Why Does Archwing Even Exist?

[MoistWomble]

Archwing is fun, as all the updates with many bugs but still fun, i love to fly into space with high speed!

[KaptainK3nny]

-Snip-

Well i dont D:

[buttwich]

Here's a couple things that all mission types share: a common pool of guns, a common pool of warframes, a common pool of melee weapons,  identical character movement mechanics, common tilesets, credits, resources, mod sets, gravity. Archwing shares none of that.

 

Arguing that the difference between capture and defense is similar in scope to the difference between 'classic' and Archwing missions is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Never before has DE implemented content that is totally unusable in most contexts; everything until now has been usable across all mission types, from kubrows to stances to damage 2.0 to all new frames to EVERYTHING BUT ARCHWING

 

Ok yeah this game definitely never should be innovated or changed at all. You've been around for as long as I have, and if DE had your mindset we'd still have static non-immersive menus, and everything 1.0 still. Give this a chance bru

Edited October 29, 2014 by buttwich

[Llyssa]

Here's a couple things that all mission types share: a common pool of guns, a common pool of warframes, a common pool of melee weapons,  identical character movement mechanics, common tilesets, credits, resources, mod sets, gravity. Archwing shares none of that.

 

Arguing that the difference between capture and defense is similar in scope to the difference between 'classic' and Archwing missions is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Never before has DE implemented content that is totally unusable in most contexts; everything until now has been usable across all mission types, from kubrows to stances to damage 2.0 to all new frames to EVERYTHING BUT ARCHWING

Common tilesets? Really? When's the last time you saw a defense room in a capture mission? When's the last time you managed to wall run anything on earth? In the corpus space ship? Huh.

 

Well, what about people who unequip their melee? Oh wow, MASSIVE movement change. Why do they even allow that, huh?

 

They've implemented rail conflicts, tower keys, prime variants(most of which only have 1 special that only works on 1 tileset at 1 type of location), they've implemented nightmare modes that make 1/2 of your mods totally useless...

 

To claim that mercury captures as excal and t4 defense as zephyr are "similar in scope", THAT is absolutely ridiculous. At least get the things they have in common(resources? ha. yes, find argon on mercury for me, please! identical tilest? yeah, can't tell the difference between those two! identical gravity and movements? hahahahahahaha.)

 

Archwing interception and classic interception use the same mechanics, the same voice announcing, same warframes, same credits, same resources, same mission rewards... the biggest difference is one has a visible skybox on 4 directions, and the other only has a visible skybox in 3.

 

Oh, and of your listed "useable across all mission types" list, stances, damage 2.0 and all new frames work in archwing.

 

If you're still hung up on pets and weapon selection, well, I hate to break it to you, but those of us that got past rank 0 have had to deal with these tests that have been around forever, where pets don't work at all, and weapon selection can be almost entirely removed. The same also goes for the prologue quest, but that is significantly newer.

[MichaelSD]

I agree with OP. Honestly, Archwing was a one trick pony to me too. I am not going to get Limbo (the first time I omit a frame), because I will not grind Archwing. It was nice for a couple of hours, but I have more engaging shooters on my mobile phone.

Also we still have no background on the game, it would only take one good story writer to create background fluff. Hell, we got that with the first warframes, with the news ones we do not even have that!. We got Syndicates who are described in 2 sentences which does not help immersion. Also, the old content has so many opportunities to improve and expand.

 

I really hope Archwing will be more or less avoidable for players who do not wish to play it.

[optyk]

I'm tempted to cynically say that this whole new content pool is introduced to make veteran players start fresh (and buy plat) while offering new players a shiny new gimmick to be lured in by. I don't presume to know what motivates the developers, however, so I'm not going to vilify them unnecessarily.

 

You're not being cynical, you're being upfront, honest and a smart consumerist/investor; which is what the gaming industry has turned us into with the invention of "Free 2 Play".

 

It's quite easy to "presume" to know what motivates game developers or anyone else that sells a product; income. Developers are humans as well, and have bills like the rest of us and require money just like all of us. For a few minutes, think to yourself in a logical realistic way that Warframe is your product and you want it to grow, to generate revenue, to attract new customers and keep the existing ones as happy as can be. What would that take? -You answered that already and it does not mean you vilified them.

 

 

What is debatable tho, is how are they introducing new features to their product. Is it consumer friendly or too aggressive? Are they holding up to their previous statements on aspects of the game or not? Does their vision of the game still resemble what they originally set it out to be? Do they listen to the customers or do they just entertain them to a degree and do what they want anyways? etc etc...

 

My biggest gripe is now that Warframe has clearly dipped its toes into the MMORPG pool, it still has time gates and pay gates, we need a "premium" monthly subscription method(with a Plat allowance, XP bonus, reduced crafting time wait etc) for those who desire it. Because it's very quickly starting to resemble Star Trek Online and Star Wars:TOR in terms of mechanics like advancement, item leveling, faction systems(with rewards) and time/pay walls. Its not a coincidence or conspiracy its just plain obvious and asking us to make separate payments to break those gate/wall barriers on each individual item in game, is just too much.

 

Otherwise, Warframe is going to become a very, very expensive "Free 2 Play" game to fully experience. I have 1,650hrs into Warframe so far, with the latest update tho, I'm not sure how much more I'm going to be willing to do. The game seems to be having an identity crisis or something...

[Zanukacola]

Common tilesets? Really? When's the last time you saw a defense room in a capture mission? When's the last time you managed to wall run anything on earth? In the corpus space ship? Huh.

 

Well, what about people who unequip their melee? Oh wow, MASSIVE movement change. Why do they even allow that, huh?

 

They've implemented rail conflicts, tower keys, prime variants(most of which only have 1 special that only works on 1 tileset at 1 type of location), they've implemented nightmare modes that make 1/2 of your mods totally useless...

 

To claim that mercury captures as excal and t4 defense as zephyr are "similar in scope", THAT is absolutely ridiculous. At least get the things they have in common(resources? ha. yes, find argon on mercury for me, please! identical tilest? yeah, can't tell the difference between those two! identical gravity and movements? hahahahahahaha.)

 

Archwing interception and classic interception use the same mechanics, the same voice announcing, same warframes, same credits, same resources, same mission rewards... the biggest difference is one has a visible skybox on 4 directions, and the other only has a visible skybox in 3.

 

Oh, and of your listed "useable across all mission types" list, stances, damage 2.0 and all new frames work in archwing.

 

If you're still hung up on pets and weapon selection, well, I hate to break it to you, but those of us that got past rank 0 have had to deal with these tests that have been around forever, where pets don't work at all, and weapon selection can be almost entirely removed. The same also goes for the prologue quest, but that is significantly newer.

 

Let's take it from the top. Defense tilesets are often shared with interception, but regardless fit thematically with certain groups, re: void defense takes place in a location that shares assets with every other void type. By assets, I mean enemy types, types of breakable objects, environmental hazards, etc. Archwing shares no enemy types or environmental assets with normal WF, though aesthetics are shared.

 

Prime variants may contain easter eggs pertinent to the void, and nightmare may make certain mods less useful; but I can still take my ember prime into any mission type no matter what, just like I can equip shield mods when I go into a no-shield nightmare. I can never, under any circumstance, bring my Veritux into any mission type that isn't Archwing. 

 

I suggested that land based missions share common tilesets with eachother, not that they all share an identical tileset.

 

I mentioned gravity because it exists in all ground based missions, which is a fact. I can play zephyr and have less gravity, but when I press space and jump, I still come down. Not so in Archwing. The dominant traits of warframes, their abilities, are absent in Archwing unlike any other game-mode. 

 

Mission rewards, at least in interception, are either parts of the second Archwing or Archwing mods. The set of mod drops in Archwing has no overlap with the mods for ground missions. I can drop a 'Vitality' mod while playing t4 defense as Zephyr or while doing my first mission on mercury. There is no place in Archwing where I can drop any mod other than an Archwing mod.

 

There are no stances in Archwing. Regardless, I cited other major updates as examples of things that were available across all game modes, not examples of things that aren't available in Archwing.

 

Mastery tests are not a game mode. You spend orders of magnitude more time in menus than you do in mastery tests. Would you argue that the player ship is a game-mode as well?

 

Above all, not being able to jump and being unaffected by gravity entirely are very significant differences, as moving is the most basic action you take in a shooter, or any game, really. Or in life. 

 

I hope I've answered the majority of your objections. I suspect it's a waste of time, because you've proved yourself willing to aggressively misinterpret what I write, straw-man my arguments, imply that I've said things that I literally haven't, and make factually untrue claims, all while maintaining a consistently hostile tone.

 

Nonetheless, if you have any interest in anything resembling a reasonable dialogue on this topic, I'd appreciate it if you read my post a little more carefully before responding again.

Edited October 29, 2014 by qujokun

[Pavelord]

Is this a problem coming from seeing Warframe as a ninja game, and space combat being out of place in a ninja theme game?, I´m under the impression that ninja was used superficially used to explain what the game looked like, I don´t see real reasons to limit ourselves just to ground TPS and stealth, I come from games like Gundam in which you play missions on land, on ships and in space, so for me its comes naturally that a game located mostly in space push into space.

 

I know some people don´t like to bring logic to warframe, but I think not sharing your arsenal in archwing missions makes sense, the enviroment is different so we have different weapons, just like you won´t see a SWAT team bringing heavy machine guns and rocket lunchers inside a building you won´t also see soldiers and airplanes armed with submachine guns, just as the characteristics of torpedoes are probably different from air to air missiles. 

 

I still won´t go as far as say I love archwing but it has been entertaining so far, and it has enough complexity not to be called a mini game, that would put it on the same standing as Flappy Zephyr and Wyrmius.

 

I´m also discontent with parts of this update, but I don´t think they are gonna go away, but I sure hope this discussions only bring improvements for all parts.

[vaugahn]

I'm seeing a lot of "Archwing isn't thematically appropriate/DE has lost their way" type stuff.

 

Remember, Archwing was in development for like a year. So it's not like this is just a recent random decision to put jetpacks into the game.

[Temmron]

I find it funny how people critisice things that were just introduced a week ago

You should have seen when WF came out of closed beta

I personally think it is a very fun new section and with bigger maps more mission variety more enemies more rewards some bosses etc.. it could actually add to the game by quite a bit

Give DE some time to actually fix bugs and develop new content before you go and smash something that was just released

It takes nothing from the main game since there is nothing to take from...

main game is boring to veteran players atm at least. The only thing I do in main game is try to get my syndicate ranking higher and thats it I have all the rest that I want/need from the "main-game" (even though basically archwing is part of the "main-game")

Edited October 29, 2014 by Seyenas

[Temmron]

You're not being cynical, you're being upfront, honest and a smart consumerist/investor; which is what the gaming industry has turned us into with the invention of "Free 2 Play".

 

It's quite easy to "presume" to know what motivates game developers or anyone else that sells a product; income. Developers are humans as well, and have bills like the rest of us and require money just like all of us. For a few minutes, think to yourself in a logical realistic way that Warframe is your product and you want it to grow, to generate revenue, to attract new customers and keep the existing ones as happy as can be. What would that take? -You answered that already and it does not mean you vilified them.

 

 

What is debatable tho, is how are they introducing new features to their product. Is it consumer friendly or too aggressive? Are they holding up to their previous statements on aspects of the game or not? Does their vision of the game still resemble what they originally set it out to be? Do they listen to the customers or do they just entertain them to a degree and do what they want anyways? etc etc...

 

My biggest gripe is now that Warframe has clearly dipped its toes into the MMORPG pool, it still has time gates and pay gates, we need a "premium" monthly subscription method(with a Plat allowance, XP bonus, reduced crafting time wait etc) for those who desire it. Because it's very quickly starting to resemble Star Trek Online and Star Wars:TOR in terms of mechanics like advancement, item leveling, faction systems(with rewards) and time/pay walls. Its not a coincidence or conspiracy its just plain obvious and asking us to make separate payments to break those gate/wall barriers on each individual item in game, is just too much.

 

Otherwise, Warframe is going to become a very, very expensive "Free 2 Play" game to fully experience. I have 1,650hrs into Warframe so far, with the latest update tho, I'm not sure how much more I'm going to be willing to do. The game seems to be having an identity crisis or something...

I have noticed this too and am not particularly fond about this change

I think his could be destructive for WF instead of gaining more income DE has to address the many time/paywalls and the grind ASAP or they will lose a majority of their playerbase

[scavenge]

Overall I have to agree and I played archwing for a bit now. The exterminate and sabotage missions... I don't even want to after unlocking the nodes. Interception gets boring fast cause of the AI, basicly just get all nodes then all 4 guys stay crammed at 1 node and go to the next if it gets taken.

 

It's a nice gimmick but nothing too valuable imho.

 

Edit: Also bad that it takes from our Waframes, that's really terrible if you think about it, must ask why it was greenlighted.

Edited October 29, 2014 by scavenge

[Nira]

I agree with a lot of the points the OP made, though by his own admission his terminology was a little exaggerated in places.

 

Most of all I fail to see what Archwing offers with "lore/story". I understand that's tentative grounds to base a complaint for content in Warframe, but I actually have no clue how Tenno going into space via Archwing is helping stop the invasion of Hek's latest hulking warships. Seriously, am I missing something?

Edited October 29, 2014 by Dualice

[Horonelius]

This thread sounds familiar....

Oh wait.

[JapariBun]

DE has great ideas, but I would like it if those ideas worked together. Maybe an archwing/ground mission if applicable. Then fix those ideas, and improve upon them. Then, add a whole new thing when appropriate.

[MichaelSD]

No, do not chain Archwing and ground mission. For now we can avoid Archwing if we want to, if they chain them, it will be impossible.

 

Regarding fun, I have fun on the ground missions, thank you. Is that not fun enough! ;)

[Nira]

 

*post*

 

 

I don't quite know what you're trying to do here... I suspect it's an attempt to deride those that need a degree of immersion in a game to enjoy it. If that is the case... that's quite close-minded of you.

[JapariBun]

No, do not chain Archwing and ground mission. For now we can avoid Archwing if we want to, if they chain them, it will be impossible.

 

Regarding fun, I have fun on the ground missions, thank you. Is that not fun enough! ;)

 

They would still have to be labeled separately in the node selection, since some people might not have an Archwing. It would add more dynamic to missions though.

[S.T.M.P.D]

It is fun! I agree! But it's not Warframe, it's basically a different game.

 

You're acting as if Warframe *with gravity* is a space that's totally played out, but there's alot yet to be explored: actual stealth gameplay, real end-game content, AI improvements, and so on. Diverting efforts from improving those elements in favor of creating a novel mode that adds nothing to core gameplay is a cop-out, and as much as you like that it's sparkly and new, it's going to suffer from the same problems that frustrate you in the rest of Warframe.

Alright. That's a legitimate point. Not to mention people tell me it's unfair hard - the bad kind of hard - and ridiculously buggy.

 

But DE worked on this thing for over a year, then put it out, so I can't say it detracted from resources. Now, they worked on Warframe for a year then put it into closed beta. Back then the game was bad and weird and it took DE's finest maddest alcoytes to bring it in the direction that's put it at number 9 on Steam.

 

Integration failure? Well, there's a lot of potential here. It'd be intriguing to rapidly switch between the two gamemodes in a single mission, etc etc.

 

Point is: This, my friend, is beta. It is not a final product. What we have here is something of great potential that could not stand on its own, but with an already devoted playerbase, could be something amazing. Patience, above all, is a virtue.

[Zanukacola]

Alright. That's a legitimate point. Not to mention people tell me it's unfair hard - the bad kind of hard - and ridiculously buggy.

 

But DE worked on this thing for over a year, then put it out, so I can't say it detracted from resources. Now, they worked on Warframe for a year then put it into closed beta. Back then the game was bad and weird and it took DE's finest maddest alcoytes to bring it in the direction that's put it at number 9 on Steam.

 

Integration failure? Well, there's a lot of potential here. It'd be intriguing to rapidly switch between the two gamemodes in a single mission, etc etc.

 

Point is: This, my friend, is beta. It is not a final product. What we have here is something of great potential that could not stand on its own, but with an already devoted playerbase, could be something amazing. Patience, above all, is a virtue.

The fact that this is a beta certainly excuses some lack of polish, but I don't agree with employing it as a catch-all defense of anything DE puts into their game. As 'beta-testers' we can expect an accelerated content schedule coupled with a healthy dose of bugs, which is fine. As (ostensibly) paying customers whose interest is actively monetized, however, we have a certain obligation to judge content based on its current state as opposed to its assumed potential. We are, after all, paying for the content as it exists today.

 

I'm not against monetizing (devs need to eat too, after all) nor am I against the 'perpetual beta' Warframe is in, but I am against turning a blind eye to flaws in the game because "well, it's a beta".

 

But that is a huge different conversation that I really shouldn't be opening here.

 

My love of debate overcomes.

Edited October 30, 2014 by qujokun

[Abenoki]

This thread sounds familiar....

Oh wait.

 

i was in that thread lol

 

i ylyl every time i see this pic

Edited October 30, 2014 by Echoa

[MichaelSD]

Well, archwing is such a simple shooter (and buggy atm) that it is easier to have fun with another space shooter.

[Jinryusai]

Well, it was either Archwings or HUBs...

 

Not much of an improvement with HUBS.