Why Does Archwing Even Exist?

[Nothson]

I agree completely. I know that many players are fond of archwing and I agree that it's got a lot to it that's fun. I wish that DE had made the decision to do this after incomplete/unpolished systems like melee and syndicates were brought up to a quality standard that would make the game feel far more complete. As is, it feels like DE is going for a shallow buffet instead of a gratifying and focused menu.

 

My main problem is that for players who don't like archwing, the content team is now split down the middle in terms of where their effort goes. I'm not looking forward to waiting on Wednesday with glee and seeing an archwing weapon, then logging back out. It's cool, but I'm not sure it's warframe.

 

The systems, all the systems will never ever be brought up to snuff that the player base wants. It simply isn't feasible. Further the addition of the AW does not in anyway mean that those areas will not improve. I do not get where this entire idea that suddenly nothing else matters to DE other than AW when the AW patch brought in Syndicates, new non AW weapons and enemies and a new Warframe, just like most patches do. The hotfixes have even focused heavily on fixing things outside of AW.

 

Think that suddenly AW will prevent fixes in other areas is pure paranoia caused by them adding something that you personally don't like.

[Bansidhe]

The systems, all the systems will never ever be brought up to snuff that the player base wants. It simply isn't feasible. Further the addition of the AW does not in anyway mean that those areas will not improve. I do not get where this entire idea that suddenly nothing else matters to DE other than AW when the AW patch brought in Syndicates, new non AW weapons and enemies and a new Warframe, just like most patches do. The hotfixes have even focused heavily on fixing things outside of AW.

 

Think that suddenly AW will prevent fixes in other areas is pure paranoia caused by them adding something that you personally don't like.

 

While I understand what you are saying the simple fact remains that any resources spent on AW are resources that can not be spent on the core game.

 

It may be, for example, that they have five developers. Four are working on the core game and only one has been assigned to AW. That still means that the core game is only being improved at 80% of the speed that it could have been if all five developers worked on the core. 

 

Just think, without AW, they could have fixed extra bugs and I might be able to do a forward flip without my head bugging into every piece of scenery on the map.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, I could get disarmed by a grineer dog handler and be able to reacquire my weapon as intended instead of it being permanently lost in the landscape.

 

Or, who knows, I might be able to hit the rank up button and actually take the test instead of just being instantly returned to my ship with a Test Failed message.

 

Or I might even be able to find the Rank Up button.

 

Or....

Edited October 28, 2014 by Bansidhe

[Nothson]

While I understand what you are saying the simple fact remains that any resources spent on AW are resources that can not be spent on the core game.

 

It may be, for example, that they have five developers. Four are working on the core game and only one has been assigned to AW. That still means that the core game is only being improved at 80% of the speed that it could have been if all five developers worked on the core. 

 

More people does not necessarily means things go faster (infact more people can sometimes slow down actual development) and the reverse is also true. If they have more staff than they need working on the core game and move unused staff over to AW, then nothing is lost as far as the core game goes. Dynamics of workload and efficiency when developing a game is not some simple equation like you example at all.

[Gordyne]

Threads like this always confuse me.

 

"Warframe is too easy/boring/not fun anymore!"

"This new content sucks!"

 

...wat?

Just because it's new does not make it fun/challenging.

Ppl complain because they rushed new content while leaving behing much needed improvements on the base game.

 

Many claim for quality and devs give quantity.

 

And it's a very valid complaint.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Gordyne

[Buzkyl]

While I understand what you are saying the simple fact remains that any resources spent on AW are resources that can not be spent on the core game.

 

It may be, for example, that they have five developers. Four are working on the core game and only one has been assigned to AW. That still means that the core game is only being improved at 80% of the speed that it could have been if all five developers worked on the core. 

 

Just think, without AW, they could have fixed extra bugs and I might be able to do a forward flip without my head bugging into every piece of scenery on the map.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, I could get disarmed by a grineer dog handler and be able to reacquire my weapon as intended instead of it being permanently lost in the landscape.

 

Or, who knows, I might be able to hit the rank up button and actually take the test instead of just being instantly returned to my ship with a Test Failed message.

 

Or I might even be able to find the Rank Up button.

 

Or....

 

 

Without any content being made the staff could've done that. Archwing is not to blame for the Dev not fixing stuff. Even before archwing existed many of those were possible.

 

Archwing is as part of the game as every other mission.  I'm fairly certain Steve doesn't say "stop what you're doing and make more archwing", no one forces you to like archwing, it's perfectly fine if you don't. But it's as warframe as exterminate.

[Latronico]

Probably because it's fun.

 

Not always. Yesterday I was playing a Corpus archwing mission (Extermination). At 70/109 I was thinking about to quit. It's always the same thing. 

But it's new, it need more contents so I can accept this. 

About archwings themselves, the answer is: because players asked for open-space fights. 

They could not change Tenno from space ninjas to pilots with skimmers and spaceships, so they created archwings. 

Personally I like space battles, but I don't like the new game mode too much. All the missions look empty. The open space around a planet should be full of ships, stations and so on but all you can see is asteroids and a lot of drones. 

Still no space battles between Corpus and Grineer ships, orbital station landings to exterminate the crewmen on them an so on... 

[Rankii]

Really I don't see why we lose our abilities. Things could be a bit better if we still had access them, and several would be outright perfect for this 3d area, like Saryn's Miasma or Forst's Snowglobe. Really the archwing abilities are cumbersome and really take any point of even having a warframe there. Just give us a new thing to control instead of slapping wings on our frames.

[Gordyne]

 

 

The reason you don't see that is because the vast majority of user ideas when it comes to content sound good, but are either far too complex (thus hard to balance, code, implement), or simply suck when actually put in place.

 

Also you are jumping the gun in thinking that Archwing is the priority. It may be in the shortterm, in the long term, it won't be.

 

 

Sorry but if AW didn't exist and some user came up with the idea, it would be dissmissed as beign "too complex" or any of the excuses above.

 

And the very ones that love AW would be giving the same excuses.

 

Truth is, if they want it, they'll do it, if not they'll find an excuse.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Gordyne

[StinkyPygmy]

Speak for yourself, and do not use the plural of the 'rest of us'; Just makes you sound childish.

 

 

I could careless about the forums or any forums community opinion. This update is a mini-game, and a buggy one at that; It could have been rolled of by DE as a separate game, and marketed as such.

 

I am interested in playing a ninja game with swords and stuff, that is my subjective view of 'fun' that i do not pretend is shared by anyone. If DE wants to make a space fantasy simulator, i'll quit out of sheer boredom. I can not tolerated playing a flying simulator type of game for more than a few hours before it gets boring.

"rest of us" as in, those who enjoy archwing. Refrain from the unnecessary insults.

 

Me sound childish? I'm not the one demanding something I don't like go away despite the fact many people do in fact like it. I'm not the one telling you that you have to like/dislike something.

No need to get up in my grill about it and be rather hypocritical.

 

You aren't forced to play archwing as it is now. You don't have to involve yourself with it if its not your cup of tea. But getting all worked up about it isn't the answer nor is it productive.

Edited October 28, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[CY13ERPUNK]

Drama for attention; but I digress. It's not necessarily a horrible thing on principle, but as it is it's totally removed from the rest of the game. If we saw something like new tilesets with archwing segments or the ability to use 'land-guns' in space that attempted to actually extend the existing gameplay, I'd be all for it. Instead, it's totally separate from existing content instead of being an actual expansion of what already exists. It doesn't make sense.

 

yep, and +1 OP

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

I neither support or condone the OP's assertion (I just support the premise of questioning why DE did certain things); and my issue is, how the Archwing are an entire new redundant mod/weapon system that could be entirely new game. The Archwing game-play is currently inferior to decades old Playstation 2 games, and that is something anyone could make an entire topic about, but i expect DE will work on that issue. 

 

Also, what have i demanded? The only thing that bothered me was your use of 'rest of us', as a generic bandwagon dismissals of my post with your: "Then go play Zone of Enders." I am neither worked up or have an emotional investment in Archwing, or this topic.

Edited October 28, 2014 by LazyKnight

[ra9una]

I'm sorry, I just have to: Because space ninjas..... In space!

[Zanukacola]

Can this thread be deleted already ? Jeez.

Why are you still here?

 

The systems, all the systems will never ever be brought up to snuff that the player base wants. It simply isn't feasible. Further the addition of the AW does not in anyway mean that those areas will not improve. I do not get where this entire idea that suddenly nothing else matters to DE other than AW when the AW patch brought in Syndicates, new non AW weapons and enemies and a new Warframe, just like most patches do. The hotfixes have even focused heavily on fixing things outside of AW.

 

Think that suddenly AW will prevent fixes in other areas is pure paranoia caused by them adding something that you personally don't like.

Nobody is claiming that the creation of AW will lead to a sudden freeze in any other progress in the game's development. But developing AW in any way costs manpower that *could* have been used to improve core gameplay. As AW creates gameplay markedly different from what drew players to Warframe in the first place, I consider this manpower 'shift' to be detrimental regardless of its magnitude. 

 

"rest of us" as in, those who enjoy archwing. Refrain from the unnecessary insults.

 

Me sound childish? I'm not the one demanding something I don't like go away despite the fact many people do in fact like it. I'm not the one telling you that you have to like/dislike something.

No need to get up in my grill about it and be rather hypocritical.

 

You aren't forced to play archwing as it is now. You don't have to involve yourself with it if its not your cup of tea. But getting all worked up about it isn't the answer nor is it productive.

 

But we ARE forced to play Archwing; my distilling extractors are now useless until I complete the AW nodes added to each planet, and I need to play the mode to unlock Limbo. The fact that I will actually *lose* content I've already unlocked and be denied access to new content means that opting-out of AW is not a reasonable option.

Edited October 28, 2014 by qujokun

[vaugahn]

Nobody is claiming that the creation of AW will lead to a sudden freeze in any other progress in the game's development. But developing AW in any way costs manpower that *could* have been used to improve core gameplay. As AW creates gameplay markedly different from what drew players to Warframe in the first place, I consider this manpower 'shift' to be detrimental regardless of its magnitude. 

 

We don't know that.

 

DE just made 11 million dollars and then some off an absolutely massive business deal. It's quite possible their development resources have considerably expanded. 

 

Also, they already have many separate teams for XB1, PS, debugging, web design, art, and stuff like that. It's hard to say that the manpower involved in creating archwing could have been used elsewhere when we don't know what manpower was involved in creating archwing, or if that manpower could have been used elsewhere, or what percentage of their total manpower was involved. 

[Nothson]

 

Nobody is claiming that the creation of AW will lead to a sudden freeze in any other progress in the game's development. But developing AW in any way costs manpower that *could* have been used to improve core gameplay. As AW creates gameplay markedly different from what drew players to Warframe in the first place, I consider this manpower 'shift' to be detrimental regardless of its magnitude. 

 

 

Again, more manpower does not equal more improvements or more content of the base game. Game development is weird like that. More manpower can actually slow development. It is better to move people to new projects or features if your current features already have enough people working on them. If their teams are saturated, then there is no point to adding more people to them.

[Goosmo]

My response in a walnut

I'm allergic to walnuts.

[Tigercloud]

Warframe is a game of evolution. That's why *I* love it. It continues to change and expand, and this newest evolution, Archwing, is one of the most awesome things I've seen DE do yet. While the OP sees it as something that detracts from the core game, I, at least, see it as something which expands Warframe into something bigger and better. It's like the Compsognathus grew wings and turned into Archaeopteryx. FLIGHT, *@##$ES! DEAL WITH IT! ;)

 

As long as DE doesn't tread on its old content and destroy it, THIS is the way Warframe should go. Yes, DE should fix old bugs, old content, old gameplay problems, and continue to refine and expand on everything they've made so far. If DE ever stops doing that, I will be complaining with you. But they haven't. Update 15, as just one example, introduced (FINALLY) air attacks. The Archwing patch didn't prevent them from finally addressing that old gameplay issue, it included it.

 

For those who are using the argument of all the bugs that are there which, supposedly, DE *could've* fixed if they weren't frittering all their time away on Archwing, I ask you to consider almost every single major content patch in the last year. The Sword Alone (Update 13) and The Mad Cephalon (Update 14) all had crazy bugs after they were released. On Update 14, I couldn't even get through the ship quest because of a very simple bug which stopped the entire questline. After Update 13 hit, *how many* bugs were there with the new melee system? How many complaints were howling from the voices of the Warframe community?

 

None of those had Archwing in it. Archwing is not the problem.

 

For those using the argument that this detracts from core gameplay improvements: this patch introduced 44: THAT'S FORTY-FOUR, new non-Archwing mods. 20 of those alter how Warframe abilities work; a completely new development to the game, which addresses core gameplay. 16 new weapon/Warframe mods that affect entirely new stat types: beam range, projectile speed, and proc time, as well as new corrupted mod combinations which give new build options. 18 new weapon mods, that come from a new gameplay element, Syndicates, (which affects core gameplay by essentially making a new XP bar which is a resource which can be traded for new loot), that for the first time are weapon-specific (disregarding glaive mods), and apparently introduce a new gameplay mechanic (+1 Justice, whatever that means ;) ).

 

There are new tilesets, experimental gameplay modes which have now been integrated into the game, new enemies, a new mini-boss, a new Warframe, new weapons, allowing all Warframes to use each others animations, a Mod Screen Search Bar, for gods sake, reskinned/new hacking minigames (CORE GAMEPLAY, NOT UPDATED SINCE FOREVER [yes, I know it's not very important, but it's still an example, and an old part of the game]), stacking Defense/Interception rewards (remember how long some people have clamored for that?).

 

I don't need to exaggerate. DE did all of that in this patch. Compare how much has been changed, non-Archwing content, in this patch compared to prior release patches. In some cases there was more content in prior patches. In some cases, there was less. We will have to see how much, post-Archwing, "core" gameplay content diminishes. But I personally doubt it will have any noticeable impact.

 

OP, ultimately, your complaints rest on two realities. One is that you don't like Archwing. Two is that you are upset that:

 

But we ARE forced to play Archwing; my distilling extractors are now useless until I complete the AW nodes added to each planet, and I need to play the mode to unlock Limbo. The fact that I will actually *lose* content I've already unlocked and be denied access to new content means that opting-out of AW is not a reasonable option.

 

The latter is a reasonable complaint. The former is invalid unless literally the entire Warframe community dislikes Archwing. But that is not the case. A significant number of us love Archwing and the potential it has and the directions it can go in. Perhaps instead of saying: "Archwing is a cancerous tumor and we need to destroy it for the love of Warframe!", you should've just said this:

 

"Please make Archwing missions like Dark Sector missions, where they do not count as being part of the unlockable nodes required to unlock a planet. Also, in the future, it would be nice not to gate content behind different gameplay modes that people may not enjoy."

 

You may not get what you want, but it's far better than trying to start an ideological war where a significant proportion of the community stands in opposition to you.

 

Again, more manpower does not equal more improvements or more content of the base game. Game development is weird like that. More manpower can actually slow development. It is better to move people to new projects or features if your current features already have enough people working on them. If their teams are saturated, then there is no point to adding more people to them.

 

I'm gonna add my voice to the general thread consensus: It's really fun. I think Archwing freshens the experience, two completely different ways to play that still retain many core elements of each other. If I get bored of regular Warframe missions, Archwing is there to satisfy me, and when Archwing gets a tad bit boring, I can return to the base game with renewed vigor. As someone who was only logging in to Warframe to check out the new guns because I had done everything else, Archwing made the game fun to play, not just because it in itself is fun, but because the way it is placed in the game can serve to freshen the entire game for me.

 

^These two address everything else.

[Zanukacola]

snip snip

You've seriously oversimplified my issues with AW. I'm going to assume you're not trying to straw-man my argument and re-explain my position: First, and let me make this abundantly clear, I don't have an immense problem with the actual gameplay of Archwing. Yes, it's bug-ridden, but so is everything else on release. I'm well aware of this and I don't hold it against AW.

My issue with AW is with its opportunity cost. Yes, I'm well aware that 'throw more people at it' isn't an effective strategy in game development. No, I don't pretend that just putting all of DE on fixing bugs is an effective strategy. But the fact is that any time spent on developing Archwing could have been spent developing something else. Yes, there probably is a distinct team working on AW. Maybe, as many people are suggesting, this won't significantly impact non-AW content or bug fixes. I'm lamenting the opportunity cost of developing AW; this update should have been dedicated to literally anything else.

This is a bold claim, but I'll summarize why I make it (again).

1.) Warframe is a game that is largely about progression, e.g. turning a level 0 weapon into a murdering machine through time, effort, and formas. Archwing ignores almost all of that progression in favor of a vastly inferior new set of weapons and 'frames' for no reason.

2.) Archwing introduces what is effectively a different genre of gameplay that does not overlap with normal warframe TPS and renders many existing assets useless, re: AI, minimap.

3.) No matter how much energy DE puts into improving AW, it's going to fall short compared to games devoted to the 3-D dog-fighting genre. I defy you to find anything AW brings to the table that other games don't aside from 'being set in the Warframe universe'.

The crux of my point has nothing to do with me 'not liking' Archwing. My problem is that DE is committing to supporting a mini-game that has minimal overlap with existing content and occupies a genre different from everything else in the game.

If it was a quirky self-contained one-off e.g. kubrow breeding, I'd be fine. If it was integrated with existing content, I'd be fine. Instead it's a game within a game, elaborate enough to draw attention and resources but so tangential that it will never be strong enough to stand on its own merits.

Edited October 29, 2014 by qujokun

[Seox]

The systems, all the systems will never ever be brought up to snuff that the player base wants. It simply isn't feasible. Further the addition of the AW does not in anyway mean that those areas will not improve. I do not get where this entire idea that suddenly nothing else matters to DE other than AW when the AW patch brought in Syndicates, new non AW weapons and enemies and a new Warframe, just like most patches do. The hotfixes have even focused heavily on fixing things outside of AW.

 

Think that suddenly AW will prevent fixes in other areas is pure paranoia caused by them adding something that you personally don't like.

 

When did I say any of that? 

 

As a matter of fact, I specifically said that it would be "cut down the middle" - attention would be split among different things.

 

Please refute my points and not straw Seox's points.

[Renegade343]

As a matter of fact, I specifically said that it would be "cut down the middle" - attention would be split among different things.

Then again, DE(L) can choose to do this: 

 

90% of attention on fixing old content, 10% of attention on adding new content for a few weeks. 

Then, swap to 10% of attention on fixing old content, 90% of attention on adding new content for another few weeks. 

 

I mean, DE(L)'s employees are pretty competent. All they need is a timeline (and maybe an overseer to make sure the timeline is followed). 

[Nothson]

When did I say any of that? 

 

As a matter of fact, I specifically said that it would be "cut down the middle" - attention would be split among different things.

 

Please refute my points and not straw Seox's points.

 

You make statements that lead one to believe that AW is taking away from the core game. Insisting that the team is now split shows that. It is very possible that no one has been taken off of the team and only added to it, thus the AW has taken nothing away. Further it could have gotten to the point where they have refined their development techniques to the point that they don't need as many people to do what they used or that more people no longer improve the speed or efficiency of fixes and core gameplay. When you reach that point, you almost always funnel people off to work on new features and projects such as AW and the impact on the core gameplay is minimal.

[Seox]

You make statements that lead one to believe that AW is taking away from the core game. Insisting that the team is now split shows that. It is very possible that no one has been taken off of the team and only added to it, thus the AW has taken nothing away. Further it could have gotten to the point where they have refined their development techniques to the point that they don't need as many people to do what they used or that more people no longer improve the speed or efficiency of fixes and core gameplay. When you reach that point, you almost always funnel people off to work on new features and projects such as AW and the impact on the core gameplay is minimal.

 

Saying that attention is being pulled from other aspects of the game is a far cry from saying that other areas of the game will not improve.

 

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle, and that they've probably given AW a bit of additional resources to keep from putting the whole burden on the main content team, but that's still effort focused on a gametype that some people don't like because it fundamentally diverges from what Warframe was when they signed up. It's practically a different genre, and while I feel that it's at least fun, there are people who rightfully feel that it isn't for them. It's one thing to add a faction people don't like or a tileset that doesn't appeal to people, but this is a new game entirely, and you'd be silly not to at least recognize where these people are coming from.

[StinkyPygmy]

I neither support or condone the OP's assertion (I just support the premise of questioning why DE did certain things); and my issue is, how the Archwing are an entire new redundant mod/weapon system that could be entirely new game. The Archwing game-play is currently inferior to decades old Playstation 2 games, and that is something anyone could make an entire topic about, but i expect DE will work on that issue. 

 

Also, what have i demanded? The only thing that bothered me was your use of 'rest of us', as a generic bandwagon dismissals of my post with your: "Then go play Zone of Enders." I am neither worked up or have an emotional investment in Archwing, or this topic.

So the issue was based on an irrational gripe with the way I worded something?

Ok then. 

 

These aren't generic bandwagon dismissals. The point is people are comparing the first incarnation of archwing to other games, most of which aren't online games or whose only similarity is they have space combat, and using that as a basis for why archwing shouldn't exist or is irrelevant/broken/terrible etc. The funny thing is, most of the issues people have with archwing (it lacking depth, not tying into other gameplay etc) are ones that will likely be solved and worked on. This is the first instance of it we have and already people are assuming this is all it will ever be.

 

It has its flaws, but I and many other people are happy to sit here and enjoy it for what it is. If I wanted to play zone of enders then I'd go do that, not sit here and start comparing it to archwing. I'm not going to compare it to other games, especially ones that are dedicated to space dogfights as thats pretty much irrelevant. It seems clear that some players would be unhappy with archwing regardless of how good or bad it is.

[torsoul]

After assembling the first Archwing and re-unlocking my systems for extractors, I feel no draw to running any more Archwing missions.  I imagine Archwing was created as a sales pitch to find an investor, aka the chicken factory.  A "look what I can do" to draw the ooohs and aaahs.  Obviously it succeeded.  However, it really doesn't add to the experience of Warframe, its just tacks on a separate game system.  Growth in one system doesn't carry over to the other.  For it to work, it should enhance the existing gameplay, not replace it.  For instance:

 

- Void missions could be chained together using the Archwing, giving enhanced completion bonuses.  At some point in the mission, the group can choose to extract or move to a higher tier mission via Archwing, perhaps removing the key requirement.

 

- Archwings should inherit "space modified" versions of a warframes powerset and weapons instead of replacing them.  Different Archwings could apply modifiers or other special abilities, but the wholesale replacement of skills and weapons doesn't feel like an integrated experience.  If I attach Odonata to Nekros, I want to play enhanced Nekros in space, not Odonata.

 

- Archwings could open up hidden exploration opportunities in mission maps that are adjacent to space.

 

Just a few thoughts, but I think the OP is correct.

[Tigercloud]

You've seriously oversimplified my issues with AW. I'm going to assume you're not trying to straw-man my argument and re-explain my position: First, and let me make this abundantly clear, I don't have an immense problem with the actual gameplay of Archwing. Yes, it's bug-ridden, but so is everything else on release. I'm well aware of this and I don't hold it against AW.

My issue with AW is with its opportunity cost. Yes, I'm well aware that 'throw more people at it' isn't an effective strategy in game development. No, I don't pretend that just putting all of DE on fixing bugs is an effective strategy. But the fact is that any time spent on developing Archwing could have been spent developing something else. Yes, there probably is a distinct team working on AW. Maybe, as many people are suggesting, this won't significantly impact non-AW content or bug fixes. I'm lamenting the opportunity cost of developing AW; this update should have been dedicated to literally anything else.

This is a bold claim, but I'll summarize why I make it (again).

1.) Warframe is a game that is largely about progression, e.g. turning a level 0 weapon into a murdering machine through time, effort, and formas. Archwing ignores almost all of that progression in favor of a vastly inferior new set of weapons and 'frames' for no reason.

2.) Archwing introduces what is effectively a different genre of gameplay that does not overlap with normal warframe TPS and renders many existing assets useless, re: AI, minimap.

3.) No matter how much energy DE puts into improving AW, it's going to fall short compared to games devoted to the 3-D dog-fighting genre. I defy you to find anything AW brings to the table that other games don't aside from 'being set in the Warframe universe'.

The crux of my point has nothing to do with me 'not liking' Archwing. My problem is that DE is committing to supporting a mini-game that has minimal overlap with existing content and occupies a genre different from everything else in the game.

If it was a quirky self-contained one-off e.g. kubrow breeding, I'd be fine. If it was integrated with existing content, I'd be fine. Instead it's a game within a game, elaborate enough to draw attention and resources but so tangential that it will never be strong enough to stand on its own merits.

 

I understand, and I think we are fundamentally in disagreement, which is okay. Probably some day something will happen which really grinds my gears, and I'll just have to accept it unless it's something which the vast majority of the community finds distasteful as well.

 

1. I don't care only about progression. I don't equate progression with fun. Sometimes progression is fun. Sometimes being a flying space ninja angel of death is fun. The only reason there is no reason for you, not me, is because you seem to think Warframe "is a game that is largely about progression, e.g. turning a level 0 weapon into a murdering machine through time, effort, and formas." What you're essentially saying, to me, is Warframe is only a game of progression. Fine. You find that fun, and thus you find Archwing's introduction to be unreasonable. I find having a new mode of combat that is aesthetically pleasing, provides an alternate branch that I have to gear up (a new branch of progression, as it were, and a different area to grind in rather than having to grind T1-4 to just have a chance to upgrade my nearly god-mode frame), expanded opportunities for storytelling, and being a freakin' flying BAD @$$, is fun. Thus Archwing is absolutely reasonable for me.

 

2. That's the beauty of it. Reread Flamingfighter's post, either on the first page, or requoted in my post. "Archwing freshens the experience, two completely different ways to play that still retain many core elements of each other. If I get bored of regular Warframe missions, Archwing is there to satisfy me, and when Archwing gets a tad bit boring, I can return to the base game with renewed vigor." This. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. The AI and the minimap will be upgraded and fixed in time, although I believe the argument you're making is that these assets can no longer be shared between the ground-based Warframe and the Archwing Warframe experience. True.

 

3. 'being set in the Warframe universe' is all I need. In the future, I'm sure DE will give me new surprises that will make Archwing even better. And sometimes worse. Because c'mon, I'll admit it, they aren't perfect.

 

So can we agree to disagree? Your problem: "that DE is committing to supporting a mini-game that has minimal overlap with existing content and occupies a genre different from everything else in the game," is my feature. Your statement that Archwing is "a game within a game, elaborate enough to draw attention and resources but so tangential that it will never be strong enough to stand on its own merits," is your opinion, because for me, and for other players here (not all, but many), Archwing already stands on its own merits.

And we love DE for it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Jiufengbao