Update Aspects Of The Game Design To Modern Standards

[Aggh]

 

Thank you! Very good of you. 

 

The forum software here is just awful! It seems like a misguided attempt at a "web 2.0" forum experience, but it just doesn't work very well. I tried it in Chrome and Maxthon, both Webkit and Trident rendering engines, and it barely works in Chrome and almost doesn't work at all in Trident. Very frustrating!

 

 

Wildcard--The majority of my complaints are not things I would expect to be "beta" issues. I absolutely *have* been through every phase of game development, from conceptualization to post-release, and I know that some or all of these things may change. However, "beta" stage is normally one of polishing and finishing work; by "beta", the conceptualization and design stages are normally done and things get tweaked, rather than changed dramatically.

 

I know it's very late in the game to be suggesting big changes like this, but I can only suggest things as early as I come on. The system as it is now is broken, and it needs fixing. As we've discussed in the thread, there are a lot of way to do this, but something needs to be done.

 

I am not "trashing" the beta; I actually think the game is great, and that's why I so strongly want it to be better.You comment that a bug-free mechanic is not a "flawed" mechanic (when a mechanic cannot have bugs, only the implementation of said mechanic), and then you yourself go on to note that a "mechanic" is a thought process -- I don't understand? Your argument seems to lack internal consistency. I'd be happy to read an explanation, but please try to make your points a little more salient and a little less argumentum ad hominem. Thanks for posting!

 

Aggh--Your more recent posts come off as angry trolling more than well-defined arguments. An example:

 

 

Not only is your statement false -- I played several lower-level missions last night where I ran out of ammo for both my weapons, even after changing to my LATO pistol -- it's offensive and presumptory.

 

I don't "suck". I am actually very skilled at FPS games on the PC; I've been playing them online since Quake III Arena and I was very involved in the Rocket Arena 3 scene. I know when you don't have a problem that someone else is having, it's weird and confusing; trust me, I know. I have been on the other side of this argument, where a user consistently says there is a problem, and I haven't been able to reproduce it.

 

There are a lot of things that can add up to make a problem like this. I was fighting Grinneer, who are heavily armored, and I was solo, against very large groups. Grinneer can be difficult to melee effectively, since they are overhwhelmingly ranged enemies -- not to mention the spawns were wacky; in one mission, I was getting 4-5 commanders PER SPAWN! It was nuts. I was getting unlucky on my ammo drops, too, for sure.

 

However, with either weapon, I was consistently dropping an enemy every 3/4 of a second. Fighting at this level and then being forced to use two revives simply because I just don't have ammo shouldn't happen. I'm sorry.

 

I know it's easy to assume that I'm frustrated because I'm bad at the game, but it's really quite the opposite -- I'm frustrated because I'm very, very good at the game. (╹◡╹)

 

 

No, if you're running out of ammo in lower levels you are bad at the game.  If you're using two revives in lower levels, you're bad at the game.  You sir, are bad at the game.  Stop trying to get it changed just because you're bad at the game.

 

Also, I've been playing FPS since wolf 3d.  I'm just not stupid enough to think that's a worthwhile fact to back up my arguments.  Everyone I know that is genuinely good at games (including some clan mates with professional and semi professional experience in CS) have found this game laughably easy.  In fact, I've had a hard time getting many of my clan mates to keep playing because of how easy it is and b/c it lacks PvP.

 

Based on the way you have described your experience with the game I can now safely say that you are most definitely doing this to make up for the fact that you're bad.  Stop it.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Aggh

[Anelyn]

This thing still going?

 

First: Beta

2nd: DE is making & supporting the game. It's their design and their play mechanics (which may or may not be up to YOUR modern standards)

 

You like the game for what it is, play it and enjoy it. You want a different game (from the bulk of your suggestions which I did read fyi), then search that different game. They are not making the game to suit YOU, or a very few select followers of your ideas / proposals.

 

They broke over 1 mil accounts. This thread has 9 pages with ~50 users. How much of a million is that? :)

[Tsukinoki]

*snip*

Not only is your statement false -- I played several lower-level missions last night where I ran out of ammo for both my weapons, even after changing to my LATO pistol -- it's offensive and presumptory.

*snip*

However, with either weapon, I was consistently dropping an enemy every 3/4 of a second. Fighting at this level and then being forced to use two revives simply because I just don't have ammo shouldn't happen. I'm sorry.

 

I know it's easy to assume that I'm frustrated because I'm bad at the game, but it's really quite the opposite -- I'm frustrated because I'm very, very good at the game. (╹◡╹)

 

If you were good at the game then the Lato shouldn't run out of ammo.  Aim for the grineers head and you will take them down quickly and efficently without wasting ammo.  Not that hard.

Furthermore if you use your movement options you can quickly get into melee range and do a jump slam and shot them all in the head as they slowly get up.  Wont work on heavies but then you dont want to get too close to those ones.

Im not that good at shooters or action games in general, but even I have a decently easy time at the lower level missions, and I want to know what "Lower level" mission you're getting 4 to 5 commanders per spawn.  They are a rare enemy so excuse me if I doubt that it was anywhere near that much.

And if you are dropping enemies that fast you shouldnt run out of ammo or die twice, unless you wasting ammo unnecessarily, as in shooting a corpse or something similar.

Learn to aim and conserve your ammo.

[auxy]

If you were good at the game then the Lato shouldn't run out of ammo.  Aim for the grineers head and you will take them down quickly and efficently without wasting ammo.  Not that hard.

Furthermore if you use your movement options you can quickly get into melee range and do a jump slam and shot them all in the head as they slowly get up.  Wont work on heavies but then you dont want to get too close to those ones.

Im not that good at shooters or action games in general, but even I have a decently easy time at the lower level missions, and I want to know what "Lower level" mission you're getting 4 to 5 commanders per spawn.  They are a rare enemy so excuse me if I doubt that it was anywhere near that much.

And if you are dropping enemies that fast you shouldnt run out of ammo or die twice, unless you wasting ammo unnecessarily, as in shooting a corpse or something similar.

Learn to aim and conserve your ammo.

 

No, if you're running out of ammo in lower levels you are bad at the game.  If you're using two revives in lower levels, you're bad at the game.  You sir, are bad at the game.  Stop trying to get it changed just because you're bad at the game.

 

Also, I've been playing FPS since wolf 3d.  I'm just not stupid enough to think that's a worthwhile fact to back up my arguments.  Everyone I know that is genuinely good at games (including some clan mates with professional and semi professional experience in CS) have found this game laughably easy.  In fact, I've had a hard time getting many of my clan mates to keep playing because of how easy it is and b/c it lacks PvP.

 

Based on the way you have described your experience with the game I can now safely say that you are most definitely doing this to make up for the fact that you're bad.  Stop it.

 

Haha! Such bitterness; tell me gentlemen, exactly what did I do to spur such ire? Your tone reeks of the hatefulness and over-the-top abusiveness that internet trolls spout; I hope you don't really think I will take you seriously?

 

The simple fact that you don't believe such a thing should be possible without being "bad" or "sucking" is evidence enough that there is a problem.

 

If you'd like, I'll happily play with you anytime. (╹◡╹) For what it's worth, though, I've only run out of ammo once in multiplayer (during a defend mission where the game just refused to drop sniper ammo.) Having even just that one extra player there is double the ammo pickups, which means each player only needs half as much ammo (optimally) to win.

Edited April 22, 2013 by auxy

[OxexRaclir]

 

The simple fact that you don't believe such a thing should be possible without being "bad" or "sucking" is evidence enough that there is a problem.

Are you talking words?

[Tsukinoki]

Haha! Such bitterness; tell me gentlemen, exactly what did I do to spur such ire? Your tone reeks of the hatefulness and over-the-top abusiveness that internet trolls spout; I hope you don't really think I will take you seriously?

 

The simple fact that you don't believe such a thing should be possible without being "bad" or "sucking" is evidence enough that there is a problem.

 

If you'd like, I'll happily play with you anytime. (╹◡╹) For what it's worth, though, I've only run out of ammo once in multiplayer (during a defend mission where the game just refused to drop sniper ammo.) Having even just that one extra player there is double the ammo pickups, which means each player only needs half as much ammo (optimally) to win.

Please tell me where I was being bitter.  I was merely suggesting a few basic things, such as aiming.

Also having more than one player doesn't mean there is twice as much ammo drops it just leads to more ammo conservation because you can roughly split the enemies in half.

Now, could you please tell me what you were considering a "lower level" map.  I consider anything up to Pluto "lower level" and I have never seen 4 to 5 commanders per spawn, I generally only see those spawn numbers with ancients at times.

I just want to know what maps are killing you twice and causing you to run out of ammo so quickly even if you can drop them that fast.

Also how does thinking that someone has to be bad at this game to waste ammo like you seem to be evidence that there is a problem?

If you are a good player and bring along properly modded weapons you shouldn't be running out of ammo.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Feam]

AMMO ISSUES

To be frank I didn't see the point in your criticism of the ammo system, but you raised some valid points that should be rationed, not shoved in.

The consolidation of ammo pickups makes quite a lot of sense, and I hope that suggestion is thoroughly considered.

I do not think that unlimited secondary ammo is a requirement though, and I don't think that the random drops are an "unintended malfunction" -

 

People tend to ignore their ingame inventory, A LOT.

So what is the issue? that we should keep ignoring our ammo boxes, and instead completely revamp the ammo pickup system?

Or should they find a way to make the inventory more dominant, efficient, interesting, and a true part of the game?

 

As for hungry hungry weapons like Furis, Viper, and Boar, I believe a flunctuating and more dynamic ammo system would work. Such abnormally fast weapons SHOULD suffer from being ammo-cautious, its part of the balance, but they shouldn't be tortured for it.

 

Basically, Such weapons should simply have a lot more starting ammo, and even a bonus from ammo pickups. This could work with the mod system and the usually-disregarded-Ammo-mod, but it is just not an efficient one.

 

In my opinion, the simplest way to resolve the ammo issues is:

1. Consolidate ammo pickups

2. Buff mods that increase total ammo carried like there's no tomorrow. If a player uses a slow weapon and wants to practically have unlimited ammo, he can pick up that mod. If he uses a fast weapon, he will positively WANT that mod.

3. Make ammo pickups based on percentage of total ammo carried, which further buffs the Ammo-carried mod and assists hungry weapons.

4. (Optional) A more dynamic weapon ammo system! Furis should START with 150% Total ammo UNMODDED, Viper should start with 250%, Boar should start with 200%, and Lex should start with 70%, etc! (All of these are thrown-together values, compared from the current norm of weapons' ammo, and completely unmodded. By that I mean that Viper would get a lot more help from the Ammo Capacity Mod, than Lex would.)

While it is more work and balancing, it gives them more freedom in tuning a weapon.

 

Remember, Ammo Conservation isn't a BUG. It's a challenge, and it should stay that way. (Just a little smarter ^^)

 

ENERGY ISSUES

To be concise... There is much work needed. It is far from a perfect system right now, but I hope you don't overrate the "OUTDATED" fashion of certain features in Warframe; Just because many games have changed their ways, does not mean the older ones are inferior / obsolete.

It's all about finding the right flow.

 

MAP EXPLORATION REWARDS ISSUES

I fully agree. Even the game's LOADING-SCREEN TIPS agree with you, but the game itself does not! (One of the tips mention exploring the map for rare rewards, however, the really are none. You should mention that up there!)

 

Power Slots = Keybinds

You alarmingly called this a "big change", but I don't think it is completely out of the question. The addition of more than 4 powers per class is infact a big change, and they already confirmed that it is very likely to occur, but to allow the "Mod slots are suddenly all up in yo' keyboards!" is just a minor, instinctive feature. I actually thought it works just like that when I first went ingame.

 

However, you have to remember that just because theres an Ability (scratch) Polarity on those slots, it doesnt mean players can't slap a different mod in there. That should be taken notice of if such a design choice is made, so that players won't press "2" to activate their... uhh... Vitality mod?

 

Melee Targeting

That, I cannot agree with. Melee does need a better flow to it, especially uncharged melee, but I don't think that MORE locks (even soft ones) would make it more fun / efficient. At best, more stable, but I believe that it completely contradicts the goal of this game's highpaced flow.

 

Pay2win

endless discussion, I suppose we should all just wait and see how things progress before making this game Free2win with all the yelling. I do hope that they are constantly thinking and looking over their financial plans though, because they are indeed suboptimal.

 

 

 

TLDR ON EVERYTHING EVER

Digital Extremes should remember to make sure this game is properly born - with optimal features / systems and no horrendous faults - before they try to "keep it alive" with more and more content.

Great thread!

[Hollow_Knight]

Why do you have such a problem with ammo?  I only ever run out of ammo on endless defence, and even then only about 10 waves in.

 

Also regardless of the "age" of the idea of having multiple ammo types for individual weapons, why does this make it a bad idea?

 

Unlimited ammo for the side-arms would also require serious rebalancing of most of the pistols.  Viper's primary weakness is lack of ammo, remove that and it'd be unstoppable.

 

And to the crux of the matter, running out of ammo is not really a problem if you brought a half decent melee weapon to the party.  Sure, if you're not using the melee weapon interchangeably with your ranged weapons then you're probably going to run out of ammo.  But that's your choice.  I really don't see how the melee is "unreliable", seems to work just fine for me...

[jhnny]

I disagree with this post and will most likely stop playing if a lot these get implemented.

 

Secondary ammo) Don't complain about your auto-pistol using a lot of ammo... It's an auto-pistol. It's meant to push bullets out as fast as possible. You modded them with S#&$ mods and can't aim, Afuris is a close combat gun set. You need to be able to push all the bullets into them for it to be effective (I should know, I hate that it was the first pistol I bought). They are not meant to kill a boss under any circumstance (except Capt. Vor who is beatable by ground pounding with any heavy enough times). Your choice of weapons and mods is most likely your failing. This does not apply to everyone, I have never run out of paris ammo (only sniper I own), I've run out of afuris ammo several times, while leveling them and only using them and nothing else. You cite L4D as a reason to remove pistol ammo, but there are so many more games where you have to keep track of ammo or die.  

 

Combining ammo types) You speak as if the ammo isn't combined, you've never played a game where each gun drops a different ammo type have you(quake, half-life, any other shooter)? It kinda bugged me that my burston and my gorgon used the same ammo as they are nothing alike. The drop rate is good, I don't run out of ammo using my gorgon, akbolto, and scindo. I think this goes back to the fact that you either can't shoot or don't know how to mod your weapon properly. A good paris can knee drop the jackal in 1-2 shots. Afuris can do it in less than one clip. My friend's latron can do it in 1 shot. There is no need to make sniper weapons and other guns use the same pickup. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Ammo drop rate) WTF, your first three problems with this game are ammo, yet you say you are a good shot. This means you have no mods, the wrong mods or are full of it. I play with 2 other guys regularly and none of us have ever had any issue with ammo, especially on levels as low as jackal. Every other guy drops ammo! Where are infested hiding this ammo? why do they have it? what use is it to a group that has no guns? You want the game to be easier, I don't. I want to run out of ammo, but my guns are too good, they just kill people and I'm left with all these extra bullets. I don't know what else to say.

 

Energy crisis) Really, you want to slash dash more? I've seen a guy do it about every 4 seconds when enemies were around. I've run through a level with out ever being hit on my Loki thanks to invisibility, I soloed Lt. Lech Kril last night with my rhino's invul and my scindo. I really don't think I need these to have a cd. "Allowing truly unlimited usage of these powers would be folly", you said it. Cds are a way to make a power reusable over and over and over. Decoy on cool down would be so OP it wouldn't be funny. 'Hey I don't need to ever shoot again...I have a decoy that I can setup then melee the guy once he's distracted'. Then you say 'But the cd would mean you would get shot afterward.' and I interject 'but then I go invisible and run away till the cd for decoy is up.' You just made loki the speed runner even better. Cds are old themselves (see diablo 2 col downs on blizzard and other spells. back from 2000). While a casting cost in mana does go all the way back to pen and paper games, it seems like the better option as I don't want to hear you wine about the broken cool down times later. I'm kinda surprised you didn't just go with 1,2, and 3 and say it should use ammo and that should drop more from every guy and be combined type. Lets just have energy drop and all our weapons use energy and I want an unlimited pool of energy too... but I want to only be able to use my abilities once every 5-60 seconds. Yeah, this sounds like a great plan...

 

Maps maps maps) The last update added several map updates that broke the mini map for several sections (beta issue). This allowed me to fully realize just how large the levels can be. However, I don't think that every inch of each map should have some S#&$ in it. Also, you want to run around and explore everything, good for you. I like loki speed runs. I want an incentive to finish a mission faster. I want a bonus for only killing the assassination target and nothing else. You like to explore, good for you. I don't expect everyone to have my goals that really only fit loki and volt, don't expect everyone to enjoy searching the whole damn map for another mod. I certainly wouldn't enjoy it. Just as I know a rhino wouldn't enjoy a speed run. (had to add your ammo addiction in here didn't you...)

 

Key-binding powers) Agree (I am truly surprised that I agree with you on anything).

 

Melee Fighting/Something about a bug) I greatly prefer fighting with my cronus over my scindo. I use the scindo because it's only like 300% more effective in killing things. I like speed and may try dual heat or dual zoren at a later time. I tend to stay away from my melee weapon unless I'm trying to level it. Over all I dislike the charging system as the ai plays it smart half the time and runs away. The ground pound is amazing but my friends don't like the screen shake that come from me doing it all the time. They're going to hate me when I finally break down and get a fragor. I have no issues with being hit by guys, or not hitting guys I'm not looking at. Any kind of targeting with melee will be a deal breaker for this game. I like games that require skill even if it's just a small amount. I know you secretly want something like Fallout: New Vegas' targeting, but that just makes games suck. I might as well play some crappy java jumping game if all I'm going to do is hit a key over and over again with out looking around.

 

In general I don't think you want this game, you want something easy where you don't have to think or plan. You listed 1 problem 3 times and even went back to talk about it a 4th time in #5 (disagree again, there should be nothing certain, look what Vor did with his 100% drop rate cronus). I know it's not the same, but 100% anything breaks everything. If you want to complain about stuff complain about stuff that is a real problem with the game:

Rare mods drop too often, There is no point in going beyond wave 5 of a defense mission (aside from farming), bad guys are too easy to kill at later levels, why do alerts still have a ? when I can keep the twitter page up and see the item?... 

[TheTenthDoc]

Why do you have such a problem with ammo?  I only ever run out of ammo on endless defence, and even then only about 10 waves in.

 

 

 

While I think the ammo system is more or less fine, I challenge you to use the Grakata in a high level mission without running out of ammo (without just ignoring it for a far superior pistol/melee). That gun empties clips near-instantly.

[Drusus]

While I think the ammo system is more or less fine, I challenge you to use the Grakata in a high level mission without running out of ammo (without just ignoring it for a far superior pistol/melee). That gun empties clips near-instantly.

 

I'd be curious if you modded it for ammo capacity then, both in magazine and carry capacity.  Weapons with a hail of bullets are intended to be ammo consumptive as a basic point of balancing; that's part of the trade off of streaming bullets like they are out of a fire hose. :)

[Aggh]

Haha! Such bitterness; tell me gentlemen, exactly what did I do to spur such ire? Your tone reeks of the hatefulness and over-the-top abusiveness that internet trolls spout; I hope you don't really think I will take you seriously?

 

The simple fact that you don't believe such a thing should be possible without being "bad" or "sucking" is evidence enough that there is a problem.

 

If you'd like, I'll happily play with you anytime. (╹◡╹) For what it's worth, though, I've only run out of ammo once in multiplayer (during a defend mission where the game just refused to drop sniper ammo.) Having even just that one extra player there is double the ammo pickups, which means each player only needs half as much ammo (optimally) to win.

 

It's not bitterness, I just don't kindly take to liars.  Just live with the fact that you're bad at the game and stop wasting our time.

 

And no, bad players will always play poorly.  Game designers can't make the game easy for everyone or the game will not appeal to the majority of people playing the game.  The fact that you are suggesting that game designers should cater to bad players makes your claim to be a professional game designer all the more questionable.

 

 

While I think the ammo system is more or less fine, I challenge you to use the Grakata in a high level mission without running out of ammo (without just ignoring it for a far superior pistol/melee). That gun empties clips near-instantly.

It's a high dps gun with low damage.  It's a bullet hose that kills quickly in exchange for consuming ammo quickly.  If you aren't modding it to make up for this and using your melee weapons and secondaries to make up for how quickly it consumes ammo, you're doing it wrong.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Aggh

[TheTenthDoc]

I'd be curious if you modded it for ammo capacity then, both in magazine and carry capacity.  Weapons with a hail of bullets are intended to be ammo consumptive as a basic point of balancing; that's part of the trade off of streaming bullets like they are out of a fire hose. :)

 

I'm not saying it's wrong, or that you shouldn't run out of ammo as a trade-off for those guns. I'm just saying people that never run out of ammo for their weapons are probably using weapons that, well, are designed to never run out of ammo (like Hek/Strun/Lex/etc.) rather than ammo-guzzlers. I do like the system as it is.

 

Ammo capacity lets you run Boltor without ever running out, but the Grakata? No way.

Edited April 22, 2013 by TheTenthDoc

[Aggh]

I'm not saying it's wrong, or that you shouldn't run out of ammo as a trade-off for those guns. I'm just saying people that never run out of ammo for their weapons are probably using weapons that, well, are designed to never run out of ammo (like Hek/Strun/Lex/etc.) rather than ammo-guzzlers. I do like the system as it is.

 

Ammo capacity lets you run Boltor without ever running out, but the Grakata? No way.

Grakata is bad anyways.  Making good decisions is part of being good at a game too.  The Grakata running out of ammo has more to do with the Grakata being poorly balanced than any problems with the ammo system.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Aggh

[Ryjeon]

AMMO 7.8.0

 

I see no problem with the current ammo balance. Trick Mag is highly effective at increasing pistol reserves. And I blast away happily with a +clip Boar and can hover between 50-120 ammo reserve as long as I make the effort to pick up the plentiful green shotgun ammo that drops everywhere.  Ammo boxes are also available on the cheap for our 8 consumable slots, although I've never had to use them. My melee weapons rarely go out of ammo. (though I'm certainly quite abashed when they do.)

Edited April 22, 2013 by Ryjeon

[RawGritz]

Grakata is bad anyways.  Making good decisions is part of being good at a game too.  The Grakata running out of ammo has more to do with the Grakata being poorly balanced than any problems with the ammo system.

9dmg per shot. Nuff said. I smell a buff coming on.

[Drusus]

I'm not saying it's wrong, or that you shouldn't run out of ammo as a trade-off for those guns. I'm just saying people that never run out of ammo for their weapons are probably using weapons that, well, are designed to never run out of ammo (like Hek/Strun/Lex/etc.) rather than ammo-guzzlers. I do like the system as it is.

 

Ammo capacity lets you run Boltor without ever running out, but the Grakata? No way.

 

Fair point, but I was driving at the fact that the ammo burn component is a feature of the weapon.  I agree, but I think it's meant to bottom out by design as a trade off in using it and to drive you to consider what to pair it with as part of your loadout.

 

I was just curious if Ammo Drum made a noticeable dent in the bottom out from your point of view.  Thanks for responding.

[Cauldrath]

While ammo is a way to tune the balance of guns, right now there is a direct correlation between high fire rate weapons and low ammo efficiency.  The current system doesn't have room for a gun that has a high fire rate, low dps, and good ammo efficiency to compensate for it.  It also doesn't help that most of these weapons have recoil patterns and low accuracy that makes getting every shot into the head much harder (or even impossible at longer ranges) than single-shot weapons.  Because Mercury is mostly Grineer and most guns don't start with armor piercing damage, the ammo issue is actually at its worst at the lowest levels.  Slap a decent armor piercing mod on these guns and the worst of the ammo problems go away, but telling people that they are bad because they run out of ammo using the Grakata while soloing when you never have problems with (insert weapon with 20+ damage per shot here) while grouped is coming from a skewed viewpoint.

 

Also, everyone please stop recommending that people put clip capacity mods on their guns when they are having ammo problems.  Clip capacity, reload speed, and fire rate do not increase your ammo efficiency at all, but allow you to put bullets out even faster, so it won't ever improve things and may even make it worse.  Even ammo capacity doesn't increase your efficiency per shot or ammo pickup, so over longer missions it will be worse than the equivalent damage upgrade.

[Calayne]

Wow, things have changed over the last few days. Not to mention three extra pages. 

 

But to make a point: I finally got my Viper! Straight out of the oven, I brought it into Mercury: I'd never consider bringing this to anywhere else without knowing what it can do. To be honest, I'm very surprised how it turned out.

 

I used only the Viper in this game, killed many dozens of enemies, and at the end of the mission, I still had left over ammunition. Not to mention in Saturn, where heavy Grineer started spawning, it could manage just as well. My strategy for using it is the same as always: Burst, burst, burst, a habit from my Sicarus. Headshot after headshot, it takes 7 bullets average to take down a Grineer. But I noticed a few interesting things while playing:

 

This gun is absolutely INSANE against enemies, fired full-auto, in their face. The damage was enough to wipe out a Flame-thrower Grineer in two or three clips or so, with +5% AP. That was a very short span of time. I finally got what Tsukinoki was saying: These weapons are Fother Muckers. Big time. And if used properly  by going for head shots on non-heavy enemies, my ammo would've lasted a lot longer. It choked out somewhere in the middle of the mission, but I ended it with 80+ to spare.

 

I think this definitely gives credit to Tsukinoki's argument from way back. It's devastating.

 

But, I would still like to maintain my ground on two things: Universal ammo, one for long guns and one for secondary, and scaled ammunition pick-ups. Sorry, if it seems like this is a ridiculous point everyone's been tirelessly defending: It is a game worth fighting for, after all. But the thing is, the difference between weapons is still very obvious: Some guns never run out of ammo (Thus countering the argument that we're supposed to "Ration" our munitions.), and the same amount of ammo is given to the same weapon type, regardless of its "Personality". 

 

I've been playing my Latron for days now, and just got my Viper. Using both, I can say I'd almost never have to worry about ammunition (And I just Trick-Magged my Viper! First priority after AP, really). But for those people who say you'll never run out of ammo, you're right, and I almost never face that either. But that should be a bad thing: Many of the posters here do not condone spray and pray, and for very good reason. But, I could spray and pray with my Latron and never feel the ramifications, though if my Viper misses a few shots per enemy, then it's time to hibernate the poor rabbit. So there's the irony: High accuracy weapons actually have less ramifications should you miss, as opposed to low-accuracy ones! Rather counter intuitive.

 

I think some scaling would be good: Either up for High-fire-rate weapons or down for the high-damage-low-fire-rate ones, I think they're both viable. Higher accuracy and higher damage weapons should get less ammo, because the chances to hit one nice head shot is much higher, with much better pay-off, as opposed to their high-fire-rate, low-damage counterparts. With high-fire-rate weapons, it's just too unpredictable sometimes.

 

I have a suggestion: Whether or not we ever begin compiling long gun and secondaries into two universal ammunition, lower all the ammunition count. Have it as an absolute amount, but have it low enough that even high-damage weapons feel the pinch if they're too reckless. Then just increase the amount of ammo per drop for those who have ammo-max mods in their gun (In addition to the Artefacts of course), as well as scaling max ammo. Since DE does not rely on platinum to obtain Artefacts, and not everyone would choose to use it, I think it's only fair.

 

The benefits are two fold: No more spray and pray for many guns, and true customisability of a play style: Guns blazing, or snipers. At this point, I'm really just a sniper with two different guns.

 

I understand that the high ROF weapons are pretty insane now: My Braton just received a bit of an upgrade, too, and does pretty well. But to focus on the message: It's not the high ROF ammo I necessarily want to scale up, I just think it'd be fair to scale down the high-damage ones. And since everyone agrees that spray and pray is bad, and we should rely more on our melee and not just our side-arms and primary weapon, I think this is a direction we can all head to.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Calayne