Petition To Change "ninjas Play Free" To "knights Play Free"

[Captwinchester]

tenno are ninja assassin warriors with space powers not knights.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Who said ninjas didn`t wall-run? In games they can, maybe not in real life.

I have more primes that you even imagine and yes I do have cosmetics even if they aren`t too many. Not the cosmetics are important here. This thread is about the "knights/ninjas play free" not about the cosmetics. I didn`t refeer towards the cosmetics in my posts in this thread!!!

But you can compare a prime with an iron armour:

The only prime that it has a shiney skin due to his power is Rhino prime, the rest of primes have golden lines or golden parts of their body.

 

I was talking historical ninja. Fictional Ninja can do whatever they want just like fictional knights can also do whatever they want (wall-running included).

 

What do you mean 'more primes that you even imagine'? I have every prime frame except Excalibur Prime and have most of the prime weapons and unlike you I also have most of the cosmetics.

 

I can compare a prime frame with a knight. I have no idea why you're bringing up a picture of old suits of armor when Tenno are very clearly a sci-fi twist on whatever warrior they end up being labeled. Most of our cosmetics look like armor and most of our frames have bulky silhouettes. Hell, the poster child for this game is named EXCALIBUR.

 

tenno are ninja assassin warriors with space powers not knights.

 

No, Tenno are Mercenary-knights with magic/space powers with the one exception being the random gymnast known as Ash (he is wearing a unitard).

 

No

Just no

Someone plays too much rhino

Knights don't use guns

 

 

Neither did historical Ninja.

Edited December 10, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[RedEyedRaven]

Tenno are Tenno. Several of them certainly share similarities with (Hollywood-)ninjas and (Hollywood-)knights. 

 

"Tenno play free."

 

All that's needed really.

 

It'd be so easy if the word "ninja" wouldn't have the brand-recognition-factor (meaning everybody knows and associates this word) while "Tenno" wouldn't have to everyone who didn't play the game.

Edited December 10, 2014 by RedEyedRaven

[letir]

Neither did historical Ninja.

Huh???

 

They use everything, even farming tools.

[Morec0]

 

Neither did historical Ninja.

 

 

Incorrect! Ninjas once attempted to assassinate the Warlord Oda Nobunaga with firearms - it failed, but the fact that they did use guns is historically documented.

[GunDownGrace]

Incorrect! Ninjas once attempted to assassinate the Warlord Oda Nobunaga with firearms - it failed, but the fact that they did use guns is historically documented.

yep,i can confirm this is truth

Edited December 10, 2014 by GunDownGrace

[BloodCarnival]

GUNDAMS!!!!

[MisterUltimate]

Ninja didn't wall-run. Why wouldn't knights be capable of jumping? And they could definitely slide. If you don't think we have shiny armor, you either don't have a prime frame, don't have cosmetics, or both. Our silhouettes are much too bulky to be reminiscent of ninja.

If you are talking historical armored knights, they couldn't jump well because even tanned leather armor is very heavy, and knights in full plate had to be hoisted by slings and pullies to mount horses.

Fictional knights, sure, why not?

As for knights play free... nah.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Huh???

 

They use everything, even farming tools.

 

That is a terrible argument.

 

Incorrect! Ninjas once attempted to assassinate the Warlord Oda Nobunaga with firearms - it failed, but the fact that they did use guns is historically documented.

 

I looked it up, but couldn't find anything that looked trustworthy that supported your claim. Could you provide me with a good source?

 

Well then, if you want to get technical knights also used/use firearms.

 

The fact that they came into existence near the end (but not after) the main era of knights would also imply that they were used but it isn't anything definitive.

 

 

If you are talking historical armored knights, they couldn't jump well because even tanned leather armor is very heavy, and knights in full plate had to be hoisted by slings and pullies to mount horses.

Fictional knights, sure, why not?

As for knights play free... nah.

 

That is a common misconception. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm#weight_b

[Morec0]

That is a terrible argument.

 

 

I looked it up, but couldn't find anything that looked trustworthy that supported your claim. Could you provide me with a good source?

 

Well then, if you want to get technical knights also used/use firearms.

 

The fact that they came into existence near the end (but not after) the main era of knights would also imply that they were used but it isn't anything definitive.

 

 

 

That is a common misconception. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm#weight_b

 

Here's a link or two:

 

http://metropolis.co.jp/features/feature/men-and-women-in-black/

 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=fihud1_Tah8C&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=sugitani+zenjubo+oda+nobunaga&source=bl&ots=Phj6CuRaw2&sig=56ciQSGD1kCkfhCId4YNMEKgi0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5PyHVIeOD4KVNtukgfAI&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Sugitani&f=false (page 179)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

And while you ARE correct, also keep in mind that the job of a knight was to wage war and fight in open conflicts. Although we, as players, are very much disposed to this open-conflict style, we ALSO preform missions that are meant to be more stealth focused - assassinations, sabotages, raids, spy.

Ninjas did these, while also acting as mercenaries in the field of battle. Knights, while landowners with some political swag, typically did not.

 

And, again, there is the WHOLE seperation between what KIND of ninja DE is talking about - I see them as speaking about the Westernized, unstoppable-killing-machine version less than the historical kind. And, from a video game standpoint especially, those kinds of ninjas can be just about anything (from Strider, To Ryu, to Raidan).

Edited December 10, 2014 by Morec0

[Karela2]

Here's a link or two:

 

http://metropolis.co.jp/features/feature/men-and-women-in-black/

 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=fihud1_Tah8C&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=sugitani+zenjubo+oda+nobunaga&source=bl&ots=Phj6CuRaw2&sig=56ciQSGD1kCkfhCId4YNMEKgi0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5PyHVIeOD4KVNtukgfAI&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Sugitani&f=false (page 179)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

And while you ARE correct, also keep in mind that the job of a knight was to wage war and fight in open conflicts. Although we, as players, are very much disposed to this open-conflict style, we ALSO preform missions that are meant to be more stealth focused - assassinations, sabotages, raids, spy.

Ninjas did these, while also acting as mercenaries in the field of battle. Knights, while landowners with some political swag, typically did not.

 

And, again, there is the WHOLE seperation between what KIND of ninja DE is talking about - I see them as speaking about the Westernized, unstoppable-killing-machine version less than the historical kind. And, from a video game standpoint especially, those kinds of ninjas can be just about anything (from Strider, To Ryu, to Raidan).

This ^_^

Totally agree!!! Couldn`t say it better!!!

Edited December 10, 2014 by Karela2

[Karela2]

I was talking historical ninja. Fictional Ninja can do whatever they want just like historical knights can also do whatever they want (wall-running included).

 

What do you mean 'more primes that you even imagine'? I have every prime frame except Excalibur Prime and have most of the prime weapons and unlike you I also have most of the cosmetics.

 

I can compare a prime frame with a knight. I have no idea why you're bringing up a picture of old suits of armor when Tenno are very clearly a sci-fi twist on whatever warrior they end up being labeled. Most of our cosmetics look like armor and most of our frames have bulky silhouettes. Hell, the poster child for this game is named EXCALIBUR.

 

 

No, Tenno are Mercenary-knights with magic/space powers with the one exception being the random gymnast known as Ash (he is wearing a unitard).

 

 

 

Neither did historical Ninja.

I was said that I do have more primes that you imagine I would have (probablly you think from 0-1 or maybe 2).

Again, stop talking about cosmetics. This isn`t the thread about cosmetics. I don`t care how much cosmetics you have or you don`t.

Mercenary-knights with powers? Is that a new concept of game, you just imagine?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Karela2

[SquirmyBurrito]

Here's a link or two:

 

http://metropolis.co.jp/features/feature/men-and-women-in-black/

 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=fihud1_Tah8C&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179&dq=sugitani+zenjubo+oda+nobunaga&source=bl&ots=Phj6CuRaw2&sig=56ciQSGD1kCkfhCId4YNMEKgi0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5PyHVIeOD4KVNtukgfAI&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Sugitani&f=false (page 179)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

And while you ARE correct, also keep in mind that the job of a knight was to wage war and fight in open conflicts. Although we, as players, are very much disposed to this open-conflict style, we ALSO preform missions that are meant to be more stealth focused - assassinations, sabotages, raids, spy.

Ninjas did these, while also acting as mercenaries in the field of battle. Knights, while landowners with some political swag, typically did not.

 

And, again, there is the WHOLE seperation between what KIND of ninja DE is talking about - I see them as speaking about the Westernized, unstoppable-killing-machine version less than the historical kind. And, from a video game standpoint especially, those kinds of ninjas can be just about anything (from Strider, To Ryu, to Raidan).

 

Thanks a bunch for the links.

 

Only one of our missions has a stealth focus, and it doesn't even require that you remain stealthy.

 

I have already touched on how the argument shifts if we focus on the trope-ified version of Ninja and Knights.

 

I was said that I do have more primes that you imagine I would have (probablly you think from 0-1 or maybe 2).

Again, stop talking about cosmetics. This isn`t the thread about cosmetics. I don`t care how much cosmetics you have or you don`t.

Mercenary-knights with powers? Is that a new concept of game, you just imagine?

 

Are you making an assumption about an assumption I allegedly made regarding how many primes you own? Because if you are, just stop.

 

Cosmetics are part of Warframe, why shouldn't I bring them up?

 

Hardly.

[Kazzamo]

We're honestly more like... space Ninja/Ronin unless you want to count Lotus as the lord we're beholden to, but the mercenary aspect and seeming code of honor and no honor at the same time fits. We do whatever gets the job done like a ninja, including sneaking and killing from the shadows (if we feel like it, it's an option that is there for many mission types if you so desire) but at the same time yeah there is supposed to be some kinda code of honor, yadda yadda yadda, keep balance so on and so forth, we're supposed to be the good guys or something the end. Anyway isn't the tagline "Suit to kill." now?

[Morec0]

Only one of our missions has a stealth focus, and it doesn't even require that you remain stealthy.

 

I have already touched on how the argument shifts if we focus on the trope-ified version of Ninja and Knights.

 

It's not about the act of stealth, it's about the principle of the mission. Knight's didn't spy on enemies, knights didn't assassinate targets (there's a difference between "killed in battle" and assassinated), knight's most certainly were not responsible for attempting to deceive enemies. Stealth gameplay and the concept of a mission based around the theme of some kind of subterfuge may not be connected in this game, but the latter wins out against the former in terms of themeatic presentation.

 

The key difference is this: as Tenno, we focus on attacking small pockets of activity. Ships, asteroid, research facilities; we DON'T go into open fields of battle, lined up across from one another and charging to meet in head-on combat. Sure, we do engage vastly-more-massive forces, but as we've established ninjas had just as much a role in open-combat as they did stealth - and even so our knight friends did so on MUCH larger scales than we Tenno do.

 

Say what you will about the Warframes, the weapons, as Tenno our role in the system is FAR more ninja like than it is any kind of knight.

 

 

 Anyway isn't the tagline "Suit to kill." now?

 

If it is they need to proofread their things better; "Ninjas Play Free" is still showing up all over the place.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Morec0

[SquirmyBurrito]

It's not about the act of stealth, it's about the principle of the mission. Knight's didn't spy on enemies, knights didn't assassinate targets (there's a difference between "killed in battle" and assassinated), knight's most certainly were not responsible for attempting to deceive enemies. Stealth gameplay and the concept of a mission based around the theme of some kind of subterfuge may not be connected in this game, but the latter wins out against the former in terms of themeatic presentation.

 

The key difference is this: as Tenno, we focus on attacking small pockets of activity. Ships, asteroid, research facilities; we DON'T go into open fields of battle, lined up across from one another and charging to meet in head-on combat. Sure, we do engage vastly-more-massive forces, but as we've established ninjas had just as much a role in open-combat as they did stealth - and even so our knight friends did so on MUCH larger scales than we Tenno do.

 

Say what you will about the Warframes, the weapons, as Tenno our role in the system is FAR more ninja like than it is any kind of knight.

 

Can you prove any of that? Also, as times change so do tactics.

 

The specifics of the battlefield do not matter. Knights didn't fight in ships, asteroids, research facilities, etc because they did not exist. Our open fields of battle are those exact places you just listed. Our approach to combat has evolved from the 'two lines smashing into each other' style to the more modern way wars are fought. As was made obvious before, we aren't historical knights, we are a sci-fi twist on them. Just like how the Mass Effect classes were twists on the typical Mage, Rogue, Knight, etc archetypes. IMO, we're knights with rogue-ish elements mixed in, you may not agree with me on that.

 

As for our role, I do not think it fits either more than any generic warrior role would. We are soldiers who do as we are told. If you try to make your decision based purely on the role we play, you should not end up calling Tenno either Ninja or Knights as they don't fit either. At best we're the solar system's incredibly corrupt police.

[Morec0]

Can you prove any of that? Also, as times change so do tactics.

 

The specifics of the battlefield do not matter. Knights didn't fight in ships, asteroids, research facilities, etc because they did not exist. Our open fields of battle are those exact places you just listed. Our approach to combat has evolved from the 'two lines smashing into each other' style to the more modern way wars are fought. As was made obvious before, we aren't historical knights, we are a sci-fi twist on them. Just like how the Mass Effect classes were twists on the typical Mage, Rogue, Knight, etc archetypes. IMO, we're knights with rogue-ish elements mixed in, you may not agree with me on that.

 

As for our role, I do not think it fits either more than any generic warrior role would. We are soldiers who do as we are told. If you try to make your decision based purely on the role we play, you should not end up calling Tenno either Ninja or Knights as they don't fit either. At best we're the solar system's incredibly corrupt police.

 

So, if we're not HISTORICAL KNIGHTS, why can't we be not historical Ninjas?

 

You know, like we ARE. That is to say: ninjas, but not historical ones.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Morec0

[SquirmyBurrito]

So, if we're not HISTORICAL KNIGHTS, why can't we be not historical Ninjas?

 

You know, like we ARE. That is to say: ninjas, but not historical ones.

 

I never said we couldn't. Originally I approached this from a historical standpoint, but everyone kept whining about how we aren't talking about historical ninja/knights we're talking about fictional ninja/knights. So I thought we were moving the discussion to how tenno compare to fictional knights and ninja (which is a stupid argument as both can be whatever their writer wants them to be). That is also why I was looking to drop out of the conversation.

 

I can do the same thing. "You know, like we ARE. That is to say: knights, but not historical ones."

[Morec0]

I never said we couldn't. Originally I approached this from a historical standpoint, but everyone kept whining about how we aren't talking about historical ninja/knights we're talking about fictional ninja/knights. So I thought we were moving the discussion to how tenno compare to fictional knights and ninja (which is a stupid argument as both can be whatever their writer wants them to be). That is also why I was looking to drop out of the conversation.

 

I can do the same thing. "You know, like we ARE. That is to say: knights, but not historical ones."

 

Ah, but THEN here we come to the end of the argument.

 

DE has said we're Ninjas. The makers of the game have said we're space ninjas, are using that terminology, and THAT IS WHAT WE ARE.

 

Word of God trumps all.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Ah, but THEN here we come to the end of the argument.

 

DE has said we're Ninjas. The makers of the game have said we're space ninjas, are using that terminology, and THAT IS WHAT WE ARE.

 

Word of God trumps all.

 

And that is why this thread is a petition to change that label. The argument is what we resemble not what we are.

Edited December 10, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Morec0]

And that is why this thread is a petition to change that label. The argument is what we resemble not what we are.

 

Personally, and I mean this was all the respect I can:

 

That argument is complete moronic. If we ARE Ninjas, then WHY not market the game with that title? Why switch it if that is what we are?

 

Because you know what will happen then: "I came to this game expecting knights! Why are all these guys doing these kind of areobatics? Why don't these things look more like suits of armor?"

 

There is NO VALID REASON to change the marketing title.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Personally, and I mean this was all the respect I can:

 

That argument is complete moronic. If we ARE Ninjas, then WHY not market the game with that title? Why switch it if that is what we are?

 

Because you know what will happen then: "I came to this game expecting knights! Why are all these guys doing these kind of areobatics? Why don't these things look more like suits of armor?"

 

There is NO VALID REASON to change the marketing title.

 

We are space ninja purely because that is what DE decided to describe us as. If they started describing us as Space Knights, I do not understand why anyone would come to this game and make those complaints. Our frames look like futuristic suits of armor. And acrobatics are not something that Ninja have a monopoly on.

 

The argument is that we more closely resemble knights than we do ninja, and that DE should change their label.

[Morec0]

We are space ninja purely because that is what DE decided to describe us as. If they started describing us as Space Knights, I do not understand why anyone would come to this game and make those complaints. Our frames look like futuristic suits of armor. And acrobatics are not something that Ninja have a monopoly on.

 

The argument is that we more closely resemble knights than we do ninja, and that DE should change their label.

 

To me, they look less like futuristic suits of armor and more like bodysuits - the kind portrayed to be worn by secret agents and, as DE seems to agree, Ninjas.

 

You want futuristic suits of armor? Look at Master Chief, any space marine. THAT is armor. You can see the connected pieces, the detachments that are made of the individual bits to make the whole.

 

With the Warframe? Even in the more recent frames I find it difficult to see any strict detachments, it all seems to be one thing. Though you'll likely say "what about syandanas, or the armor pieces" in argument next, those bits are HARDLY the selling point of the game and HARDLY have any major impact. They don't even PROVIDE protection!

 

I fail to see the comparrison to knights, all things considered. I understand HOW people may reach this conclusion, but I, and DE both, disagree with it and will continue to call the Warframes by what they're supposed to be.

[SilentMobius]

And that is why this thread is a petition to change that label. The argument is what we resemble not what we are.

 

And that is why people are arguing that we more closely resemble ninjas than knights (Which I absolutely agree with). Effectively putting a "No" on the petition and hopefully explaining to others why the proposed change is a bad one.

 

Tenno simply do not resemble Knights, our activities are asymmetrical and surgical. Knights were effectively leader-tanks in open warfare, that bears no resemblance to the activities of the Tenno.

Edited December 10, 2014 by SilentMobius

[SquirmyBurrito]

To me, they look less like futuristic suits of armor and more like bodysuits - the kind portrayed to be worn by secret agents and, as DE seems to agree, Ninjas.

 

You want futuristic suits of armor? Look at Master Chief, any space marine. THAT is armor. You can see the connected pieces, the detachments that are made of the individual bits to make the whole.

 

With the Warframe? Even in the more recent frames I find it difficult to see any strict detachments, it all seems to be one thing. Though you'll likely say "what about syandanas, or the armor pieces" in argument next, those bits are HARDLY the selling point of the game and HARDLY have any major impact. They don't even PROVIDE protection!

 

I fail to see the comparrison to knights, all things considered. I understand HOW people may reach this conclusion, but I, and DE both, disagree with it and will continue to call the Warframes by what they're supposed to be.

 

Why would far future armor include weak points (areas where the armor attaches to other parts)? Wouldn't it make more sense for it (especially if it is some sort of bioarmor) for it to be as close to one piece as possible? If I had to assign them to a scale of modern to futuristic it would look like this:

 

Modern Day-->Master Chief-->Space Marines (WH40K)/Warframes (them being on the same level as they seem to embody divergent paths as far as futuristic armor goes). 

 

I guess I'm not the only one who attempts to preemptively address arguments. But no, I wouldn't make that argument for the reasons explained above. However, some of the cosmetics have actual lore behind them and therefore should be considered.

 

Also, DE seems to (at some point) have considered the Tenno to be knights as was illustrated in OP's picture

 

https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/sites/all/themes/warframebase/images/Interviews/009/FactionSummary.jpg

 

And that is why people are arguing that we more closely resemble ninjas than knights (Which I absolutely agree with). Effectively putting a "No" on the petition and hopefully explaining to others why the proposed change is a bad one.

 

Tenno simply do not resemble Knights, our activities are asymmetrical and surgical. Knights were effectively leader-tanks in open warfare, that bears no resemblance to the activities of the Tenno.

 

I disagree. 

 

How does 'asymmetrical and surgical' better describe Ninja than knights. And how does Surgical even remotely describe Tenno when most of our missions are huge massacres rather than carefully planned out plans. The closest to surgical that we come is Rescue, and even that isn't precise.