Refining Zorencoptering Aka Removing The Zorens From Zorencoptering

[Vanadium]

So, I posted this in Weapons Feedback. I guess it was the wrong section. Trying again, because this is something I really want.

 

Nope, this is not a Zorencoptering bash thread.

 

TL;DR: If Zorencoptering is here to stay, it should be refined, which may include removing it from melee weapons and just having it as something Warframes do.

 

Devstream #46 kind of left an idea hanging: "Zorencoptering is like skiing in Tribes."

 

Pretty much, yeah. For those who don't know about skiing and it's rich history or about Tribes and it's rich...everything, I'm not going spend time on the exposition of days of gaming yore (also, shame on you and "what r u? casul?"). Point is, skiing was eventually refined, having it's own indicative graphical effect and being easy to use/understand, but hard to master (kind of what DE wants for mobility and melee).

 

I feel what needs to be done is for Zorencoptering not to be affected simply by what melee weapon you're using. Especially now with heavy melee being weak, lack of 'coptering is another deterrent for heavy melee use. I would say that heavy melee needs the gap-closing that 'coptering affords the most, since the slow swings make it easy for the bad AI navigation to just wander off or vampire leap away from you, while you're left in a 1-2s combo. Coptering is necessary to close range fast for heavies and to chase them down again when you miss.

 

Zorencoptering also gives speed to Warframes that shouldn't have speed, breaking any inherent drawbacks. "But Zorens are a drawback!" They were, apparently they're pretty good now. There are also a handful of other very viable weapons that also copter, like Scoliac, Bo (Prime), and Fangs (Prime). Without beating around the bush, I'm talking almost solely about Rhino. To get some parallel, the Heavy armor in Tribes always had difficulty with mobility and that was its main drawback. Rhino is covered in armor and has an ability which spawns more armor. Shouldn't he be heavy? Shouldn't Iron Skin work like...Iron Skin from Dark Souls? But enough about that.

 

Finally, Zorencoptering just doesn't make sense: I spin fast, so I fly forward at ludicrous speeds. Why? Because my melee weapon is light and fast. Science. Tenno Science.

 

Inspirations/Ideas:

 

My head keeps going back to the Long Jump Module from Half-Life 1.

 

Of course, that was a big honking backpack when you picked it up. I'm envisioning little boosters integrated into each frame, at points that would propel your center of mass forward (top of the shoulders, lower back, hips, and maybe thighs).

 

But, not like this:

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still rad, tho

 

Because, y'know, we need room for our Birdlifters.

 

Another option is just sick Ninja jumping:

 

Ninja jumping fits in a game where we're supposed to be ninjas (honestly, I've given up on Tenno being space ninjas).

 

Then there's Titanfall's hip boosters:

 

 

Titanfall's parkour is smooth and well-implemented. Granted, the rest of the game is pretty bland (it's a shooter that works), but at least they got this part right. Titanfall's boosters makes mentioning Attack of Titan redundant. They're pretty much the same thing.

 

For me, little boosters on the frames is the only way abilities like Slash Dash, Tail Wind, Rhino Charge, etc. make any sense. I don't see how these Warframes can propel themselves, instantly, without moving their legs. So, it'd help with that to illustrate the function of these powers and make them more visually appealing.

 

A quick 'class' list:

 

Fastest: Excal, Zephyr;

These frames already have the ability to do this, obviously there's a lot of the frame dedicated towards this feature, and there is very little weighing them down (Zephyr's Oxium even counteracts weight [science], Excalibur is naked)

 

Fast: Ember, Mag, Loki, Ash, Hydroid, Vauban, Volt;

These frames are already fast/light and the mechanisms for their powers probably take up less space (Ash, Loki), or their abilities could assist the boost (Flame jets for Ember, magleving for Mag, water jets for Hyrdroid, some kind of reverse Bounce for Vauban, mini-ion drives [i don't know what I'm talking about] for Volt)

 

Medium: Banshee, Mirage, Nekros, Nova, Nyx, Oberon, Saryn, Trinity, Valkyr;

These frames can simply 'do it' and don't have too much weighing them down.

 

Slow: Frost, Rhino;

The systems used by these Frames to manifest their powers, plus their overall weight (making a localized Blizzard on Phobos must require hefty hardware) requires a lot of energy to propel them and they simply don't have the room to support larger boost modules without being excessively bulky.

 

Just what I think. It could be argued "Oh, but Rhino has Charge," and I think that would be the extent of his boost. He knocks opponents down pretty much with his accelerated mass alone. 

 

I just don't want to see Zorencoptering left as is. I think it's a potentially fun feature, but is held back by the fact that it's kind of an intentional glitch or side-effect of very fast melee. It should have more presence, shouldn't be held back by what melee weapon you're using (but maybe held back by the weight of your equipment). I think it would help Warframe feel like a more polished game.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[Jeloxale]

You expect me to read all of this?

For what I saw while skimming seems good.

[Aciaj613]

I for one do not like coptering at all but this could change my mind, I want to feel like the warframes should have an armor class, Not rhino primes being faster than Lokis.

 

You sir get a +1.

[Coatduck]

Heavy melee should copter.
See Thor

 

I don't think coptering should be linked to warframes, because light warframes don't need the speed and heavy ones do.
That's not to say I don't copter around like a crazy person with my loki, but I'm also refereed to as the Copter Queen, often doing double and triple copters around the map.

also maybe fix the derpy little run that we do.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Coatduck

[ReizoRyuu]

I like this, it would make a coptering loki faster than a vanguard rhino (as I understood it you don't want to change their basespeeds, but their coptering speeds right?) and it would make zephyr the blazing fast avian she's supposed to be.

[GottaGoFast]

Amphis es numero uno. Hue Hue Hue Hue Hue.

[taiiat]

i like the concept, i guess. i don't really like tying it to Warframes themselves, because faster ones would always get more of a bonus, and that isn't what people are looking for. (though tbh, Flip Jumps keep up speed very well)

 

but we definitely should have things reversed for Melee Weapons in general. it's the big Heavy ones that need that gap closing the most, yet they don't have any to speak of.

 

while the light fast ones that don't punish you for missing a strike, have tons of it. so much gap closing that you can gap close with an Enemy that's in the next room...

 

 

but yeah, if SpinDashing is going to be some skill based Movement tool (still feels like an exploit currently, and not a feature) then... it should really be Melee independant.

 

 

You expect me to read all of this?

no offense, but if that post was too long for you to read, i'm not sure you belong here.

 

 

-snip-

staying true to your name i see.

[Krustable]

if its tied to frames, i think its fine as long as the slow frames are at ~80% speed, and fastest are ~120%, so there isn’t too much variance

[xethier]

i like the concept, i guess. i don't really like tying it to Warframes themselves, because faster ones would always get more of a bonus, and that isn't what people are looking for. (though tbh, Flip Jumps keep up speed very well)

 

but we definitely should have things reversed for Melee Weapons in general. it's the big Heavy ones that need that gap closing the most, yet they don't have any to speak of.

 

while the light fast ones that don't punish you for missing a strike, have tons of it. so much gap closing that you can gap close with an Enemy that's in the next room...

 

 

but yeah, if SpinDashing is going to be some skill based Movement tool (still feels like an exploit currently, and not a feature) then... it should really be Melee independant.

 

-snip-

 

I believe that tying it to the warframes themselves makes perfect sense. There's a reason why the sprint speeds are what they are. Zorencoptering renders the differences meaningless. (which is why many people love or hate it)

 

Removing melee weapons from the equation makes the most sense, allowing parkour moves that can increase the movement abilities above and beyond a simple jump/flip.

 

and.... that pretty much makes zorencoptering not a "thing" anymore once you get to this point.

 

I'd just say, as a meet-half-way solution that all melee weapons allow for a coptering "move" and leave it at that.

this would limit the immersion breaking aspects of the way zorencoptering works now and make for some interesting ideas for future melee weapons. you could also break the tie to weapon speed and give it it's own mechanic. (and mods)

Edited September 29, 2014 by xethier

[taiiat]

I'd just say, as a meet-half-way solution that all melee weapons allow for a coptering "move" and leave it at that.

 

you could also break the tie to weapon speed and give it it's own mechanic. (and mods)

- that's kind've what i meant. independant of what Melee Weapon you're using, but i don't really care if it's still a 'Melee move'. it just shouldn't matter what Melee you're using. because the Weapons that do this exploit well, are the ones that need it the least.

 

- i'd like that. for once i'd actually encourage new Mods, to allow users to specialize in pure movement, meaning they won't be improving their Combat much.

it also helps equalize the SpinDashes, which is what we want anyways, to not have just a small few Melee's be 'the one'.

[xethier]

-snip-

- i'd like that. for once i'd actually encourage new Mods, to allow users to specialize in pure movement, meaning they won't be improving their Combat much.

it also helps equalize the SpinDashes, which is what we want anyways, to not have just a small few Melee's be 'the one'.

 

that's exactly why i would advocate it the way i did. to remove speed mods as a factor and instead force players to choose between damage or mobility. as well as break the "light" weapons dominance on movement.

[Keiiken]

If the reason its kept is for the ninja mobility feel make How about we make all weapons able to copter and automatically start wall running if you hit environment at an angle that is not dead on.

Then tweak it slightly for the weapon type.

E.g. 

Heavy melee just plows through enemies because of momentum

Light melee bounces off at an angle from first enemy hit maybe the smaller the weapon the more enemies you ricochet off. You could also give us the ability to alter trajectory slightly once airborne with light melee.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Keiiken

[xethier]

If the reason its kept is for the ninja mobility feel make How about we make all weapons able to copter and automatically start wall running if you hit environment at an angle that is not dead on.

Then tweak it slightly for the weapon type.

E.g. 

Heavy melee just plows through enemies because of momentum

Light melee bounces off at an angle from first enemy hit maybe the smaller the weapon the more enemies you ricochet off. You could also give us the ability to alter trajectory slightly once airborne with light melee.

 

now that would be fun. especially if combined with my idea. :P

[taiiat]

How about we make all weapons able to copter and automatically start wall running if you hit environment at an angle that is not dead on.

 

 

Heavy melee just plows through enemies because of momentum

Light melee bounces off at an angle from first enemy hit maybe the smaller the weapon the more enemies you ricochet off. You could also give us the ability to alter trajectory slightly once airborne with light melee.

- if you mean, start Wallrunning as long as we're holding Jump to tell the game we want to, then sure.

 

- the distinctions between Heavy and Light Melee there are neato. i'd like to see that.

[Keiiken]

now that would be fun. especially if combined with my idea. :P

 

Thats great synergy. Mods for those people and times you want to go bowling and take out the enemy or for playing pinball bouncing off walls around them. 

 

- if you mean, start Wallrunning as long as we're holding Jump to tell the game we want to, then sure.

 

Of course,, the whole point is about choice if actually missed the heavy gunner by accident you can abort the wall run but if you meant to bypass them when coptering keep going till you run out of stamina or wall. Also no more clunky gotta walk/run up to wall to start wall running just charge forward, leap into the air and the walls become new highways instead of obstacles you can only negotiate when you are on the ground.

[Vanadium]

You expect me to read all of this?

For what I saw while skimming seems good.

 Welp, that's why the TL;DR's at the top. Still, I hope you got to the super rad Jonny Quest pic. Few things top Race Bannon + bazooka + jetpack.

 

 

Heavy melee should copter

I don't think coptering should be linked to warframes, because light warframes don't need the speed and heavy ones do.

That's not to say I don't copter around like a crazy person with my loki, but I'm also refereed to as the Copter Queen, often doing double and triple copters around the map.

also maybe fix the derpy little run that we do.

 

Melee shouldn't copter, period. <-period

 

It's weird, it doesn't make sense, and there are cooler, more fun ways to implement the same result that fits the universe. That's the whole OP in a nutshell.

 

Slower warframes were always meant to be slow. They have pros to counteract the cons of being slow, like beefiness, CC, or nukes. You can't have it all. That's what we call OP. You can have a middle ground, but that's definitely not Rhino or Frost. They're very tanky frames with very defense-centric powers, as well as radial-CC. They're both pretty good as is. Let speedsters have their speed, let tanks have their tanks. 

 

In addition, frames were intended for roles. Ex. Frost is not a rusher. He's the defense king. Even after the snowglobe nerf, T4D groups are still Frost + a bunch of CC. That's just how it is, that's just how he was designed.

 

Of course people want to rush through the tiles they've gone through a 1000 times before, without a single CC-wall getting in their way. That's understandable and most frames have counters to that. That's a symptom of some of the game's core issues which I don't want to get into here.

 

I like this, it would make a coptering loki faster than a vanguard rhino (as I understood it you don't want to change their basespeeds, but their coptering speeds right?) and it would make zephyr the blazing fast avian she's supposed to be.

 

Pretty much, I really want to take coptering out entirely and just have it be sort of a boost function Warframes can do.

 

if its tied to frames, i think its fine as long as the slow frames are at ~80% speed, and fastest are ~120%, so there isn’t too much variance

 

 Totally reasonable.

 

I believe that tying it to the warframes themselves makes perfect sense. There's a reason why the sprint speeds are what they are. Zorencoptering renders the differences meaningless. (which is why many people love or hate it)

 

Removing melee weapons from the equation makes the most sense, allowing parkour moves that can increase the movement abilities above and beyond a simple jump/flip.

 

and.... that pretty much makes zorencoptering not a "thing" anymore once you get to this point.

 

I'd just say, as a meet-half-way solution that all melee weapons allow for a coptering "move" and leave it at that.

this would limit the immersion breaking aspects of the way zorencoptering works now and make for some interesting ideas for future melee weapons. you could also break the tie to weapon speed and give it it's own mechanic. (and mods)

 

So...like...Jetswords?

 

 

or like this?

 

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/556513875590791363/8B446C256E60657AC3659553F76CE793082E2F8D/470x264.resizedimage

 

I mean, yeah. I would like to see Zorencoptering not a thing by replacing it with a more immersive, polished mechanic. Unless I'm completely missing the point, I thought people liked Zorencoptering because it let them quickly rush through repetitive content. So will this. Unfortunately zorencoptering also bypasses a bunch of balancing cons on certain frames. What I'm suggesting is already a middle-ground.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[xethier]

-snip-

 

I mean, yeah. I would like to see Zorencoptering not a thing by replacing it with a more immersive, polished mechanic. Unless I'm completely missing the point, I thought people liked Zorencoptering because it let them quickly rush through repetitive content. So will this. Unfortunately zorencoptering also bypasses a bunch of balancing cons on certain frames. What I'm suggesting is already a middle-ground.

 

what you're suggesting is, essentially, a removal of zorencoptering. which has already been addressed by DE, and the response was "isn't going to happen".

that's why i offered a balancing mechanism to the current design. in the form of giving each melee weapon it's own flight "move", removing speed mods as the deciding factor in scale and advocating new mods to control that ability.

 

regardless of what happens, i really would like to see this element polished. 

[Mountain_Dew_Camacho]

pretty sure all this is baked into the game and won't change

[taiiat]

pretty sure all this is baked into the game

nothing is baked into the game.

 

and at the same time, everything (probably) is. since the Evolution Engine is built by people that have lots of experience with Unreal, i would guess that there's some similarities between them, like baked assets.

 

but nothing is baked into the game in terms of 'we refuse to accept feedback and act upon it'.

[Vanadium]

 

what you're suggesting is, essentially, a removal of zorencoptering. which has already been addressed by DE, and the response was "isn't going to happen".

that's why i offered a balancing mechanism to the current design. in the form of giving each melee weapon it's own flight "move", removing speed mods as the deciding factor in scale and advocating new mods to control that ability.

 

regardless of what happens, i really would like to see this element polished. 

Yeah, that's what I said. I even said that's what I said. But all I want to see removed is the way it is currently implemented and replaced with something more sensible, more polished, and that can be balanced and tailored. People want to rush invasions/event/vault runs/etc. I get it. I rush through some of it, too. I've been staring at some of these tilesets for over a year. But DE has admitted that it's kind of an accepted glitch, and there should be a point where an accepted glitch becomes a fully implemented, polished mechanic, just like skiing in Tribes.

 

I also asked you, "Like this?"

 

And you didn't really answer. You're not really explaining your idea in a way that's easily visualized. I'm not sure what a "flight move" is.

 

Also, I don't want to see melee weapons turned into decorations on your back again, existing solely to "go fast". They just became viable for killing stuff and I'm really enjoying it, even if it's not perfect.

 

pretty sure all this is baked into the game and won't change

 

They already removed it once. It's definitely not "baked", whatever that means.

 

I feel like my point is being missed: I want a version of zorencoptering that is refined, cooler, worked on, and makes sense. That's it. That involves separating it from slide attacks probably, yeah, and it would probably be fine.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[Feallike]

OK how to make coptering work with parkour:
 

1. Have it work with frame speed, and stamina. How fast you go is not because your weapon swings fast, its because your fast.

 

2. Rush does not effect coptering. It only effects ground speed and wall running speed. You could even change Rush's description to faster RUN speed to make it clear.

 

3. Coptering works with momentum not how fast your melee weapon is. Lets put it this way:

 

Faster weapons makes you go faster when coptering, but it will not increase your speed as much if your already moving very fast.

 

So once you reach X speed with a fast melee weapon you will not increase in speed as drasticly if you copter again while being at the same speed.

 

Heavy weapons work with momentum, the faster you go, the faster heavy weapons will boost you. If you wall run then spin with a heavy weapon, you will go faster then if you wall run then spin with a light weapon.

 

Also Increase coptering stamina cost.

 

 

Edit: OMG 1800 post!! HYPE

Edited September 29, 2014 by Feallike

[ReizoRyuu]

Pretty much, I really want to take coptering out entirely and just have it be sort of a boost function Warframes can do.

 

Yeah I got that part as well, but since there isn't a name for your proposed mechanic I still called it coptering, should've put it between quotes.

[Lukap99]

Well, personally, I'm always going to oppose coptering in favor of a parkour overhaul (including the very basic movement physics).

But it's good too see that people think that coptering is something that the frames themselves should be able to do, and not the weapon, even if we aren't getting a parkour overhaul.

[Zero.No.Hikari]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/316183-movement-idea/#entry3574920

 

Here's my reasoning on how it could be done but yours sounds good too.

[Keiiken]

Heavy weapons work with momentum, the faster you go, the faster heavy weapons will boost you. If you wall run then spin with a heavy weapon, you will go faster then if you wall run then spin with a light weapon.

 

 

Thats not how momentum works.

Same energy applied to two objects that are equal in every way except mass will cause the lighter object to accelerate to a higher speed they will both have the same momentum.

If you assume they will both be moving at the same speed then the heavier object has the higher momentum from having greater mass but it takes more energy to accelerate it.

 

Basically the choice is either you:

Equalize the energy imparted launching into coptering which means faster speeds for light melee they both have the same ability to to a spin attack through a group of enemies. 

Equalize the coptering speeds, heavy melee has more momentum because it take more energy to accelerate so you can't copter as often but you hit enemies in your path like the proverbial truck.