Rework Ideas For Balance Across The Board!

[Ithloniel]

I don't know if any of these ideas make sense, or would even be any good, but I'm just spit-balling here.  Let me know your thoughts/critiques.
 

Most people put Excalibur, Ember, and Saryn on the short list for reworks, so I thought, "why not brain-storm some ideas to try and help the devs get the creative juices flowing?"

 

Here's what I've come up with.

 

 

EMBER

Get rid of fire blast, and replace it with the following:

 

Cauterize

1/2/3/4% life leech from all heat damage powers for 2/4/6/8 seconds

Cost: 75 Energy

Ability duration affected by Power Duration

Life leech quantity affected by Power Strength

 

The reason this is the only change I'm suggesting is because Ember's power damage is fine.  World of Fire + Intensify = 520 damage per explosion, and with an Accelerant + Intensify (325% fire bonus) that is 2210 damage PER explosion!  Since Ember's biggest problem is staying alive, life leech would easily resolve that.  With 4% life leech, Ember's WoF + Itsfy will heal Ember 20.8 life per enemy damaged, per explosion.  With Accelerant + Itsfy, that is 88.4 life per enemy damaged, per explosion.  Seems like a good way to live.

 

SARYN

Change Contagion to give melees AoE capability, with a range increase of 7/12/17/22.  Imagine a Saryn in melee combat, swiping her poisonous sword every-which way, spreading disease through the air around her to affect nearby enemies.  The affective range could be increased using Power Range.  Get rid of the damage bonus.  It won't need it, with this.

 

Change Venom into a trap skill.  You drop a Venom Trap on the ground at bottlenecks and access points, so when enemies run over them, it triggers and explodes with Gas damage.  This will work well with molt, since you can set traps and lead enemies right over to a Molt while you aim at them from a safe vantage point.

 

Change Molt to have half its current cast-time.  This will allow its ability to have more use in melee combat.  Since the damage can only be dealt while nearby the Molt, and the animation interrupts melee combat, the halved cast-time will allow melee to flow a bit more uninterrupted.  Natural Talent will also lower this cast-time further, to be barely noticeable, allowing combat to flow even better.  Building Molt for high efficiency low duration will allow it to be used as a short-fuse time-bomb while in melee range, combining well with your melee-style Saryn.  Molt, as a long-duration version, will still work well as damage mitigation for players who like a bit of distance between them and their enemy.  The long-duration version also woks great with Venom Trap.

 

I don't see a problem with Miasma.  Actually, with this version of Saryn, it works well.  You can use its stun mechanic to escape a crowd, while dropping a Molt and a couple Traps on your way to safety, or you can use it in melee range to give you a few more safe swings with your Contagion powered weapon.

 

EXCALIBUR

Now here's the hard one to fix...

 

Slash Dash should remove its own cast delay for subsequent Dashes, allowing multiple dash-chains to be established.  Lower the skill damage to about 100/150/200/250, and the cost to 15.  Slash Dash should receive the 400% damage bonus from unalerted enemies.  Also, the dash should move slightly faster, but still be affected by duration for speed.  Currently, it is worse mobility than most copter-capable melee weapons without an ample amount of duration.  Slash Dash should not be forced to use Narrow Minded simply to be a strong option for player mobility.  Front-facing damage that hits Excalibur is negated (much like what a parry would do).  Nothing is quite like Slash Dashing into a Corpus Tech and dying in the process. 

 

 

Radial Blind should be Line-of-Sight, to some extent.  The issues with LoS right now are kind of obvious... enemies behind other enemies are completely blinded, partial cover seems to protect enemies looking right at you, even while they are shooting you... etc... once LoS is improved, this shouldn't be a problem.

 

Super Jump should be replaced with something that makes sense.  Excalibur, much as the name suggests, is a knight and/or swordsman.  The jump just makes no sense, and has no place here.  I have no idea what to replace it with.  Suggestions? (EDIT: ADDED SUPER JUMP IDEA TO THE BOTTOM)

 

Radial Javelin should be chargeable.  Take your time to power it up, make it stronger, and release.  The damage it deals should range from a short charge time (aprox. 100 damage per blade) to a long charge time (aprox. 500 damage per blade).  Also, let it get the 400% damage bonus from unalerted enemies.  This will put its damage in line with some of the new ultimates, for a change, but would still require TWO SKILLS to get to that damage quota (Radial Blind + Javelin combo).

 

 

As you may have noticed, my rework ideas are designed to allow each frame to use their powers to create interesting new tactics, as well as develop strong synergy between them and other frames.  If you have any thoughts, opinions, or critiques, please post them below.  If you have your own ideas, post them below too!

 

 

Just a few notes here:

 

 

Numbers and theory behind the Slash Dash + Radial Blind combo

A basic unalerted Slash Dash will deal 1000 damage on stunned enemies at a cost of 60 energy (Slash Dash + Radial Blind).  This sounds pretty fair to me, since it is damage in a straight line, and not a heavy AoE.  The 15 energy cost also means chaining Dashes will be easier for late-game Warframes to scale the ability into decent end-game damage.  at 3.75 energy at max efficiency, an end-game Excalibur can deal 1000 damage in a straight line for 16.25 energy.  WIth frames doing more than that with full AoE skills for only 25 energy, this sounds pretty fair to me.  In fact, by paying for more Dashes, you can keep that damage coming.  To equal the 25 energy, that would be another 2 to 3 dashes.  3 more dashes (4 in total), costing 27.50 energy, would deal 4000 damage in total, 1000 damager per dash.  This makes it comparable to Ash's new ultimate, in terms of damage, but it requires a combo to achieve.

 

Numbers and theory behind Radial Javelin + Radial Blind combo

If we, for testing's sake, pick out that Radial Javelin deals 100 damager per second of charging, at a cost of 25 + 7/6/5/4, then a max rank Radial Javelin, charged for 5 seconds, would deal 500 damage and cost 55 energy.  The same Radial Javelin at 10 seconds would deal 1000 damage and cost 65 energy.  At 20 seconds, 2000 damage and cost 105 energy.

 

If we mix Radial Blind into the mix...

 

At 1 second: 400 damage with a total cost of 79 energy

At 5 seconds: 2000 damage with a total cost of 105 energy

At 10 seconds: 4000 damage with a total cost of 115 energy

At 20 seconds: 8000 damage with a total cost of 155 energy

 

As you can tell, the skill becomes more efficient over time, and as damage goes up, the cost per damage dealt goes down.  This; however, must be considered in context: While you are using your charge, you are being shot at.  Few frames will survive standing still, just charging an attack in the middle of a battlefield, for a total of 20 seconds.  That is kind of insane.  To solve this, an Excalibur would use Radial Blind, but even that doesn't hit everyone, meaning not everyone will

 

A) Stop shooting you

B) Take the extra 4x damage

 

Due to this, the skill is not quite as efficient as it seems.  In fact, the general idea is you would want Radial Blind for more than just the stun, but to actually make the blind last longer, making duration more important.  This; however, means a duration build becomes useful for Excalibur, but since duration is cut back by Fleeting Expertise, duration needs to be balanced using either two extra mod slots (Continuity + Constitution) or one (Narrow Minded).  Opting for one allows you more space for building, but seriously cuts down your effective range with Slash Dash, Radial Blind, and Radial Javelin.  Due to this, it becomes a balancing act.  The skill is good, and it can dish some pretty amazing damage, but finding the sweet spot is difficult.  Damage with this combo, and the Radial Blind skill in general, becomes a matter of energy consumption vs. survivability vs. effective range vs. damage.

EDIT: IDEA TO REPLACE SUPER JUMP!!

 

Meditate

Excalibur, tired from long battles, seeks inner enlightenment, and reflects on those who've died in his wake

Excalibur gets on one knee, places an energy skana into the ground before him, with head bent, and begins to heal.

Healing rate is 20/30/40/50 life per second.

Cost is 25 + 7/6/5/4

Cannot move while active.

Amount healed is affected by Power Strength

 

The idea is to use this skill in a safe, empty spot on the map to heal up, or more importantly, following a Radial Blind, to prepare for the next onslaught.  You can even use it after clearing a mass of enemies with Radial Javelin, before the next group shows up, or between waves during a defense.

 

5 second heal: 250 life, 45 energy

10 second heal: 500 life, 65 energy

20 second heal: 1000 life, 105 energy

 

I designed this one to fit well with Radial Blind's blind duration, but since the blind is not perfect, expect to still get shot unless you either kill those enemies, have teammates, or get to safety.

 

For more great ideas, see Vaugahn's comments 3 posts down.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Angius]

Leave Fireblast alone. A few of them stacked around the cryopod can do wonders on Infested defences.

 

[R34LM]

Keep in mind that, based on how limited endgame and higher level play is, people will be stuck in the mindset of survival and defense.

[vaugahn]

With the LoS change for Radial Blind, I'm thinking Excalibur should be changed into a sort of frontline warrior archetype. He should be able to dive into a crowd and put them all out of commission, with his friends backing him up.

 

With that in mind, I like your changes for Slash Dash. Making it faster, letting it travel further, and having it block front-facing damage would allow it to be used as a gap-closer for assaulting big groups of enemies. It should also have some punch through so it doesn't get stopped by enemies in the way.

 

For Radial Blind, it should have 5-10m unblockable AoE, with the rest operating on LoS. This would be more in line with a flashbang-type attack, and give some incentive to get close to enemies.

 

I'm not sure what could be put in for Super Jump. Going off what I mentioned above, perhaps some sort of defensive buff skill?

 

All good on the Radial Javelin changes. It also needs punch through and it should be able to pin enemies to walls.

[Drake_Gunn]

I haven't played saryn yet, but in regards to ember I find her pretty useful the way she is at the moment, sure she could use some tweaking but not much. I agree though that super jump on Excalibur is fairly useless though. The one other frame I personally feel needs tweaking is banshee, personally she is the one frame I've had issues finding a strategy for unless you set up a team to be beneficial.

[Ithloniel]

With the LoS change for Radial Blind, I'm thinking Excalibur should be changed into a sort of frontline warrior archetype. He should be able to dive into a crowd and put them all out of commission, with his friends backing him up.

 

With that in mind, I like your changes for Slash Dash. Making it faster, letting it travel further, and having it block front-facing damage would allow it to be used as a gap-closer for assaulting big groups of enemies. It should also have some punch through so it doesn't get stopped by enemies in the way.

 

For Radial Blind, it should have 5-10m unblockable AoE, with the rest operating on LoS. This would be more in line with a flashbang-type attack, and give some incentive to get close to enemies.

 

I'm not sure what could be put in for Super Jump. Going off what I mentioned above, perhaps some sort of defensive buff skill?

 

All good on the Radial Javelin changes. It also needs punch through and it should be able to pin enemies to walls.

 

 

I love all your ideas.  A lot. :D  Thanks for the critique!

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Ithloniel]

Leave Fireblast alone. A few of them stacked around the cryopod can do wonders on Infested defences.

 

 

Then what if we replaced Fireball instead?  Fireball seems kind of useless.

[Rexlars]

All good on the Radial Javelin changes. It also needs punch through and it should be able to pin enemies to walls.

 

What would be a neat way to add some utility on Excal's Radial Javelin is the ability to pin all enemies to the wall. Whether they die or not. While the enemies that survived are pinned to the wall, they can still shoot you (& vice versa), they're just stuck to the wall so they can't move. It would have a set duration for the amount of time until the blades dissolve. I think it'd be a cool way to add some CC to Radial Javelin.

[vaugahn]

What would be a neat way to add some utility on Excal's Radial Javelin is the ability to pin all enemies to the wall. Whether they die or not. While the enemies that survived are pinned to the wall, they can still shoot you (& vice versa), they're just stuck to the wall so they can't move. It would have a set duration for the amount of time until the blades dissolve. I think it'd be a cool way to add some CC to Radial Javelin.

 

Yeah, that would be cool. At the very least it would give you a reason to use it past level 40. Also if it sent the enemies flying directly backwards into walls no matter how far away said walls were, it could be really useful tool to buy yourself some breathing room.

 

I also think they should buff his armor, but that's not as important. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by vaugahn

[Racercowboy]

If ember's fireblast simply hit enemies inside the ring, it would be fine. I have no clue why it doesn't, and why they won't change it to do that.

 

I'm a bit confused on your idea of contagion. Are those numbers a percentage based increase or a flat increase? cause if they were flat it would be grossly OP with those numbers, but I do like the idea itself. A slightly different twist on the current contagion (which IMO is fine, but this one does something other than just a herp-derp damage boost).

 

Also like your excalibur ideas, except super jump. No, I'm not emotionally attached to the skill. It does have it's uses, like jumping over enemies and carpet bombing them, getting out of sticky situations, approaching enemies safely, etc. I do think it could use an energy cost reduction though, 25 energy to jump high = lolwut?

[SpadedTail]

About Ember:

 

I disagree with your ideas, simply because Warframe power damage scales very poorly. Ember needs crowd control OR group buff, or she'll never be as useful as the others in endgame. This can be done by either:

 

> Make Fireblast slow down enemies while inside the circle. Scales with power strength. Make Fireblast's diameter scale with power range. 

 

OR

 

> Make Fireblast buff ally's damage by 20/40/60/80% while inside it, as fire damage. Scales with strenght. 

 

With idea A, we can make series of fire donuts to slow down enemies and essentially make "safe zones" for players, and with idea B Ember becomes some sort of "offensive support" by doubling everyone's damage, making her a very valuable asset. 

 

About Saryn:

 

I like your ideas, especially Venom. If it stuns enemies when it triggers, it would be even better. About Contagion, i think having AoE "waves" coming of your melee looks sweet, but maybe an easier way to buff it would be increase its damage, and make it work with firearms too. I mean, with the same hands she "enchants" the weapons with poison, she could enchant the Boltor Prime's magazine for poisonous darts. So it could essentially be like Mirage's Eclipse.

[Tetragen]

I really disagree with the Venom for Saryn. Trap abilities are absolutely useless in Warframe. It really doesn't need a change other than ignore armor and make it easier to hit the orbs.

 

Edit: Before anyone jumps on Vauban and points out he's a trapper, I'd like to make the point that his traps all stick to things and have massive AoE effects that make it viable in a non-Defense mission.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Tetragen

[Ithloniel]

About Ember:

 

I disagree with your ideas, simply because Warframe power damage scales very poorly. Ember needs crowd control OR group buff, or she'll never be as useful as the others in endgame. This can be done by either:

 

> Make Fireblast slow down enemies while inside the circle. Scales with power strength. Make Fireblast's diameter scale with power range. 

 

OR

 

> Make Fireblast buff ally's damage by 20/40/60/80% while inside it, as fire damage. Scales with strenght. 

 

With idea A, we can make series of fire donuts to slow down enemies and essentially make "safe zones" for players, and with idea B Ember becomes some sort of "offensive support" by doubling everyone's damage, making her a very valuable asset. 

 

About Saryn:

 

I like your ideas, especially Venom. If it stuns enemies when it triggers, it would be even better. About Contagion, i think having AoE "waves" coming of your melee looks sweet, but maybe an easier way to buff it would be increase its damage, and make it work with firearms too. I mean, with the same hands she "enchants" the weapons with poison, she could enchant the Boltor Prime's magazine for poisonous darts. So it could essentially be like Mirage's Eclipse.

 

Thanks for the support and critiques!

 

The main reason I went with cauterize is because no frame has any form of life leech yet, as a means of healing or mitigating damage.  Also, playing Ember in the late-game often, I found that survival was her biggest problem: not damage.  With just intensify and accelerant, WoF deals 2210 points of damage per explosion.  Explosions happen between 2 and 4 seconds, and each explosion is AoE.  This is pretty good damage, especially just with intensify.  Slip a max Blind Rage on there with the Intensify and the accelerant bonus climbs to 6160 damage.  Personally, I prefer using a rank 5 Blind Rage, so a max Streamline counteracts it.  At rank 5, with accelerant and intensify, each explosion deals 4121 damage.  That is not bad at all.

 

Nonetheless, many have pointed out that Ember might benefit more from decent utility, and I'd agree. Cauterize can aid with damage mitigation, but it is patchwork.  We want something that is useful and helps the party as a whole.  I'll do my best to brainstorm something new to put there.

 

As for Saryn, I think stunning enemies from the trap is a good idea.  As for Contagion, I think it should be kept as a melee bonus, or it becomes too much of a copy of Roar.  As for the damage bonus, I never liked it, and increasing it doesn't fill a niche.  Tonnes of classes already have DPS bonuses to their melee attacks, whether through blinds, stealth, speed, or hard modifiers.  I think there is a spot to be filled by Saryn in having an increased range.  Those numbers were meant to be percents, kind of like the Reach mod.  The trick was to extend the reach of your weapon far enough to hit some foes from a pretty extensive distance.  Since some weapons can stun-lock foes, that is pretty powerful, especially if she is dropping short-fuse molts all around her as she melees.  Nonetheless, maybe the current damage modifier is still a good idea.  Keep it toxic, and get an animation that shows a toxic cloud spreading out from the melee weapon's attack...  I like that.  The 75% damage modifier on base damage isn't very much, so it should be fine to tack on there.

 

I'll be posting an edited version of my reworks soon, taking into account all the advice posted above.  Thanks!

[Ithloniel]

I really disagree with the Venom for Saryn. Trap abilities are absolutely useless in Warframe. It really doesn't need a change other than ignore armor and make it easier to hit the orbs.

 

Edit: Before anyone jumps on Vauban and points out he's a trapper, I'd like to make the point that his traps all stick to things and have massive AoE effects that make it viable in a non-Defense mission.

 

Traps have uses in non-linear missions, like Defense and Survival.  This is because most enemies pour out from specific areas.  Also, dropping a trap can be done prior to a wave showing up, or maybe you are by the LSC defending it from 5 chargers, so you drop a trap on the fly so it can immediately go off and help you out.  If you add in Neon_Angel's great idea to give it a stun feature, it gives Saryn that quick moment to activate the LSC.

[--Q--uaint]

I feel like Slash Dash should (outside of PvP) make you immune to all damage for its duration, and reflect all forward-incoming damage. The reflection would act like the Reflection Warframe Mod does, perhaps with the % reflected scaling with Power Strength....

 

Your idea of making Meditate take more energy at higher ranks is BS. Seriously. Just. Don't.

 

A better suggestion for his 3 (if you're gonna replace it) would be to make a toggleable ability (called Keen in another thread) similar to Volt's Speed but granting bonus jump height and/or a double jump.

[Ithloniel]

I feel like Slash Dash should (outside of PvP) make you immune to all damage for its duration, and reflect all forward-incoming damage. The reflection would act like the Reflection Warframe Mod does, perhaps with the % reflected scaling with Power Strength....

 

Your idea of making Meditate take more energy at higher ranks is BS. Seriously. Just. Don't.

 

A better suggestion for his 3 (if you're gonna replace it) would be to make a toggleable ability (called Keen in another thread) similar to Volt's Speed but granting bonus jump height and/or a double jump.

 

 

I worry that a Slash Dash that gives invulnerability and damage reflection might be a bit powerful, but I suppose when you consider invulnerable skills like Hysteria and Absorb, it isn't that bad at all.  I never made Meditate cost more energy at higher ranks.  Each rank was as follows:

 

Base Cost: 25 + X

Rank 0: 7 per sec

Rank 1: 6 per sec

Rank 2: 5 per sec

Rank 3: 4 per sec

 

Either way, I decided after reading replies and talking to players that Meditate was a bad idea.  I like the idea of Keen, but I feel Excalibur needs some toughness to keep him safe and viable.  I finished a rework edit, complete with a new power, and posted it on its own here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/309179-excalibur-rework-edited/

 

I will get to the other frames as I can find time.

 

EDIT:

 

New idea for Ember.

Keep Fire Blast, since people seem to like it, but make it cost 25.  It isn't that amazing a skill, but it definitely has its uses, and the damage isn't so high that the lower energy cost can't be justified.

Increase WoF base damage to 300/400/500/600 since consensus seems to be that the damage is much too low to be effective in the late-game, even compared to other frame ultimates.

Replace Fireball with:

Rising Phoenix

Ember glows brightly, surrounded by flame and ash.  A rebirth that gives new life to allies and death to enemies

Energy cost: 50

Range: 7/10/12/15 meters

Duration: 5/10/15/20 sec

- Any enemy killed within the radius spontaneously combusts, dealing 500 Heat damage to other nearby enemies.

- Any ally within the radius bleeds out 50% slower, and revives 50% faster

- If Ember is downed while Rising Phoenix is active, Ember has a 10% chance to resurrect herself

- Duration is affected by Power Duration

- Range is affected by Power Range

- Damage is affected by Power Strength

-  Chance to resurrect can't be changed through modding

- Explosion radius is set to a constant 5 meters, and can't be modded (This is not your Nova)

 

Rising Phoenix allows you to stack Heat damage with your other skills.  With accelerant giving boosts to all of Ember's power-based damage, these skills can create chains of death and mayhem.  Without any power-strength at all, WoF + Accelerant will be dealing 2100 per explosion.  With Intensify, that is 3315 damage per explosion.  Chained with RIsing Phoenix deaths, each death would be dealing an additional 1750, or 2763 with intensify.  Say two chargers died from an explosion near an ancient.  Without any extra power strength, that ancient would take 5600 damage from that single explosion, and the two subsequent deaths.  With Intensify on, that becomes 8840, instead.  Those are some pretty hefty numbers, and the damage only grows as more enemies die, so don't forget to hold down that trigger!

Edited September 13, 2014 by Ithloniel