Limbo Overall

[Vashramire]

Putting Cataclysm around the pod does not protect it from outside fire, and while it does protect allies inside from outside fire, allies cannot shoot those enemies coming towards them. 

 

Actually it does protect the pod from fire. Tested multiple times.

[GreyEnneract]

Actually it does protect the pod from fire. Tested multiple times.

The only way you can protect the pod is by putting enemies into the Rift.

The pod itself cannot go into the Rift.

[VampirePirate]

allies can dmg everything in it. learn something about the things u wanna talk about first. please.

I know what I'm talking about.   If you look at my other posts, you will see that.  You just did not understand my post.   So please, don't bother me with your indirect insults.  Not needed.  I didn't say anything wrong.   I'm speaking from the ideas I posted earlier, and responding to what Terryhm said earlier.  Stop showing prejudice.  At least I'm being constructive.

Edited October 26, 2014 by VampirePirate

[Vashramire]

The only way you can protect the pod is by putting enemies into the Rift.

The pod itself cannot go into the Rift.

Ok allow me to elaborate. If you cast Cataclysm on the pod it becomes unable to be hit by fire not originating from the Rift. You can even see the weapons fire pass through it. No damage is done and will even be able to regen shields and health while still under "fire". So yes as I stated, it does protect from enemy fire. The pod is therefore in the RIft. I have tested this and 100% of the time the pod remains untouched from outside fire. If you have dissimilar results please share.

[GreyEnneract]

Ok allow me to elaborate. If you cast Cataclysm on the pod it becomes unable to be hit by fire not originating from the Rift. You can even see the weapons fire pass through it. No damage is done and will even be able to regen shields and health while still under "fire". So yes as I stated, it does protect from enemy fire. The pod is therefore in the RIft. I have tested this and 100% of the time the pod remains untouched from outside fire. If you have dissimilar results please share.

My results are different, while the pod is covered by Cataclysm it does indeed still take damage from enemies outside.

[Keiga150]

I like Limbo he's fun, but i do agree he needs a few tweaks here and there.

 

Banish: i do agree it's really trolly when used on an ally on purpose, but for everyone who's arguing to remove this skill or that portion of the skill you gotta remember his Haven augment. Restores some health on banished allies. I just wish it would return any banished allies when used on them again.

 

Rift Surge: This one is a little lack luster. If it did something other then a 1.5x dmg on banished targets it would be better. Like being able to attack banished targets and attacking targets while banished. Additionaly could be better if it allowed allies to attack banished targets if you used this skill.

 

Cataclysm: It indeed protects objectives from incoming fire from the outside but any enemies on the inside will render that pointless. Not sure what i could suggest to make this better. 

[Vashramire]

My results are different, while the pod is covered by Cataclysm it does indeed still take damage from enemies outside.

 

My results are again, different.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ImJiNCKOM

[RCOAS]

Banish is a massive troll. It should create a rift portal behind the ally so he can exit the rift whenever he pleases. Also,banishing enemies is pretty bloody useless, Banish should be something like Limbo opens a rift to the void that cuts through the ground in a line, it deals damage and knocks enemies down, they also get transported in to the rift.

Rift Surge doesn't give enough damage. For a skill that costs a ton of energy, it should be 2.5x or 3x.
Cataclysm is indeed useful, but need to be toggleable. Putting a sphere in one place for 30 seconds is.. annoying.


 

[Greenvalv]

I think Limbo is the manifestation of having a set of skills that synergize with each other too much.  Casting Rift Surge without casting any other is useless.  This is the first case in my experience of an ability that is utterly useless when cast by itself.  Is it just me or is the 1.5x damage that Rift Surge does feel like it should already be a natural feature of the rift? 

 

Banished an enemy and he survived the hit?  Well guess what, yer gonna have to cast 2 or 4 in order to kill em or just wait until the effect wears off.

 

The main problem I see with Limbo is that he isn't very team friendly.  Using Banish shuts down a team's ability to damage a target.  No other abilities on other warframes do this as well as Limbo does.  The fact that he has to cast multiple abilities constantly to prevent being a troll to the team just makes him complex to handle (no wonder Ordis said the previous suit owner shredded himself).

 

As others have mentioned, the rift needs to be made more accessible to allies to make banishing targets worth it. 

 

As it currently stands, being able to banish allies gives too much control over teammates.  It's as troll-tastic as Switch Teleport... which I hope also finally gets the ability to cast on allies removed as well.

[GreyEnneract]

I think Limbo is the manifestation of having a set of skills that synergize with each other too much.  Casting Rift Surge without casting any other is useless.  This is the first case in my experience of an ability that is utterly useless when cast by itself.  Is it just me or is the 1.5x damage that Rift Surge does feel like it should already be a natural feature of the rift? 

 

Banished an enemy and he survived the hit?  Well guess what, yer gonna have to cast 2 or 4 in order to kill em or just wait until the effect wears off.

 

The main problem I see with Limbo is that he isn't very team friendly.  Using Banish shuts down a team's ability to damage a target.  No other abilities on other warframes do this as well as Limbo does.  The fact that he has to cast multiple abilities constantly to prevent being a troll to the team just makes him complex to handle (no wonder Ordis said the previous suit owner shredded himself).

 

As others have mentioned, the rift needs to be made more accessible to allies to make banishing targets worth it. 

 

As it currently stands, being able to banish allies gives too much control over teammates.  It's as troll-tastic as Switch Teleport... which I hope also finally gets the ability to cast on allies removed as well.

I agree.

[ArtKishi]

I honestly like all the proposed changes to Limbo, but i would like to see his skills be more AOE and more attacking skills then shifting in and out of the rift. I mean, a Sorcerer has to dish out and burst down an enemy with as many attacks as possible and in a wide range right?

[GreyEnneract]

I honestly like all the proposed changes to Limbo, but i would like to see his skills be more AOE and more attacking skills then shifting in and out of the rift. I mean, a Sorcerer has to dish out and burst down an enemy with as many attacks as possible and in a wide range right?

He isn't a sorcerer at all in that aspect, his ability damage is terrible.

[ProfessorZero]

This thread will be about Limbo feedback overall, but mostly about his abilities.

 

As far as Limbo's theme goes, he is portrayed as being a Void Sorcerer, a being in between the Void and Reality that can utilize powers that allow him to send allies and enemies in between each respective realm. His secondary theme would be that of a sort of stage magician, explaining the top hat. The Void part fits him, however the Sorcerer part does not seem to. Having only one recastable damage ability, that can only be casted on the same enemy once does not really convince me and a few others that he is a Sorcerer. While his other abilities focus on being in the Rift.

 

For the powers, there does seem to be a great deal of synergy, however at the same time there isn't much to make said synergy worthwhile. The payout to combo with Limbo is not worth the time it takes to make it happen.

 

1. Banish allows Limbo to send an enemy or ally into the Rift, while dealing a miniscule amount of damage on enemies and knocking them down. Once casted on an enemy, Banish cannot be casted on them again, the same goes for allies. To start off, this ability is decent, it lets you single out who you want inside of the Rift and has a single target CC. Complaints that I've heard about this skill are that it lacks AOE, and that some Limbo users are able to make their allies useless to the majority of the enemies on the field. One solution I could see for this is being able to cast Banish on an enemy/ally once again to bring them back into the normal plane. However, this still gives Limbo a bit too much control over his allies. Other solutions are welcomed.

Ok one: its not CC aka Crowd Control if its a single target ability. Valkyrs ripline isnt CC, frosts 1st ability isnt CC, novas 1st ability isnt, ash's shuriken isnt (yes it can target two but thats not CC). Banish would only be a CC ability if it fired a bubble the "void'd" all the people it came in contact with or everyone within 5m of the target got void'd. 

 

Second: the problem is that these abilities do NOT have synergy. yes they are built to build off of each other, but they do not do that. If i use banish once, to kill that character i have to rift walk. so 40 energy to kill one character followed by an additional 25 per character. His third ability adds additional damage to the team when attacking mobs in the rift.its costs 75 energy. this means that you have to spend an additional 90 energy to get the entire team in the void, plus the 25 to get the individual mobs in. This is where you point out his 4th ability. But lets do some analysis, the 4th ability costs 100 energy. assuming you void everyone on your team thats an additional 90 energy. so to "synergise" completely with your abilities costs 190, and if you activate the third ability (else whats the point of voiding up besides some energy growth for your team) it costs 265 energy. You are in the void for about 30 seconds, so thats 60 energy regained. You have no effectively spent 205 energy to synergise with your 4th ability. now you can say that you arent going put your team into the void so now it only costs you 130 energy. Thats 130 energy to EFFECTIVELY do 1.5 damage plus some DoT and an AoE thing at the end of the 4th ability collapse. Its simply not worth it. To synergise the abilities not only need to work well with each other, (granted they do flow into eachother), but you have to WANT to do so. Unless i have at least another limbo on the team I really do not want to use my abilities except to revive fallen allies and maybe void one of those pesky ancient healers. In short limbos powers dont work well together, they only work when used together. Thats not synergy, its forced dependence. (I suspect the reason why limbo gets 2 energy per second in the void is to combat his ridiculously prohibitive energy costs)

 

Third: In warframe you have a team. 3 other frames with a wide complement of abilities. All of limbos abilities mess with their effectiveness. banish and cataclysm make guns no longer effective from the non void'd, abilities dont do crap either. This means they have to be void'd, which means they cant do crap against the enemies that aren't voided. This means the Synergy that limbo really doesn't have because of prohibitive costs is further void'd (hahaha get it?) because the rest of the team is screwed out of usefulness any of the times those abilities get cast. This is to not say that Limbo cant banish an ally and save his bacon, or void walk to revive an ally, but we've got trinity for healing AND energy regen, which is clearly better than limbo. We've got Valkyr for an invulnerability that is dependent on nobody else being void'd and that by itself deal damage. 

 

Now my Solutions (cuz who likes a whiner who complains and doesnt offer alternatives?)

1. get rid of abilities one and three. Banish was a cool concept that doesn't pan out at higher levels and even when it is useful is either far to situation/beat out by other frames or its cost is higher than it should. and why in gods name would i waste 75 energy to get a paltry 1.5 damage boost?

2. Make powers 2+4 powers 1+2. Nerf cataclysm, make it the second power make it cost like 50 or 40 energy. also allow people from outside able to damage to things inside it, but not vice versa. (I mean if you think about it, if anything going in there becomes void'd, why doesn't this apply to bullets/lasers/rockets/fireballs)? and make the 1.5 damage be inherent to things in the void, they just take more damage in there. 

3. Make power three a true Direct damage CC power. a Flipping void energy beam or void shockwave (a la ME2 perhaps?) or something. Something I can use to deal actual damage, cuz right now all of limbos powers basically rely on guns only.

4. Make power four the thing that forces your entire team into the void. Like blessing use to it could make you invulnerable (maybe only for like 5 seconds) but then let all the damage the team absorbs be turned into a damage multiplier as void energy gets channeled into the only release point: your teams powers and guns.

 

The best thing about this is that the synergy that limbo tried to have doesn't get lost, it still puts people into the void, its fourth ability can give people invulnerability, he keeps void walk as is to be a utility skill (could also make it a lesser version of what i suggest at point 4 if you felt like it), Cataclysm is not longer an up in your face combat forcer, and skill 3, which could cost 50 or 75 energy would give him some damage potential and true CC and the fourth ability which could make him a healer in sorts but in a very different way, giving people energy and damage right after that. 

The greatest downfall of this is that it shows once again a very "magic/sorcerer" frame being primarily pointless. The first being nekros, our resident necromancer who became used only for farming. How long was he only used for desecrate, hell even now? few people seriously used shadows, soul punch was/is unused, and terrify basically being used as a quick panic button, so that he could go back to desecrating away. DE did it again with limbo, a wizard who really will mostly become a one, maybe two trick pony becomes his skills don't work well with others. When ember slams a fireball into some guys face hes stunned, that helps the team. When frost Snow globes around a defense objective, that helps the team. Powers should work well on their own independent of other powers, and work wonder when used together. Limbo doesn't do that, his powers work from pointless to decent used individually, and when used together only produce above average results.  

[GreyEnneract]

Ok one: its not CC aka Crowd Control if its a single target ability. Valkyrs ripline isnt CC, frosts 1st ability isnt CC, novas 1st ability isnt, ash's shuriken isnt (yes it can target two but thats not CC). Banish would only be a CC ability if it fired a bubble the "void'd" all the people it came in contact with or everyone within 5m of the target got void'd. 

 

I agree with most of your points, however here you are wrong. All the abilities you listed are CC excluding Null Star and Shuriken, as they only deal damage. Single Target CC is real, and is in many games. Going by your example Mind Control is not CC. Just because the CC is weak in most cases, does not suddenly unclassify it as CC.

[Jugganatha]

Banish is "angry sibling unplugging your controller" levels of troll.

[Draciusen]

3. Make power three a true Direct damage CC power. a Flipping void energy beam or void shockwave (a la ME2 perhaps?) or something. Something I can use to deal actual damage, cuz right now all of limbos powers basically rely on guns only.

What is Loki?

[Pixelism]

personally i like banish in principle but its not practical for team play. id like banish to be a enemy only power and rift walk to leave a tear as limbo walks into the rift so allies can enter.

rift surge should be removed and made as a passive for just fighting in the rift in the first place and cataclysm is to visually intrusive 

[GreyEnneract]

personally i like banish in principle but its not practical for team play. id like banish to be a enemy only power and rift walk to leave a tear as limbo walks into the rift so allies can enter.

rift surge should be removed and made as a passive for just fighting in the rift in the first place and cataclysm is to visually intrusive 

I agree with you.

[Darkmoone1]

personally i like banish in principle but its not practical for team play. id like banish to be a enemy only power and rift walk to leave a tear as limbo walks into the rift so allies can enter.

rift surge should be removed and made as a passive for just fighting in the rift in the first place and cataclysm is to visually intrusive 

It can work in teams, but only in very organized teams in it's current state(Clans and Recruitment). Matchmaking is a straight up wild card of pleasure or pain from this warframe. If other players had a way to exit limbo themselves without removing the whole property of banish affecting teammates that would be wonderful IMO.

[VampirePirate]

<snip>

Some good ideas here.

[GreyEnneract]

Keep up the feedback and discussion, hopefully DE sees this and fixes Limbo before it's too late.

[ProfessorZero]

I agree with most of your points, however here you are wrong. All the abilities you listed are CC excluding Null Star and Shuriken, as they only deal damage. Single Target CC is real, and is in many games. Going by your example Mind Control is not CC. Just because the CC is weak in most cases, does not suddenly unclassify it as CC.

No, see something like mind control is CC in my definition, because it has the potential to damage multiple targets, and it has utility by "distracting" mobs from yourself. Yes it does effect only one guy, but a napalm could fry like 4 lancers before going down, and pull fire from a bunch of other enemies as well. The distinction im making is that Banish does not do anything besides some damage to one character/basically disarming him. Banish doesn't hurt anyone else, they dont explode when they die. I listed the ones I did because they truly only effect one individual. excluding the ones you agreed with me on ill go thru why the ones I listed aren't CC skills.

Valkyr's Ripline: primarily a mobility skill, it can be used to target one target and pull them rapidly towards you. Much like banish it can effect enemies and allies and also like banish it only does damage to one thing at a time, no "crowd" of mobs are effected by this skill.

 

Frost's (the name escapes me, 1st ability, freeze or something like that): It hits one guy, that guy is frozen and cant do crap for the duration. This has utility, no doubt, but it still effects only ONE person. 

I'd like to say something regarding Nova's null star: yes it can per cast hit 6 people. But its not CC because its no different then just shooting them with a bullet. You can now mod it with syndicate mods to damage alot of people in AoE and that would be CC, but vanilla it is not.

 

Im also going to quick define CC or Crowd Control :

1. It needs to be able to effect (not restricted to just damage) multiple enemies.

2. It needs to enable additional damage occurring afterwards as a result of the ability or a reduction of damage inbound at the player

 

Now obviously the first things that come to mind are Novas ult, Loki's ult, Saryn's ult, and Rhino's ult but those are not 1st (or primary) powers so thats what ill break it down into.

The frames that have clearly CC as a primary ability are: Hydriod, Saryn, Loki, Ember, Nekros, Volt, Banshee, Nyx, Oberon, Vauban, Mag, Mirage

The frames that have questionable CC as a primary ability are: Excalibur, Rhino, Zephyr

I put these three in questionable because they are not as clear cut as the ones above them. Excalibro does line damage to multiple enemies but also becomes invulnerable for the duration, this means he fulfills 1+2, but barely (like half a second of invuln). Rhino does line damage as well but also knocksdown enemies, which clearly fulfills 1+2 because knockdown enemies can be punished freely and theres a inbound damage reduction (IDR). Zephyrs CC comes from knockdown when launching vertically and the damage she inflicts, but this obviously does not occur when shes doing it horizontically, but ill give it to her anyways. 

The frames that have no CC are: Nova (conditional), Frost, Limbo, Trinity, Valkyr.

I discussed Nova up top so I wont here, Frost is not CC because he only fufills condition 2 of CC, same with Valkyr. Trinity's is a heal which only effects one person, and it only heals damage not creating IDR. and Limbo suffers from not hitting multiple targets and he doesnt even really create an IDR, just defers it until later.

[Aspari]

Alright, I thought of a few things for Limbo and this is what came up for me.

 

1. Banish - Replaced by Rift Sphere: Limbo pulls a rift sphere from his hat and throws it at enemies. The sphere flies and shoots out concentrated rift projectiles, causing enemies to take damage as well as have their armor reduced by 1/2/3 points per hit. The sphere is rapid fire and shoots its payload vertically. It will bounce off of walls. Deals bonus damage to enemies in the rift. Can be cast multiple times.

 

2. Rift Walk: Stays relatively the same but with an added feature. If Limbo passes through an enemy they are automatically sent into Riftspace. They take periodic damage while in Riftspace and have their movement speed slowed by 30/40/50%

 

3. Rift Surge - Replaced by Cataclysm: Shares the same damage as Rift Walk's effect, but once an enemy is inside they cannot leave until the containment sphere explodes. They will continue to be scrunched together. Enemies behind cover will suffer collision damage only if they're being pushed towards the epicenter by the containment sphere's wall.

 

4. Originally Cataclysm - Replaced by Grand Finale: Causes all enemies within Riftspace to be imprisoned in a coffin which is subjected to being skewered by multiple rift blades. The imprisonment lasts four seconds and all enemies suffer initial damage and a bleed proc (except for robotic enemies). If cast while Cataclysm, the damage is increased but causes Cataclysm to explode earlier.

 

Perhaps Rift Sphere isn't the best idea, but for a Sorcerer he needs a really good damage source. I also think that the change to Rift Walk will solve the issue with the gimmick conundrum.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Aspari

[GreyEnneract]

-x-

CC is not strictly AoE. After reading this, please get back on topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_control_(video_gaming)

(Copy the link instead of clicking, parentheses broke it on these forums)

Edited October 26, 2014 by GreyEnneract

[FoxFX]

After playing with Limbo to rank 30, I feel the idea is good, but the execution needs some serious work. The fact that you can't pick up items and objective items in missions can be a HUGE drawback and a nuisance for your team. Here are my suggestions on what Limbo's ability should do so far:

 

Rift World (General Idea): I think the idea of items not being able to be picked up in the Rift World doesn't make much sense since you are bringing with you the item that you carry into the Rift World as well. Items that are in the Rift Zone by Cataclysm should be considered part of the Rift Zone as well as any items that a Warframe is carrying (like datamasses) which is sent to the Rift Zone by Banish or that enters it by entering in Cataclysm.

 

Banish: It is fine as is.

 

Rift Walk: Just fix the AOE glitch since enemy AOEs in the Real World are still part of the Real World as well as Eximus Auras.

 

Rift Surge: The idea that you do more damage in the Rift Zone is fine, but there should be another unique add-on to this ability. Activating this skill should allow Limbo to do damage to enemies in the Real World while in the Rift World as well as being able to damage enemies in the Rift World while in the Real World. If Limbo is able to cross both worlds, he should have some way to do this as well.

 

Cataclysm: Idea is good, but some more utility should be added. The explosion @ the end of Cataclysm should deal a bit more damage and have a bit more range as well as being able to knockdown enemies affected by the blast.

 

That or...Change Cataclysm to like some moveable Globe that surrounds Limbo (similar to how Ice Eximus has with their version of Snow Globe) that damages and temporarily stuns enemies that enter and leave the Rift World. Make it into some It shouldn't have a duration and it should be cancellable. Once the skill is cancelled, then the explosion happens.

 

Strategy to Utilize so far with Limbo:

 

Right now, the one effective strategy to be fighting as Limbo is to stay in the Rift World with Rift Walk when in combat and pick-off the stronger enemies using Banish/Cataclysm to bring them into the Rift World to finish them off.

 

And that I guess is my initial take on Limbo the Rift Warframe.