Why Scattered Justice Was A Step In The Wrong Direction

[Boondorl]

Welp, it's that time of the year. DE has announced they're buffing shotguns, and with Point Blank Primed coming out, now is a great time to discuss shotgun balance so DE has an idea of how to balance them. Already we have a few topics, but what's worrisome is none seem to address the real problems with the shotguns in this game.

 

The fact is, a majority of shotguns don't need a damage buff. Most have perfectly fitting base damage.

 

If we compare the Hek to the Braton Prime, both high tier weapons for their classes, Hek does about 2/3 the damage of a Braton Prime shot per pellet. This is actually incredibly strong and fits well with the rest of the rifle class. So, what is it that's wrong with them then?

 

Shotgun mechanics themselves aren't good and their mods don't scale well.

 

If you've ever used the shotguns for a while, you'll know they simply aren't that fun to use. Their range is bad, their spread scales way too high, and you feel like there's a lack of considerable CC. Most have small magazines with long reloads, others have few pellets, and some straight up lack damage. I've made multiple threads about shotguns, but I'm going to consider this my big one: the end all be all of my opinion on shotguns. In order to make them more fun, they need a complete mechanical overhaul. To put this shortly, we're going to copy Killing Floor.

 

If you've ever played Killing Floor, you'll know how satisfying the shotguns are. There's nothing like pumping a bunch of buckshot into a crowd of Zeds with an AA-12. So, why is this game so lacking in that department? Why does it not feel satisfying?

 

Some shotguns have low damage. I think Boar Prime is the biggest example of this. People have turned to proc builds because they've found going straight damage just doesn't work. I find this odd given the random nature of procs making any sustained DPS hard. Not to mention Blast Boar P is common, meaning most people use it for the knockdown only. Boar, Boar P, and to a minor degree Sobek could all use higher damage. I'm also going to say Tigris needs higher damage, but we'll talk about that later on.

 

Damage types needs to be evened out. It seems a lot of the shotguns fall towards Impact, largely the most useless of the three damage types. The other smaller chunk seems to fall into Slash. There's currently only one Puncture shotgun in the game. All the shotguns need to have their damage more evened out so they can reliably take on all the factions, especially considering we have far fewer shotguns available than rifles.

 

All shotguns are magazine fed. This becomes a problem when you're using something like the Hek and Strun. Both are very punishing as they have small magazines and long reload times. They need to be switched out to a chamber reload system so that both can be reloaded quickly after firing only a few shots and so you can also break the reload animation.

 

Fall off makes them way too punishing at mid and long ranges. While I get shotguns aren't meant for long ranges, this is the worst possible way to fix it IMO. Shotguns should be swapped out to a projectile system and have all fall off removed. This would make hitting things at range harder as you would now have to aim and predict enemy movements.

 

Spread needs to be tweaked. I find it weird that my pellets seem to be half way across the room from each other at 30m. Spread needs to be toned down slightly but kept infinite to make hitting things at medium range easier but kept difficult at long ranges (especially combined with a projectile system). On the contrary, some shotguns need their spread increased. Hek is way too accurate for a shotgun, and makes it start to blend in with the rifle class.

 

Reload times need to be tweaked. Some of the reload times are too punishing. Shotguns like the Boar (regular) and Tigris could use to have their reload speeds brought down.

 

Pellet mechanics with proc and crit are weird. I always love it when a single pellet procs a Slash proc, only to find it ticking away at the enemy health for only 3 damage. When a single pellet crits or procs, all pellets should be made to follow suit. Lower proc chance slightly, but bring it back to per pellet. The idea behind shotguns should not be to try and land every pellet (this statement is important). Otherwise, you just end up with rifles with poor range.

 

Lack of visual recoil and good sounds. This one has a huge impact on how shotguns feel as a whole. They need to be given some beefier sounds and more visual recoil (your character's reaction to shots) to make them feel more powerful. Hek is a great example of how a shotgun should feel in that regard.

 

Lack of punch through. This one is pretty self explanatory. Due to their smaller magazines and lower ammo pool, shotguns need some compensation. Punch through allows each shot to give more bang for its buck while giving greater CC, enforcing the shotguns' role as CC machines.

 

Some shotguns lack pellets. Generally, we should be sitting at 6-10 pellets for every shotgun. Sobek and Tigris both fall flat on their faces in this regard. Both only fire a whopping 4 pellets at base. This means if you miss even one, you're down 1/4 of your damage. That's huge. Tigris should be brought up to 10 pellets (and have its damage buffed to 300 as a result) and Sobek up to 6 or 7 pellets so it doesn't fall far behind the Boar.

 

And lastly, we get back to our title. I haven't really mentioned it, have I? You would think it'd be important, I did put it in the title after all. Scattered Justice is great, and it makes the Hek viable again! How could it possibly be a step in the wrong direction?

 

Shotguns should not rely on adding more pellets for more damage. Remember that important statement I said earlier? Yeah, more multishot for shotguns completely destroys any and all purpose for the shotgun class as a whole. In order to get any extra damage off from Hell's Chamber and Scattered Justice, you must land more pellets. Being forced to land more pellets makes the shotguns nothing but over-glorified rifles. The entire point of shotguns is they're meant for taking out crowds. Ideally, you only want a few pellets to hit each target, yet due to how accurate weapons like the Hek and Tigris are, you're actually punished for trying to hit large crowds. This is the nail in the coffin for shotguns: this is why rifles out class them in every single way. Combining the rifles with punch through, you pretty much have no reason to use a shotgun anymore when that rifle achieves the same thing. This is why Scattered Justice was truly a step in the wrong direction. Shotguns are not meant to rely on accuracy, yet DE keeps pumping out shotguns that have it built-in and mods that require it.

 

So, what are the solutions to the major problems here? Also, what about the mods? Well, I've gone over some of them in the problems themselves as they're easier to solve, but this next one requires quite a change.

 

Remove multishot mods from shotguns. Buff the base damage mods. Currently, shotguns have three base damage mods, all of which are quite insignificant. Riles only have two base damage mods yet give greater damage than all three shotgun mods combined, but also have a multishot on top of that. If multishot were removed from shotguns and the three base damage mods buffed, we'd largely end up in a better place for shotguns.

 

Point Blank: I'm not sure why Point Blank Primed is coming. It's better than what we have, but the base one should've been this in the first place. Since Point Blank gives less then Serration, what we have is rifles growing closer to shotgun level damage, thus making shotguns fall behind. Make this baby 10 ranks by default and scale up to +165% damage like Serration.

 

Vicious Spread: Same thing. Make it 10 ranks, reduce +spread to only 5% per rank, maxing at +55%. Since shotguns will no longer achieve asinine things like 20+ pellets, this now is an actual penalty, much like it is with the rifles.

 

Blaze: Reduce the base cost to 4, make it 10 ranks. This way we get yet another +165% damage to make up for the lack of multishot we have now. The fire damage on it is annoying as is because it forces you to either run a combo + basic or two combos. Modding for Corpus is annoying with it.

 

Currently, it costs 42 to put on all three mods + Hell's Chamber. Removing Hell's Chamber and buffing all three to cost 14 at max each gives us the same exact amount, so nothing changes.

 

The other upside of static pellet counts is it also helps balance for range. Even with projectiles and spread, you can only do so much to balance for it when you're firing 20 pellets. Locking each shotgun down to 6-10 pellets makes longer range engagements more static, and helps secure the idea of shotguns being short range weapons.

 

Better crit chance and damage mods. I don't quite understand the point of Primed Ravage. It serves absolutely nothing because the base scaling was bad to begin with, and Blunderbuss isn't helping. Remove Primed Ravage and bring both these mods up to scale with the rifle versions.

 

Remove punch through mods from the game. This one is probably going to start the biggest sh!tstorm, but honestly, if we want snipers and shotguns to be unique, you have to remove punch through from all the other weapons. 5m of punch through on a Lanka means nothing when it's so easy to get 1.2m on my rifle for a measly 11 points plus extra firerate! Making it so only the snipers and shotguns have access to punch through will give them a massive edge over the rifles and LMGs (I'm aware bows exist, but that's a different discussion).

 

There are other mods that need to be made useful, but that applies to all the weapons mainly. For now, we'll skip these.

 

So, let's get a recap of what needs changing:

 

Shotguns:

-A few need their base damage buffed.

-Damage types need to be evened out.

-Some need to be moved to a chamber fed system.

-Fall off needs to be removed and swapped out for projectiles.

-A majority of shotguns need their spread reduced, accurate ones need their spread increased.

-A few have long reload times.

-Crit and proc mechanics need an overhaul.

-Need more visual recoil and better sounds.

-Need innate punch through.

-A few need more pellets.

-Should not rely on adding more pellets for better damage.

 

Mods:

-Remove multishot from shotguns; buff the three current base damage mods.

-Buff crit chance and damage mods.

-Remove punch through mods for all classes.

 

This is a lot to take in, but I honestly feel this is what will put shotguns in a much better place. Not requiring multishot and being the only weapon class to have punch through will give them a unique advantage that rifles and LMGs cannot compare to. With the ability to scale higher than rifles as well, getting in close to kill the big enemies like Level 40+ Eximus Heavy Gunners will be more rewarding.

 

Shotguns do need a buff. In fact, they need a complete mechanical overhaul. Things like Scattered Justice are not the direction we should be taking to fix shotguns.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Boondorl

[Axeroix]

Thank u

also I'd say the only Shotgun that needs a Damage buff is the Wraith

It does less damage than the normal Strun after all

[--Q--Ascended-Seraphim]

We need more gibbing.

this is one of those games where firing a shot gun has visuals akin to swatting an enemy with a baseball bat with them flying over the horizon in one piece.

It's Warframe not Animeframe or Looytunes Frame dang it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by --Q--Ascended-Seraphim

[Boondorl]

also I'd say the only Shotgun that needs a Damage buff is the Wraith

It does less damage than the normal Strun after all

 

This bothers me as well. I'd like to see it put up to at least 160 damage to keep it on par with the regular Strun. The magazine, proc, and reload speed buff are more than enough to make it far better than its basic counterpart.

[Draciusen]

The only thing I disagree on is punch-through, you don't make a weapon class better by nerfing all the other ones.

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

i this dis. +1

[Innocent_Flower]

Lovely post. BUT

 

 

Change blaze. Fire damage? But I don't wanna fire damage! It screws with my element combos. Make blaze give... status chance or something. 

 

 

Punch through for every shotgun? Interesting. But I think a few would work better with ragdoll

[Boondorl]

The only thing I disagree on is punch-through, you don't make a weapon class better by nerfing all the other ones.

 

Fair point, but maybe we have to look at the fact that punch through for rifles and LMGs is too strong to begin with. Given the rifles either have large magazines or are incredibly ammo efficient, being able to put punch through on them pushes them over the edge. As I also said, it makes using punch through for snipers and shotguns a bad exclusive as any weapon can already achieve those.

 

Punch through for every shotgun? Interesting. But I think a few would work better with ragdoll

 

IIRC, the Hek used to be able to ragdoll enemies. I don't believe you could actually hurt anyone with the bodies (maybe knock others down), but it was funny blowing someone halfway across the room.

[StoneBrigand]

I think I agree with everything except the proposed change making shotguns projectile and not hitscan. Also, I think the total ammo pool for shotguns should be increased to maybe 240.

[Cyberspace100]

 

Shotguns:

-A few need their base damage buffed.

-Damage types need to be evened out.

-Some need to be moved to a chamber fed system.

-Fall off needs to be removed and swapped out for projectiles.

-A majority of shotguns need their spread reduced, accurate ones need their spread increased.

-A few have long reload times.

-Crit and proc mechanics need an overhaul.

-Need more visual recoil and better sounds.

-Need innate punch through.

-A few need more pellets.

-Should not rely on adding more pellets for better damage.

 

Mods:

-Remove multishot from shotguns; buff the three current base damage mods.

-Buff crit chance and damage mods.

-Remove punch through mods for all classes.

 

This is a lot to take in, but I honestly feel this is what will put shotguns in a much better place. Not requiring multishot and being the only weapon class to have punch through will give them a unique advantage that rifles and LMGs cannot compare to. With the ability to scale higher than rifles as well, getting in close to kill the big enemies like Level 40+ Eximus Heavy Gunners will be more rewarding.

 

Shotguns do need a buff. In fact, they need a complete mechanical overhaul. Things like Scattered Justice are not the direction we should be taking to fix shotguns.

 

I agree with most of your points BUT the one where you said no multi shot and resuced accuracy on the hek. IMO shotguns should have no damage fall off and a minimum of 10 pellets, their accuracy should be low but not so low that you cant hit anything past 20m. The reason the damage mods for shotguns are so low is because shotguns have more base damage, even with serration and heavy cal you dont see rifles doing 8000 damage per shot do you. 

 

No damage fall off

Reduce accuracy.

Double the magazine size for hek, tigris and sobek

increase fire rate for hek, tigris, sobek

make shotgun mods more common.

 

Plus all the changes you said and shotguns should be right as rain.

[Cyberspace100]

Fair point, but maybe we have to look at the fact that punch through for rifles and LMGs is too strong to begin with. Given the rifles either have large magazines or are incredibly ammo efficient, being able to put punch through on them pushes them over the edge. As I also said, it makes using punch through for snipers and shotguns a bad exclusive as any weapon can already achieve those.

 

 

IIRC, the Hek used to be able to ragdoll enemies. I don't believe you could actually hurt anyone with the bodies (maybe knock others down), but it was funny blowing someone halfway across the room.

I think all sniper rifles are gtting puch through and "dead aim" (every scoped shot adds more damage), this is their mechanic, not punch through.

[Cyberspace100]

I think I agree with everything except the proposed change making shotguns projectile and not hitscan. Also, I think the total ammo pool for shotguns should be increased to maybe 240.

I'd rather have a projectile weapon than damage fall off after 10m

[Boondorl]

The reason the damage mods for shotguns are so low is because shotguns have more base damage, even with serration and heavy cal you dont see rifles doing 8000 damage per shot do you. 

 

As a quick note, only the Hek can currently achieve that level of damage, and you need Scattered Justice to do that.

 

I understand this is the reason DE did what they did, but it's actually a logical fallacy. Rifles do less damage, but have larger magazines and faster firerates to make up for it, not to mention better accuracy and the fact that all their damage is condensed into a single shot. This leads to much better sustained DPS. A good general rule is to have each pellet doing about 2/3 the damage of a rifle bullet (assuming we're talking the powerful, slow shotguns like Hek).

 

Hek does 175 damage across 7 pellets. That's a base of 25 damage/pellet. Braton Prime does 35 damage. This puts each pellet at ~71% damage of a Braton P bullet, which is close to our 2/3. However, putting on the shotgun mods gives the Hek 85 (+240%) damage/pellet, with Braton Prime doing 150.5 (+330%) damage. This is only ~56% of a Braton P bullet, which is near half. As you can see, the more this trend continues, the larger the gap becomes. There's also the fact that some pellets aren't going to hit, meaning you'll usually lose out around 20% of your damage unless you're at point blank range.

 

This is why shotguns seem like they have bad scaling. Because they do.

[taiiat]

in principle, i want to agree. however.

 

Shotguns in general have odd Accuracy if you ask me. they aren't Accurate enough to hit things reliably at Medium Range, but they're too Accurate to really spray a group.

simultaneously too accurate, and not accurate enough.

i don't think Hek is too Accurate. it's a Shotgun built specifically for Medium Range combat. that's what it exists for. single target maximum Damage per Ammunition.

 

i like Shotgun Multishot. who doesn't? Shotguns are all about having a cloud of steel flying out of your gun.

so i can't subjectively say we shouldn't have Multishot on shotguns. because m0ar pellets is good fun.

 

i don't think making Blaze and Point Blank that high is entirely necessary. i think i'd prefer if Blaze was 90%, and both Vicious Spread and Point Blank were 120%. since we have a Legendary version of Point Blank coming... i guess that adds the bit more Damage that they'll need to have a Damage role. at Close Range anyways.

 

i don't think it's a good idea to remove Piercing Mods.

the advantage isn't having it at all, it's having it innately, meaning you don't need a Mod Slot for it. since there's limited Mod Slots this is a considerable advantage.

 

 

 

i think i entirely agree with every other point though. definitely want to be able to Reload single shells at a time. it's a common way to use Shotguns in War scenarios(reloading just one or two Shells at a time and pushing on again), and it's also a satisfying thought of being able to Reload one Shell and keep firing 'forever', however at a lower RPM than i would be if i had the time to fill up the tube.

that adds some great Ammunition juggling flexibility. either keep up some Damage at a lower RoF, or pull out of Combat for a few seconds to fill the tube and get a lot of Burst Damage.

 

Crit and Status Mods being made better isn't all we need. Crit and Status Chances that are displayed should be per Pellet. they shoot slower and generally apply less of their potential Damage on target than other Archetypes (running up to every single Enemy to get into facehugging Range to not waste Pellets isn't really practical in Warframe), and Shotguns are 'powerhouse' types of Weapons. having fairly good Status would make them feel much more rewarding to fire. making shots have Effect, even if it's at the point where it doesn't kill them, it had good effect anyways.

i also saw some suggestion to have Crit Stats increased within N Range. i like that. incentivizing getting close, but not requiring it.

 

not to mention that Shotgun Status has horrendous math due to viewed number divided by pellets, and a couple other things. just make it viewed number per Pellet. period. there won't be Balance concerns, there's Weapons in other Archetypes that spray Status everywhere already. Shotguns won't be doing that anywhere near as well. it'll mostly be making each shot into an Enemy feel more satisfying.

 

removing Falloff is a probable solution to that issue. as it would either be that or making falloff start somewhere around 35m and end around 80m, with the minimum Damage being somewhere in the area of 30-50% of the total Damage, rather than <5%.

If you've ever played Killing Floor, you'll know how satisfying the shotguns are. There's nothing like pumping a bunch of buckshot into a crowd of Zeds with an AA-12. So, why is this game so lacking in that department? Why does it not feel satisfying?

personally, i find the AA-12 not that interesting. it's kind've interesting if i use it on Semi, to pick targets. but ultimately it was never my thing really. low Pellet count and designed more for Magdumping, when i don't like Magdumping. just not my kind of Shotgun.

my Shotgun of choice is always the KSG, Winchester 1897, Nail Shotgun. those are the ones that feel the most satisfying and enjoyable to use for me. the 10 Gauge two barrel is also nice, ofcourse. everyone likes that one.

 

It does less damage than the normal Strun after all

Strun Wraith is one of two Shotguns that currently is capable of useful Status.

 

if increasing Damage won't affect Status capability, then go right ahead.

[DSpite]

"The entire point of shotguns is they're meant for taking out crowds"

 

I think you will find that's wrong. Scatterguns are meant to take out long distance fast moving birds because, well, try that with a rifle, and also, where will that bullet travel to? CQB combat with modern shotguns is done because with 00 shells, at correct range, it's basically the equivalent of firing 9 separate pistol rounds at the target simultaneously, and probably hitting with most of them.

 

The intimidation factor in real life is also why they are used. Most people have no idea what shells people might be using in what is been pointed at them. You could run away, and a bird shot shell from someone who can't aim well will still reach you at very long ranges and leave very unpleasant wounds.

 

"Remove punch through mods from the game."

 

Because you really really like shotguns? Not happening. Like, ever. If you seriously think DE will remove punch-trough from things like the Lanka, you are hallucinating.

Edited December 23, 2014 by DSpite

[RealPandemonium]

>boar prime has low damage

 

>huge dps

 

what?

Edited December 23, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[akira_him]

>boar prime has low damage

 

>huge dps

 

what?

It has fxxking high fire rate

[fatpig84]

Remove fall off

Then put punch through on your shotguns

You are guaranteed to flak your enemies to pieces.

[painterman]

Really nice post but i have to disagree on the puchthroug and the multishot, and here is why:

 

The punchthroug is really nice on almost any weapon but its a sacrifice you trade dmg for versatility, and for me thats a fair tradeoff, even more, all "utillity" mods should offer someting close. I would say that shotguns like tigris and hek( maybe another too) should have an innate 1-2 meters punchthroug, just because because i think they should pack enough raw dmg to blast throug enemys. Also this would be a compensation for their low mazine and firerate at base.

 

On the multishot i would say do not remove it, because i think its a core element of the shotguns itself. All shotguns should have at least 6-7 pellets, the harder-hiting, meant for single target (hek, for example) should have 6-8 and with multishot not going over 20~ and the designed for cc(boar p and so on) have 15 at base and no more than 40 fully moded. Righ now the boar p with multishot and +dmg/+spread mod have a WHIDE cone, so whide that hitting someting past 10 meters its almost a dream. Buffing the pellet count would scatter even more the dmg but would alow them to hit more efficiently large crows, and force you to choose: i go with a base spread, full dmg build, or with whide spread and punchthroug for large crows and status or i go with tainted shield and raw dmg for full auto, single target fun?. On the already single target shotguns increasing the spread combined with the multishot would alow something similar to the boar p but not as efficient and the same would happen on the boar p with tainted shel, someting similar to the base hek, but not as efficient.

 

Alwais remember, this are my thougs and sorry for not including a tldr and for the bad english :P

[AlienOvermind]

Now, that's a nice shotgun feedback. I especially approve suggestions about QoL changes — reload speed. magazine capacities, chamber reload system.

 

But also there's one thing that I strongly disagree:

Remove multishot mods from shotguns. Buff the base damage mods.

I would agree on this, if you were talking about other guns. Multishot is weird mechanics, that doesn't make any sense most of the time — like firing two arrows in one draw or firing two bullets from one barrel exatly at the same time. I mean, really? Sounds like nonsense. But. Shotguns are another story. Shotguns are meant to shoot several projectiles at once. So, it actually make sense to have a mod, that increases pellet count.

Overall, I would deal with multishot like this:

- remove multishot from rifles, bows and non-shotguns pistols;

- (optional) increase effects of base damage mods for weapons that lost multishot, so we won't get "you don't make a weapon class better by nerfing all the other ones";

- leave shotguns multishots untouched.

[Davoodoo]

Problem with shotguns is pretty simple, if you need single bullet from anything to kill any enemy then whats the point of using slow single fire weapon over rapid fire one?? none

Edited December 23, 2014 by Davoodoo

[RiouHotaru]

The reason why Point Blank has such a low damage modifier compared to Serration or Hornet strike is that the damage bonus is applied to every pellet.  Assuming most of the pellets nail the target the burst damage is huge.

 

That's why Primed Point Blank is so ridiculous.

[painterman]

The reason why Point Blank has such a low damage modifier compared to Serration or Hornet strike is that the damage bonus is applied to every pellet.  Assuming most of the pellets nail the target the burst damage is huge.

 

That's why Primed Point Blank is so ridiculous.

With that logic also snipers are overpowered because they have much more base dmg and have +330% with 2 mods.