I'm Sick Of Rng And Drop Table Dilutes

[GrandSirThebus]

Because my post was not reacted to in this other thread I'll post a link to it here as it is at least somewhat relevant to the conversation.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/298960-update-145-operation-cryotic-front/?p=3410197

 

Upon re-reading it now it has far less (and potentially potentially rude sounding) points than I initially wanted to include. For some context I prefer taking "lesser" builds and making them awesome. I'm not asking for a handout, I'm asking you to make me fight for it. Stunlocking a boss isn't a fight, it's an overly long execution.

 

Also,  I feel this is relevent. http://kotaku.com/how-to-balance-an-rpg-1625516832

Destiny is apparently fixing it's loot system. Perhaps we can look at them as a guinea pig.

[WereFowl]

Mod drops are pretty obnoxious too. Even some of the uncommon mods have an insanely low drop rate when you factor in that they only drop from certain rare enemies. The whole system feels like a money spinner, rather than something in a proper game.

[Shezo]

Correct, like i said, they didnt get what they wanted the first day and they flip.

 

 

If grind isnt content then every game is history has very little content because grind is a standard in games.

And grind and rng is also a standard in loot games, if you dont like it we should suggest some ideas that keep people playing for a long time.

Because that's the main reason for this.

 

Uh-huh.

WoW has raids and stuff, that's a bit beyond simple grind, figuring out encounters, all that stuff.

ME 3 mp had map packs, new guns and toys, new faction, it was enough for me.

Standard or not, doesn't matter, many games use token system or pseudo rng or have more indepth crafting or whatnot.

 

I mean, should warframe be a game that fun on it's own, beyond novelty phase, lotsa problems wouldn't be so glaring, game could stand on it's own, without the need of constant rng-grind life-support.

Also, warframe rng grinding is very prone to cause burn out, since you're limited only by keys, and not by time or whatnot gating.

 

 

 

Grind is the game.

RNG grind is the question.

If you didn't need to grind, why would you play? Why would you play when you are just handed stuff without any work?

Sure, you may play for a little while, but after that? For how long would it be fun to play a game without any rewards?

Think about it for a second. Every new player on Warframe becoming rank 16 with all slots and items unlocked and waiting for them. Because yea, that's how a game without any grind is.

 

Uh, fun, challenge, not good enough reasons to stick around ? (which WF severely lacks) 

Give some tangible, long-term goal, if you can't go without that kinda stuff, but engaging game is the main thing.

[vaugahn]

Uh-huh.

WoW has raids and stuff, that's a bit beyond simple grind, figuring out encounters, all that stuff.

ME 3 mp had map packs, new guns and toys, new faction, it was enough for me.

Standard or not, doesn't matter, many games use token system or pseudo rng or have more indepth crafting or whatnot.

 

I mean, should warframe be a game that fun on it's own, beyond novelty phase, lotsa problems wouldn't be so glaring, game could stand on it's own, without the need of constant rng-grind life-support.

Also, warframe rng grinding is very prone to cause burn out, since you're limited only by keys, and not by time or whatnot gating.

 

New tilesets, new guns, new warframes. Yeah, we've got all of those.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you just don't really enjoy the game from the get-go and the amount of grind is just making it worse. For many people, Warframe is a fun game on its own.

 

Now, I'm not saying our loot tables can't be improved. There's always room for improvement. But if the only thing keeping you coming back is the grind for new stuff, and you don't think Warframe is actually fun, then why bother?

[birdei]

I really hate token systems when the items either; A) cost a lot and B) there are A LOT of items to exchange for. How many items (parts, not completed items) are in the void anyway? Now imagine you just started and have to save up a mountain of tokens to get almost everything. That be insane and the grind will be even worst. By the time you grind enough points, better stuff will already come out. Token system is only great when you just need a handful of specific items.

[xkillo32]

just got 3 ak bronco links from 3 t4 captures

[WereFowl]

Thing is with warframe if you wan the new frames you have to pay for them one way or another ( need to purchase platinum for either the slots or the frames if you can't be bothered jumping through the hoops they put in for the players who want to get the item in game)

 

As for the items, there are allot of items that you only have to grind up your rank and then dump, each iweapon types has maybe 1-3 good ones and the rest and just junk.

 

The crafting system is also grind-tastic without any real skill (Oxium anyone?) This wouldn't be too bad if there was a large amount of variation, but there's noit.

[Taranis49]

That actually happened twice. The first time dataminers also found that Reaper Blade wasn't even in the drop tables all the while DEvs were claiming that everything's fine. If it weren't for dataminers DE would have taken forever to fix that

 

Hell, it's happened at least twice - the drop table's always had major issues since U8 when the Void was first introduced. The Latron Prime receiver had a 0.67% drop chance, same thing happened in U9/U10, the Bronco Prime receiver was absent from the table post-U9, etc.

 

It was especially smelly in those days, since you also basically had to shell out for the packs to get keys (or bum a ride from someone who did); since there wasn't a really viable free method to get keys (Survival wasn't around yet). As noted, it was guys datamining the tables that showed just how absurd the tables were.

 

By U10, when drop table shenanigans happened again, we were told "we're sorry it happened again, we know it looks bad"... whereupon they encrypted the tables within a couple weeks of that "for security reasons". One of the advertised functions of the Codex was to allow us to fully disclose the void and other mission drop tables, functionality it was supposed to have by "Update 11, at the latest"... yeah...

 

There's definitely been a need for someone to "watch the watchmen" in this case.

[Feallike]

Ok... this is the only time i am going to say this.

 

 

DE intentionally breaks the drop table every prime access to make you want to buy it, then a couple updates later fixes them.

 

 

Come on people, it was obvious. >.> I mean every prime access the Prime tables "Break" its not a coincidence, its just the DE's mark-(gets shot by DE worker)

Edited September 28, 2014 by Feallike

[MonsieurZero]

The Orokin Void is something that I view as a giant casino. Each mission type and tower level acts as a different slot machine. Each slot machine has their own methods of giving you what they want, be it rotations or what have you. However, instead of inserting money into the machine, you are inserting time. The randomization doesn't alter depending on your contribution to whichever slot machine you pick, whether it be T1 Survival or T3 Exterminate. Every time you gamble your time, you have, at best, a one in X (X being the number of drops available in the designated drop table) chance to get what you desire, and this doesn't change regardless of how many times you choose to gamble.

[Loswaith]

...

 

I would totally love it if they changed RNG into an effort = reward system that may force you to do a lot of grinding, but at least you know when it will end. However, I can also see the risk of a system based on effort = currency = reward because the really active players will collect a lot of currency and thus can buy everything that comes out. This could possibly be fixed tho with a system where you need to 'place' the currency on a specific item before you can earn it.

So let's call it 'solar credits' for normal items. You gain no solar credits normally, but once you have selected for example 'kubrow egg', the solar credits will start to gather for 'kubrow egg', you can't 'place' the credits on your own i.e. it is not independent of the item you are grinding for. So, if I want a kubrow egg and a nyx chassi, I will first have to select kubrow egg and farm for it, then select nyx chassi and farm for it. Tho personally I think warframes should be RNG as while the stack might be smaller, you will feel like you got something special i.e. doing T4D will give you a chance of getting Nyx Prime BP, Loki Prime Systems, or Ember Prime BP, but a larger chance of getting credits or mods i.e. items that can't be bought with 'void credits'. Otherwise you'd need a grind wall like 500 VC and each mission gives you VC equivalent to their level - T1 - 1, T2 - 2, T3 - 3 etc. and also each 5 waves or 5 minutes (maybe even a bonus every 20th wave or minute).

 

But in the end, brainstorming for us doesn't really matter because it is a risky change that I think they won't make. It is one of those choices that make you or break you. Doing anything wrong could make the community &!$$ed or bored.

 

They dont really even need to introduce an additional currency but have a conversion system of sorts locked into the specific item type.  Something like you can convert 4-5 (an example) duplicate piece's of a prime item into another piece of the same Item.  (A darvo exchange emporium if you will).

For example say you are looking for a Nyx Prime systems.  Over the cource of looking for the systems blueprint you have accumulated 4 or 5 Nyx Prime helmet blueprints (or could be combinations of any nyx prime bits).  You take those unwanted Nyx Prime Helmet Blueprints to a converter and can get a Nyx Prime Systems, a Chassis or even the complete frame blueprint for your trouble.  However you cant use those nyx prime helms to get a loki prime systems (you need loki prime parts for that) or even a glaive prime (you need glaive prime parts for those).  Make the converted pieces untradeable as well to avoid potential trade market exploits.

 

This then resuts in you need to still get pieces for that new prime (no pre stockpiling of tokens) as it is released, there is still some grind required (you have to get more pieces to exchange the one you need) but it has limits and it removes many duplicates from the game that are otherwise sitting on characters unused (it may even give them back some value). The risk is minimal for DE as well but can keep them honest too (not saying they arent just oversights can happen as seen previously), because if they have that one part's drop really low players will just exchange many other pieces for it.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Loswaith

[Derpo]

Ok... this is the only time i am going to say this.

 

 

DE intentionally breaks the drop table every prime access to make you want to buy it, then a couple updates later fixes them.

 

 

Come on people, it was obvious. >.> I mean every prime access the Prime tables "Break" its not a coincidence, its just the DE's mark-(gets shot by DE worker)

This is highly congruent with my own experience. DE purposely makes top gear COMPLETELY unavailable outside the item shop, due to some critical component being absent from any drop table. Vay Hek keys, for example, were disabled for a month by a 'bug' whereby only Delta key components dropped. The lack of transparency in the drop tables is not accidental, and the occasional complete failure of the drop tables is not accidental.

 

Let's face it, only a tiny fraction of players reads the forums. Therefore, the majority of players are, right now, thinking, "Drat, that's the tenth 40-minute T3 survival mission that dropped nothing I haven't had for six months. I guess I'm just unlucky. Screw it, I'll buy the blasted thing from DE." In fact, the new prime gear that our forum-challenged friend is farming for has a zero or perhaps astronomically low drop rate. The game is rigged from the start, as someone once told me in Fallout NV.

 

So this is working for DE, after a fashion. Nothing we say here is going to have an impact UNLESS we can come up with a credible alternative revenue stream for DE. Making payroll, let's face it, trumps making you and me happy.

 

You guys are going to hate me for this, because DE might take this advice. But here's the fairly obvious way for DE to get out of the 'cheating drop tables' trap.

 

RESEARCH. Farming for new gear should drop not components but 'research material', documents or broken artifacts that require a week or even a few weeks of real time to complete. DE would collect revenue on 'Research Acceleration' boosters and platinum buyouts for research in progress.

 

This way, a rational player might farm research documents or broken artifacts (to reverse-engineer) until a weapon was almost done. So here's an example of DE making a little money off of this situation:

  1.  Given that the player has 3 components fully researched, of 4 required components for a unique prime weapon

  2.  Given that the final research material for the new prime weapon drops

  3.  Given that the player has 2 weeks remaining on the research on the final component

 

It follows that:  DE makes money when the player decides to pay (let's say) 20 platinum to buy out the research on the last remaining prime component.

 

Alternatively:

 

  1.  Given: that the player farms ALL the 'research material' for a new prime weapon

  2.  Given: the player has all the research material, and all of it has 2 weeks of research time remaining

 

It follows that:  DE makes money when the player decides to pay (let's say) 20 platinum to buy a research booster that gets the research done in 1 week, not 2 weeks. Or he pays (let's say) 50 platinum to get the research done in 3 days.

 

As a 'compensation' to players, DE might want to cut the time required to manufacture weapons to a more reasonable number. A basic sword should only take an hour or two, whereas a highly-automated weapon would only take at most 6 hours or maybe 8 hours in real life. I watched a competent gunsmith take parts from 5 different AR15 rifles and make a select-fire semi/full auto version that worked first try...in about 45 minutes. A tenno, even a tenno on Quaaludes, should be able to do the same thing in 6 hours, don't you think?

 

That's my proposal. No more 'accidentally' broken drop tables. DE makes its money on research buy-outs and boosters. Players don't have to datamine to prove that DE is cheating us, and DE gets out of the fibbing and cheating business. Seriously, since when does a true Canadian beer-drinker want to have to fib anyway? It just would not sit well with them. I know way too many Canadians. I'm a US citizen, and I admit most Canadians are better human beings than I. Let's all stop tormenting true blue, honest and good to the core Canadian devs with a revenue model that requires dishonesty.

 

Incidentally, if you have a better revenue model in mind, I'm not married to this idea. It just seems obvious to me is all. I'm not heaven's gift to online gaming revenue.

 

(edit: I decided to flesh this out and give it its own thread. Please make any comments on the new thread - thanks!)

Edited September 28, 2014 by Derpo

[Grulos]

Ok... this is the only time i am going to say this.

 

 

DE intentionally breaks the drop table every prime access to make you want to buy it, then a couple updates later fixes them.

 

 

Come on people, it was obvious. >.> I mean every prime access the Prime tables "Break" its not a coincidence, its just the DE's mark-(gets shot by DE worker)

They intentionally break them, of course.

 

But then they just don't care anymore and leave it broken.

[xethier]

Wow. Every time there's a new prime released this thread pops up. (or derivations of it)

yes, the past has shown some extremely "odd", shall we say, behavior from DE on the drop tables. Wait until the next one and these items will be far easier to acquire and the new ones won't be.

 

Drop dilution is far from the problem, it's just what we see, so people tend to blame it. Drop rates are the issue.

Take t3e for example, 7 items in the table, but the sicarus prime barrel is somewhere around 60% leaving the rest at sub 8% chance.

If these drop rates were more normalized it would allow for larger pools of items in the system and an easier / cheaper chance to get it. (depending on if you're buying or grinding) <-- this is the only solution to fixing the problem without altering whole aspects of the game as it stands.

 

Now... that said. there already IS a token system in the game. It's just not controlled by DE, instead it's controlled by the players.

Run 30 missions, get 3-4 items that are actually worth selling, sell them for platinum, rinse::repeat until you've got the platinum you need to buy that one missing piece of gear to finish your set.

 

"Oh! But I don't like / want to trade!"

 

Then quit griping about the grind! -- The system exists as it stands. It's not perfect, hell I don't even like it much, but it DOES work!

A person who's unwilling to use the system that exists because of whatever reason and expects the other aspects of the game to change to accommodate his wishes is naive at best and just plain ignorant at worst.

 

A token system as defined by most of these threads would absolutely murder my interest in doing the void. I run those missions for gear to sell on market, which in turn means i can buy the missing pieces of gear / cosmetic items that I want.

 

The system works great for players that use every available aspect of it. But if you're unwilling to actually think about it and use them, then you're going to be frustrated.

Edited September 30, 2014 by xethier

[Grulos]

Wow. Every time there's a new prime released this thread pops up. (or derivations of it)

yes, the past has shown some extremely "odd", shall we say, behavior from DE on the drop tables. Wait until the next one and these items will be far easier to acquire and the new ones won't be.

 

Drop dilution is far from the problem, it's just what we see, so people tend to blame it. Drop rates are the issue.

Take t3e for example, 7 items in the table, but the sicarus prime barrel is somewhere around 60% leaving the rest at sub 8% chance.

If these drop rates were more normalized it would allow for larger pools of items in the system and an easier / cheaper chance to get it. (depending on if you're buying or grinding) <-- this is the only solution to fixing the problem without altering whole aspects of the game as it stands.

 

Now... that said. there already IS a token system in the game. It's just not controlled by DE, instead it's controlled by the players.

Run 30 missions, get 3-4 items that are actually worth selling, sell them for platinum, rinse::repeat until you've got the platinum you need to buy that one missing piece of gear to finish your set.

 

"Oh! But I don't like / want to trade!"

 

Then quit griping about the grind! -- The system exists as it stands. It's not perfect, hell I don't even like it much, but it DOES work!

A person who's unwilling to use the system that exists because of whatever reason and expects the other aspects of the game to change to accommodate his wishes is naive at best and just plain ignorant at worst.

 

A token system as defined by most of these threads would absolutely murder my interest in doing the void. I run those missions for gear to sell on market, which in turn means i can buy the missing pieces of gear / cosmetic items that I want.

 

The system works great for players that use every available aspect of it. But if you're unwilling to actually think about it and use them, then you're going to be frustrated.

Small problem: Noone buys items everyone has loads of.

 

Token system > pseudo-random RNG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RNG

[vaugahn]

Small problem: Noone buys items everyone has loads of.

 

Token system > pseudo-random RNG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RNG

 

The token system would not be a good solution, at least not in the form typically presented on these forums. In fact, it might even be worse than what we have now.

[xethier]

Small problem: Noone buys items everyone has loads of.

 

Token system > pseudo-random RNG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RNG

 

then don't sell those items.

 

you run 30 missions, you aren't going to have the same crap items from every single one.

At least one or two of those is going to reward you with an item that is capable of bringing in some platinum.

 

sure it takes work, but you *can* get something for your efforts. and you *can* use that to get the item you're looking for. 

so, in essence, there's your token system.

[Senketsu_]

I hate people who say stuff like this. Dude if warframe is gonna continue to be a dedicated f2p(a game that a f2per can obtain anything a premium member can) it needs to fix this. Although warframe doesn't need to be f2p to get alot of players, it still cares about its community and will likely change the rng or something about it

you clearly dont understand a joke when you see one

[Derpo]

then don't sell those items.

 

you run 30 missions, you aren't going to have the same crap items from every single one.

At least one or two of those is going to reward you with an item that is capable of bringing in some platinum.

 

sure it takes work, but you *can* get something for your efforts. and you *can* use that to get the item you're looking for. 

so, in essence, there's your token system.

For starters, you're right about the 'token system'. It's a ridiculous duplication of the platinum currency already in place. Proliferation of currencies is a way to unnecessarily complicate a game economy, and it would only make the game confusing and more frustrating. Platinum IS the token system. Two points for Xethier.

 

However, trading is not a good answer. Trading is expensive, it's inconvenient, it's a timesuck, and it forces me to deal with hustlers.

 

Ever noticed what the credit cost of trading Platinum is? Thousands of credits per Plat. I know, because I help newbies in my clan, Talon.

 

The change in clans will surprise people that know me. What happened is Tenno Council kicked me during tax season (when I'm too busy to sleep, let alone play games), so now I'm in Talon. Talon is MUCH less exclusive, which is fine, and it has lots of newbies.

 

The point is that Nine times out of ten, they can't afford to receive the stuff I'm giving them. It's a bad trading system.

 

Having to go to a dojo to trade is an unneeded aggravation. Right now, presumable a millennium or more BEFORE Warframe's supposed timeframe, I can sit at my computer and order anything from mac and cheese to a Tesla car from Amazon. I can buy the Tesla car, used, on Ebay. I don't have to put my pajamas on and stumble out of the house and drive to the Oort Cloud to make the trade. DE has MMO'd the trade function. They've made it inconvenient, so I avoid trading.

 

I only have a few minutes every hour to play games. I'm very busy and I just can't hang around for an hour to make a trade. I don't have time to post on this forum, for that matter, especially since DE deletes entire threads (just yesterday they deleted a major thread). I can't justify spending my scarce leisure time on trading for virtual swag. And, frankly, I don't want to.

 

There's a reason I don't sell used cars for a living. Used car salesmen are hustlers. No offense to any used car salesmen, but they are generally highly veracity-challenged. I don't want to be one, I don't want to deal with one. I trade with people I know, with rare exceptions. I don't want my progression to require dealing with sharks.

 

There it is. Xethier is mostly right, but his idea that 'the status quo is perfect' is harmful and obstructionist. Not that there's anything wrong with Xethier himself, he seems okay to me. I just have a problem with people shutting down threads because 'the way it is now is fine, you just need to get over it' type posts.

 

edit: tone

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/

Edited October 1, 2014 by Derpo

[Derpo]

The token system would not be a good solution, at least not in the form typically presented on these forums. In fact, it might even be worse than what we have now.

vaugahn is right, as usual

 

 

----------

Please consider putting major posts in http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/. Nothing is ever deleted from there.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Derpo

[InvaderMEEN]

First things first: Remove the dang Keys/Cores/single Orokin Cells from the Void drop table. Then remove duplicate parts from the drop tables.

 

If they did this (which would probably take maybe an hour at most), Void grinding would improve good enough to last until they figure out a better Void reward system.

[xethier]

For starters, you're right about the 'token system'. It's a ridiculous duplication of the platinum currency already in place. Proliferation of currencies is a way to unnecessarily complicate a game economy, and it would only make the game confusing and more frustrating. Platinum IS the token system. Two points for Xethier.

 

However, trading is not a good answer. Trading is expensive, it's inconvenient, it's a timesuck, and it forces me to deal with hustlers.

 

Ever noticed what the credit cost of trading Platinum is? Thousands of credits per Plat. I know, because I help newbies in my clan, Talon.

 

The change in clans will surprise people that know me. What happened is Tenno Council kicked me during tax season (when I'm too busy to sleep, let alone play games), so now I'm in Talon. Talon is MUCH less exclusive, which is fine, and it has lots of newbies.

 

The point is that Nine times out of ten, they can't afford to receive the stuff I'm giving them. It's a bad trading system.

 

Having to go to a dojo to trade is an unneeded aggravation. Right now, presumable a millennium or more BEFORE Warframe's supposed timeframe, I can sit at my computer and order anything from mac and cheese to a Tesla car from Amazon. I can buy the Tesla car, used, on Ebay. I don't have to put my pajamas on and stumble out of the house and drive to the Oort Cloud to make the trade. DE has MMO'd the trade function. They've made it inconvenient, so I avoid trading.

 

I only have a few minutes every hour to play games. I'm very busy and I just can't hang around for an hour to make a trade. I don't have time to post on this forum, for that matter, especially since DE deletes entire threads (just yesterday they deleted a major thread). I can't justify spending my scarce leisure time on trading for virtual swag. And, frankly, I don't want to.

 

There's a reason I don't sell used cars for a living. Used car salesmen are hustlers. No offense to any used car salesmen, but they are generally highly veracity-challenged. I don't want to be one, I don't want to deal with one. I trade with people I know, with rare exceptions. I don't want my progression to require dealing with sharks.

 

There it is. Xethier is mostly right, but his idea that 'the status quo is perfect' is harmful and obstructionist. Not that there's anything wrong with Xethier himself, he seems okay to me. I just have a problem with people shutting down threads because 'the way it is now is fine, you just need to get over it' type posts.

 

edit: tone

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/

 

i unequivocally state, for the record, that i do not believe the status quo is perfect. trading could be VASTLY improved in many ways. but that deals with a separate issue to the token system, drop tables and drop rates.

 

and i'll go one further and say that i don't like trading as it stands now, for the very same reasons you don't.

 

but that doesn't keep me from spending a play session or two between prime access updates to put together trade lists and spend a few hours trading instead of playing.

[Liminal]

Problem is again guraranteed reward.

This current system with RNG forces you to play more. Yes, I know it is frustrating, I spent 3 entire days farming for an egg and then when I had bought a few kubrows, I kept finding them. But it is as you pointed out a cheap way to guarantee that people keep playing.

Or the opposite. It's what's dirven me and a few friends away. If we had a progress bar with a guaranteed reward at the end we'd just keep plowing through the missions, but the uncertainty and lack of feeling of accomplishment is the largest factor in player burnout IMO.

Edited October 1, 2014 by The_Doc

[dashashou]

hmm , and your odds of accaully getting an item go down after 3 runs and become pointless after 5 at least on your key. 

 

DE does this every time  to the point where i don't even bother  with the hard to get parts till a week later -  i go run  my 3 runs per key , more with my clan mates burning their 3 keys -  then take a 2 week break off  cause it's too frustrating to do otherwise 

 

and it's a true if sad state that DE is using plat as a player controlled token system  now when i see a scindo handle i think 20-40 plat .

 

The rng and grind is adding up and just burning everyone out - i'm mr-17 and i know i won't hit 18