying this forever. I absolutely LOVE how mysterious it all is. There's an obvious tension in the air surrounding the Tenno and the other factions - a tension that ends up painting us in a very bad light. We know just enough about the universe and the lore to slowly piece it together, but at the same time create our own theories, judgements, and even characters. It's why we will more than likely never see what a Tenno actually looks like - because it'll ruin part of the mystery and destroy the lore we made for ourselves.

 

I totally understand people wanting a grounded, etched-in-stone lore as well. That type of lore helps ground you in the universe you're in. However in my opinion, I love being given a universe where the lore is mysterious and in bits and pieces, because I can create my own story within it.

 

It's also pretty cool to see how other players view this universe. While I view my warframes as separate Tenno in a militaristic, albeit mercenary group, someone else would see theirs as a singular Tenno, maybe a robotic, or a sentient form of energy, or even a ghost (in the shell). I love that. That's the sort of freedom that can't be given easily in a more "grounded" lore universe.

 

Well, we can ground ourselves and still have that. To do that we need more worldbuilding. Think about 40k, they have an absolutely massive amount of fluff but that "your dudes" feeling is still there. We need a more defined setting, not a more defined backstory. 

[SoulEchelon]

Well, we can ground ourselves and still have that. To do that we need more worldbuilding. Think about 40k, they have an absolutely massive amount of fluff but that "your dudes" feeling is still there. We need a more defined setting, not a more defined backstory. 

What would make it a more defined setting?

[vaugahn]

What would make it a more defined setting?

 

Well ,right now we sort of know what's going on in the Origin system, but not really. Basically, more lore about the Grineer and the Corpus, more about the colonists, more about the various planets and what's going on there, about the solar rails and dark sectors, about the clan politics of the tenno and what we do when we're not out murdering, stuff like that.Basically, nothing that reveals major details about our backstory, but still gives us a richer universe.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The only solution to your proposed problem would be the game somehow proving it had some deeper lore that it was choosing not to reveal, which is of course impossible.

Dark Souls proves it has an deeper connected lore without revealing what it is.

[SoulEchelon]

Well ,right now we sort of know what's going on in the Origin system, but not really. Basically, more lore about the Grineer and the Corpus, more about the colonists, more about the various planets and what's going on there, about the solar rails and dark sectors, about the clan politics of the tenno and what we do when we're not out murdering, stuff like that.Basically, nothing that reveals major details about our backstory, but still gives us a richer universe.

 

Ah okay. Yeah I can get behind that. It would also strengthen the lore we can create for ourselves.

[ElHefe]

Well ,right now we sort of know what's going on in the Origin system, but not really. Basically, more lore about the Grineer and the Corpus, more about the colonists, more about the various planets and what's going on there, about the solar rails and dark sectors, about the clan politics of the tenno and what we do when we're not out murdering, stuff like that.Basically, nothing that reveals major details about our backstory, but still gives us a richer universe.

 

Not to detract but more lore about the Grineer and the Corpus - as much as I would welcome it - does little

 

Details about present factions will provide clarity for present actions by the Tenno ...

It doesn't provide a broader context for the Tenno and it doesn't tell the bigger story

 

After all, those factions came after the Tenno - at least the Grineer, the Corpus may well have been part of the Orokin Empire as it would need a commercial structure and in particular the manner which the Corpus elite refer to the Tenno as "the betrayers"

Somewhere in that simple description I think is a very valuable clue ...

 

If the Corpus were built solely on the ashes of the Orokin Empire, of what importance are the Tenno?

The Tenno betrayal of the Orokin laid the foundation for the Corpus to emerge

However, if the Corpus were part of the Orokin Empire, then its collapse would be a serious blow to the Corpus and hence there would be eternal animosity directed at the Tenno

 

The Grineer, as they presently exist as a military culture ruled by The Twin Queens would probably have not be countenanced by the Orokin who seem to have an abiding compulsion for ORDER - and order means CONTROL - and control means only one King 

 

I submit that only knowing more about the Orokin, the Sentients and The Lotus do the Tenno have a starting point to understand their place and therefore a justification for being