De, Can We Please Graduate From Procedurally Generated Levels?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I do think there are merits to the procedural system. However, its ultimate viability I believe depends on how many different tile sets they add. If they end up with one for each planet it won't be enough in my opinion. There should be at least two unique tile sets, plus the ship or asteroid (or both) tiles on each one. Maybe some shorter planets like Jupiter and Earth can get away with only having one tile set (plus the ship tiles), but ones like Mercury or Eris or Ceres absolutely need more.

Edited October 29, 2014 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

 

i don't see that happening, i see active players that are repeating the same content, what variety there is helps to avoid burning out.

 

but you're expecting less variety to mean more replayability. it's physically impossible.

 

I'm expecting more focus to mean more fun.  It's completely possible.

 

and you all but ignored the counter suggestion, only barely recognized it's existence.

it's a much more practical thought to add flair to Missions(adding flair doesn't mean having it's own Tilesets, because that's the same thing as you wanting hardlocked level design, expect Missions to have some of their own Tiles, but still share the same set), rather than have... what, 238 Missions now(+ a few Archwing)? i don't have the game up atm so it's a guesstimate. so 238 maps that are all completely separate from each other.

 

I'm not sure where "I think that would be cool" is ignoring the suggestion.  Again: I understand it would be a massive backlog, but the sooner they start, they sooner they'll catch up, lol.  In all seriousness, more tiles is a necessity, but ultimately I think having individual maps should be the way to go.

 

 

Missions having more personality is a good goal, just don't expect to reach that goal by pulling linear game design from the past and stapling it onto Warframe.

 

you might have fond memories of a part of a Linear game and go back to it, but you're either reloading a Save or replaying an entire game to get to 'that part you thought was cool'. and you will eventually run out of ideas of how to make whatever part interesting, as since Warframe expects you to replay content, playing that same Mission 50 times doesn't help if the Mission is the same each time. 

 

frankly, i'd say that every game should Procedurally Generate your areas, it won't quite have those handcrafted laid out areas for certain parts of the plot, but it'll change things up more often, and i can't really say that's a bad thing by any means.

i think it comes down to memorization versus exploration and creativity. i'll always choose the second one.

 

I don't think "stapling [linear game design] onto Warframe" is a solution to anything.  That's over-simplifying my suggestion. Obviously a haphazard quick fix is not the answer.  I want levels to be made, but it should be a gradual process, if it happens at all.  I do think there is a place for procedural generated levels in Warframe.  I think the Tower, Derelict, and anything else in the Void should remain procedural generated.  

 

I feel like there's more than nostalgia pushing me to the end of Mega Man or Super Metroid.  The level design itself was designed to enthrall the player.  There's plenty of exploration and creativity to be found in a game like Super Metroid (Not Procedurally generated).  Planet Zebes and Spark Man's stage have not changed over the years, but millions of people still play those games to this day.

 

My idea has a lot of obvious problems, and my analogy has one obvious flaw: Metroid and Mega Man are based on one character with a distinct set of abilities.  Those levels are built around that character.  Warframe has, what, 18 distinct frames (not counting Primes)?  They each play to a different play style.  But if you could make levels that are focused on each Warframe's abilities, so that each level can be cleared in a dozen different ways.

 

By virtue of this being a suggestion, it is very sweeping, broad, and vague.   I feel like De has a lot of scope and ambition, and places like Europa and Saturn feel like placeholders until they can get more polished content in place.

 

But going back to your "happy medium" suggestion: we definitely need more tiles.  My biggest complaint is that I know I'm running tiles.  All I could do was sigh heavily seeing the same map with just stronger enemies when I got to Europa. If the Corpus had different ships around Europa, or being on the icy surface of that moon, I would have been thrilled.  Instead, just seeing that same ship tileset and the same baddies I've been fighting for the past two months just killed my passion for the game.  Not all of my passion, since I ran a few infested missions tonight and will probably play more later, but my heart just sank.  

 

Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.  Overall, this suggestion is probably just going to be ignored by De, since they have bigger fish to fry and procedural generation of the missions is one of their core gameplay mechanics.  I'll play it all the same until I'm well and truly burnt out, and I guess just see where the game goes from there.  Thanks for taking the time to respond though.

[vaugahn]

By virtue of this being a suggestion, it is very sweeping, broad, and vague.   I feel like De has a lot of scope and ambition, and places like Europa and Saturn feel like placeholders until they can get more polished content in place.

 

Just so you know, the eventual goal is to have a unique tileset for every planet. The Corpus and Grineer ship tilesets are currently acting as placeholders. 

[taiiat]

 I'll play it all the same until I'm well and truly burnt out, and I guess just see where the game goes from there.  Thanks for taking the time to respond though.

see, that's where the logic of this gets lost.

 

if you're getting bored of playing the same Procedural Mission hundreds of times (who doesn't? we all get bored of that from time to time), if every Mission had the same 'map' every single time, and you therefore did the same actions at the same time, i can't imagine how you feel that could be more fun.

you're doing even more of the same things over and over at the same points. if the repetition is burning out, i cannot fathom how adding more repetition is the solution.

 

having every Mission have it's own 'map' theoretically increases variety... except, that really only works if you play every Mission on the Solar Map once, and never again. but we know that isn't the way Warframe works. the more times you're expected to repeat the same 'Mission', the less practical static Levels makes sense, if you ask me. 

 

 

i feel like i might be repeating myself here. but i'm not sure. if i am... then nevermind.

[Innocent_Flower]

Yo. 

 

The problem isn't that the missions are randomly generated. 

 

The problem is that random generation isn't random enough. The rooms don't have any variation too them. 

 

 

Every mission handcrafted though? No way. It'd take time away from more important things (everything else)

Edited October 29, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Krion112]

Yeah, I think you'd burn out faster on the same map over and over again.

 

You bring up that you can go back and play Mega Man or Metroid a hundred times over, but those games aren't designed for the longevity that Warframe is trying to propose; those were designed for the short run of maybe a year or two, whereas I once caught Steve in a dev-stream saying something about planning things out for Warframe twenty years from now.

 

The Tile system just needs more variety, which is ever so slowly arriving. I agree with what some people were saying, that each location could take from its world's tile set and throw some of its own unique tiles in there. Ultimately though, it'd be worse for the game if they took the time to craft a specific map for each location, rather than just updating the tiles and tile sets over time.

[SolarDwagon]

I think there's two different issues going on here that should be separated out more fully.

One issue is the idea that a linear level that is designed to allow or focus on gameplay elements is actually more replayable than a procedural system that can make gameplay elements irrelevant and thus create a repetitive sequence, with the flipside of that idea being that a linear level is more repetitive.

I favour the latter viewpoint given the mechanics of Warframe. Super Metroid and other similar games have a very narrow power level. Sure, there's ways to artifically gimp yourself to create extra challenge, but really, you have access to a small variety of power, or even set power. So they can look at that power level and build for it. Now lets look at Warframe. There's me with my 5-forma Latron Prime, and there's a newbie with a rank 0 serration and a reload mod on his Mk-1 Braton. Especially on lower planets (Earth being the best example) you can even find both in literally the same game session-me because I need another stupid egg, and the newbie because he's doing what newbies do, or because he's my friend. There is simply no way you can cater to that with a linear level, so for me at least, it's even more repetitive because I'm doing exactly the same actions time after time, since there's no challenge.

Is this an insurmountable challenge for linear levels? Certainly not, but it requires other changes first.

 

The SECOND issue is repetitive tilesets, which is a long-term project of DE's. Compared to when I joined, I think we have at least double the available tilesets, and back in CB I think there was only one or two. For the most part, these tilesets feel unique, especially the newer ones, although some of the older sets could do with a do-over, especially to contrast Grineer asteroid and Grineer Galleon.

Long story short-they're getting there, give them time.

Also, Europa has just graduated into it's own tileset for PC players. Search up Cryotic Event screenshots if you can't find the tileset otherwise.

 

Actually, there's a third issue here, which is the whole Stealth 2.0/Freerunning issues from procedural tilesets. I think that one way to overcome this within a procedural framework is to reduce the size of tiles, but have tiles that can add together to form a single room, and redesign these so that it makes stealthing across the maps easier, especially if tied in with more advanced freerunning options. Also tile transitions need work for this (like at least gives us airvent windows that connect across tiles!)

 

Wall of text to answer the wall of text, but OP does have points, even if they're masked by some less than ideal tone.

Edited October 29, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Wall of text to answer the wall of text, but OP does have points, even if they're masked by some less than ideal tone.

Again: please excuse my "less than ideal tone."  I wasn't trying to be rude, I suppose I was more venting frustrations with playing 10 missions on sedna, and having each mission play the same, and then playing 10 missions on phobos with the same results.  Yes, Sedna and Phobos have different tilesets, and DE is adding more variety, especially with the invasions.  Going from the Grineer ship in a pod to the Corpus ship was really cool (even if it did plunge my framerate into the single digits on PS4, lol).  It's a new twist on the old tiles, but the problem is still there.

 

I concede that having static levels might not work for warframe, given the scope of the game, but I just feel like some of the levels don't make any sense as a whole when they're procedurally generated.

 

I will say this much, though: I needed a change of scenery, and I did a few missions on Jupiter last night, and I really enjoyed them.  I look forward to when all of the planets have their own unique tile set, and enough unique tiles to really make every level feel unique, instead of running the same few dozen tiles over and over. (sorry for spamming the word 'unique', lol)

[(PSN)BlacksmithUSA]

I would rather we just get some changes to the way the tiles are generated. Ships should have constraints so they will form recognizable ship designs. The rooms can be RNGed, but there should be clear decks, a bridge, engine room, cargo rooms, etc. Tiles like the Corpus base should have a definite inside/outside areas that are both open and useful for players, not just a linear path that is sometimes outside. Having a big complex with an easily understood layout can be accomplished with random riles, and the exterior should blend with it in transition tiles to form two useful play areas that DO NOT just form a linear path, but rather an open play area. This would also make enemy radar not a trash ability, because there would be more than one path an enemies could take besides from the clown-car-closet to the blade of your Tenno.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

This would also make enemy radar not a trash ability, because there would be more than one path an enemies could take besides from the clown-car-closet to the blade of your Tenno.

"Clown-car-closet to the blade of your Tenno."  You sir are a true blacksmith...of words!

[DSpite]

If anything, we should get MORE procedurally generated level stuff, not less.

 

I know the Borderlands maps better then my local street maps. If someone designs an illegal drug that makes you forget stuff, I'm hording a ton of it, just so I can re-watch all the old movies, replay all the old games ... you get the idea.

 

Unless you hand players a map editor ala Skyrim, I fail to see how you would keep missions interesting long term.

 

I don't really care about what the environment looks like anymore, I care about having a long list of varied things to DO on that environment.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

I don't really care about what the environment looks like anymore, I care about having a long list of varied things to DO on that environment.

 

Not to get wise, but isn't that a pretty short list so far? Shooting, jumping, running, and slicing, and powers that are a variation of one of those four things.

[DSpite]

Not to get wise, but isn't that a pretty short list so far? Shooting, jumping, running, and slicing, and powers that are a variation of one of those four things.

 

Err ... I meant like mission types, varied mission parameters, secondary objectives etc etc.

 

We treat the tiles mostly as a tight corridor with some furniture on the side, and tend to spend 90% of the time on 10% of the other maps, ie Defend the Pod. You can easily have a map with 3 Pods or 1 Pod and two other things to defend (but only the Pod is critical, say) but for every wave you keep more then just the Pod alive, you get slightly better drops.