Expensivemasteryfodderframe, Forumriotframe, Arbitrarydeveloperdecisionsframe, Nerf It All! Down To The Mk-1 Ground!

[ThePresident777]

EDIT 01/28/2015:  I guess this can serve as the synopsis of the idea:

 

The concept is very simple and effective:

 

1)  Every weapon has a purpose.

2)  Every purpose has a metric.

3)  Every metric has a maximum.

4)  Every weapon advances along the metric of it's purpose to it's maximum.

5)  Mutipurpose weapons require a mathematician to create.

 

Since the metrics are objective, all the differences between weapons of a particular purpose are subjective.

 

People will want to make a big deal about complications but that is moot because:

1)  Mathmaticians

2)  Players will gravitate to whatever they feel they like and can understand, such as DPS.

3)  there are easy choices so no need to complicate.  (But, if you do want to complicate, hire a mathematician.)

 

The benefit is huge because a ton of weapons stop being obsolete, mastery fodder.  So, when people feel they have nothing to do, they will look to new weapons to invest in knowing that it's not just a waste, not just mastery fodder.  They can be confident that their money is not going to be wasted by nerfs or power expansion.  They can build up their arsenal horizontally or vertically as they see fit.

 

Weapons easily measured by DPS such as assault rifles are an easy example.  You pick which ever dakka dakka you prefer.  Dump your time and potatoes into it knowing that it's not going to get nerfed or surpassed.  If you're bored, pick another weapon, maybe a bow, for stealth, maybe .. whatever you want.  It's not going to become obsolete because everything can be the best at what it's supposed to do.  It gives people the confidence that it's safe to build up their arsenals, to invest in the game.

 

Yes, it's simple.  Yes, complications are a choice.  And Yes, a mathematician can help with that.  But, it's no excuse to turn down this massive problem solver.

 

The rest is history.

 

=============

EDIT:  12/17/2014

 

I've rethought my solution to the problem.  If you just want to skip ahead to it then go half way into: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/364980-expensivemasteryfodderframe-forumriotframe-arbitrarydeveloperdecisionsframe-nerf-it-all-down-to-the-mk-1-ground/#entry4047742

 

Otherwise, just keep reading.

 

=========== Problem

 

The Kohm has the performance of a starter weapon and the cost of a veteran weapon.  Therefore, it is expensive mastery fodder.  And, that is a shame because the game play and artistry that the Kohm represents, and the developer time spent on it, just go to waste.  No one will spend on convinience if the content has no convinience associated with it.  It also deprives the game of player agency and variety and choice because you have to chose either effectiveness (i.e., game pace) or aesthetics (in terms of visual and auditory cosmetics and play style) from choices made arbitrarily for you, the player, by the developers or forum rioters, when you shouldn't have to choose between such inherently independent qualities at all, let alone have the choice made for you.  Such qualities should work together to entice players to spend their convinience money, or at the very least have a favorable opinion of the game, rather than turn them away.  Such arbitrarily imposed choices create player base fractures that cannot be threaded.

 

Let's keep in mind that happy players are busy playing the game and buying plat.  Happy players are not busy rioting on the forums.  No one buys plat to riot on the forums.  There is no convinience cost, or profit, associated with the forums.  What appears as concensus on the forums hides the fracture between the players who accepted the new situation and the ones that wrote off DE.  Such a fracture is impossible to thread.  ForumRiotFrame is a pure loser.  ArbitraryDeveloperDecisionsFrame is a pure loser.

 

The Kohm is far from the only weapon that suffers from this.  It is far from the only developer time that is wasted, profit lost, because of arbitrary developer decisions, or rule by forum riot.  Therefore this issue has a wide scope and a large significance.

 

 

========== Solution

 

I propose a solution here.  (Although I have since discovered the bestest and mostest solution of them all.  Go half way into here if you want to skip to it)

 

(The following proposed solution is no longer supported by me.  It is here now only for historical reasons. My current solution is in the link above.)

 

This situation could be resolved quickly and easily by nerfing all the weapon DPSes (Damage / Second) and costs down to the lowest weapon tier and increasing the range of Serration type mods massively (I do mean MASSIVELY) so that those mods become the means to move weapons into high tiers, thereby maximizing player agency, choice, variety, and developer time and profit.  No longer should the game mechanics developers sabotage the efforts of the cosmetics developers or the will of players to spend their convinience money.

 

To reiterate, I've reconsidered this solution and found an even better one.  Go half way into here if you want to skip to it.

 

The reason why my first solution does not work and my second solution does is that Serration type mods apply to all weapons equally so you can't use them to give all weapons the same max potential.

 

My second solution lets you upgrade a lesser weapon to a greater weapon, as a convenience.  It doesn't make great weapons great.  It makes lesser weapons great, conveniently.

 

Further more, the crappy mods have to move up to parrity with the not crappy mods.  The crappy mods are all (or nearly all) timing mods which factor into DPS (Damage / Second) equations in the denominator.  The not crappy mods are all (or nearly all) damage mods which factor into DPS equations in the numerator.  It is entirely wasteful to arbitrarily relegate timing mods to the inferior category.  DE gains nothing by this arbitrary distinction and loses nothing by giving timing mods parity with the damage mods.  It is another case of arbitrarily opposing player choice and player will to spend convinience money.  It is not profitable.

 

As for Legendary cores, they should be changed so that they increase rank up to the current highest rank, not the extended ranks.  This will maintain parity with the old and not sabotage the new.

 

Nailed it!  Ha!

Edited March 4, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

I hope this is sarcasm, or some roundabout complaint.

Because if it isn't...I'm not sure what to think.

[xXRampantXx]

~snip~

Let's keep in mind that happy players are busy playing the game and buying plat.  Happy players are not busy rioting on the forums.

~snip~

I am a happy player, and I buy very little plat and I do all kinds rioting on the forums.

 

I hope this is sarcasm, or some roundabout complaint.

Because if it isn't...I'm not sure what to think.

And I have to agree with this guy, no offence, but this idea is horrible.

Edited December 13, 2014 by xXRampantXx

[FLSH_BNG]

I would like to ask exactly how you expect anyone to be able to perform adequately on missions beyond level 20 if all of our weapons are nerfed down to... well, NERF guns?

 

I can understand that you feel some loyalty to the game, having contributed heavily to the Founder's Program; but as a fellow member of the DC, I can't agree with anything you've said.

[Archistopheles]

Holy thread, batman. I feel like I'm back in Update 8!

I thought people like us had died out when they released Boltor Prime.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Archistopheles

[Ska-boo]

 

 

 

 

 

I think you all either have missed the OP's point completely, or should really tone down your urge to post just to post

 

He doesn't propose to change your Boltor P into Mk-1 Braton, he proposes to make Mk-1 Braton buffable to the point of Boltor P via bigger customisation by mods, which could tweak the situation with 99% of Warframe's arsenal being useless placeholders.

 

 

 

I agree with you that the current situation sort of suck, but I'm not sure about your proposed solution. After all, it is not really base damage that decides how good the weapon is (not in most of the cases, at least). It's mostly crit/status chance and considering how these stats are affected by modding now (stacking percents of percents) it will either take to rework that mechanic, or add mods with really insane stats, which in its turn will lead to appearance of weapon with 300 or even 400+ % chance to crit.

 

I'd really rater see them buff weapons' significantly, or add alternative customisation to weapon, available to more advanced players.

 

For completely random example: add blueprint of alternative weapon parts to market, which could be purchased, crafted, and then be used to make your old Burston as nearly able, as Burston Prime.

[vaugahn]

I think you all either have missed the OP's point completely, or should really tone down your urge to post just to post

 

He doesn't propose to change your Boltor P into Mk-1 Braton, he proposes to make Mk-1 Braton buffable to the point of Boltor P via bigger customisation by mods, which could tweak the situation with 99% of Warframe's arsenal being useless placeholders.

No, I got that part. It's just, that's not really a good solution. It would simply exacerbate our existing balance problems, rather than actually fixing them.

And the rambling about forum rioting and plat spending kind of obfuscated said point as well.

[Jahakarr]

The Kohm has the performance of a starter weapon and the cost of a veteran weapon.  Therefore, it is expensive mastery fodder.  And, that is a shame because the game play and artistry that the Kohm represents, and the developer time spent on it, just go to waste.  No one will spend on convinience if the content has no convinience associated with it.  It also deprives the game of player agency and variety and choice because you have to chose either effectiveness (i.e., game pace) or aesthetics (in terms of cosmetics and play style) from choices made arbitrarily for you by the developers or forum rioters when you shouldn't have to choose between such inherently independent qualities at all, let alone have the choice made for you.  Such qualities should work together to entice players to spend their convinience money rather than turn them away.  Such arbitrarily imposed choices create player base fractures that cannot be threaded.

 

Let's keep in mind that happy players are busy playing the game and buying plat.  Happy players are not busy rioting on the forums.  No one buys plat to riot on the forums.  There is no convinience cost, or profit, associated with the forums.  What appears as concensus on the forums hides the fracture between the players who accepted the new situation and the ones that wrote off DE.  Such a fracture is impossible to thread.  ForumRiotFrame is a pure loser.  ArbitraryDeveloperDecisionsFrame is a pure loser.

 

The Kohm is far from the only weapon that suffers from this.  It is far from the only developer time that is wasted, profit lost because of arbitrary developer decisions, or rule by forum riot.  Therefore this issue has a wide scope and large significance.

 

This situation could be resolved quickly and easily by nerfing all the weapon DPSes (Damage / Second) and costs down to the lowest weapon tier and increasing the range of Serration type mods massively (I do mean MASSIVELY) so that those mods become the means to move weapons into high tiers, thereby maximizing player agency, choice, variety, and developer time and profit.  No longer should the game mechanics developers sabotage the efforts of the cosmetics developers or the will of players to spend their convinience money.

 

Further more, the crappy mods have to move up to parrity with the not crappy mods.  The crappy mods are all (or nearly all) timing mods which factor into DPS (Damage / Second) equations in the denominator.  The not crappy mods are all (or nearly all) damage mods which factor into DPS equations in the numerator.  It is entirely wasteful to arbitrarily relegate timing mods to the inferior category.  DE gains nothing by this arbitrary distinction and loses nothing by giving timing mods parity with the damage mods.  It is another case of arbitrarily opposing player choice and player will to spend convinience money.  It is not profitable.

 

As for Legendary cores, they should be changed so that they increase rank up to the current highest rank, not the extended ranks.  This will maintain parity with the old and not sabotage the new.

 

Nailed it!  Ha!

 

They ever so slightly hinted at buffing snipers and shotguns in the last devstream, so maybe the kohm becomes decent when they apply it :P

 

Personally? I have no faith in the kohm unless it receives a MAJOR buff, i mean come on.. It's completely worthless and just to add insult to injury? It comes with a freaking D slot which is always just a slap in the face as well as a really cheap way of making us buy one more forma than what would have been necessary.

[Racercowboy]

I do agree with the OPs setiments, but his solution is far from what we need.

 

You see, we already have what the OP is proposing minus all weapons being Mk1-Braton level. It holds more issues than just imbalancing the game, it also stifles customization options. Do we really want more of this?

 

I'd rather see lower tier weapons upgradable via foundry so you can build them up to the power of a high tier. For instance, at masery rank 6, you can upgrade your Mk1-Braton to become as powerful as a soma. When the player continues to increase in mastery ranks, he can choose to further increase his Mk1-Braton or get a soma and level that up. The curb the costs of lower tier vs high tier, higher tiers can cost more to upgrade so it evens out in the end.

 

We don't need more things to take out the "modding" and throw in "optimizing". We have enough of that already.

[ThePresident777]

This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with balance. So, please, do not derail the topic with talk of balance.

This topic is entirely about the business of Warframe. Yet, it has nothing to do with prices either. It's about selection and customer satisfaction. Warframe's business model is cosmetics and convinience. DE has admitted this and it's obvious to anyone who has played Warframe for a while.

The fact of the matter is that cosmetics do not level. They have no metrics, no DPS. they do not impact the pace of the game. They are purely a visual aesthetic item. That is not the case with game play elements such as weapons.

In Warframe your Tenno starts out at the minimum power level. Your only choice in this regard is how much more powerful your Tenno will be above minimum, within the limits set by DE. This topic is about the arbitrary restriction of player choice within the limits set by DE, and what a business fail that is. It's not about the absolute value or magnitude of the max limits. It's not about the boundaries but what you can do within the boundaries.

The facts of the matter are that in Warframe you can purchase the convinience of faster affinity, regardless of the content you have. You can purchase the convinience of faster credit accumulation, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase mod packs, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase keys, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase potatoes, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase Warframes, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase weapons, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have.

You can conviniently purchase power, instead of only farming it, but in this case DE will decide your options for you for no good reason at all.

You cannot farm cosmetics. You can only purchase them. And if you could farm them, and even pay for their convinience, it would not change anything relevant to this discussion. But, DE does not decide for you which are the ugly cosmetics and which are the attractive cosmetics. You make that choice for yourself and purchase what you want out of what's offered.

Purely cosmetic items are produced by the visual artists without interference from the game mechanics developers. The visual artists do not set out to make ugly items and attractive items. They do not make items with an ugliness rating or an attractiveness rating. They just try to make all sorts of great stuff to appeal to all sorts of Warframe customers that would be interested in purchasing cosmetics. The visual artists never attempt to produce low tier items, only top tier items.  The visual artists never beat their good ideas with an ugly stick, and neither do the audio developers.

With weapons, the situation is very different and disfunctional. You do not decide for yourself which weapons are attractive in appearance, sound, handling, and power, within the confines of the game as set by DE. DE virtually makes that decision for you, for no good reason at all. You can decide for yourself which weapons are attractive in appearance, or sound, or handling, or power, but, you cannot choose all those things for your self in the confines of the game because DE arbitrarily mixes those qualities and arbitrarily limits your ability to improve them, within the limits of the game.  Rather than maximizing the  convinience of weapons, DE is wasting it.  This results in lost profits and lost customer satisfaction and fewer players.

So, if you like the way the Kohm sounds, or looks ,or handles, but you'd like to kill a T3 heavy gunner with it sometime before 2016, enven while forced to rely on your team to farm ammo for you, tough luck for you. It's not happening at ~79 DPS. You do not get to make that choice because DE said so, for no good reason at all.

 

That is what this discussion is about. It's about your choice within the limits of the game. It's not about the limits of the game. It's not about max DPS. It's not about max TTK (Time To Kill a target). It's not about top sprint speed. It's not about max stamina. It's not about the pace of the game. It's not about the price of anything.

It's about what you can put on your plate from the smorgasborg. DE has decided to put pasta and marinara sauce on the smorgasborg table, but, they will not let you mix both on your plate because REASONS.

============= Solution

I have proposed a solution to this disfunction in my Original Post. But, I have an even better solution that is easy to implement and fits Warframe's business model perfectly. Weapon Tier Potatoes!

Warframe has weapon tiers. We don't know what they are because DE has not divulged them. But, we know they exist because DE said so in a devstream last year, and we know how to calculate DPS. All DE has to do is define them and allow players to put Weapon Tier Potatoes in their weapons. Defining the weapon tiers means that the current weapons will stay exactly where they are in the weapon tiers and will be considered to already have Weapon Tier Pototoes in them according to what tier they are already in. DE just has to sort out the tiers, and resource and convinience costs.

This means that your boltor prime does not get nerfed. If you want a top tier weapon, you have a choice, you can go straight to a top tier weapon like a boltor prime, or you can take your favorite lower tier weapon, and put weapon tier potatoes in them, one for each tier you want to take it up to. 

Let's say that Warframe has 8 weapon tiers. You could take a low tier weapon like the MK-1 Braton up to 8 weapon tier potatoes. A weapon like the boltor prime, which is already in the top weapon tier, would NOT be allowed to take any weapon tier potatoes because it's already maxed out by design.

 

[EDIT 01/08/2015:  Alternatively, new weapon BPs could be issued and the old BPs made into Arcanes, as was done with helmets.]

 

But, what should the Weapon Tier Potatoes do? Or how should the weapon tiers be constructed? They should be constructed objectively otherwise the issue will not be resolved. Players are already objectively choosing weapons from the limited pool of top tier weapons and not spending money on the low tier weapons. The best objective measure of a weapon that I am aware of that is commonly considered by gamers is Damage Per Second. So, I suggest the weapon tiers be constructed on DPS.

But, what exactly should the Weapon Tier Potatoes adjust? They should adjust the base damage because base damage is just an arbitrary and meaningless number that you cannot feel directly. You can feel time. You can feel how long it takes to run out of bullets. You can feel the time it takes to reload a gun. You can feel how often you run out of bullets and how much time you spend reloading compared to how much time you spend shooting. You can feel the time it takes to draw a weapon. Players should be allowed to control that themselves with mods that have parity to the damage mods. Timing mods are complicated. They control both the feel and objective performance of a weapon.

But damage can only be felt as pertains to killing a target. You feel it in relation to how fast you kill things. Damage feels like nothing when you shoot a wall. But rate of fire, reload time, and magazine size all have a feel every time you pull the trigger regardless of what you shoot at. Damage is purely abstract. It's also, simplest.

Weapon Tier Potatoes are profitable because people want top teir weapons and increased customization and choice. Weapon Tier Potatoes bridge the gap between the aesthetics of weapons and their effect on game pace. They allow players to have weapons for both cosmetic and game play reasons maximizing their satisfaction in the game and their purchases.

Weapon Tier Potatoes are not pay to win because potatoes are already a convenience item.

Weapon Tier Potatoes will not hurt slot sales because people already treat the majority of the weapons as mastery fodder, not bothering to buy a slot or potatoe for them.

There is already a top and a bottom weapon tier so this has nothing to do with balance. Anyone wanting to argue about what the weapon tiers should be or that they shouldn't exist must take their thoughts to another thread because that is not what this thread is about.

Edited January 9, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Racercowboy]

sniped

 

While your OP may not be about balancing, the changes you propose heavily influence that aspect to the point where it cannot be ignored. If you change something to fix one problem but it causes a different one, then was the change really worth it?

 

Also, your idea seems like it was literally taken out of my other post up there, with a lot more paragraphs. Did you just not see it after publishing your post?

[ThePresident777]

If we don't know the difference between potatoes and foundry, then, I don't see how we can have a discussion on anything in particular.  We're not discussing anything in specific if we're not clear.  We're just discussing the difference between this or that as opposed to directly discussing either one or the other.  We're confusing two different things merely because they might have some similarity or connection.   This is how problems become insurmountable and progress fails.

 

And, again, I've made it extremely clear why this topic is not about balance at all.

[Racercowboy]

If we don't know the difference between potatoes and foundry, then, I don't see how we can have a discussion on anything in particular.  We're not discussing anything in specific if we're not clear.  We're just discussing the difference between this or that as opposed to directly discussing either one or the other.  We're confusing two different things merely because they might have some similarity or connection.   This is how problems become insurmountable and progress fails.

 

And, again, I've made it extremely clear why this topic is not about balance at all.

If you mean potatoes that up a weapon a tier as opposed to using the foundry to upgrade a weapon to the next tier, then I see what you mean. It's a different method, but does the same thing.

 

You can deny that your topic is not on balancing all you want, but what you are proposing to be done is fixing the balance between different weapons. The problem you outline is a product of bad game balance and you wish to fix it. This is not a bad thing at all, and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know why you constantly deny that this topic is not on game balance. You want to fix game balance to give people more choices, and this is why people keep bringing up game balance in this post.

[xXRampantXx]

I think you all either have missed the OP's point completely, or should really tone down your urge to post just to post

 

He doesn't propose to change your Boltor P into Mk-1 Braton, he proposes to make Mk-1 Braton buffable to the point of Boltor P via bigger customisation by mods, which could tweak the situation with 99% of Warframe's arsenal being useless placeholders.

You are wrong, I understood exactly what OP's point was, and i didn't post "just to post."  The OP wants to make all weapons equally viable, and while that would not be bad, his original solution would be.  His second idea is relatively good.  The "weapon tier potatoes" he proposes (which I will call "upgrade kits" to avoid confusion) would be a reasonable method of  making this work.  however, there are several things that must be pointed out.  

One: Mk I weapons are meant to be low tier beginner weapons.  the only real reason for their existence is for players to get during the tutorial to try out, Mk I weapons should not be tier upgradable, instead their should be conversion BPs that players are given relatively soon after the tutorial that convert the Mk I version to the normal version.

Two: the generic version of a weapon should not be upgradable to the level of that weapons prime variant.  The Boltor cannot be made as powerful as the Boltor Prime, the the Burston cannot be made as powerful as the Burston Prime, and the Paris cannot be made as powerful as the Paris Prime because this ruins the entire point of the existence of prime weapons.

Three: Upgrading a Tier one weapon to Tier eight should be equally difficult to acquiring a weapon already at Tier eight.  For example, to upgrade the Braton to the same power as the boltor prime must be equally difficult to acquiring the Boltor Prime.

 

I would also like to point out, that no matter how much the OP says he isn't talking about balance, what he is suggesting is, at it's most basic, a method of balancing every weapon in the game.  Therefore, this is a balance discussion.

 

~snip~

You can deny that your topic is not on balancing all you want, but what you are proposing to be done is fixing the balance between different weapons. The problem you outline is a product of bad game balance and you wish to fix it. This is not a bad thing at all, and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't know why you constantly deny that this topic is not on game balance. You want to fix game balance to give people more choices, and this is why people keep bringing up game balance in this post.

Oh, look, this guy already said that.

[Ska-boo]

You are wrong, I understood exactly what OP's point was, and i didn't post "just to post."  The OP wants to make all weapons equally viable, and while that would not be bad, his original solution would be.

 

I see. Sorry then, but yet you could have made your point clearer in the first post. Even if his idea is bad, he still managed to compile some coherent text in OP, so I figured some more elaborate reply was deserved.

One: Mk I weapons are meant to be low tier beginner weapons.  the only real reason for their existence is for players to get during the tutorial to try out, Mk I weapons should not be tier upgradable, instead their should be conversion BPs that players are given relatively soon after the tutorial that convert the Mk I version to the normal version.

I don't see the need for it, since every Mk-1 weapon has its normal analogue, which is not different in any way, except for stats. Just throw it out of the airlock and buy non-Mk1 version

 

 

Two: the generic version of a weapon should not be upgradable to the level of that weapons prime variant.  The Boltor cannot be made as powerful as the Boltor Prime, the the Burston cannot be made as powerful as the Burston Prime, and the Paris cannot be made as powerful as the Paris Prime because this ruins the entire point of the existence of prime weapons.

Three: ... For example, to upgrade the Braton to the same power as the boltor prime must be equally difficult to acquiring the Boltor Prime.

How is that you say Braton cannot be upgraded to the level of Braton P, while being able to be upped to the tier of Boltor P, when Boltor P is higher than Braton P? Does not compute.

 

Either weapon can be upgraded to its Primed counterpart level and even beyond, or every weapon has a certain tier-cap, beyond which it cannot be improved

Edited December 15, 2014 by Ska-boo

[Ska-boo]

If we don't know the difference between potatoes and foundry, then, I don't see how we can have a discussion on anything in particular.

Yeah, cause it's such a profound conceptional difference between shoving potato in an item and shoving item in a foundry to achieve exactly same result, that it cannot simply be compared and discussed in one topic.

 

Also, you should really stop skipping links in the cause-effect chain just to overstate importance of the thing. Here how's it look like: weapons are unbalanced  - player is forced to use certain weapons, despite his preferences - he has no reason to buy weapons from market, cause they are all unusable - "muh business model suffer"

 

While business model indeed may suffer, we are dealing with the first link in this chain here, not the last. And even though you may think that stating otherwise is useful, cause it will make it look bigger a deal, such approach, in fact, just makes initially good ideas look like schisophrenia.

[xXRampantXx]

I see. Sorry then, but yet you could have made your point clearer in the first post. Even if his idea is bad, he still managed to compile some coherent text in OP, so I figured some more elaborate reply was deserved.

I don't see the need for it, since every Mk-1 weapon has its normal analogue, which is not different in any way, except for stats. Just throw it out of the airlock and buy non-Mk1 version

You are right, I was in a hurry, and I should've waited until I had time for a more complete post.  The reason for the Mk 1 conversion BPs is because besides the Strun, the Braton, and the Lato, all the default variants must be made with blueprints, therefore, rather than having to buy the BP for the generic version and build it, the person simply has a BP that was given to they to convert the Mk I to the generic. This doesn't really matter for the Strun, the Braton, and the Lato, but for the otehrs it would make it much easier for a new player.

How is that you say Braton cannot be upgraded to the level of Braton P, while being able to be upped to the tier of Boltor P, when Boltor P is higher than Braton P? Does not compute.

I gave a bad example.  My point was that to upgrade a low tier weapon to a high tier weapon must  be equally difficult as acquiring a weapon already at a higher tier.

Either weapon can be upgraded to its Primed counterpart level and even beyond, or every weapon has a certain tier-cap, beyond which it cannot be improved

Every weapon obviously would have a tier cap, I had assumed something like the Boltor prime (being as powerful as it is) would start at its tier cap, whereas the generic Boltor's tier cap would be just slightly less effective than the Prime.  

 

I initially misunderstood what you said, and wrote a much longer response, wile it no longer applies, I will keep it in the post as it make what I feel is a very good point.

Either a weapon cannot be upgraded to match it's Prime variant, or the Prime variant must be upgradable as well to keep it better than it's non-prime variant, otherwise there is no reason for the Prime variant to exist.  If X is  equal to or better X Prime, than what is the point of X Prime?  Even if it is just some utility like a Prime Warframe's energy gain from death orbs, the Prime version must have something that sets it above it's non-prime counterpart, be it damage, status chance, crit chance, or some form of utility the generic doesn't have.

[Ska-boo]

If X is  equal to or better X Prime, than what is the point of X Prime?

For the shiny golden trims, obviously.

But in case it's not enough, how would you like this: you can grind every part of Prime weapon and install it in the body of its non-primed version, giving it the stats of a prime.

 

Do you think it would be fair enough for Primes?

[FATEdPondera]

Really? Your solution for a weapon that has low damage, high ammo consumption, and functions on a newly developed mechanic is to.....nerf everything and remove Serration as a mod.....

 

It's threads like this that make me really glad you aren't in charge.

 

Okay, here's the deal. DE releases a new weapon like on an experimental basis, and waits several days to see how it does. From simple observation, they got their answer: not very well. And the changes were simple: increase damage, increase ammo efficiency, make the developed mechanic stronger, and IMPROVE the weapon. It's a pretty clear pattern.

 

I've never had a problem with weapon variety in this game. Honestly, it is the widest range of diverse weapons I've ever been presented in any game I've ever played. And they are ALL effective outside of the starting/newbie weapon bracket. The new weapon augment mods reinforce that. After I constructed my Mire, I used it once for amusement, leveled it, and moved on. Now, with Toxic Blight, it is my main melee weapon. As far as I'm concerned, the only weapon that should be nerfed AT ALL is the Boltor Prime, just on account of its higher base damage than other weapons in the same availability bracket.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

(opening post)

Darn good stuff, Prez! Though I'd prefer the ability to upgrade or downgrade the 'taters on my weapon, the concept mentioned here is so good!

Edited January 9, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Bobtm]

This is just not even in the same realm as a good idea as far as I' concerned.  Beyond that, if you can't even understand how this is specifically a balance issue then... I barely know why I'm bothering.

 

Anyways, the first idea is outlandishly bad, and the second presented idea is literally no better.  The most glaring of flaws here is that you're specifically and only using DPS and nothing more as the benchmark here, there's a lot more to weapons than DPS.  How would something like this even dream of handling aspects of status chance or crit?  How about ammo economy?  Where does accuracy figure in?  Weapons with AoE?  How about alternate weaponry types like Shotguns or Snipers?  What of obscure weaponry?

 

Yes, I get that you're solely suggesting this out of your personal beliefs that it would aid the game's paying model, but there's a flip side to the coin.  If you ruin the existent variety of the game and thusly cause it to become uninteresting and bland.  There's no reason for folks to play this over any other generic space shooter.  Having a core understanding of game balance is integral to this sort of thing, as is thinking of it from a business standpoint.

 

Your whole ideology is flying in the face of the former of the two parts, basically trivializing your own idea.  You can work on making a car as cost efficient as you like, but if it doens't have a frame it'll fall apart right away.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Bobtm

[ThePresident777]

If DPS were not so important, then players would not consistently gravitate towards it; nerfers wouldn't complain about Boltor Prime incessantly, and DE would have not consistently nerfed every single 400+ DPS weapon it created prior to Boltor Prime.  And, yes, Boar Prime, with it's unmodded 413 DPS, was nerfed, by damage fall off, not accuracy or spread.  Prior to damage fall off, shotguns were popular despite their spread and inaccuracy.

 

So, DPS is a very popular metric and if there is another competing metric, such as damage fall off, so what?  The existence of multiple metrics is not an argument against Weapon Tier Potatoes.  It's an argument for as many Weapon Tier Potatoes TYPES as there are objective metrics.  It's an argument for objective metrics.  It's an argument for player choice.  It's an argument for a weapon progression system.  It's an argument for Weapon Teir Potatoes, instead of an argument for DE or Forum Rioters arbitrarily deciding for the players which are the objectively better weapons and making the rest into mastery fodder.  Keep in mind that it costs developer time to create the visuals and audio for all that mastery fodder.  It would be cheaper for DE to not bother with the expense and just allow forma to increase mastery.

 

There could be accuracy Weapon Teir Potatoes.  There could be projectile velocity Weapon Teir Potatoes.  There could be damage fall off Weapon Tier Potatoes.  There could be a weapon Tier Potatoe for every aspect of a weapon.  Since they are all Weapon Tier Potatoes, despite being different types, you can only stack as many of them as there are weapon tiers.  Then each player can decide for themselves which weapon to progress and which way to progress it, all within the boundaries set by DE, conveniently.

 

My thanks for attacking the primacy of DPS.  The inspiration is welcome.

Edited December 16, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Bobtm]

As much as I still personally think it's a horrid idea, at least it now incorporates all the facets of weaponry... even if it's an overly obscure manner.

 

Of course DPS is always going to be the most popular metric though, that's just sensible.  But to say it's the only one which exists on the developer end when regarding game balance, that's just both closed minded and wrong.

 

Anyways I've basically said my peace with this thing.  I don't like the idea, but at least it does now actually cover its based as would be needed for it to actually work without breaking the entire game.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with balance. So, please, do not derail the topic with talk of balance.

This topic is entirely about the business of Warframe. Yet, it has nothing to do with prices either. It's about selection and customer satisfaction. Warframe's business model is cosmetics and convinience. DE has admitted this and it's obvious to anyone who has played Warframe for a while.

The fact of the matter is that cosmetics do not level. They have no metrics, no DPS. they do not impact the pace of the game. They are purely a visual aesthetic item. That is not the case with game play elements such as weapons.

In Warframe your Tenno starts out at the minimum power level. Your only choice in this regard is how much more powerful your Tenno will be above minimum, within the limits set by DE. This topic is about the arbitrary restriction of player choice within the limits set by DE, and what a business fail that is. It's not about the absolute value or magnitude of the max limits. It's not about the boundaries but what you can do within the boundaries.

The facts of the matter are that in Warframe you can purchase the convinience of faster affinity, regardless of the content you have. You can purchase the convinience of faster credit accumulation, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase mod packs, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase keys, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase potatoes, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase Warframes, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have. You can conviniently purchase weapons, instead of only farming them, regardless of the content you have.

You can conviniently purchase power, instead of only farming it, but in this case DE will decide your options for you for no good reason at all.

You cannot farm cosmetics. You can only purchase them. And if you could farm them, and even pay for their convinience, it would not change anything relevant to this discussion. But, DE does not decide for you which are the ugly cosmetics and which are the attractive cosmetics. You make that choice for yourself and purchase what you want out of what's offered.

Purely cosmetic items are produced by the visual artists without interference from the game mechanics developers. The visual artists do not set out to make ugly items and attractive items. They do not make items with an ugliness rating or an attractiveness rating. They just try to make all sorts of great stuff to appeal to all sorts of Warframe customers that would be interested in purchasing cosmetics. The visual artists never attempt to produce low tier items, only top tier items.  The visual artists never beat their good ideas with an ugly stick, and neither do the audio developers.

With weapons, the situation is very different and disfunctional. You do not decide for yourself which weapons are attractive in appearance, sound, handling, and power, within the confines of the game as set by DE. DE virtually makes that decision for you, for no good reason at all. You can decide for yourself which weapons are attractive in appearance, or sound, or handling, or power, but, you cannot choose all those things for your self in the confines of the game because DE arbitrarily mixes those qualities and arbitrarily limits your ability to improve them, within the limits of the game.  Rather than maximizing the  convinience of weapons, DE is wasting it.  This results in lost profits and lost customer satisfaction and fewer players.

So, if you like the way the Kohm sounds, or looks ,or handles, but you'd like to kill a T3 heavy gunner with it sometime before 2016, enven while forced to rely on your team to farm ammo for you, tough luck for you. It's not happening at ~79 DPS. You do not get to make that choice because DE said so, for no good reason at all.

 

That is what this discussion is about. It's about your choice within the limits of the game. It's not about the limits of the game. It's not about max DPS. It's not about max TTK (Time To Kill a target). It's not about top sprint speed. It's not about max stamina. It's not about the pace of the game. It's not about the price of anything.

It's about what you can put on your plate from the smorgasborg. DE has decided to put pasta and marinara sauce on the smorgasborg table, but, they will not let you mix both on your plate because REASONS.

============= Solution

I have proposed a solution to this disfunction in my Original Post. But, I have an even better solution that is easy to implement and fits Warframe's business model perfectly. Weapon Tier Potatoes!

Warframe has weapon tiers. We don't know what they are because DE has not divulged them. But, we know they exist because DE said so in a devstream last year, and we know how to calculate DPS. All DE has to do is define them and allow players to put Weapon Tier Potatoes in their weapons. Defining the weapon tiers means that the current weapons will stay exactly where they are in the weapon tiers and will be considered to already have Weapon Tier Pototoes in them according to what tier they are already in. DE just has to sort out the tiers, and resource and convinience costs.

This means that your boltor prime does not get nerfed. If you want a top tier weapon, you have a choice, you can go straight to a top tier weapon like a boltor prime, or you can take your favorite lower tier weapon, and put weapon tier potatoes in them, one for each tier you want to take it up to.

Let's say that Warframe has 8 weapon tiers. You could take a low tier weapon like the MK-1 Braton up to 8 weapon tier potatoes. A weapon like the boltor prime, which is already in the top weapon tier, would NOT be allowed to take any weapon tier potatoes because it's already maxed out by design.

But, what should the Weapon Tier Potatoes do? Or how should the weapon tiers be constructed? They should be constructed objectively otherwise the issue will not be resolved. Players are already objectively choosing weapons from the limited pool of top tier weapons and not spending money on the low tier weapons. The best objective measure of a weapon that I am aware of that is commonly considered by gamers is Damage Per Second. So, I suggest the weapon tiers be constructed on DPS.

But, what exactly should the Weapon Tier Potatoes adjust? They should adjust the base damage because base damage is just an arbitrary and meaningless number that you cannot feel directly. You can feel time. You can feel how long it takes to run out of bullets. You can feel the time it takes to reload a gun. You can feel how often you run out of bullets and how much time you spend reloading compared to how much time you spend shooting. You can feel the time it takes to draw a weapon. Players should be allowed to control that themselves with mods that have parity to the damage mods. Timing mods are complicated. They control both the feel and objective performance of a weapon.

But damage can only be felt as pertains to killing a target. You feel it in relation to how fast you kill things. Damage feels like nothing when you shoot a wall. But rate of fire, reload time, and magazine size all have a feel every time you pull the trigger regardless of what you shoot at. Damage is purely abstract. It's also, simplest.

Weapon Tier Potatoes are profitable because people want top teir weapons and increased customization and choice. Weapon Tier Potatoes bridge the gap between the aesthetics of weapons and their effect on game pace. They allow players to have weapons for both cosmetic and game play reasons maximizing their satisfaction in the game and their purchases.

Weapon Tier Potatoes are not pay to win because potatoes are already a convinience item.

Weapon Tier Potatoes will not hurt slot sales because people already treat the majority of the weapons as mastery fodder, not bothering to buy a slot or potatoe for them.

There is already a top and a bottom weapon tier so this has nothing to do with balance. Anyone wanting to argue about what the weapon tiers should be or that they shouldn't exist must take their thoughts to another thread because that is not what this thread is about.

 

See, the main problem with the weapon tier potato idea is the same one with any sidegrade system. Keeping everything balanced when you have hundreds of guns. Weapons are designed differently, so a straight up damage boost won't work.

 

Let's take an example: Grakata and Braton. We want to bump them both to Soma tier.

 

Problem is, Grakata's a crit and status gun, while Braton's just got damage.

 

So let's say we've decided on 15k sustained DPS as our target. Giving Braton 15k DPS is straightforward. Just buff its damage such that it does 15k DPS.

 

But Grakata? Giving it the same amount of damage buff will either make it OP compared to Braton (ie if you give tier potatos an additive damage buff), or UP compared to Braton (if you give tier potatos a multiplicative one), due to the fact that each gun's base IPS is different. The issue being that Grakata makes up for its lackluster damage vis a vis Braton via status (can't be quantified with DPS very easily) and crit (which can be.)

 

So what this means is... You've got to go through and balance a tier potato for each and every gun. Or make multiple types of tier potatos (ie +crit potato, +dam potato, etc), which only increases the balance workload. Scott has enough trouble balancing what we have now in a timely fashion. We all know about how warm coat exists and the +status mods are still garbage even after almost a year. Any suggestion for rebalancing things really needs to take this into account.

 

Your heart is in the right place - there's a lot of guns that look cool but fail to perform so they don't get used. But neither of your solutions are really practical.

 

Here's an alternative idea:

 

Weapon molds. Make it a craftable item similar to kubrow genetic templates. Or, hell, make it like potatos. Equip the gun you want the aesthetics of, "clone" it with the weapon mold, then you get an option in your skins menu to make any gun with similar characteristics look like the gun you cloned visually. (Also sound/animation wise).

 

So, say, you really like the look of the karak. So you clone it, and then you get a karak skin which you can apply to all automatic hitscan rifles like Braton, Soma, etc without changing stats.

 

This way you avoid all the balance issues and don't waste the art team's hard work on mastery fodder weapons. Plus, it also encourages players to get mastery fodder weapons for something other than mastery fodder. If they like the looks, they'll want to make a mold of it, so they have another incentive to get guns in addition to MR.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[ThePresident777]

What is the incentive to slot and potatoe a gun if you can transfer the best part of it to another weapon?  If it's not strictly aesthetic, then it fits Warframe's business model, if the transfer can be made convenient.  If it is strictly aesthetic, then it fits Warframe's business model, if it can only be obtained for plat.  Reward items can be the exception.

 

I think we can all agree that there are weapons that easily fit into a Weapon Tier Potatoe system.  If the system has merit then you have to question the merit of weapons that do not fit the system.  I'm sure we can all think of weapons that do not belong in one game or another, but, could with adjustments.

 

Let's remember that DE has done a number of overhauls to Warframe that did not expand it's convenience model.  Certainly, one that does would be worth their time, yes?