The Problem Isn't Really Viver...

[Ritchel]

[Azawarau]

To be fair

 

Our exp was wasted before so this offers some type of end gamish thing

 

Not against anything here but just pointing it out

Edited November 11, 2014 by Azawarau

[Phoenix86]

The issue with practically every game ever made:

 

http://www.gametheory.net/dictionary/StrictlyDominantStrategy.html

 

A strategy is strictly dominant if, regardless of what any other players do, the strategy earns a player a strictly higher payoff than any other. Hence, a strategy is strictly dominant if it is always strictly better than any other strategy, for any profile of other players' actions. If a player has a strictly dominant strategy, than he or she will always play it in equilibrium. Also, if one strategy is strictly dominant, than all others are dominated. For example, in the prisoner's dilemma, each player has a strictly dominant strategy.

 

Either a game adds features that are an intrinsic part of "simply playing the game", or they are added with specific systems that can be "grinded". Welcome to Syndicates, and Viver. If Viver was closed down, the next best node would be used, and so on.

 

There is no currently "fun" way to get Rep. The missions for Syndicates are the same missions as ever, have a limit per day, and generally make it harder to get a team for. Those factors limit the reasons for that system to be played, and people just shrug and go grind Viver.

 

^ this, no matter what

 

as i've said in other threads nerfing Viver will solve NOTHING because is a symptom, not the disease itself

Edited November 11, 2014 by Phoenix86

[babtong]

i wish gaining syndicate rep would be similar to payday2's overhauled exp system. repeat grinding the same map over and over again reduces the exp gain gradually and switching up maps adds a small multiplier each time and even stacks. people fond of viver could still grind it if they want to since they'd still get a bunch of rep just a bit less than ~20k each time, but it would be viable for other people with the multiplier who don't stick to one map to grind. mind you the multiplier in payday is increasing in small steps since it's stacking.

[Liminal]

i wish gaining syndicate rep would be similar to payday2's overhauled exp system. repeat grinding the same map over and over again reduces the exp gain gradually and switching up maps adds a small multiplier each time and even stacks. people fond of viver could still grind it if they want to since they'd still get a bunch of rep just a bit less than ~20k each time, but it would be viable for other people with the multiplier who don't stick to one map to grind. mind you the multiplier in payday is increasing in small steps since it's stacking.

The problem with PD2 is that the missions are also random (so you get punished for playing the same thing over and over but you can't pick what you want to play unless you buy it), thankfully we don't have that issue here.

On the other hand, PD2 has more replayability (YMMV) since I don't have any problem going back to Hard jobs with any loadout but I'd get bored really quickly by playing Venus in WF with my current equipment.

[matrixEXO]

Personally, I think the offering system should actually raise Syndicate XP rather than ranking up to the next rank. Each rank should occur naturally without needing to give an offering just to rank up.

[DSpite]

When I compare Warframe to many other games on my Steam list, I still come here because it still ticks more boxes on the "reason to play X instead of Y list", not by much maybe, but 1 or 2 boxes over say Borderlands or Payday 2 or Dungeon Defenders still makes it higher on the list. I still play other things, It's just more relaxing here.

 

I don't seriously think this game has as many hours of play as I have already put into it, it just "punishes" you a lot LESS then others, so I don't have to focus like I'm doing a math test. I've lost track in Borderlands on how many times the ALWAYS perfectly thrown axes or grenades took me out while scoping for a kill, just because I spotted 2 throwers and dodged, but there was actually 3, and they throw them from 2 kilometers away, too. That game also makes me throw away guns every 2 levels, it's novel for the first 5000 hours, then it's kind of annoying :)

 

I reckon people's expectations here are WAY too high. DE adds Syndicates and they are not perfect, and people yell the game is crap. Borderlands adds entire DLC's that are bland as they can be, and people shrug and move on.

 

I don't get it.

 

"It could be a lot better" I hear. I'm sure it could, but instead of people either skipping new content or not playing for a while, they go grind it non stop, to get mods that they themselves admit they won't use?

 

Is this all about "must unlock everything at all costs, even the bad stuff" type thinking?

 

I almost wish DE did make something that stated "if you go path X you will never get stuff from path Y" because that is what Syndicated should have been, instead, I already hear people having done one path and complaining how annoying it is to fill the whole back up and do the other paths.

 

It just seems a little insane after a while.

[Kruglov]

As much as I am enjoying the Viver catastrophe it does show a very clear problem with Syndicates.

 

And I agree wholeheartedly it should'nt be based off affinity.

 

In fact, DE should probably go and assign every planet/moon/system with hardcoded amounts of reputation you can earn.

Obviously harder levels would equal more rep. (survivals > captures for example)

Farming longer than is natural in a map would not affect it as there would only be a certain amount of rep gained per map.

 

However, on the alternate end make voids, derelicts, alerts, invasions, bosses, and the new daily missions give out far more reputation than the regular star system maps. Alerts and invasions should give particularly LARGE amounts of reputation as they are meant to be very important to the star system and at the moment players don't even engage in them unless the grineer/corpus rewards are a rare material. If its credits theres very few, sometimes no parties doing the invasions at all.

 

But if invasions all gave HEFTY amounts of reputation (like 800 or so per run) everyone would be rushing to do them. Then invasions go back to being the things everyone loves, and the grustag 3 and harvester go back to appearing all the time by accident instead of being goaded out by people trying to farm brakk and detron pieces.

 

Apply that same NEW invasion reputation prizes to clans taking over dark sectors from other clans and suddenly people will care about Dark Sectors again.

 

Kill several birds with 1 stone.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Kruglov

[Davoodoo]

Exploit is right word used to explain viver.

 

You dont need to be a game dev to see thats something is wrong, in that case abnormally high spawn rates, in that context its a bug and ppl are using that bug to gain advantage, thus its an exploit.

 

I dont agree though that you should ban anyone, syndicates are outright stupid with amount of grind they need, they offer really bad rewards while also being resource sink.

Sure viver should be fixed, but at the same time syndicates should also be.

[izzatuw]

Exploit is right word used to explain viver.

 

You dont need to be a game dev to see thats something is wrong, in that case abnormally high spawn rates, in that context its a bug and ppl are using that bug to gain advantage, thus its an exploit.

 

I dont agree though that you should ban anyone, syndicates are outright stupid with amount of grind they need, they offer really bad rewards while also being resource sink.

Sure viver should be fixed, but at the same time syndicates should also be.

Any proof where DE has stated that the spawn rates a bug? No right? DE knows about this issue but Rebecca's replies were not "The spawn rate at Viver is a bug" or anything like that right? No, they said it's being reviewed. There's no exploit here, exploiting is finding a bug and using it to his/her advantage. There is no bug here, this was how Viver was designed.

[Liminal]

Borderlands adds entire DLC's that are bland as they can be, and people shrug and move on.

I have to admit I agree there. I don't get how people welcome the terrible and un-fun scaling, bland and useless skills and poor variety of loot/weapons in BL2. And zero innovation from one game to the next.

 

Hyperbolists aside, we do "complain" a lot around here because at least someone seems to listen to us*. Try doing that in the Gearbox forums to see what it's like to feel your opinion is completely irrelevant :P

 

*also because we like WF. That's why we're still playing!

[Rapxtor]

Any proof where DE has stated that the spawn rates a bug? No right? DE knows about this issue but Rebecca's replies were not "The spawn rate at Viver is a bug" or anything like that right? No, they said it's being reviewed. There's no exploit here, exploiting is finding a bug and using it to his/her advantage. There is no bug here, this was how Viver was designed.

 

Using Momaw words:

 

"Well, Wiki says

"In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers"

 

I don't see how I'm using the word incorrectly.  You're manipulating a game system (spawning) in a way that was not intended by the game designers (to trivialize the time-cost of the reputation system).  I think it's self-evident that you're not SUPPOSED to be getting 5K reputation in five minutes using a specific strategy when an ordinary hour-long mission at the game's highest difficulty offers around 2K, and that if you were being honest with yourself, you would admit this. But, again, I'm not even mad about that. I don't care about Viver itself."

 

 

Its kind funny how people try always to find excuses for something they kown that isnt right nor it was intended in any way, but the best one was indeed teamwork and skill to play Viver using specific frames (Skill just like Exploit it have a diferent meaning for some players), even when you know the system is bad and isnt fair, using something to win a edge that cant be gained any other way on similar level mission, its pretty self explainatory. 

[Inez]

 I think it's self-evident that you're not SUPPOSED to be getting 5K reputation in five minutes using a specific strategy when an ordinary hour-long mission at the game's highest difficulty offers around 2K, and that if you were being honest with yourself, you would admit this.

 

 

If I found a way to get 1k rep per minute, I would indeed admit that I was exploiting.

[Mesyra]

the issue is that because mag is designed as a corpus killer, being based on magnetic damage, she is highly effective in corpus missions.

 

if you have a small map with a lot of guys spawning on it, it makes CC/Nuke abilities I.E. SP and MP extraordinarily useful. both SP and MP do a radial blast on activation/death of a target, making it chain to other near by entities, making them explode, making that chain continue, its like chemistry. 

 

if you keep using these abilities, you keep releasing energy, which means you need more, so having a frame that can restore that energy make this a non issue, continuing the Chain of death.

 

the issue is that the map is small and the enemies are fairly weak in the HP department. so taking a frame that removes shields and then a frame that blows the minuscule amount of HP right off of them, and giving them infinite energy make this OP. 

 

TL,DR: (if you are that lazy to read my small paragraph.) Small map + big boom boom + infinite energy + lots of baddies = exp out the bum = Rep out the bum

[__Kanade__]

Syndicates are supposed to be endgame, something requiring more skill or time put into the game to complete or get into.

Uh-huh.

 

Endgame is grinding xp over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

you so smart. iJelly.

Edited November 11, 2014 by __Kanade__

[sekushiiandee]

Uh-huh.

 

Endgame is grinding xp over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

you so smart. iJelly.

^ read the rest of his post x_x thats not what he meant

 

he is stating what DE views and what very few ppl view syndicate as...but he does not entirely agree with it

Edited November 11, 2014 by sekushiiandee

[Agua]

Agreed.

Syndicates were designed as longer-term goals, like reaching level 80 in Vindictus (which, after playing on a single character since open beta, I still have not done). Grinding your way up there relatively quickly is possible, but mind-numbingly tedious (and, in Vindictus' case, tends to yield fewer Skill Points).

The Vindictus devs, before they were replaced with empty-headed money-hungry baboons, designed the leveling system so that we could slowly work our way up there by simply enjoying the game. DE did this as well.

 

And how is that? As far as I see it, we are forced to play the game the same way since rank 0 up to rank 18. I´ve been to Viver once, and  got 2k rep, the same ammount I had gotten over 2 weeks of tedious repeatble boring content. I am really exited about Viver farming, since I am FINALLY being rewarded for my mods and rank. DE have failed on creating new engaging content and leveling rep is stupidly boring. I gotten around 3k since archwing was released. I should play over 2 years of the same content to get some of the mods of just ONE faction? I don't think so. We wanted some high end content and Viver is a poor replacement for it, but it is SOMETHING.

I am really happy that some of that repeatable farming has a shortcut, a shortcut that required to have over 4 million credit invested on mods. A way for more experienced player to FINALLY get some kind of reward. Do you think it is fun to level up a hundred crappy weapons doing the same missions over a hundred times? It is not. It is not fun to run 20 void keys and get only crappy useless drop. I ran over 30 T1S over months to get loki chasis and had to buy it for plat because I grew sick of doing the same thing over and over and over and over.... If players find a smart way of farming, then I don't see why it should be nerfed. I mean, every game has end game powerleveling. Just look at diablo 2 cow level, it was the start of power leveling and has been present on every RPG since.

Now, I'm not saying that Viver is right, but ever since I started playing on closed beta I have NEVER feel rewarded for playing smart or leveling crappy weapons until yesterday on Viver. High ranks do not give you ANY advantages. Extractors are just a loss of money IMO, since they cannot get rare resources, and in any case, only cells and neural sensors are truly rare. And cells are REALLY rare. I killed sargas like 10 times and after that i did 3 sup on saturn and got 0 cells...

I would not be againt Viver nerf, but sincerely, this new way of farming finally made me feel like playing the game is sort of rewarding.

[Neocyberman]

Uh-huh.

 

Endgame is grinding xp over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

you so smart. iJelly.

Its DE's idea of it, its what they have talked about quite a bit in reference to it and thats what upsets me when its just another layer of grind. Especially after it was shown in depth one stream after a statement was made saying that they didn't want to go the direction of just adding more grind.

[Garuger]

I dont care do whatever you want i maxed everything i wanted have fun farming for months

[MixterFox]

Making the system give you a flat 400 rep per mission for every 10 enemy levels. With endless ones give 100 rep per 10 levels at each reward. This will rewards players for playing against high level enemies as their rep gain will grow faster instead of just spamming low level enemies all day. Yes you can still speed run exterminations but that at least can't be done with a macro.

 

Under this system if it takes 5 mins to do an extermination on pluto you'll be able to gain 8k per hour allowing you to max after 30 hours of gameplay not the 120+ it currently takes doing this.

 

The best part about Viver was that brief period of time when players knew to go there but not the strategy so you ended up staying to round 12 and fought lvl 60+ It actually started to feel like an endgame. Having a reason for players to fight high level enemies in this game would be nice for once.

[DSpite]

I dont care do whatever you want i maxed everything i wanted have fun farming for months

 

Just want to point to what you just said as an example, because in many other games, this would be a very deep statement.

 

 

* In EvE Online, this could mean that a person might of found a shortcut to get a rare reusable Blueprint, and is now making a killing on the market over all other sellers and getting a month long trade advantage.

* In WoW you might have gotten special Raid gear and are now getting higher end things to sell on the market for gold.

* In a PvP survival game you might now have an entire house coated in steel, and no one can break in and steal your stuff anymore.

 

All people archive HERE is the equivalent of me figuring out the save game data of Borderlands 2 and giving myself a new gun.

 

You have found an easy way to get the end rewards without playing the content that was added specifically to allow those rewards to be reached in a timed fashion. The last boss I had used to give me Trackmania tracks he made to test out. Every so often I would find a cool place to flip myself across my map and get 30 second runs on 2 minute maps. I'd get the track back again to test with a LOT of extra bits added.

 

What happened here is like a Pigeon breaking into the food dispenser of a Skinner box. All you have done HERE is break the experiment. You have gained zero leverage because it's a coop game, you can't show it off to friends because it's a results of broken mechanics, and the rewards gained from it will benefit other people in your team more then they will you.

 

For those people who play specifically to break the game for testing, good work. I mean, we are testers, so you did exactly what you were supposed to do. That is actually the point, if we keep saying that we are in infinite development.

 

To all those people that now have 1 million REP and normally play games for fun? I'm not actually sure what you have archived here. Seriously, I don't.

You should of waited as long as was necessary for DE to make the new content fun to play and played it then.

[DemonHybrid]

why are people so interested in syndicates? i still dont understand. does it buff you or something permanently or...?

[Garuger]

Just want to point to what you just said as an example, because in many other games, this would be a very deep statement.

 

 

* In EvE Online, this could mean that a person might of found a shortcut to get a rare reusable Blueprint, and is now making a killing on the market over all other sellers and getting a month long trade advantage.

* In WoW you might have gotten special Raid gear and are now getting higher end things to sell on the market for gold.

* In a PvP survival game you might now have an entire house coated in steel, and no one can break in and steal your stuff anymore.

 

All people archive HERE is the equivalent of me figuring out the save game data of Borderlands 2 and giving myself a new gun.

 

You have found an easy way to get the end rewards without playing the content that was added specifically to allow those rewards to be reached in a timed fashion. The last boss I had used to give me Trackmania tracks he made to test out. Every so often I would find a cool place to flip myself across my map and get 30 second runs on 2 minute maps. I'd get the track back again to test with a LOT of extra bits added.

 

What happened here is like a Pigeon breaking into the food dispenser of a Skinner box. All you have done HERE is break the experiment. You have gained zero leverage because it's a coop game, you can't show it off to friends because it's a results of broken mechanics, and the rewards gained from it will benefit other people in your team more then they will you.

 

For those people who play specifically to break the game for testing, good work. I mean, we are testers, so you did exactly what you were supposed to do. That is actually the point, if we keep saying that we are in infinite development.

 

To all those people that now have 1 million REP and normally play games for fun? I'm not actually sure what you have archived here. Seriously, I don't.

You should of waited as long as was necessary for DE to make the new content fun to play and played it then.

I am a vet with over 2k hours placed to this game wich means i have played the game for a really long time .As you said synidcates are also meant for that .If syndicates were implimented when i joined it would be the same spot as now thus i neither broke or exploit anything i just gained my syndicate points retroactively . Along with most other vets because viver was only for vets . To conclude vets got what deserved and new players will get what will deserve on the future so balance has been achieved .

[SolarDwagon]

I feel like there was a way to reward the long-term players for Syndicates, which would have removed a lot of the incentive to grind for these players. Simply, when syndicates were created, go through their player profile and apply their XP retroactively to a syndicate of their choice. Then the only people grinding would be the profit-mongers, and most people would agree on any fixes that DE attempted-and some people have so much XP already that the market would have probably dropped rapidly anyway, far faster than it has.

Instead, you have people with everything in the game EXCEPT syndicates, so is it any wonder these people bend the game over their knee and spank it to get syndicate rep?

Yes, the current system isn't great for new players. But for ONCE, it's not actually a new player feature. Which DE didn't make very clear. It's a feature that is meant to tick away in the background while you play normally. If I was a new player starting today, by the time I got to where I was just before U15 I would have probably had more reputation than I have now, by a long way. I'd possibly even have enough to have "fixed" my rep with syndicates that hated me to pick up *every* currently available mod. And I'd go do something else, probably something more in line with DE's vision of gameplay than Viver.

At the end of the day, Viver is a problem that DE created for themselves, and throwing nerfbats at the map until it become unviable is the wrong way to do it.

And to those who say that playing Viver is somehow "bypassing content". We're playing in a manner to get rewards within the inherenet structure of the game. It's not equivalent to hacking save files at all. Like, seriously, how do you even get that. At worst, it's like hitting level 50 and farming a Borderlands boss until you get his legendary, except in this case it's because there's nothing past level 50 so you might as well farm... or stop playing the game-and the fact we'd rather farm Viver than stop playing the game should tell you about how much the people doing it actually like playing Warframe.

Edited November 12, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[Garuger]

I feel like there was a way to reward the long-term players for Syndicates, which would have removed a lot of the incentive to grind for these players. Simply, when syndicates were created, go through their player profile and apply their XP retroactively to a syndicate of their choice. Then the only people grinding would be the profit-mongers, and most people would agree on any fixes that DE attempted-and some people have so much XP already that the market would have probably dropped rapidly anyway, far faster than it has.

Instead, you have people with everything in the game EXCEPT syndicates, so is it any wonder these people bend the game over their knee and spank it to get syndicate rep?

Yes, the current system isn't great for new players. But for ONCE, it's not actually a new player feature. Which DE didn't make very clear. It's a feature that is meant to tick away in the background while you play normally. If I was a new player starting today, by the time I got to where I was just before U15 I would have probably had more reputation than I have now, by a long way. I'd possibly even have enough to have "fixed" my rep with syndicates that hated me to pick up *every* currently available mod. And I'd go do something else, probably something more in line with DE's vision of gameplay than Viver.

At the end of the day, Viver is a problem that DE created for themselves, and throwing nerfbats at the map until it become unviable is the wrong way to do it.

And to those who say that playing Viver is somehow "bypassing content". We're playing in a manner to get rewards within the inherenet structure of the game. It's not equivalent to hacking save files at all. Like, seriously, how do you even get that. At worst, it's like hitting level 50 and farming a Borderlands boss until you get his legendary, except in this case it's because there's nothing past level 50 so you might as well farm... or stop playing the game-and the fact we'd rather farm Viver than stop playing the game should tell you about how much the people doing it actually like playing Warframe.

Have a +1 from me , your post is awesome . However DE did not do that because it would take more time to code it etc and they wanted to rush U15 . However i believe that if they trully wanted we would not even have this conversation atm . Viver is excactly that points that belong to long time players but never got them because DE could not do that . Which were able to do that  but i guess it was too much of a hassle of them to bother with it and they jsut thought players would just deal with it

Edited November 12, 2014 by Garuger