Some Prime Weapons Are Really Bad.

[ShinigamiZack]

"with the right build" 

 

Explain to me this build and how I can't make a significantly better build for a different, almost objectively superior prime weapon. 

 

 

With the right build and enough forma I can kick @$$ with a Mk1-braton. I'm just going to need a lot of forma. Don't give me the "if you put the time and forma needed into the weapons..." I'm sure with six forma you could make the braton prime comparable to the boltor prime, Though the Boltor prime would only need one forma to become better than the braton prime could ever be. 

so you just want an OP weapon with just one potato ? go marelok then ....

 

dude all weapon have their behavior and their own way to deal with , if you like a weapon , stick with it, just stick with it , nothing is more important than fun in a game 

[Innocent_Flower]

so you just want an OP weapon with just one potato ? go marelok then ....

 

dude all weapon have their behavior and their own way to deal with , if you like a weapon , stick with it, just stick with it , nothing is more important than fun in a game 

How's the marelok comment relevant? 

 

I want a variety of good weapons. But because the closest thing we have to an endgame is reliant on OP weapons I don't really feel like I'm using a variety. 

[Archistopheles]

dude all weapon have their behavior and their own way to deal with , if you like a weapon , stick with it, just stick with it , nothing is more important than fun in a game

It's probably hard for a lot of players to imagine, but for me, as a player back during Update 7, the Braton was arguably just as good as any other gun. 7 updates of power creep progression later, and here we are... Marelok, Brakk, Boltor Prime.

Bears, Beets, Battlestar Galactica.

[OHyeahWF]

This Boltor prime over power case is might be same like Frost with no health point globe.

I find with current weapon stat. Maybe Boltor prime and Braton prime, not my first choice.

Edited October 23, 2014 by OHyeahWF

[Liminal]

It's probably hard for a lot of players to imagine, but for me, as a player back during Update 7, the Braton was arguably just as good as any other gun. 7 updates of power creep progression later, and here we are... Marelok, Brakk, Boltor Prime.

Oh man I had forgotten about that. The Braton truly was a jack of all trades. Dual Boltos were a bit too powerful back then though :P

[Renegade343]

Oh man I had forgotten about that. The Braton truly was a jack of all trades. Dual Boltos were a bit too powerful back then though :P

Boltor says hello (I mean, fingers do get tired with the semi-auto mechanic [of course, there are macros for that, but still]). 

[Innocent_Flower]

Sollution is simples. 

 

 

Nerf boltor. 

 

Buff braton

Buff scythe

Buff bronco

Buff sicarus. 

Find way to make fist weapons work- because they don't. 

[Liminal]

Find way to make fist weapons work- because they don't. 

 

[-Vane-]

 

 

Realistically, if the same upgrades were for the Braton Prime, then it will have:

 

Damage: 44

Firerate: 10

Accuracy: 57.2

Crit Damage: 200

Reload: 1.8

Making it another "top tier" weapon. Gosh i don't get it, Boltor Prime is at the time pretty broken and Braton Prime is just fine, not telling how much better it looks than Boltor Prime.

[Innocent_Flower]

Is this from fallout? 

 

I do remember with particular fondness the fist weapons you could get in new vegas. The one with the shotgun that fires when you land a punch is magnificent. 

[Liminal]

Is this from fallout? 

 

I do remember with particular fondness the fist weapons you could get in new vegas. The one with the shotgun that fires when you land a punch is magnificent. 

Yes, the Punch Gun :P

[LeadToRise]

Are you implying that the Orokin Empire made crappy weapons?

This.

[Malikon]

What I would like to see is a precedent set for all Prime weapons.  A guide for what a Prime should be, as compared to its non-prime counterpart, and then have ALL prime weapons adjusted to match that precedent.  The fact that people are constantly squabbling over this or that Prime weapon/frame because it is vastly superior to its original while another is only marginally better is ridiculous.  This should not be a thing, and if there was a standard for Prime stats, it wouldnt be.

 

I'd rather be hyped about Archwing or the new ability system or any other number of things, rather than being focused on whether or not Scott and the rest of the devs will (should?) decide to buff my Braton Prime.

[SleepingSentry]

Some prime weapons are really bad?  More like some prime weapons are really good.  I'd say nerf boltor in particular but seeing as how it's not necessary - there's only a few weapons besides the starters you'd be hard pressed to take over an hour in T4S (aka more than viable for the entire game).  I say live and let live, add more weapons don't waste time balancing them unless you plan on adding a ton more HP to enemies than they currently have.  Many people will flock to whatever is the easiest / most powerful gun to use, so it doesn't really make a difference which one is on top.

Edited October 23, 2014 by SleepingSentry

[Malikon]

I'm not a brilliant man, but I think I have a reasonable resolution to threads like this.

 

I believe a precedent should be made in regards to what a Prime item should be compared to its non-prime counterpart.  All prime items should be adjusted to match this precedent, at which point any arguements on the matter become moot and the focus can go back to being hyped about whats new and exciting.

[CaptainJohnson]

-snip-

 

I'm not sure there really can be a standard through which they improve Prime weapon stats, though. Maybe there should be a balance between them, that much I agree with. However, the fact remains that the original weapons have varying power levels, and simply going through and uniformly buffing their stats will not help them become balanced. In fact, that would probably only make the issue worse. You have to compare the Prime weapons to other Prime weapons, not their original counterparts, because Prime weapons are much more comparable in their crafting costs, difficulty to obtain, etc.

[DeejayPwny]

Old prime weapons are weaker than most new prime weapons. 

 

Boltor prime Is as strong as the boar at short range, but isn't capped at short range. The Paris prime does more damage per shot than the boltor prime but the boltor P does enough damage to instakill t4 opponents anyway and it's firerate is significantly higher. Thus the boltor is both easier to use and significantly more deadly than the Paris. The boltor prime truly outclasses every other prime primary. I've actualy noticed That as I see more Boltor players I see less that the soma is becoming less common and perhaps phased out by this far superior boltor. 

 

Tiberon, a tenno weapon, is about equal to burston prime. Meaning that should a Tiberon prime come into play it'd be head and shoulders above the burston. 

 

The braton prime is a mid tier assault rifle that's worse than common rifles such as the karak or Soma. 

 

The Reaper prime is like the braton in that it's a mid teir weapon with a horribly high crafting requirement. It's easily the worst slash based prime. Realy the Reaper prime should be comparable to the Scindo prime. It isn't. 

 

The sicarus is a bad weapon compared to the other prime secondaries. It feels a lot better than the original and has a delightful reload animation... but it just isn't anywhere near as good as the lex or hikou. The bronco on the other hand doesn't feel much better than the original and thus the amount of people who craft bronco prime is going to be low. 

 

Fist weapons are bad. Nobody cares about the ankyros. Bo for lyf. 

 

Zoren and tigris for next prime weapons?

Primes are meant as upgrades on their normal counterparts, and the balance well around each other (with a few exceptions, and that includes mastery locks)

Ankyros Prime bad? What are you even on about? Those things are stupidly powerful if you know how to use them (tip, knock people down and do ground finishers, it does massive damage).

Scythes in general need a touch up, it has nothing to do with the reaper being bad in itself.

Braton is a great weapon, and balanced as a mid tier rifle oriented for slash (and comparing it to a soma? Really? That's considered a high end rifle for a reason).

Sure, Tiberon has damage, but The Burston Prime has the status advantage, which allows it to carry into higher tiers much easier.

[Malikon]

I get where you're coming from but my thinking on it is this.  

 

If one prime weapon has 100% more effective DPS and 1 more useful polarity than its nonprime counterpart, then they all should.

If one prime warframe has 2 extra polarities and an awesome bonus stat for that frame's playstyle, then they all should.

 

Balanced this way, it provides a set standard such that any prime is comparable to the others in direct proportion to how the origionals match up. 

 

Bad example time, Boltor vs Braton. The standard versions arent equivalent weapons (different genres/purposes) but there isnt such a massive discrepancy that people consistently use one over the other. With a precedent I suggested, the Primes of both still fit their same roles, but are still directly comparable to the other Primes because both were built using a matching set of rules. 

 

This also would highlight any huge biases towards specific weaponry due to it being vastly superior to the others.   Then we have threads based on a series of weapons instead of singular weapons, which allows balancing passes to larger portions of the weapon base in one go.

 

Maybe I'm oversimplifying how this would work out, but it makes sense in my head.

[Paradoxbomb]

Here's a chart of the Prime weapon's damage vs. that the standard counterparts (from a while back but still accurate I believe):

 

Weapon  Normal dmg   Prime dmg    Dmg Increase

 

Boar                96               117                 +22% 

Boltor              25                55                +120%

Braton             20                25                  +25%

Burston           30                39                  +30%

Latron             55                85                  +55%

Paris               75              100                   +30%

Akbronco      105              105                     +0%

Bronco          105              140                   +34%

Lato                12                21                   +75%

Lex                  70               85                   +21%

Sicarus           30                32                     +6%

Ankyros          30                38                   +27%

Fang              30                36                    +20%

Glaive          105              105                      +0%

Orthos           50                65                    +30%

Skana            32                34                      +6%

 

I was surprised to see that at least 50% of the Prime weapons only have a 20-30% boost in damage (which seems ideal to me given that they also get variations in crit/status chance, physical damage, utilities, etc. to further improve them over the original). Than there's the other 50% where they either get a ridiculous amount of bonus damage *cough*Boltor*cough* or a miniscule boost (or even none at all).

 

It's as if DE can't decide whether or not they want Prime weapons to be sidegrades or completely blow their original counterparts out of the water. IMO, all Prime weapons should at least come close to that general 20-30% range so that they still constitute an improvement over the original without a single one or two of them completely trumping the other Primes (or every other weapon for that matter).

[DeejayPwny]

I get where you're coming from but my thinking on it is this.

If one prime weapon has 100% more effective DPS and 1 more useful polarity than its nonprime counterpart, then they all should.

If one prime warframe has 2 extra polarities and an awesome bonus stat for that frame's playstyle, then they all should.

Balanced this way, it provides a set standard such that any prime is comparable to the others in direct proportion to how the origionals match up.

Bad example time, Boltor vs Braton. The standard versions arent equivalent weapons (different genres/purposes) but there isnt such a massive discrepancy that people consistently use one over the other. With a precedent I suggested, the Primes of both still fit their same roles, but are still directly comparable to the other Primes because both were built using a matching set of rules.

This also would highlight any huge biases towards specific weaponry due to it being vastly superior to the others. Then we have threads based on a series of weapons instead of singular weapons, which allows balancing passes to larger portions of the weapon base in one go.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying how this would work out, but it makes sense in my head.

I get what you're saying, but the thing is, most primes are still viable up to base level t4 missions (some exception including bronco, akbronco, and reaper), which is as far as the game is balanced for. If you want to go for 40+minutes in a t4 survival, that's fine, do your thing, but you can't expect that anything is viable in that environment because nothing is balanced around it.

That isn't to say that I don't want a buff to some older primes (ooh boy wouldn't a Braton prime buff be nice), but they don't need them.

And to the guy above me (on mobile, quote editing is hard), the real issue with some of the damage changes is mastery. The Boltor prime could be justified having the stats it does if it was, say, locked behind a mastery rank 9 or 10 wall, but as a master rank 2 weapon, it's just to easy to get.

Edited October 23, 2014 by DeejayPwny

[Malikon]

ParadoxBomb, do you have an effective DPS version of that chart?  I feel it would be more pertinent to this discussion than the base damage version.

 

I'm suggesting the boost between a Prime and its non-prime counterpart should be in effective DPS not necessarily the amount of base damage the weapons provide.  That way each Prime can be unique, and could even allow for multiple Primes of a type with different effects.

[Malikon]

I get what you're saying, but the thing is, most primes are still viable up to base level t4 missions (some exception including bronco, akbronco, and reaper), which is as far as the game is balanced for. If you want to go for 40+minutes in a t4 survival, that's fine, do your thing, but you can't expect that anything is viable in that environment because nothing is balanced around it.

That isn't to say that I don't want a buff to some older primes (ooh boy wouldn't a Braton prime buff be nice), but they don't need them.

I dont even do the endless scaling missions unless I'm really bored and drunk.  I'm mostly just consistently frustrated that there's such an epidemic of items that are grossly better or worse than their peers.  The precedent doesn't have to be set based on the most powerful item, it can be set from the weaker ones as well to combat the "powercreep".

[ysmer]

is always about boltor prime that weapon is making all weapons umbalanced

read this

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/243261-i-think-its-time-boltor-prime-stops-rendering-130-weapons-obsolete/

[Malikon]

ysmer, Its not about Boltor Prime though.  It's about Prime items in general being terribly inconsistent amongst themselves.  Boltor Prime just happens to be one of the farthest outliers, thus becomes the shining example of said inconsistency.

 

edit:  Spelling. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Malikon

[Innocent_Flower]

I'm not a brilliant man, but I think I have a reasonable resolution to threads like this.

 

I believe a precedent should be made in regards to what a Prime item should be compared to its non-prime counterpart.  All prime items should be adjusted to match this precedent, at which point any arguements on the matter become moot and the focus can go back to being hyped about whats new and exciting.

You shouldn't better all prime parts by a certain number. 

 

For instance; Tenno craftsmanship is superior to mass produced corpus crap. If there was a tenno version of the braton; It'd be better. It'd be unfair to have paris prime 50% stronger than a tenno weapon whilst braton prime is 50% stronger than a corpus weapon. 

 

Orokin weapons should be balanced to be equal to eachother. (imo, the Paris prime is the best example of a prime weapon. Latron's pretty spot on too)