Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[Seanjuju]

Instance-of-damage caps on ordinary enemies are not acceptable since they alienate non-automatic weapons.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Althran]

Just a question.. You say this but.. Have you tested side by side a weapon fully modded and show many shots it takes compared to the same weapon without mods and see how long it takes?

Look at the .gifs mang

they may not be the same weapon unmodded but it doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and say that an unranked braton shouldn't be doing the same kind of work the vaykor marlok 2 forma'd and potatoed is doing.

 

And I honestly don't think that would accomplish anything.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Althran

[GeoffFromAccounting]

I feel this needs to be said again, since people keep throwing the adaptation argument around without knowing what it actually means

 

adaptation =/= making only a single loadout viable.

 

I shouldn't HAVE to use *Rhino P, Boltor/Soma P, Marelok/Brakk and whatever the "OP" melee weapon is* in order to kill ONE enemy, Snipers, Casters and other playstyles should be just as viable, not just using all the brokenly powerful weapons all the time.

 

*slight exaggeration

 

if I HAVE to use a high RoF weapon to kill a single enemy type that is not adaptation, that is a gear check and gear checks are neither fun nor challenging. There are ways to get people to adapt to different situations without resorting to gear checks

[Makya]

Look at the .gifs mang

they may not be the same weapon unmodded but it doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and say that an unranked braton shouldn't be doing the same kind of work the vaykor marlok 2 forma'd and potatoed is doing.

 

And I honestly don't think that would accomplish anything.

You are showing that damage matters (shot count) in the gifs of the braton and the marlok, but that the maximum number of shots is rather low (seemingly 30ish) compared to the min count (seems 10ish).

 

If damage did not matter then a Marlok should perform the same with being fully modded for damage and not modded for damage. I'm not sure how to make proper gifs myself, but I think I will  try to test it with my Lex Prime, comparing a modded one to one with only multi shot mods installed compared to a full suite. What did you record your's with?

[EvilChaosKnight]

 

She presses #4 and...

...dies. Because Mesa doesn't target things inside the Nullifier bubble from my field experience.

[Seanjuju]

You are showing that damage matters (shot count) in the gifs of the braton and the marlok, but that the maximum number of shots is rather low (seemingly 30ish) compared to the min count (seems 10ish).

 

If damage did not matter then a Marlok should perform the same with being fully modded for damage and not modded for damage. I'm not sure how to make proper gifs myself, but I think I will  try to test it with my Lex Prime, comparing a modded one to one with only multi shot mods installed compared to a full suite. What did you record your's with?

Multishot

[Makya]

Multishot

Simultaneous hits don't also count towards minimum shots according to change logs and wiki. I mentioned pistol multi shot because one of them increases firerate

[Althran]

You are showing that damage matters (shot count) in the gifs of the braton and the marlok, but that the maximum number of shots is rather low (seemingly 30ish) compared to the min count (seems 10ish).

 

If damage did not matter then a Marlok should perform the same with being fully modded for damage and not modded for damage. I'm not sure how to make proper gifs myself, but I think I will  try to test it with my Lex Prime, comparing a modded one to one with only multi shot mods installed compared to a full suite. What did you record your's with?

 

It's a really messy process.  

1. I record it with fraps.

2. I edit it with cyberlink power director (any editor will work, I just so happen to upload youtube videos so I prefer a higher quality editing program) and save it as an mp4

3. I use this neat video to .gif converter 

http://ezgif.com/video-to-gif

4. Download the .gif and upload it to imgur (this is important because it will not show if you use bb code with the image you get from .gif converter)

5. Use the BB code that imgur gives you for forums and post it, done.

 

But besides that, 20 damage (damage per shot of unranked braton) shouldn't affect nullifier's shields and yet it does, therefore one simply can not say that nullifier's shields are affected by damage.  I mean you could argue that they are slightly affected by damage, but to what extent?  I'm still getting the job done with an unranked weapon.  And a cruddy one at that.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Althran

[Makya]

But besides that, 20 damage (damage per shot of unranked braton) shouldn't affect nullifier's shields and yet it does, therefore one simply can not say that nullifier's shields are affected by damage.  I mean you could argue that they are slightly affected by damage, but to what extent?  I'm still getting the job done with an unranked weapon.  And a cruddy one at that.

Thank you. Beam weapons actually get it down faster with a slower firerate than the braton or the soma, which is odd.. I think there is something else going on with some of them.

[Althran]

Thank you. Beam weapons actually get it down faster with a slower firerate than the braton or the soma, which is odd.. I think there is something else going on with some of them.

 

Yup, exactly why I the shields should be HP based.  It'd just fix everything.

[Makya]

Yup, exactly why I the shields should be HP based.  It'd just fix everything.

Having punchthrough work like it works with frost shields would fix things better IMO, well.. snipers would need the bow buff or a limited Lanka buff (5meter+ innate punch through) I actually like that someone can't just DPS bull doze through it.. would like the max shot count increased from low 30s to 2x nullifier's current level.

[Taranis49]

Like I've said elsewhere, problem with enemies like Nullifiers is "gimmick overload" effectively throwing options in the trash while leaving very little in the way of viable, engaging options for counterplay in their stead... and it's a problem that's surfaced elsewhere in the enemy design.

 

As covered in the Extra Credits video "When Difficult is Fun" an engaging, fun challenge is one which allows the player the freedom to develop and use a range of novel, interesting solutions. It's why Shield Lancers are generally considered one of the best designed enemies in the game; immune to damage from the front? There's the option of accurate fire to hit areas not protected by the shield, flanking, jump-kicking, using an ability...

 

You get none of that with Nullifiers at T4, particularly if they're paired with ground-pounding Heavy Gunners or Bombards under the bubble (incidentally, I'm of the opinion that bare minimum, the bubble should disable enemy abilities too). Attempting melee/"sword alone" is a non-viable fail train with no brakes in that case, especially with a squishier frame.

 

Hell, enemies effectively forcing players to use specific weapons was the primary reason for the switch to Damage 2.0 to begin with, back in the dark days of "Go AI/AP or go home"... and I say that as one of those "Boltor/Soma P" users that most other old farts look down on. :-P

[DSkred]

Thank you. Beam weapons actually get it down faster with a slower firerate than the braton or the soma, which is odd.. I think there is something else going on with some of them.

 

You're right, beam weapons are much better at it. I believe it has to do with how they deal damage. I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think they changed it a long time ago to where beam weapons deal damage in clusters of hits which add up to the damage seen on the stat screen. If this is true, then it might be that beam weapons are effective at stripping the shield by firing an overwhelming amount of hits at a given time.

 

In any case, it is a good time to grab a Synoid Gammacor, and use it as a cudgel against broken game design. Fight fire with fire.

[Makya]

In any case, it is a good time to grab a Synoid Gammacor, and use it as a cudgel against broken game design. Fight fire with fire.

Spectra modded for range gets you.. what 48 meters of beamage compared to the Gammacor's 20-25? It's a huge advantage if you also slap on punch through and get the shielders popped for your usual DPSers. You might not be the 'OMG DPS' but your team will love you as you negate a massive threat.

[DSkred]

Sure, but then again, the Synoid Gammacor is the finger of death, and all things living or otherwise will cease to exist within those 25 meters. Using a tanky frame like Valkyr, Trinity, etc. would allow you to close the gap easier. Even better, you could use Loki to take the shields down while invisible, and they won't target you since the Gammacor is a silent weapon.

[plznohurtme]

Also, let me make myself clear:  there should not be a 'minimum amount of shots' to break the shield.  It should be a health based shield.  As to why it should be a health based shield: because he already assumes the role of tank, support, and ability nullifier.  One unit should not assume all roles at once.

 

You are arguing that it needs to be changed to pure HP based which puts high rof weapons at a disadvantage whether you believe that to be true or not.  You want this shield to be identical to Heavies/Eximus/Eximus Shields which all have faster time to kill with low rof versus high rof.  Thus you're saying it's not fair for you to have a disadvantage, but it's totally fine for them.

 

I am arguing choice.  How in the hell is arguing for the ability to choose between single RoF weapons and High RoF weapons NOT ARGUING FOR F#$%#ING CHOICE?!?!?!  And another thing; I do this for other people, not just me.  I don't know how many times I have to say this, but for my sanity's sake, I'll say it one last time.

 

Nullifier's shields are clearly NOT affected by damage.  They're broken as of now, and if you don't believe me or the .gifs I have provided, then I honestly don't know what to tell you.  Because their shields aren't affected by damage, this makes low RoF guns almost completely useless against them and puts you in a position where you either use a High RoF to deal with the situation quickly or stick to what you love and risk the chance of being insta gibbed by their lanka all the while trying to whittle it down with your puny rate of fire and get absolutely destroyed by the bombards and heavy gunners that are firing at you while you're doing it.

 

Like talking to a friggin brick wall.  Jeeze.

 

Your examples clearly show it is effected by damage otherwise it would have taken an equal number of shots like it did when they were originally put in (when it really wasn't effected by damage).  It isn't effected enough by damage as has been said multiple times because there is a minimum number of shots and a maximum number of shots to kill the shields and those numbers can easily be changed.  You clearly do not grasp this concept at all and are stuck on them not being effected by damage when they obviously are... despite the fact that you claim to.  You think you're talking to a brick wall when you quite literally refuse to accept what you have proven.  

 

My stance the whole time has been that the current implementation is not fair and it needs to be adjusted, but the mechanic shouldn't be thrown out the window entirely because it doesn't need to.  You keep arguing about it needing to be HP based which puts the ball back in your court and makes them something you'll deal with in two shots just like Eximus with shields now.  It's clear that the idea behind nullifier's shield was to strike a balance between the two (pure hp and pure number of hits) and it is not well done yet, but that doesn't mean that they can't make it work.

 

You are unwilling to accept that there should be any disadvantage to your chosen play style despite the fact that there are for others.  I'm simply suggesting that it's possible for them to do it in a fair fashion which isn't any different than the time to kill differences between low rof and high rof weapons now against high hp/armored targets.

 

As I'm sure you and everyone else who has ever used low rof weapons knows that a good player with them can do as well if not better than anyone using fotm autos.  There isn't a single mechanic in the game that currently punishes this play style simply for existing while there are for autos (certain bosses, and to a smaller extent heavies/eximus since they have lower time to kill with low rof than high rof).  This is the first time DE has put something in that can slow it down and it isn't balanced properly... yet...

 

Thank you. Beam weapons actually get it down faster with a slower firerate than the braton or the soma, which is odd.. I think there is something else going on with some of them.

 

Any slow firing beam weapons hit for a ton more than autos do hence why they kill the shield faster.  Just like the Boltor Prime will kill the shield faster than Braton Prime or Soma Prime it hits for a lot more (again shields aren't effected by crits).  Synoid Gammacor for example is probably the best weapon in the game for taking down nullifier shields currently due to how hard it hits with a decent rof.  Also from the wiki which I wasn't aware of which may also be a reason why beam weapons seem better: 

• Continuous firing weapons, such as Synapse can still penetrate the nullifier sphere and damage the enemies inside; albeit with reduced damage.

 

Edit: Just wanted to add since I was bored and went into T4 Ext (fastest way to find nullifiers of the annoying sort) I took hek (no forma) with hell's chamber, point blank, blaze, scattered justice, seeking force, and toxic barrage rank 1 and it took 9 shots to get through the bubble and 1 to kill the nullifier.  I went back after that and I took the hek with no mods and after 20 shots I had to move or die to the bombard hanging out with the nullifier and my sentinel killed the shield, but it was maybe 2/3 down after 20 shots.  It definitely scales with damage there is no doubt, but since my hek wasn't hitting as hard as on a standard enemy and the examples in the op show 10 shots until kill with the marelok I'm guessing corrupted nullifiers have a 9 shot minimum (+1 to kill the nullifier) on shields, which is obviously stupid.  According to the wiki the regular ones are 6 minimum, 24 maximum and based off the testing it would appear that corrupted is 9 minimum, 36 maximum which would be a 50% increase over the regulars.  This is quite absurd to say the least and the minimums on both need to be dropped down (perhaps 2 for regular, 4 for corrupted) while leaving the maximums as is.

Edited December 29, 2014 by plznohurtme

[letir]

You are arguing that it needs to be changed to pure HP based which puts high rof weapons at a disadvantage whether you believe that to be true or not.  You want this shield to be identical to Heavies/Eximus/Eximus Shields which all have faster time to kill with low rof versus high rof.  Thus you're saying it's not fair for you to have a disadvantage, but it's totally fine for them.

Go and play in actual game, which named as "balanced part" from DE.

 

Most things up to 50+ lvl will die from 1-3 shots of Boltor Prime. Anyone can just swipe entire squad of heavies with this.

 

Charged shots from Opticor/Bow or sharpshooting with sniper rifle/Lex is simple overkill in most situations of this game. They aren't needed.

 

And don't even start talking about shostguns in this sittuation - it's high risk, low reward weapon with low ROF, low mag and long reload.

[Azawarau]

You are arguing that it needs to be changed to pure HP based which puts high rof weapons at a disadvantage whether you believe that to be true or not.  You want this shield to be identical to Heavies/Eximus/Eximus Shields which all have faster time to kill with low rof versus high rof.  Thus you're saying it's not fair for you to have a disadvantage, but it's totally fine for them.

The only disadvantage might be that they waste more ammo

 

And considering that high RoF weapons already rule the battlefield against hordes of enemies i dont see the issue here

[Liminal]

The point of games is to deal with what they throw at you and thrive. Not constantly find shortcuts. If you simply do that every time, maybe Tetris is what they should be playing.

No, the point is to have fun. If you try to find a shortcut it's the game's fault for failing to entertain you.

[EvilChaosKnight]

 

You are arguing that it needs to be changed to pure HP based which puts high rof weapons at a disadvantage whether you believe that to be true or not.  You want this shield to be identical to Heavies/Eximus/Eximus Shields which all have faster time to kill with low rof versus high rof.  Thus you're saying it's not fair for you to have a disadvantage, but it's totally fine for them.

 

It's not like Boltor Pr and Soma Pr have already got like the highest DPS in game with the lowest punishment for misses.

[Althran]

You are arguing that it needs to be changed to pure HP based which puts high rof weapons at a disadvantage whether you believe that to be true or not.  You want this shield to be identical to Heavies/Eximus/Eximus Shields which all have faster time to kill with low rof versus high rof.  Thus you're saying it's not fair for you to have a disadvantage, but it's totally fine for them.

Except for the fact that, you know, high RoF weapons still have the highest DPS in the game.  Therefore, it would not put them at a disadvantage.  Not in the slightest.  You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[Scyrrin]

EDIT: Decided to just *not* join this conversation. Nevermind.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Scyrrin

[Althran]

You wouldn't go into an infested mission carrying only magnetic damage, why go into void/corpus missions with only slow-fire weaponry? 

How many times man... 

 

Your example is also kinda bad -- at least you have the choice to choose between magnetic damage or corrosive or radation.

 

Why should I have to use a weapon that I just don't feel like using?  It takes the fun out of it for me.  If I want to be ash or loki and be real stealthy, well, I'm not going to bring boltor or soma or whatever the hell because it ISN'T STEALTHY.

 

Look, I don't hate soma or boltor.  I use them every once in a while, sort of as my "f$%#s are about to be given" loadout.  But I mean, if an enemy requires me to bring a high RoF weapon it takes the choice out of it.  Now instead of me deciding whether or not to use it, I kinda have to or else my run time will suffer severely.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Althran

[geninrising]

The only viable fix for this that makes both types of players happy would be weakpoints on the shields. This would allow skillful players to take them down much easier and still allow HROF users to bulldoze as is. Also ensuring that the weakpoints are able to register crits is key as high single shot weapons utilize crit more than base dps.

[HolidayPi3]

How many times man... 

 

Your example is also kinda bad -- at least you have the choice to choose between magnetic damage or corrosive or radation.

 

 

Not to mention that modding elemental combinations does not alter gameplay to the degree that deciding which weapons to use does. Wish people thought before making such far fetched analogies -.-