There Is No Good, Or Evil In Warframe

[Brimir]

I just killed thousands of people based on the directions of a voice in my head. We are the good guys, right?

 

I don't think standard human morality applies to the insane so we're in the clear.

 

After all, people who plead insanity don't go to jail.

[Theodorick]

I just killed thousands of people based on the directions of a voice in my head. We are the good guys, right?

Depends who you ask.

 

Your commander in chief would say you are following order and thus a hero for going beyond your duty.

 

The ennemy will labelled you as a war criminal.

 

And the ignorant will say whatever he's being told to believe.

 

 

While the backstory of Warframe is not developped yet, I have a feeling they are not going for the typical good/evil struggle portrayed in fairy tales and blockbuster titles.

[Brimir]

But an actual commander of flesh and bone is quite different than one who exists solely as a voice in your head, isn't he?

[Theodorick]

But an actual commander of flesh and bone is quite different than one who exists solely as a voice in your head, isn't he?

It's a figure of speech.

 

I do not understand this need to define "good" and "evil" so much in Warframe.

 

First of all, it is a game. For gameplay purposes I do not think anyone would be interested in playing the red cross tenno on grineer colonized planets and carry rubedo to the enslaved populations as a way to show we're the "good guys" in game.

 

And from a lore standpoint, I believe there is no cut and clear definition of what is good and evil in Warframe. We're not supposed to enforce "good", but Balance as far as I know, and Balance is neither good or evil. It depends on who you ask at the time. In a real conflict you will always have a winning and losing party.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Theodorick

[Brimir]

Okay, but then it is a figure of speech that doesn't apply or make any sense in this situation...

 

For all we know, Lotus might not even be real.

 

Your figure of speech relies on an actual authority figure, not a one that might as well be a result of a psychosis.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Brimir

[Theodorick]

Okay, but then it is a figure of speech that doesn't apply or make any sense in this situation...

 

For all we know, Lotus might not even be real.

 

Your figure of speech relies on an actual authority figure, not a one that might as well be a result of a psychosis.

 

What is real?

 

You contradict yourself here. It does apply because Lotus is very much the authority figure here. She is the one giving us purpose. She orders/guide us around and we follow her order/guidance.

 

Maybe Lotus is not a "real" flesh and blood living creature? Is she even self-aware or a pretender controlled remotely by something else? But what defines real to you then? We are not all a bunch of schizophrenic sharing the same delusion here. What she is, or represent is very much real.

 

While we may have many questions, because the lore is not finished yet and could be changed at any time, one thing for sure is that the Lotus is our authority figure in the game.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Theodorick

[Brimir]

You're being all philosophical on an issue that isn't philosophical, but factual. You're referring to an authority figure as if they are real; my objection to that is that if Lotus is a figment of our crazed minds then she really isn't an authority figure in that sense and your "figure of speech" would not apply.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Brimir

[Theodorick]

You're being all philosophical on an issue that isn't philosophical, but factual...

Good and evil is not factual. It's very much philosophical. Simply because something that once was considered good can be changed to evil. Once again it depends on who you ask and when.

 

Beside, you were the first to go down that clear road by challenging me with a very much philosophical question "Is the Lotus real?". Own up to your own argumentation please, do not deflect it.

[Brimir]

/facedesk

 

That is not the point - the nature of the authority figure is. A real authroity figure fits with your "figure of speech"; an imagined one created by an insane mind does not. Because no-one else can see it, no-one can tell you were "just following orders". You're a deranged madman in the eyes of everyone but yourself.

 

Oh, and the Lotus being real or not is also not a philosophical question; it is very much factual.

 

Either she is or she is not. There's nothing philosophical about it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Brimir

[Theodorick]

/facedesk

 

That is not the point - the nature of the authority figure is. A real authroity figure fits with your "figure of speech"; an imagined one created by an insane mind does not. Because no-one else can see it, no-one can tell you were "just following orders". You're a deranged madman in the eyes of everyone but yourself.

 

Oh, and the Lotus being real or not is also not a philosophical question; it is very much factual.

 

Either she is or she is not. There's nothing philosophical about it.

Really?

 

What are you even talking about now? Did you read it out loud first?

 

"That is not the point - the nature of the authority figure is. A real authroity figure fits with your "figure of speech"; an imagined one created by an insane mind does not." This I agree, but the following is nonsense.

 

"Because no-one else can see it, no-one can tell you were "just following orders". You're a deranged madman in the eyes of everyone but yourself."

 

Is the Lotus seen only by 1? Aren't we all seeing/hearing her, getting the same orders in the exact same way? You answer your own question in your own sentence... "everyone but yourself". Which is clearly not the case here, therefor the first part of your sentence do not apply at all. This is a textbook fallacy. You claim one thing can not be true because a madman imagining said thing renders it false, but we are not all madmen.

 

But hey, I understand, you are the Mister I'm always right.

 

I started this by replying to MantisCore simply about how this game is not clear cut black and white (which at the time, I though fit with the thread, about how the OP thinks is more grayish than good/evil). But you decided to start a philosophical debate with me (that I admit, was fine to obliged), but then you accused me of going philosophical on you and you finish your last post with a "is or is not" sort of question (without the ?) to make it look like a philosophical post yourself. Please make up your mind already.

 

Edit : I'm done anyway, a moderator could probably see fit to delete all this because we diverted from the main subject too much, and I take my part of the blame in this. But I'm not going to fuel it any further.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Theodorick

[Brimir]

"You claim one thing can not be true because a madman imagining said thing renders it false, but we are not all madmen."

 

Except that I'm not making a general claim about the Lotus, but specifically describing the situation if she was a delusion.

 

Reading comprehension, bro.

[OverlordMcGeek]

we are evil period /thread

 

if you don't understand my reasoning the first or second line of my previous response is crystal. we are demented tenno!

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

In Warframe there is no heroes, and villains. No good, or evil.

 

I decided to post a topic to enlighten you of a possibility of what we think we know may not what be what really is. Possibly what we think is may also be what is as well. What if the factions we always believed to be evil were never evil. What if people never truly had a choice? What if no one is free? What if fear truly does dictate the lives of those we kill?

--

What if I could convince you Stalker is not inherently evil. Stalker hunts us mainly because we took down the Orokin Empire. He was a Low Guard in that empire. That was his life, his livelihood. He worked hard for that rank. It was an honor to him. Then we came, and destroyed his life. We took it all away. We humiliated him. We erased him. We took it all away. We took away his name. His life. His home. His identity. His friends. His family. Everything... Gone... The bosses we kill are simply minor excuses to give him current reason to pick which tenno he will go after.

 

Think of it this way. If an army suddenly appeared and wiped out your country. Killed everyone who knew you, and destroyed your very identity. Made all your hard work. Jobs. College. Education... All of it meaningless...  Simply took everything away would you sit idle? Would you simply forgive them, and walk away with the ashes of what is left? Or... Would you become a futuristic space ninja like your enemies, and be the Punisher of Warframe?

--

What if I could convince you Grineer(outside of the Queens) are not evil. We know they are clones. We know they are created. Possibly even programed. They have no true free will. They desire the attention of the Queens. They long to impress them. They long for their praise. To feel good about their work. The only time they quit is in death. The Grineer are created desiring to serve the Queens. They come into a scary world with killer robots, zombie infestations, and of course... Tenno. Yet they come flying at us without fear, and unflinching. They are all brainwashed. Possibly even dying happily knowing they died serving their Queens. They think their deaths are not in vain. They think it made a difference. Yet still hundreds of ship generators are destroyed. thousands of Grineer killed. Messages intercepted. Important objectives lost. They simply are not truly free. They are all brainwashed.

 

They think the actions they take are right. They fight for reasons they are forced to believe in, and believe this is what they truly want. Sadly they are beyond help. There is nothing we can do for them, but to do the right thing, and kill them truly freeing them.

--

 

What f I could convince you Corpus are not evil?

 

First lets start with the one man that we all feel 100% is EVIL. Alad V. He took Tenno, and made Zanuka. Then took advantage of Infested. Well did you know most people go into a job field with Good Intentions. Accountants, and most people who manage money do their job with good intentions. Then suddenly a need for money comes along. Pressure is on. Tricks are pulled under the table to give themselves money. Good intentions go awry. Alad V. is a Victim of such an event. After losing the location of the Grineer on Phobos to the Tenno he grew desperate. He moved on to bio-mechanics. That is when he picked up Zanuka. He badly wanted to bring about the power of the Tenno he wanted to show his work. The Council was going to close funding. He was going to lose it all. So he took a more twisted path one that the Council does not agree with. One thing led to another, and the rest is history. His Good intention of trying to bring technology to the Corpus went awry with his twisted experiments, and desperation.

 

Now lets speak of the Corpus as a whole. What is the Corpus exactly? Multiple corporations brought together into one super Council of corporations of course. They take profit seriously, and religiously, but why? If I remember correctly one of the messages from the Radio Chatter contest.

 

CORPUS PILOT

"What was that? Did you hear that? No? Oh, I’m getting jumpy. Four ships in the last lunar cycle, all gone.

(pause)

You know, he might have been crazy but Alad V dealt with the betrayers head on… not like that coward Frohd… wait, what do you mean I’m on an open channel. Oh for the… (click)"

 

Frohd does not deal with betrayers head on. Who do we know is the big betrayer? Of course it is Darvo. His son. The one he worked so hard to groom into becoming the head of council. Some players have said Frohd would kill his own son, but in one event he even grounded him in a cell. He wanted to keep him there. He even had a argument with his son, and not once did he say anything along the lines of wanting to kill his own son. Think about it. Corpus have kids. They have families. Someone like Frohd loved his son to go as far as sparing his life, but wanting to bring him home, and give him the best he can. Sure he is crushed, but still loves him. Meaning Corpus are not just doing their job for themselves. Some of them are doing it for their families. Because they have to. They need to bring in money for them. Maybe they have medical bills. A sick child. Something they really want to do that is nice for their birthday. Maybe even help give them better education to be better than their parents.

 

If you ever played Metal Gear Rising there was a special scene in that game that pointed out a good example of this.

 

The Corpus crewmen as a whole don't seem as evil anymore now do they? If they still do shame. Sure they are greedy, but take a look around. Those crewmen are taking extremely dangerous jobs. Dealing directly with YOU. They are being paid alot to be in dangerous places risking the chance to be sent right into your bullet storm. If you are greedy usually you don't take a job where you can't enjoy your greed the next day. No these crewmen are desperate. Everything they do is in an act of desperation. Everything is a risk. Unlike the council, and the higher ups who can hide behind all these crewmen, but even then some of the higher ups seem to be just wearing mask. Like I said with Frohd sure Darvo describes him as blood thirsty, and ruthless, but if this was true why didn't he kill Darvo when he had him in his cell? Think about that alittle.

--

Now I am sure your asking how do I myself get over the idea of killing them if I don't see them as evil.

Two reasons...

 

One Rules of Nature... Survival of the fittest, or a show of endurance of the superior blade to cut a way to the future.

 

Two because the Solar System needs someone who can make a difference. Unlike those who chose the path of Honor I chose the path of Sacrifice. Even if it means thousands of Grineer, or Corpus will die. Those who cannot fight will be protected. Whether its the still innocent children of the Corpus, or the colonist.

 

I am inclined to agree that the Warframe universe is not one of good and evil, or it doesn't have to be. Though, that has a large part to do with the fact I don't believe in good or evil. Having said that, they are still terms of measure for a societies judgement of right and wrong, or moralizing. It is a component of civilization, but is not a component of nature. 

 

The Corpus are not necessarily evil, but they are exclusive profit strength maximizers. Alad V is an example of this to the extreme, so much so that he was cut off from the rest of the Corpus. This will put them at odds with more egalitarian societies. 

 

Similar story for the Grineer. 

 

The sad thing is, the Warframe Universe is near post-scarsity setting. Only very rare resources seem to be non-synthasizable. Though it maybe a technology mostly controlled by the Corpus, seeing as they are one of the only successful factions at reverse engineering Orokin Tech. They other is the Tenno, and the Lotus I guess. Then again, the matter synthesis could be just a concession of game mechanics. Matter replication is a bag of unintended consequences, that leads to surprising existential shattering conflicts. So much of what we do is based on necessities related to scarcity. 

[-Kryptyk-]

In Warframe there is no heroes, and villains. No good, or evil.

I decided to post a topic to enlighten you of a possibility of what we think we know may not what be what really is. Possibly what we think is may also be what is as well. What if the factions we always believed to be evil were never evil. What if people never truly had a choice? What if no one is free? What if fear truly does dictate the lives of those we kill?

--

What if I could convince you Stalker is not inherently evil. Stalker hunts us mainly because we took down the Orokin Empire. He was a Low Guard in that empire. That was his life, his livelihood. He worked hard for that rank. It was an honor to him. Then we came, and destroyed his life. We took it all away. We humiliated him. We erased him. We took it all away. We took away his name. His life. His home. His identity. His friends. His family. Everything... Gone... The bosses we kill are simply minor excuses to give him current reason to pick which tenno he will go after.

Think of it this way. If an army suddenly appeared and wiped out your country. Killed everyone who knew you, and destroyed your very identity. Made all your hard work. Jobs. College. Education... All of it meaningless... Simply took everything away would you sit idle? Would you simply forgive them, and walk away with the ashes of what is left? Or... Would you become a futuristic space ninja like your enemies, and be the Punisher of Warframe?

--

What if I could convince you Grineer(outside of the Queens) are not evil. We know they are clones. We know they are created. Possibly even programed. They have no true free will. They desire the attention of the Queens. They long to impress them. They long for their praise. To feel good about their work. The only time they quit is in death. The Grineer are created desiring to serve the Queens. They come into a scary world with killer robots, zombie infestations, and of course... Tenno. Yet they come flying at us without fear, and unflinching. They are all brainwashed. Possibly even dying happily knowing they died serving their Queens. They think their deaths are not in vain. They think it made a difference. Yet still hundreds of ship generators are destroyed. thousands of Grineer killed. Messages intercepted. Important objectives lost. They simply are not truly free. They are all brainwashed.

They think the actions they take are right. They fight for reasons they are forced to believe in, and believe this is what they truly want. Sadly they are beyond help. There is nothing we can do for them, but to do the right thing, and kill them truly freeing them.

--

What f I could convince you Corpus are not evil?

First lets start with the one man that we all feel 100% is EVIL. Alad V. He took Tenno, and made Zanuka. Then took advantage of Infested. Well did you know most people go into a job field with Good Intentions. Accountants, and most people who manage money do their job with good intentions. Then suddenly a need for money comes along. Pressure is on. Tricks are pulled under the table to give themselves money. Good intentions go awry. Alad V. is a Victim of such an event. After losing the location of the Grineer on Phobos to the Tenno he grew desperate. He moved on to bio-mechanics. That is when he picked up Zanuka. He badly wanted to bring about the power of the Tenno he wanted to show his work. The Council was going to close funding. He was going to lose it all. So he took a more twisted path one that the Council does not agree with. One thing led to another, and the rest is history. His Good intention of trying to bring technology to the Corpus went awry with his twisted experiments, and desperation.

Now lets speak of the Corpus as a whole. What is the Corpus exactly? Multiple corporations brought together into one super Council of corporations of course. They take profit seriously, and religiously, but why? If I remember correctly one of the messages from the Radio Chatter contest.

CORPUS PILOT

"What was that? Did you hear that? No? Oh, I’m getting jumpy. Four ships in the last lunar cycle, all gone.

(pause)

You know, he might have been crazy but Alad V dealt with the betrayers head on… not like that coward Frohd… wait, what do you mean I’m on an open channel. Oh for the… (click)"

Frohd does not deal with betrayers head on. Who do we know is the big betrayer? Of course it is Darvo. His son. The one he worked so hard to groom into becoming the head of council. Some players have said Frohd would kill his own son, but in one event he even grounded him in a cell. He wanted to keep him there. He even had a argument with his son, and not once did he say anything along the lines of wanting to kill his own son. Think about it. Corpus have kids. They have families. Someone like Frohd loved his son to go as far as sparing his life, but wanting to bring him home, and give him the best he can. Sure he is crushed, but still loves him. Meaning Corpus are not just doing their job for themselves. Some of them are doing it for their families. Because they have to. They need to bring in money for them. Maybe they have medical bills. A sick child. Something they really want to do that is nice for their birthday. Maybe even help give them better education to be better than their parents.

If you ever played Metal Gear Rising there was a special scene in that game that pointed out a good example of this.

The Corpus crewmen as a whole don't seem as evil anymore now do they? If they still do shame. Sure they are greedy, but take a look around. Those crewmen are taking extremely dangerous jobs. Dealing directly with YOU. They are being paid alot to be in dangerous places risking the chance to be sent right into your bullet storm. If you are greedy usually you don't take a job where you can't enjoy your greed the next day. No these crewmen are desperate. Everything they do is in an act of desperation. Everything is a risk. Unlike the council, and the higher ups who can hide behind all these crewmen, but even then some of the higher ups seem to be just wearing mask. Like I said with Frohd sure Darvo describes him as blood thirsty, and ruthless, but if this was true why didn't he kill Darvo when he had him in his cell? Think about that alittle.

--

Now I am sure your asking how do I myself get over the idea of killing them if I don't see them as evil.

Two reasons...

One Rules of Nature... Survival of the fittest, or a show of endurance of the superior blade to cut a way to the future.

Two because the Solar System needs someone who can make a difference. Unlike those who chose the path of Honor I chose the path of Sacrifice. Even if it means thousands of Grineer, or Corpus will die. Those who cannot fight will be protected. Whether its the still innocent children of the Corpus, or the colonist.

I always thought the corpus were good.... when invasions come, no matter the reward, I feel as if I should side with them. They are a more civilized folk, making their living just like most humans do. They want money? Don't we all. And they have a good business too... trading, buying and selling... seems legit. This whole post is my thoughts to words as well, however I do not trust the tenno. I do not trust Lotus. She seems to be the kind that is *too good to be true* and suggests propaganda that seems illegitimate. Am I the only one who thinks that?

[-Kryptyk-]

I just killed thousands of people based on the directions of a voice in my head. We are the good guys, right?

Just broke the game. DONE. FRIKIN DONE.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I always thought the corpus were good.... when invasions come, no matter the reward, I feel as if I should side with them. They are a more civilized folk, making their living just like most humans do. They want money? Don't we all. And they have a good business too... trading, buying and selling... seems legit. This whole post is my thoughts to words as well, however I do not trust the tenno. I do not trust Lotus. She seems to be the kind that is *too good to be true* and suggests propaganda that seems illegitimate. Am I the only one who thinks that?

 

The Lotus may not be telling us everything, but she isn't capturing Tenno and chopping them up for auction.

[havikryan]

who cares, tenno are mercenaries, evil/good doesn't matter, they pay and the tenno come.

[Rakosta_Kai]

who cares, tenno are mercenaries, evil/good doesn't matter, they pay and the tenno come.

Oh, I'd say there are many players who would care if Tenno were actually the villains.

Some would get excited and some would be repulsed.

 

The beginner's tutorial shows you being awakened, attacked, and almost enslaved. No doubt one of the goals of the narrative is to enforce the notion that the player's character is the potential victim and is merely defending themselves.

 

The Information Age has managed to de-sensitize people to alot of things, but it hasn't entirely dulled the concepts of good, evil, right, and wrong yet.

[Dillon_J]

Alad V seemed pretty evil in the trailer:

 

no hes just... well.. playing a game.. yea thats it

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

It all depends on perspective. Some perspectives are different than others, and none are right nor wrong.

Ah yes, the ol' "Do what thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law" argument

Edited February 14, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[S0ulre4per]

we are not evil, we just do what is necessary.

 

*kills milions of soldiers just because the need of become a pro with bow and arrow*

 

well that IS TOTALY NECESSARY       *shoots another one in the head*

[Overlord_Hades]

This is great, lets take a subjective idea and tell people its subjective so we can have people argue their subjective views as right or wrong. Unless you don't have your own views on morality and are subject to someones opinion other then your own (i.e friends, book / holy scriptures, ect...) thus making it objective for yourself ignoring the plethora of views one could have. Great topic. Never seen this one on the forums before dozens of times. Enlightenment 10/10.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

I stopped reading when I got to the part about Alad V being a victim of circumstance and your analogy of an accountant.  Apparently you miss a little thing known as Integrity.  Alad V is a worm and always was.  Compromising your values because times are hard is a perfect example of a coward.  The grineer and corpus as a whole are not evil no they are programmed to be what they are.  They are lead by evil.  Evil like the Queens, Vor, Alad V, ect.  However the fact that they do not choose their destiny does not mean that they are any less of a threat.  

[Slaviar]

As for "Betrayers" I think that's how Corpus sometimes calls Tenno.

Only people in Solar System I'm sure are good guys are members of Steel Meridian.

[Dull]

Grineer - Led by evil intentions: oppression, xenophobia, hatred

Corpus - Led by neutrality: $$$$$

Infested - Neutral evil : No morality, Assimilation of anything

Tenno - Led by good intentions