Warframe - Punishing Players For Nothing.

[KirukaChan]

The fact it has a job to help DE avoid us stockpiling doesn't actually mean it isn't an inconvenience to us.

Yes, admittedly the stockpiling issue is a problem FOR DE/WARFRAME to survive with.

Why are WE the ones stuck with it as a 'feature'?

 

If all it took was a way 'around' a pointless problem for you to not see it anymore, perhaps some reconsideration.

Why do we even have that problem? Because DE needs to stop stockpiling.

 

WE have to put up with it.

You'll either not care or you'll hate it. Where is the part where we like it? Where does it serve to improve our experience?

(or at least not hinder it)

 

 

Very nice suggestion. Would you mind if I quote this on the first post?

 

Sorry for late response. Go for it.

[Azawarau]

I'm a bit tired of repeating it, so I'll copy-paste.

 

"Kubrow Stasis is the 'this is how you don't get punished' part. It's basically meant as yet another form of content delay

Though it does NOTHING to help the game. I can understand limiting to one kubrow active at any time.

I can understand additional stasis pod needing purchase. The punishment for not putting your kubrow away is pointless to all ends.

It has not served any productive function. (unless annoying and forcing rage-quits is somehow productive to the game)"

 

Someone mentioned it was a credit sink, though admittedly for DE to just add something that annoys us as it eats credits should be considered an inconvenience to us.

Its how you dont lose it

 

Your kubrow is a pet

 

Take care of it or it dies

[Romalic]

 While it is mildly, very mildly, annoying that argon decays, i can see the reason for it, they release something new, the dedicated players grind like a kubrow on its masters leg to get it and as a lot have been playing a while as i have we have literally a metric ton of resources stored up, argon cant be stockpiled, if there is a break between something new coming out you need to play a few missions, maybe 1 for some argon, is this unreasonable? not in any way

 

 Wanting to have everything now and not have to wait seems to be the flavor of the month atm, argon is a tiny, TINY setback in building something

[ndantony]

...

For the quit rate, it's nothing more than an assumption based of several cases. Though given all things since beta, this is a very likely reason, among the others.

...

You're making assumption and generalization here. You don't even know the "quit rate", nor does anyone of us know for that matter. We do have once in awhile some players, out of hundreds of thousands or million, making a big quitting announcement which is appearing more to be some sorts of grandiose delusional.

I do agree with your point though, Argon decay and Kubrow death are suck. Period.

But we do have solution for Kubrow death, which is stasis, and so I can't complain much. Other related aspects like recovery times, dna stabilizers, etc., are not "out of the ordinary sense". So all are fair and good.

For Argon decay, and the decay time process... I think it's just stupid and makes little "sense". I believe it was originally more of an accidental creation and it stucks there since, since that there has not been enough players complaining about it. I think we just need a better solution.

[Yazeth]

If we are talking about time, an hour is enough to get some Argon crystals and maintaining your Kubrow or putting it in stasis. I really don't see an issue unless you only play 1-2 hour per week, imo.

[fadeinlight]

There is only one item that requires 3 Argon, the rest are 2 or 1. You prepare ahead of time the gear you need so you only miss the Argon, then make a a couple of Void runs, get the Argon and build it.

 

I don't understand the problem.

 

The mechanic is just there so you can't stockpile it.

Actually, there are two items that use three Argon (the Nikana and Amprex), but you beat me to this point.  If you compare it to the other rare resources, you can see that DE has made it so that you can get the required Argon for any single thing in as little as one run, whereas the number of required rare resources in other blueprints are much higher.  For instance:  the Hind requires six Neurodes, Lanka and Opticor require 20 Gallium, the Kama requires 5 Neural Sensors, etc.

 

I'm a regular player, and I rarely have Argon when I need it because Argon isn't required to make anything that you find in the Void (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Argon_Crystal).  That means that I'm probably farming elsewhere to get what I'm after, and most likely my Argon has degraded in that time.

 

As far as the Kubrows are concerned, I agree with the auto-stasis idea but I think the penalty for bringing it back should be more severe--maybe 100-250k credits and a full day restoration period, or 20-40 plat.  People put a lot of work into their kubrows, and sometimes real life issues come up--a death in the family, someone gets thrown in jail, car accidents...for people dealing with that sort of thing, they shouldn't have to come back to the game to find that their pet died and was shot into space.  I don't see that creating goodwill towards the game at all.

[Janzer]

How about the people limited to 1-2 hours every other day?

I will agree that when I was playing with more time on my hands, it was definitely not a big deal. That's the part that bothers me most.

It's only punishing casuals. Regulars don't really feel it.

 

Initially I thought that the rush recovery for 10 plat was a terrible move on DE's part. But what I do is this: Either put dog in stasis or just buy the health pack of 6 for 75k credits and feed it once in awhile if I'm going to leave it in the ship alone.

 

Each pack gives 40% health. Health degrades at a 10% per 24 hour period, so about 10 days of no "feeding" and it dies, I'm guessing on the death part that it's on the 10th day, as I've never had that happen.

 

If I play one weekend and can't get back to play until the next weekend, that's 7 days, or 70% of the dogs life that is gone. One DNA stabilizer will bring it back to recovered health, giving 40% per stabilizer.

 

Soooo....log in once very seven days or so to feed your dog if you're going to leave him out. Or, if you know you're going to be away for awhile, put him in the freezer.

 

The only problem I can see is for those that do not have a minimum of 3 hours to wait for a Kubrow to come out of stasis, but want to play immediately with the dog. Also, for those like want to switch dogs in one night because of a mission type or play style.

 

- I dislike the recovery time of 3 hours when I just want to switch dogs. I really do. That is the part that is unfun to me. Having to make a decision to pay 10 plat just to switch play styles with a dog.

 

If it were at least a credits penalty, a high amount, at least then I could switch my dog even if I'm being penalized for wanting to play differently. Some missions I want stealth, others I want Barky McBark Masters to howl away the baddies from the pod.

 

- I dislike not being able to see the stats or type of dog that I have in stasis. YES I KNOW that there is a little icon of which type of dog it is, but why can't I see full stats? I mean, if they're in the freezer where's my sheet of info with a preview of the dog color, type and stats (shield, health)?

 

I guess I'm too casual to care about remembering my Kubrow info, and I'd like to know what the max health and shields I have on my dog are just by hovering over the ones in stasis, or something. But more than likely, this just wasn't something thought of. So I hope maybe they could put that in as an extra.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Janzer

[fatpig84]

1) Argon crystals are not that hard to come by. 

Also you don't need to hoard those crystals (aka doing voids daily to refresh their duration).

Go find them when you need em.

 

I gotten 5 out of T1 defense and gotten 6 the other day because I was doing T2 MDs and T3 MDs for Bo Prime BP and Scindo Blade respectively.

 

 

2) Doge death ?

Put him in a freezer.

But DE needs to cut down the awakening time.

[Taranis49]

1) Argon crystals are not that hard to come by. 

Also you don't need to hoard those crystals (aka doing voids daily to refresh their duration).

Go find them when you need em.

 

I gotten 5 out of T1 defense and gotten 6 the other day because I was doing T2 MDs and T3 MDs for Bo Prime BP and Scindo Blade respectively.

 

 

2) Doge death ?

Put him in a freezer.

But DE needs to cut down the awakening time.

 

1.) RNG doesn't treat everyone equally - and everyone should know it by now. I've had times where I've done half a dozen 40 min survivals/30 wave defenses and MD's only to end up with one. Get my luck with Argon without the oodles of free time to go with it? You be boned.

 

2.) As I've noted elsewhere when this topic comes up, things beyond player control happen, lengthy power outages (wasn't that long ago my city had a several week outage), computer failure, etc. I've yet to hear a convincing excuse as to why emergency auto-stasis shouldn't be an option.

[Guest]

this might not seem relevant to the conversation, but (actually is)...

 

How long does it normally take to clear 10 waves of T1D? and 20 waves?

 

With a catalyzed/formaed team? On average?

Edited December 2, 2014 by Guest

[letir]

For the quit rate, it's nothing more than an assumption based of several cases. Though given all things since beta, this is a very likely reason, among the others.

This game have enough problems. This isn't the main reason.

 

Time-based resource is irritating, but farmable. If you don't trying to rush all argon-based BP at once. Most of recipes need ~2 crystals, which can be farmed in 1 defence/survival run.

 

Pet simulator can be frustrating, but "punishing"? If someone don't like timer, he can just ignore all kubrow stuff. Just like i do.

[Guest]

Time-based resource is irritating, but farmable. If you don't trying to rush all argon-based BP at once. Most of recipes need ~2 crystals, which can be farmed in 1 defence/survival run.

 

Pet simulator can be frustrating, but "punishing"? If someone don't like timer, he can just ignore all kubrow stuff. Just like i do.

yeah, ninety percent of the time, i usually end up with one argon by the end of 10 waves (2 with nekros and even sometimes, but not often, 3)

as for the pet simulator, it's like tamagotchi . if you don't have the time, don't do the... prime (you know since warframes have primes... "it's a play don't do the crime if you can't do the time"... i hate my life)

Edited December 2, 2014 by Guest

[StinkyPygmy]

It is because Kubrow death is considered a feature.

"Take care of it or it dies, regardless."

This is then left almost entirely to the player with only the bare minimum to explain that it can die.

No prevention if one fails to notice.

 

While I agree it is still one's fault for having a stupid kubrow without knowing how in the first place, I can't see this as a good 'feature'.

It has done NOTHING but inconvenience us for the sake of being a feature.

They could have even made it more fun like making the Kubrow less responsive in combat at 0% and take a long time/lot to recover/will not enter stasis while in this mode.

 

Whether you take this from me as saying DE has no imagination or that they're not fussy about how they resolve their own problems, this IS a pointless inconvenience. (I don't use kubrows anymore, though I've yet to have one die)

 

.@edit ; To the argon part...

You know at this point what you're doing is making excuses for the inconvenience, right?

I could make the same type of excuses for purging weak people. The only difference is ethical viewpoints and morality.

The fact that it isn't entirely unbearable doesn't actually mean that it isn't an annoying inconvenience that has convinced many players to just quit altogether. (as well as having no effect on everyone who doesn't care)

 

No company ever gives us the numbers to 'how many people have (re-)quit/(re-)joined during a period of a particular update' for good reason.

It's demoralizing to look at most of the time, even taking out the expected quit/join rates for any game.

 

A problem is a problem. Just because there's ways around it doesn't make it any more of a 'feature' than it was.

A game has a glitch that has no productive value, though it isn't something we can't get around easily.

Is that a feature?

Like I said, the argon point I actually get despite the fact it doesn't bother me particularly. I'm not making excuses to defend it, I'm just saying that I find it kind of an overraction to quit over a bit of decay for one resource. Not that its the only trivial thing people have lost it over. It serves a purpose, which is to slow player progress a tiny bit, so people can't stockpile it and burn through content that requires it. Although it really only means building it an hour or so later instead of as soon as the patch is done downloading.

 

I don't think molarity quite comes into it. There isn't anything immoral about it. Questionable maybe, but not immoral.

You could remove the decay and throw a limit on how much argon a player could have at a time along with some suitable lore explanation as to why, but you can bet your space ninja butt people would still complain just as loudly despite the fact it would allow them to build the one or two new weapons instantly (the limit might be around 3 or 4 since nothing needs more then three argon). It would be a vast improvement and it would still be hated, because then the playerbase would have to go farm if they want to build something else argon related.

 

On Kubrows: Ok, there isn't enough explanation that the kubrow can die I agree. I'm not saying permadeath should stay, I'd be fine with some sort of stat/effectiveness decrease or forced stasis till you stabilize it like someone else suggested, but I have no sympathy for players that have had a kubrow die on them as all the tools are there to prevent that. Personally it doesn't bother me at all. I've thrown my dog in the freezer plenty of times when I know I'm gonna be away for a while or not use it much.

 

I will say though that a lot of grief could be avoided if DE made sure suitable info was shoved in players faces when they introduce a new feature. A lot of new players have no idea argon decays because they don't go to the components screen in the foundry (I do to see if I'm running low on something) and I see bug reports about missing argon on the forums a lot because its not explained.

Edited December 3, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[vomder]

These 2 things are nothing more than annoyance mechanics and no real purpose otherwise. And should never have been part of the game to begin with. Removing them would be an immediate improvement to the game.

[BlueberryKing]

Kubrows die in 20 days time. Where you appear to be complaining that they can die at all, I personally don't like that it takes so long for my Kubrows to die... I have let 1 Kubrow die so far, because it was a type I already had, and I don't have enough Platinum to buy more Stasis pods. I am also a cheap skate, so don't want to waste 25k Credits to jettison it off before it dies.

 

For players who actually like the Kubrow they have active, though, then yeah, I can at least partially see how it is a problem. I mean, it is stil TWENTY DAYS it takes for a Kubrow to die, but I can see there being some circumstances that would keep you from logging on for that period of time. A hurricane, or massive power outage or something, like someone earlier said. For the OP's problem of being able to only play for a few hours every other day or so... I will repeat this TWENTY DAYS BEFORE YOUR KUBROW DIES. It isn't that hard to get 75k Credits to keep it from dying with that long to go...

 

As for Argon... I can also see how that can be annoying. I don't really have luck in gathering it either, and do not get too many Keys on my own. At least it is only the 1 resource that decays, though. Would be worse if more resources decayed.

[(PSN)Pharen]

Edit : For the sake of people who only see it from the point of view of people who have time to play the game ;

The problem(s) below are mostly for casual players.

-snip-

People WANT to take breaks and come back. Why punish us for that?

I don't have a problem with Argon crystal decay mainly because they're easy to get, and nothing requires alot of them,  but kubrow deaths really annoy me because it can happen if you have interruptions in your Internet connection (if your net goes down for a couple of days, you come back to a dead kubrow). There needs to be a better solution to kubrows. Right now sentinels are the only choice.

[Yazeth]

Oh yeah, if you want to see how Warframe had progressed, check this: http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=230410&from=1395903600000&to=1417507200000 (From PC Anniversary to Present)

 

Note: This is only for Steam. It does not count the other players who play Warframe w/o it.

[Azawarau]

I don't have a problem with Argon crystal decay mainly because they're easy to get, and nothing requires alot of them,  but kubrow deaths really annoy me because it can happen if you have interruptions in your Internet connection (if your net goes down for a couple of days, you come back to a dead kubrow). There needs to be a better solution to kubrows. Right now sentinels are the only choice.

You can contact support for that

[EctoSage]

As someone who isn't really a casual, and has more than 1000 hours in play time... I also despise Argon crystals. I love to binge farm for mats, or at least just know that running random missions will help my stockpiles. Argon throws all of that out the window, if I decide to spend 12 hours one day farming for a special part from the void, it doesn't matter how much Argon I happen to get while doing so, because by the time I need that Argon, days or weeks down the line when something new is added, it will have expired... at this point I have to once again venture into the void, without any goal at all, except to get an annoyingly difficult to obtain resource. 

If it was harder to get than it already is, but I could keep it indefinitely, then I would be fine, as it is, with RNG never being on my side, it can take anywhere from 20-45 minutes to get a single Argon, upon which point, most days, I no longer want to play. It should also be noted that I am a sparatic player, some days I binge as I said, other days, I will play only twenty, or thirty minutes, or not return to the game at all. It's just such an annoyance to log onto the game when I hear that something new has been added, and instead of instantly starting it, and coming back 12 hours later, or just the next day, I have to go farm bloody argon. 

 

Currently Argon is my #1 dislike with this game.

[Azawarau]

I feel like alot of "Casual players" dont realize how relatively few .."Hard core"? things are in game

 

Things to keep us on our toes

[Orbister]

I feel like alot of "Casual players" dont realize how relatively few .."Hard core"? things are in game

 

Things to keep us on our toes

it doesn't matter if you are more hardcore than others if others are casuals, the thing is that many design decisions are based around the idea of forcing people to log in, i think any game should be enough to keep people in because it's fun, because people want to play it, not because the game itself has tricks to force you to play, i play almost everyday, i don't mind Argon at all, but i do mind that design decisions are based around this idea: "hey how can we force people to log in everyday" i say, just make a good game... people will play it.

[Makya]

If they make argon not decay, wouldn't DE just make up a new resource every other update to make people have something to do before they get the new toys?(Aka.. something people complain about: not having something to do)

[letir]

yeah, ninety percent of the time, i usually end up with one argon by the end of 10 waves (2 with nekros and even sometimes, but not often, 3)

Defence T3, solo, 25 waves - 6 crystals without Nekros. Try harder.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I can understand OP to some degree. If I had an accident and couldn't login for a month and my kubrow with multiple forma is gone by the time I get out of the hospital, it's indeed some not needed harshness. However I'm sure support could help in those special cases.

 

I'd rather see an emergency stasis to get the little thing save out of it for some plat.

I mean, RL is full of surprises and warframe is just a game to make us happy, but in most cases, it's not that hard to deal with it.

 

The recoverytime rather bugs me for another reason. I cannot switch Kubrows for specific missions without playing platinum. That's it.

 

Thinking long-term, argon crystals delays content for maybe half a day or just

30min and thus doing a bad job at delaying content, so players don't just build

something right away. So in the end OP is right in my opinion. Warframe punishes casuals that way.

 

 

 

 

 

However, if that's the only gripe, than warframe must be a shiny place otherwise.

Edited December 4, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Azawarau]

it doesn't matter if you are more hardcore than others if others are casuals, the thing is that many design decisions are based around the idea of forcing people to log in, i think any game should be enough to keep people in because it's fun, because people want to play it, not because the game itself has tricks to force you to play, i play almost everyday, i don't mind Argon at all, but i do mind that design decisions are based around this idea: "hey how can we force people to log in everyday" i say, just make a good game... people will play it.

You arent forced to do anything

 

For kubrows you have stasis

 

For argon most items dont take more than a few and keys are more than bountiful in recruit if not on your character

 

The amount of everlasting content that gets ignored for arguments like these however...well you know already

 

You can log in once a week and keep your kubrow alive without stasis

 

You can do 2 maybe 3 void missions and have a supply for 20 days to keep it alive

 

Its not nearly as bad as youre making it out to be