[Collection] Glaive Debut Discussion Breakdown Thread

[ADDpillz]

lol it doesnt matter, 

 

in two weeks another weapon will be released and the glaive will be an afterthought

Edited April 27, 2013 by ADDpillz

[nullCassielle]

Debut was good but poorly executed (can count me as neutral).

From a financial standpoint, a great move from DE. Create a while weapon the community beg for, hype it up, make it silly rare or plat only. Many people have purchased the glaive already so DE have made money, good for them!

But I feel that the release could have been executed in a way that wouldn't alienate those who don't want to pay, ie the people who complain about potatoes etc. In future perhaps when releasing a me highly anticipated weapon have the Banshee approach. Have it as a small chance to be achieved in a given planet/system but not on the plat market. You don't see people complaining about Banshee and we can all agree she is hard to get.

 

A point you got wrong and two important things to keep in mind.

 

First off, as I've discussed before, there was no "hyping" from DE. That was player-driven hype and they couldn't have prevented it except by closing themselves off to the community altogether.

 

Secondly, I really need your opinion pared down to the essentials. Take the "you" out of it, take the "developer" out of it, take the "other players" out of it. Right now when I do that to this argument it feels like it comes down to "You did a good thing, but it was also bad" which gives them no infformation at all. Read the ones that have been moved to the OP to get a feel for what I mean here.

 

Lastly, I'm trying to avoid solutions -- they've got LOADS of those from the community already I promise you, and they're better equipped to come up with a good solution than the community is. Best to leave that to them. So the whole Banshee thing of your post is best left off, because it presents a solution. If you want to hear my reasoning on this, as I said to CaligoIllioneus -- PM me. I want to keep that kind of thing out of this topic.

[Spinner187]

Wasn't the Paris released the same way as the glavie? No BP in market and could on get it via (?) Alerts or Platinum?

Edited April 27, 2013 by Spinner187

[nullCassielle]

lol it doesnt matter, 

 

in two weeks another weapon will be released and the glaive will be an afterthought

This isn't about two weeks from now, this is about what DE should be considering on Monday morning.

 

 

Wasn't the Paris released the same way as the glavie? No BP in market and could on get it via (?) Alerts or Platinum?

 

I am looking for fully broken down arguments. If you could present your case in more detail, I'd be happy to move it to the OP.

 

It was a bad debut, in my honest opinion. Mostly because of the community uproar, and partly because I can't get the BP right when I woke up, and play with it tomorrow.

 

Blame it on the hype, but I just wished we were informed that it would only be Alert exclusive (outside of plat).

 

I do hope that glaive alerts aren't as rare as other alerts are, as I haven't even gotten my Banshee a Reverb helmet yet, and Excalibur folks have pointed out how there has only been an Avalon alert only once. Perhaps a weekly 'Glaive Hour'?

 

And no, I do not feel entitled to anything. I just know for a fact that I have rotten chances with lucky draws and such.

 

Appears you agree with CaligoIllioneus and Quetzhal. I'll put your name with them. If you have any problems with their arguments, PM me.

[Spinner187]

 

I am looking for fully broken down arguments. If you could present your case in more detail, I'd be happy to move it to the OP.

 

Sorry,I wasn't trying to debate. I was just asking a question.(or looking for confirmation of the Paris vs Glavie release)

Edited April 27, 2013 by Spinner187

[nullCassielle]

Sorry,I wasn't trying to debate. I was just asking a question.(or looking for confirmation of the Paris vs Glavie release)

 

A better place for that would be in the "No Glaive BP?" topic in general discussion. It began quite heated but people have slowly calmed down and may be able to answer you better than I can.

[Shion963]

Appears you agree with CaligoIllioneus and Quetzhal. I'll put your name with them. If you have any problems with their arguments, PM me.

 

It looks about right.

 

And thank you for creating a thread where we could document our views in a moderated way. I think DE'd appreciate the more structured and rational feedback.

[CaligoIllioneus]

A point you got wrong and two important things to keep in mind.

 

First off, as I've discussed before, there was no "hyping" from DE. That was player-driven hype and they couldn't have prevented it except by closing themselves off to the community altogether.

 

-some text-

 

Lastly, I'm trying to avoid solutions -- they've got LOADS of those from the community already I promise you, and they're better equipped to come up with a good solution than the community is. Best to leave that to them. So the whole Banshee thing of your post is best left off, because it presents a solution. If you want to hear my reasoning on this, as I said to CaligoIllioneus -- PM me. I want to keep that kind of thing out of this topic.

 

I don't think this is a sound argument. If DE "started" the hype or not is an afterthought. There was a lot of hype, and DE was fully aware of this. To cite an example of many, Rebecca did see how excited people were about this item in the Livestream chat, and devs read the forums, and there were many threads about the Glaive, so the team was aware of the community's views of the item.

 

So I don't think "they didn't start it" is a valuable argument. Does it really mater? Most hyping done in games is done by the community, and only fuelled by the devs.

 

Also a comparison with Banshee is not a solution, it's an example of how another item is not avaiable in the market while being there for platinum, yet people do not complain about it. It's actually a great reasoning that shows that the problem here aren't the instant gratification masses, but how this particular item was implemented.

 

Please include the Banshee part of TunaMayo's post because it's actually very important and useful for the devs.

Edited April 27, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[nullCassielle]

I don't think this is a sound argument. If DE "started" the hype or not is an afterthought. There was a lot of hype, and DE was fully aware of this. To cite an example of many, Rebecca did see how excited people were about this item in the Livestream chat, and devs read the forums, and there were many threads about the Glaive, so the team was aware of the community's views of the item.

 

So I don't think "they didn't start it" is a valuable argument. Does it really mater? Most hyping done in games is done by the community, and only fuelled by the devs.

 

Also a comparison with Banshee is not a solution, it's an example of how another item is not avaiable in the market while being there for platinum, yet people do not complain about it. It's actually a great reasoning that shows that the problem here aren't the instant gratification masses, but how this particular item was implemented.

 

Please include the Banshee part of TunaMayo's post because it's actually very important and useful for the devs.

 

You might have read through his post overly quickly. He was suggesting future items be done that way -- which IS a solution.

 

Used as a comparison only, it would be acceptable, but I don't feel comfortable completely rewriting a post I can't find the proper core of. I'll wait for him to come in and respond to my comments.

 

The hype.. you are correct on (even if what you say about the hype is possibly wrong, trying to make him conform to my own speculation is underhanded), and I feel like a bit of a jerk. I'll blame early-morning sleepiness.

[Tyrian3k]

Debut is good - Tyrian3k

 

I think it was good that they made a weapon that is special into an alert reward.

Right now there is barely even a single really good weapon obtainable in the alerts and adding the Glaive to the pool is the first step to change that (the second is to make single target melee weapons a proper alternative to multi target weapons).

 

It may seem unfair, that it is available for plat, but the Glaive is unique as a weapon, not stronger than other weapons. I can see why DE would want to take the opportunity, since it was obvious that many people would buy it, even if it costs platinum.

 

I do think that the weapons, which are rewards for ?-alerts should be available in the market after some time to make it easier to obtain for people who didn't manage to get it from alert all the time and to limit the amount of different possible rewards in an alert.

 

 

I seriously hope that there won't be this much commotion whenever DE adds a new weapon to the ?-alert loot.

Announcing it as a ?-alert reward will certainly help that cause.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Tyrian3k

[EthicsViolation]

Debut is good, but could be better:

 

This was a great move for DE: a gorgeous weapon, with fresh animations and sounds, encouraging a new way to address mobs. They were absolutely correct to put it on the market for purchase via platinum.

 

If they want to make blueprints available: 

 

*  Adding blueprints to the alert system is a mistake. All this does is encourage use of the twitter stream to wait for the right alert, making its aquisition a matter of dumb luck and good timing. There's no sense of accomplishment in being near the computer in time to get the blueprint via a three-minute, very easy alert mission.

 

Instead they might consider:

 

* Adding the blueprints as the possible reward of a 15+ round of endless defense.

* Adding the blueprints as the possible reward following one of the more grueling boss fights.

 

There's still an element of luck, meaning that the weapon remains rare and retains its sense of exclusiveness.

But there's also a sense of accomplishment attached to earning the weapon as a reward. 

[nullCassielle]

Debut is good - Tyrian3k

 

I think it was good that they made a weapon that is special into an alert reward.

Right now there is barely even a single really good weapon obtainable in the alerts and adding the Glaive to the pool is the first step to change that (the second is to make single target melee weapons a proper alternative to multi target weapons).

 

It may seem unfair, that it is available for plat, but the Glaive is unique as a weapon, not stronger than other weapons. I can see why DE would want to take the opportunity, since it was obvious that many people would buy it, even if it costs platinum.

 

I do think that the weapons, which are rewards for ?-alerts should be available in the market after some time to make it easier to obtain for people who didn't manage to get it from alert all the time and to limit the amount of different possible rewards in an alert.

 

 

I seriously hope that there won't be this much commotion whenever DE adds a new weapon to the ?-alert loot.

Announcing it as a ?-alert reward will certainly help that cause.

 

As I've stated to others multiple times, this is too big and not broken down enough. Let's try this:

 

There are not enough good weapons available as alert rewards. The glaive is a new and interesting weapon. THe glaive needed to be an alert reward. The glaive was highly anticipated. Player demand had to be satisfied immediately. Platinum purchases are a way to satisfy player demand. Platinum purchases are a source of income. The glaive needed to be available through platinum purchase.

 

combined with Fornicate's addendum.

 

Is this good?

[nullCassielle]

Debut is good, but could be better:

 

This was a great move for DE: a gorgeous weapon, with fresh animations and sounds, encouraging a new way to address mobs. They were absolutely correct to put it on the market for purchase via platinum.

 

If they want to make blueprints available: 

 

*  Adding blueprints to the alert system is a mistake. All this does is encourage use of the twitter stream to wait for the right alert, making its aquisition a matter of dumb luck and good timing. There's no sense of accomplishment in being near the computer in time to get the blueprint via a three-minute, very easy alert mission.

 

Instead they might consider:

 

* Adding the blueprints as the possible reward of a 15+ round of endless defense.

* Adding the blueprints as the possible reward following one of the more grueling boss fights.

 

There's still an element of luck, meaning that the weapon remains rare and retains its sense of exclusiveness.

But there's also a sense of accomplishment attached to earning the weapon as a reward. 

 

The post here appears to be mostly solution and very little viewpoint. As previously stated, I'm trying to keep the solutions for the developers and save this topic for the viewpoints themselves. Can you rewrite this with a focus on your view of the debut itself?

[KingTaro]

What I said in the other topic goes well with the statement by Quetzhal, CaligoIllioneus, Story4, Shion963.

I think that a new class of weapon doesn't belong in the Alert system.

But in case you want to bring a change to that and make it obtainable through the alerts, then it shouldn't be in the market at all, if you ask me.

 

 

There are already weapons that can only be acquired through the Alerts, but those are basically variations to the existing kinds of weapons.

So I think that a weapon with a totally new mechanic shouldn't be an Alert reward.

 

What I really like about the Alert weapons is not the way they work, but the way they look. So to me, the alert weapons are more like "Collector-Weapons".

 

I'd say add the Glaive BP to the shop and later on, you can release more Glaive-like weapons as the Alert reward.

But in case you want it to be an Alert reward, then it shouldn't be purchasable at all, in my opinion.

[Tyrian3k]

As I've stated to others multiple times, this is too big and not broken down enough. Let's try this:

 

There are not enough good weapons available as alert rewards. The glaive is a new and interesting weapon. THe glaive needed to be an alert reward. The glaive was highly anticipated. Player demand had to be satisfied immediately. Platinum purchases are a way to satisfy player demand. Platinum purchases are a source of income. The glaive needed to be available through platinum purchase.

 

combined with Fornicate's addendum.

 

Is this good?

 

Sounds about right, yes.

[modded]

Debut was good and bad:

 

Good: Available for plat, and alerts. Alert weapons is already a great concept, this makes people go "yay" when they finally get it.

 

Bad: IIRC there have been little to no alerts since it's release containing its BP. IMHO there shoulda been a 6 hour alert (minimum time) for players to nab it, it would still be rarish after about a week or so. Also, plat price was pretty high. $10?! :/

[Blatantfool]

Wasn't the Paris released the same way as the glavie? No BP in market and could on get it via (?) Alerts or Platinum?

 

 No. This is not the case.

 

 The Paris was always Available through Plat or Market Blueprint. There was, however, a glitched alternate BP with an entirely different recipe in the Alert system for some reason.

 

 That alternate BP turned out to be the bugged Alert Blueprint for the Dagger Axe skin for the Scindo.

[Tallius]

 In future perhaps when releasing a me highly anticipated weapon have the Banshee approach. Have it as a small chance to be achieved in a given planet/system but not on the plat market. You don't see people complaining about Banshee and we can all agree she is hard to get.

I agree 100%.

[Venarge]

Want to be clear here. Essentially you agree with my breakdown but hope that it's changed after the initial platinum purchase barrage wears off, am I correct?

 

EDIT: Venarge, am I reading that right as a complete agreement with my breakdown? Or just an agreement with the topic in general?

 

I agree with your breakdown ^^

[LoRDxDeMoN]

Glaive should be a Platinum-only weapon. None of this alert blueprint junk. It's really just a gimmick weapon that doesn't do anything that can't be done with other weapons.

 

So good debut because it requires Platinum, and bad debut because it uses the cumbersome alert system.

Edited April 27, 2013 by LoRDxDeMoN

[TheTenthDoc]

Debut was poorly marketed and executed.

 

People should never, ever, ever be posting on the forums "why isn't this blueprint in the shop" when an item is introduced to the game. That represents a phenomenal error in communication to the players. DE needs to make it clear from the get-go in the future (and also from the patch notes!).

 

I'm also somewhat disconcerted because it doesn't really bode well for the future. I can now believe DE would actually make a frame whose parts only drop from ? alerts that can be buyable with plat, justifying it with "this warframe is super rare!" Banshee is annoying enough, but at least increased work effort by running missions increases your probability of obtaining the frame without plat. It's not dumb luck, it's RNG that you can run any number of times. Alert missions are pure, dumb luck.

 

I don't really care about the Glaive, though, it doesn't look particularly entertaining.

Edited April 27, 2013 by TheTenthDoc

[TunaMayo]

A point you got wrong and two important things to keep in mind.

 

First off, as I've discussed before, there was no "hyping" from DE. That was player-driven hype and they couldn't have prevented it except by closing themselves off to the community altogether.

 

Secondly, I really need your opinion pared down to the essentials. Take the "you" out of it, take the "developer" out of it, take the "other players" out of it. Right now when I do that to this argument it feels like it comes down to "You did a good thing, but it was also bad" which gives them no infformation at all. Read the ones that have been moved to the OP to get a feel for what I mean here.

 

Lastly, I'm trying to avoid solutions -- they've got LOADS of those from the community already I promise you, and they're better equipped to come up with a good solution than the community is. Best to leave that to them. So the whole Banshee thing of your post is best left off, because it presents a solution. If you want to hear my reasoning on this, as I said to CaligoIllioneus -- PM me. I want to keep that kind of thing out of this topic.

Before i reply, please can we not make this a pissing contest and start a rage war or replies, I think your thread is a good idea I'm just defending my post a little.

 

I did mention that the community hyped it up, they begged for it a lot in forums. But DE did hype it up, they let it slip in the livestream and created a post in the Design Council, which is full of most of the people who have played Dark Sector and therefore were the people begging for it. They were basically saying "you asked for it, here you go" without saying "also it's 10 bucks....". It was a smooth way of wetting the pallets of those who they knew would be desperate for the Glaive. They did not do this for either the Grakata or the Ankyros, just using these as they were the most recent weapons pre-glaive.

 

The reason my post sounded like it had conflicting view points is because i was looking at it from conflicting viewpoints. 

The first was from an objective business model, it was a good monetary move on DE's behalf, which I am fine with because A: I'm not going to buy the Glaive unless I get bored, I'll just wait for the alert. and B: gives DE a bit of income, giving us more development of the game.

The second was from the viewpoint of the free to play player who isn't an avid gamer and won't be living on the twitter feed. See I don't mind the alert system, most weapons in this game are usable and fairly similar once modded correctly and the weapons you get from the Alert system are like a nice treat. Something a bit different to play with, but that achieves the same end. The Glaive however is a completely new weapon, throwable melee SICK AS. If this was Alert only, fine, I'll deal with it and so will most people. The fact it was Alert AND plat but not blueprint is a little bit of a slap in the face for a lot of f2p players (please note, not my personal opinion I like what DE do and am not that fussed about the whole issue). I know we have some alert only weapons that are plat as well (heat dagger) but they aren't a new type of weapon that everyone will want to use.

 

So reviewing my summary i guess i would say that the Debut was bad, sorry for being a bit muddled in my first post. Played upon the hype, that the community created and DE added to, to generate some extra income without announcing that it could only be bought by plat or blind luck.

[Gestalt]

My main concern is and has always been with the current alert system.  It's arbitrary and random and is in no way correlated to actual effort a player puts into the game.  Additionally, when the Glaive appears as an alert reward, it wouldn't even be rare anymore, as a large chunk of the playerbase would have gotten it, through no skill, effort or persistence on their part, just the ability to log on and play at the opportune time.  (this is basically Point#1 under Debut Is Bad)

  

Debut Is Bad [7]

 

Point#1 CaligoIllioneus, Shion963 - Glaive was a highly wanted weapon. It should be rare to highlight its worth. Alerts are rare. Alerts, however, are based on dumb luck, on being online at the right 30-45 minutes. Alerts are not challenging, and are not a goal you strive for. You don't do anything, you just have to be online when they appear to basically be freely given the item. You don't actually earn the item. Thus the Glaive needs to be rare in another way.

 

Point#4 Quetzhal, CaligoIllioneus, Story4, Shion963, KingTaro - The anticipation of the playerbase for the Glaive was mishandled. It should have been clear from the start that the blueprint would only be obtainable via alert. Since that wasn't the case, it led to excitement and expectations being dashed upon checking the market, and ultimately resulted in the current backlash. The alert system is not an appropriate way to introduce an entirely new class of weapon. While the excitement of getting a rare upgrade or new weapon belonging to an existing class fits the random nature of the alerts, a new weapon class that borders on gameplay changing does not.

 

Debut Is Good [3]

 

Point#2 Fornicate, Tyrian3k - The glaive should not be limited forever. The blueprint should eventually be released in the store. This will enable more players to use it while maximizing potential profit.

 

Can you add my name to the above points?  I don't know if you want to keep the names exclusively "For" or "Against" (but not both), but I find Point#2 under "Debut Is Good" to be a reasonable compromise (though whether or not suggesting an entirely new method to obtain the glaive that's currently not planned should be considered "For" the debut is debatable).  

 

Thank you so much for taking the effort to organize a thread like this.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Gestalt

[Ageless_Emperion]

Ageless_Emperion - Debut is Good

 

The release for the glaive has been decent so far, I think that it should have been an alert only reward, but I am well aware of the financial reasons why it is purchasable with platinum. The majority of the games' contents are available to players through play and not even intensive play at that and some items need to be introduced into the shop that are enticing enough to produce revenue for it. It should not be the case with every weapon and it has not been, in addition if all items are available in the shop for purchase with in game money this will only serve to stunt the development of the game as there will not be any reason for people to invest money into it. Loyal players aside this will ruin the game over time, like it or not there is no such thing as a "free" game.

 

The weapon itself is iconic and has roots with the material from which warframe came to be, it is unmistakably cool. As a result of this it can be a status symbol for either those who pay for it and support further game development or those who get lucky and find it in an alert. It does not change the way combat works for melee. I have seen the weapon used against the infected and I can say that I can do the same or better with other melee weapons because I will not waste time with having to climb things and pick things off with it. Its refreshing and interesting, but that is the extent to which it deviates from other weapons. It is not essential and it should bear the same status and other alert weapon drops.

 

More weapons of this type should be created and made available in the shop for in game money which will give people access to these mechanics. However, the best looking gear should recieve the same treatment as this item otherwise this game will be starved. We all want to play with the shiny stuff, but if we get it without supporting the game at all then we won't have a game to play after a while.

 

Overall I can't complain about how the weapon was unveiled, I was dissapointed at first, but that quickly faded because I am here to enjoy the game over hopefully a lengthy development lifetime and I am not worried that one of the things I want in it is not within my grasp right now. Adopting that mentality helps deal with the dissapointment after the hype buildup of the release.

[TinFoilMkIV]

You can add me to the three points listed below

 

Debut Is Bad 

 

Blatantfool, Story4 - The Glaive release was poor, but not because of the Glaive. Previous Tenno Reinforcement patches introduced weapons in a smoother, fairer fashion. One that meant you could make a real goal out of a weapon. You play to get anything new or you pay to have it right away. The BluePrint being tied to Alerts doesn't present this. Instead it cares none if you play a lot or not at all. Only that you are there when the RNG says its time. You can't truly make a goal out of RNG and this takes from the game and the player.

 

Quetzhal, CaligoIllioneus, Story4, Shion963, KingTaro - The anticipation of the playerbase for the Glaive was mishandled. It should have been clear from the start that the blueprint would only be obtainable via alert. Since that wasn't the case, it led to excitement and expectations being dashed upon checking the market, and ultimately resulted in the current backlash. The alert system is not an appropriate way to introduce an entirely new class of weapon. While the excitement of getting a rare upgrade or new weapon belonging to an existing class fits the random nature of the alerts, a new weapon class that borders on gameplay changing does not.

 

Debut Is Good

 

Tyrian3k - There are not enough good weapons available as alert rewards. The glaive is a new and interesting weapon. The glaive needed to be an alert reward. The glaive was highly anticipated. Player demand had to be satisfied immediately. Platinum purchases are a way to satisfy player demand. Platinum purchases are a source of income. The glaive needed to be available through platinum purchase.

 

 

 

While I am okay with the current implementation of the glaive, I do agree that Alerts are not entirely appropriate for the first weapon of a new class. Also there was the lack of clear communication, while this is probably as much of a lack of communication between the parties involved with the weapon release within DE as it is with the information they gave to the players. Could have been handled better info wise, and I believe DE is aware of this as well.

 

That being said, we really did need new alert weapons, I like to see cool new stuff that can show up in alerts, although the system itself could use quite a bit of improvement.

 

 

Also I just wanted to point out that the Paris is not in the same classification of the glaive, the description said it was "based off one of the oldest weapon designs", not that the Paris itself is an old weapon.