With The Possibility Of New Sword And Shield Weapons In The Future, I Propose We Try To Reach A Consensus On What We Feel They Should Function Like.

[Sasquatchias]

Now this might be something totally ignored by the Devs, but I figured it couldn't hurt to make a thread like this. 

 

As we all know there was major disappointment with the first SnS weapon we have - the Silva and Aegis. The low damage, increased stamina drain from blocking, and lack of shield bashing disappointed many people, myself included. 

 

So to try and prevent this from happening again, I propose that we, the community (or at least those with an interest in this that browse the forums) try to voice our thoughts on what we potentially want the Sword and Shield class of weapons to be - from mechanics to general gameplay differences from other weapon types in the hopes that DE sees our thoughts and perhaps implements a few of them into the class.  

 

To start us off I will post my general thoughts on how I think the class should generally be like - 

 

1. Blocking should cover a greater part of our body and block more damage from coming through, but should also have a lower stamina drain compared to weapons that don't utilize shields as well.

 

2. Damage should generally be in the middle of all other weapons - instead of overwhelming power this weapon class should trade power for more defense.

 

3. This weapon class should incorporate a mix of shield bashes and regular swings in it's combos and "default combo", with shield bashes staggering/stunning enemies. 

 

These are just general things I wish to see incorporated in the class as whole, and I am sure many others have different ideas as to how they feel the class should work. 

 

Please try to keep the discussion civil.

[Kthal]

The biggest issue with the Silva and Aegis is that, in terms of gameplay, it is just another weakish melee weapon. It has no unique shield functions whatsoever, almost the opposite considering the stamina drain.

 

Basically anything would do. Personally I'd want a hold-melee to shield bash function, reusing the Glaive/Redeemer throw charge mechanic, as well as some unique blocking buffs, suck as innate Reflection or free infinite blocking.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Kthal

[TheErebus.]

I do agree with your two last points, but the 1st one I don't agree with. I think that it should have a large amount of stamina decreased or at the very least a sizable portion of it taken away. Because you are basically taking away any form of damage that you would've been dealt which is a very powerful form of defense. So there needs to be a balance between the two.

[Sasquatchias]

I do agree with your two last points, but the 1st one I don't agree with. I think that it should have a large amount of stamina decreased or at the very least a sizable portion of it taken away. Because you are basically taking away any form of damage that you would've been dealt which is a very powerful form of defense. So there needs to be a balance between the two.

 

What about having it block the same amount of damage of other weapons but having decreased stamina drain? 

 

The reason I push for decreased stamina drain is because I feel that something utilizing a defensive component (the shield) should be better at defense than something that isn't (every other weapon). I mean even blocking with a whip is better than blocking with the Aegis.

[Xeo_Nespydonum]

A SnS should be able to block much easier than a dagger...  if swinging a dagger around to parry bullets only takes that much stamina then simply holding up a shield should give nearly unnoticeable stamina drain unless hit by a heavy weapons round such as a rocket or sniper bullet or a melee weapon.

[TheErebus.]

What about having it block the same amount of damage of other weapons but having decreased stamina drain? 

 

The reason I push for decreased stamina drain is because I feel that something utilizing a defensive component (the shield) should be better at defense than something that isn't (every other weapon). I mean even blocking with a whip is better than blocking with the Aegis.

Here's the thing, in a game like Dark Souls which uses shield's constantly you drain stamina when you get hit. The amount that is drained depends on the stability of the shield. But since we can't have stability stats in our shields, I think the damage that is being inflicted is good enough to tell how much should be drained.

[Genji]

 

 

1. Blocking should cover a greater part of our body and block more damage from coming through, but should also have a lower stamina drain compared to weapons that don't utilize shields as well.

 

 

 

 

This... The blocking ability & innate deflection should be added to the existing Silva & Aegis as well as future variations. 

[Entari0]

in terms of the "blocking should take less/more stamina" debate, i feel it depends on the animation, and the shield itself. if you are waving a small shield around to catch all the bullets ever, it should take more, but if you are using a tower shield that you just plant on the ground, it should take a negligible amount of stamina.

[Deviantis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Silva is better at blocking than other weapons, but I can't find any reliable information.

Deflecting bullets and blocking bullets are completely different. Stopping a bullet requires you to counter it with an equal or greater force. Deflecting it (what other weapons technically do) takes less than an equal amount to divert the flight path.

Think of why tanks have sloped armor.

That said, a fair tradeoff, if it isn't already implemented, is that shields should be nullifying projectile damage at 100% rate with a higher stamina cost as opposed to other weapons that deflect bullets at a lower chance for less stamina, which seems fair to me.

However, damage-wise...it's pretty hopeless, which is OK for me in some situations.

[VKhaun]

Blocking Better (???): No.
Blocking is fine. Does not need a buff, other stuff does not need a nerf.

 

Blocking Easier (more area/arc): No. 

The arc is fine and doesn't need a buff, the other weapons don't need a nerf..

 

Blocking Cheaper (lower stamina drain): Yes x1,000

This seems really obvious to me. No one is asking for free blocking or infinite blocking, just better than regular weapons which are overwhelmed very quickly. if it already does "better" it's not enough and needs another bump IMO.

TheErebus points out Dark Souls stability and I think that was a very good balance mechanic. I would love to see that be a stat on melee weapons and have new mods that affect it. People who don't value the mods would still get the transparency of knowing which weapons were good / bad / horrible at blocking.

 

Parry Better: Maybe

I could go either way here.

 

Realism-wise it would not make sense. People used big heavy shields because it was easy to block/deflect lots of force with but they don't transfer that to a counter attack worth a damn. Daggers should have better base parry. Dual weapons should have better base parry. Shields and fists should have abysmal parry.

 

HOWEVER... gameplay-wise it would make a ton of sense, as people pull this out to be and play defensive. I bet if you could look around at people's builds you'd see the Parry mod on more Silva Aegis' than anything else (not counting non-forma non-potato weapons with D's?) just because it fits the way they use it. In the video game logic sense they go to dual weapons and daggers to do rogue DPS and expect fast hits, DoT's and sneak attack bonuses.

Edited December 14, 2014 by VKhaun

[DeadlyBard676]

well realistically(yes i know this is a game but bare with me) blocking with a shield takes more stamina than with a sword or staff as when you block with a sword you angle the weapon for the enemies one to deflect off it so your weapon takes the least amount of force so it doesn't get seriously damaged or break, while a shield is used to take the full brunt of the attack. wearing a shield similar to how the aegis is held and bracing your self helps absorb the impact, but the more the shield is hit the faster it causes your arm to tired their for making it harder and harder to full defend against the enemy.

 

So i think a shield and sword weapon should have a block that completely mitigated damage at a slightly higher stamina drain. and not be able to deflect bullets, but have a special ability due to the damage type of the hold weapon. Example Silva and Aegis should melt the bullets and add the damage to the weapon or have a meter that builds as it blocks damage that releases a fire AoE burst when the meter becomes full.

 

well thats all i have to say, thank you.

[Thural]

You people, I just, can't.  You're saying that standing completely still and bracing a shield, composed mostly of a plasma, with your entire forearm is more tiring than wildly swinging around two foot and a half long steel blades, being braced only by your wrist.  I'm out, I'm done, I give up!

[[DE]Momaw]

So to try and prevent this from happening again, I propose that we, the community (or at least those with an interest in this that browse the forums) try to voice our thoughts on what we potentially want the Sword and Shield class of weapons to be - from mechanics to general gameplay differences

 

 

Already did this in April, before the sword and board was actually released.

1.) The weapon

Should be relatively weak. The purpose of using sword and shield is DEFENSE. The cost of increasing your survivability should be lower damage potential.  I am not saying weak to the point of being pointless, but it should not be any better than the existing 1-handed swords i.e. about 35-40 damage with moderate reach and speed.

 

2.) The shield

Should reduce incoming damage while wielded, by adding a multiplier to the frame's armor rating.  Also reduces the stamina cost of blocking attacks.

 

3.) Quick attacks

Should use only the sword.   To get the special benefits of sword and shield, you must actually switch to melee to equip the shield.

 

4.) Combos

Many of the combos we have now are overly complicated and much too hard to apply in actual battle.  For the sword and shield, I propose:

 

a.) Attack, attack, attack

Left slash, right slash, then a chest high stab with a step forward.

 

b.) Block + attack, hold attack

Bashes with your shield (guaranteed Impact proc), then a powerful overhead chop with a high chance of hitting target's head

 

c.) Hold block, tap forward twice

Bull rush with your shield held in front of you.  Minor damage, knocks down enemies you hit.

 

tl;dr  Using sword and shield should allow significant defensive benefits while being fluid and intuitive with short combos that emphasize use of the shield.

[Kruglov]

The shields should passively deflect/reduce damage at all times when the weapon is out BUT ONLY if the shield itself is hit with damage.

Make it function like a real shield and not just a sword accessory.

 

Even having it put away should have it protect your back a bit.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kruglov

[CandyHunter]

The shields should passively deflect/reduce damage at all times when the weapon is out BUT ONLY if the shield itself is hit with damage.

Make it function like a real shield and not just a sword accessory.

 

Even having it put away should have it protect your back a bit.

I think Kruglov have a point the shield should block bullets if it was hit even if it was on the back and I think that it should have a decreased stamina consume when you block, but I see the silva and aegis of a defensive melee weapon not so much as a offence weapon, with that said I would love to see when you use the shield and the bullets hits the shield then the bullets get a fire bonus dmg and the mods on the melee weapon should raise that dmg, of course there have to be a balance so the fire dmg dosn't gets exreme like 5000 or so but dmg that you can see will make a difference in the fight, and then the sword would be longer as it goes up in lvl and gets longer range, because it looks little pathetic running around with an awesome shield and then the sword is more like a kitchen knife...

[Innocent_Flower]

Shield weapons (I don't wanna say sword and shield, because I wanna see maces, clubs, axes, flails, whips etc) 

 

Firstly; He's not holding the shield properly. IRL shields aren't strapped to the forarm; But stratping the shield to the forarm might be better in a gun age, so I don't know. 

 

Anyhow. The sword and shield, as a weapon, should primarily be defensive. 

 

-The shield should have it's own hitbox that negates damage to you, even if you're not actively blocking.

- Shield should cover your front when you zoom in with pistol/rifle.  Though extending only occurs with one handed pistols/select primaries. 

- Shields should have a stun combo. 
- higher reflect chance. 

-Good chance to ignore status effects and knockdown. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Ronyn]

A shield should be inherently better at blocking in some way. Period.