Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[Phoenix86]

Bleah... DE c'mon...

[Althran]

Bleah... DE c'mon...

 

I mean they must have at least noticed that their damage implementation of the nullifier shields isn't even working... 

[DSpite]

I still can't figure out why there are people here arguing against a proposed change to nullifier shields. Is it that perhaps they enjoy feeling superior in their choice of weapon?

 

 

You mean the fact that we actually think ahead before we take things to a mission? Are you implying that missions should be so simple to do that any random crap whatsoever in all 3 slots should work equally well?

 

All slash weapons with Gas and Magnetic vs Grineer you say? A sniper rifle and a Lex and a slow attack melee weapon in Infested Defense?

 

Yes, thank you, I will feel superior for equipping 3 weapons that complement each other for the faction I'm going against, rather then think that if I just bring 3 random all high DPS weapons that it should be enough because the AI is generally stupid and even lines itself up for the slaughter.

[Althran]

You mean the fact that we actually think ahead before we take things to a mission? Are you implying that missions should be so simple to do that any random crap whatsoever in all 3 slots should work equally well?

 

All slash weapons with Gas and Magnetic vs Grineer you say? A sniper rifle and a Lex and a slow attack melee weapon in Infested Defense?

 

Yes, thank you, I will feel superior for equipping 3 weapons that complement each other for the faction I'm going against, rather then think that if I just bring 3 random all high DPS weapons that it should be enough because the AI is generally stupid and even lines itself up for the slaughter.

 

But they aren't random.  When you choose a weapon, you choose to use it because you probably like it.  When you put an obstacle in the way that punishes certain weapon users but leaves others untouched, it removes choice.  Why is high RoF bullet hose spam the only gameplay that should exist in this game?  There are too many walls that block single rate of fire weapon's chances of becoming even remotely useful, so I'd rather see it buffed for once rather than hindered.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Althran

[geninrising]

You mean the fact that we actually think ahead before we take things to a mission? Are you implying that missions should be so simple to do that any random crap whatsoever in all 3 slots should work equally well?

 

All slash weapons with Gas and Magnetic vs Grineer you say? A sniper rifle and a Lex and a slow attack melee weapon in Infested Defense?

 

Yes, thank you, I will feel superior for equipping 3 weapons that complement each other for the faction I'm going against, rather then think that if I just bring 3 random all high DPS weapons that it should be enough because the AI is generally stupid and even lines itself up for the slaughter.

Guess what pal, the games weapons and the overall design imperative of DE is that player choice is the driving feature of WF and should never be taken away.

 

What the mechanic(both the shield's power negation and the shield being weighted in favor of  High ROF) of nullifier's does directly in all it's facets is REMOVE player choice. This cannot stand as it goes directly counter to DE's assurances time and again that  they want to give players more choices, and they also want to make sure that player A's choice is equally as viable as player B's choice.

[VDeorsum]

But they aren't random.  When you choose a weapon, you choose to use it because you probably like it.  When you put an obstacle in the way that punishes certain weapon users but leaves others untouched, it removes choice.  Why is high RoF bullet hose spam the only gameplay that should exist in this game?  There are too many walls that block single rate of fire weapon's chances of becoming even remotely useful, so I'd rather see it buffed for once rather than hindered.

^THIS

[Rorgal_Sina]

Agree with changing the Void Nullifier shield mechanics, or at least making it like Corpus. Removing variety, choice, diversity, or a player's choice is an idea I heavily despise, as I hate the current power creep, but this is a whole class problem.

 

You are already making sacrifices by choosing your weapons. Snipers? Need to be accurate. Difficult against crowds. Full auto rifles? Need to save ammo. Other disadvantages depending on specific weapon. Shotguns? Range. Usually low capacity. More for specific weapons.

 

Those are choices you make. Players shouldn't be punished further for expanding on THEIR playstyle. Just like how MOST other games have playstyles. Elitist min-maxers....

 

This request is not promoting reckless gameplay. The Bombards, Heavy Gunners, Lancers, Ancients, and Fusion MOA's take care of that.

[geninrising]

Agree with changing the Void Nullifier shield mechanics, or at least making it like Corpus. Removing variety, choice, diversity, or a player's choice is an idea I heavily despise, as I hate the current power creep, but this is a whole class problem.

 

You are already making sacrifices by choosing your weapons. Snipers? Need to be accurate. Difficult against crowds. Full auto rifles? Need to save ammo. Other disadvantages depending on specific weapon. Shotguns? Range. Usually low capacity. More for specific weapons.

 

Those are choices you make. Players shouldn't be punished further for expanding on THEIR playstyle. Just like how MOST other games have playstyles. Elitist min-maxers....

 

This request is not promoting reckless gameplay. The Bombards, Heavy Gunners, Lancers, Ancients, and Fusion MOA's take care of that.

^this

[Althran]

Agree with changing the Void Nullifier shield mechanics, or at least making it like Corpus. Removing variety, choice, diversity, or a player's choice is an idea I heavily despise, as I hate the current power creep, but this is a whole class problem.

 

You are already making sacrifices by choosing your weapons. Snipers? Need to be accurate. Difficult against crowds. Full auto rifles? Need to save ammo. Other disadvantages depending on specific weapon. Shotguns? Range. Usually low capacity. More for specific weapons.

 

Those are choices you make. Players shouldn't be punished further for expanding on THEIR playstyle. Just like how MOST other games have playstyles. Elitist min-maxers....

 

This request is not promoting reckless gameplay. The Bombards, Heavy Gunners, Lancers, Ancients, and Fusion MOA's take care of that.

 

except with high rof guns, you aren't really making a sacrifice, because ammo is never a problem.  at least, it never is for me.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Quick remarks on this topic just so you know we're looking at it:

 

Dev is investigating the examples to see what issues may be occurring as well as looking to put together more info on how the shields work (to better aid combat/testing on our end). When this bears fruit we will pick it together.

[Coatduck]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the nullifier's bubble has a set rate of shrinkage. If you hit it with one good blast it will slowly shrink over time, however this is incredibly buggy. Sometimes I'll hit it with one pulse from a Synoid Gammacore and the thing will continue to shrink until it's gone, but sometimes I'll have to sit there shooting it for 10-15 seconds.

[Fruchtpudding]

I want to add: Since nullifer bubble health is apparently treated as an object you also can't crit against it, making slow crit dependent weapons (for example bows) even worse against them.

[letir]

Dev is investigating the examples to see what issues may be occurring as well as looking to put together more info on how the shields work (to better aid combat/testing on our end). When this bears fruit we will pick it together.

Developers dosen't know, how should work their own new unit???

Edited January 13, 2015 by letir

[Epicagemo]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the nullifier's bubble has a set rate of shrinkage. If you hit it with one good blast it will slowly shrink over time, however this is incredibly buggy. Sometimes I'll hit it with one pulse from a Synoid Gammacore and the thing will continue to shrink until it's gone, but sometimes I'll have to sit there shooting it for 10-15 seconds.

I'd reccommend using burst weapons to test how much shrinkage/bullet ratio they require. Automatic weapons tend to have a stop firing-shield stop shrinking response, as for burst, one shot fires about 5-6 rounds

 

I want to add: Since nullifer bubble health is apparently treated as an object you also can't crit against it, making slow crit dependent weapons (for example bows) even worse against them.

^^

[Llyssa]

Damage does affect it, and OP proved it--just 8 marelok shots did the trick, 9 hek rounds, but 36 braton shots.

 

CLEARLY, if RoF was all that counted, they'd all break it in the same number of rounds.

 

However, braton does, in fact, require 4x as many bullets as marelok.

 

So, damage *does* matter, but it doesn't matter as much as you wish(Guessing you want them 1-shotted if it's strong enough?).

[Arlayn]

I kinda picked up on this awhile back when switching between multiple weapons. Found it odd no matter what the shield took damage the same way every way you shot at it. I assumed this was normal. Never knew it was a bug. Good to know at least this isn't intended. You can even hit this thing with a flux, and it goes down about the same when shooting a braton at it. Its wild. Heck you should try the spectra now that is hilarious...

[Tyrian3k]

The damage that can be dealt to the bubble in one go seems to be capped somehow since no weapon seems to be capable of destroying it in less than 6 shots.

 

My Marelok deals over 4000 damage per shot, but doesn't need less shots to pop the bubble than my Latron Wraith, which only deals about one sixth of the damage.

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

People seem to forget this is a team game. You should bring a good mix of weapons and frames for the specific situation. Me and 3 Clan Members did 70 min T4 Survival easy while everyone had their preferred weapons, Vectis, Synoid Gammacore, Sybaris, Penta, Akvasto, Torid etc. and no one was killed even once by nullifiers. If you run solo and are unwilling to adapt to an enemy type that requires a high RoF weapon prepare to run into a brick wall. Simple as that, although even a team with 4 Lex Primes should do fine if they play organized and focus fire on the nullifiers as soon as they show up while using their frame skills effectively.

[Althran]

Quick remarks on this topic just so you know we're looking at it:

 

Dev is investigating the examples to see what issues may be occurring as well as looking to put together more info on how the shields work (to better aid combat/testing on our end). When this bears fruit we will pick it together.

 

The shield is broken because of two things.  Doesn't take a team of Devs to figure it out, really/

 

1. Set shrinkage

2. Only being affected by high RoF.

 

Thank you for at least trying to remedy the situation.  Was starting to worry it was never going to happen.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Althran

[AMDMAD]

What the hell? So you are telling me that the devs have no idea how a unit they CREATED actually works in the game? Wow, gj~ Where is the standard procedure of testing before implementing?

 

I'm sorry, but that sounded just awful coming from the staff of the game. Perhaps next time do at least a bit of testing before you throw something like this to the players.

Testing is not a word DE can use . Have you not you learned it so far by almost every event that comes out or new enemy ? That is why MANY players demanded test servers dedicated to that and DE gave the soon seal to it . Thus it got forgotten and put away as always

[AMDMAD]

Found a very relevant post about how it makes useless to use many weapons vs nullifiers.I think it deserves a look  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/379548-new-enemies-in-void-make-obsolete-90-weapons-from-being-usable/

[DSkred]

Damage does affect it, and OP proved it--just 8 marelok shots did the trick, 9 hek rounds, but 36 braton shots.

 

CLEARLY, if RoF was all that counted, they'd all break it in the same number of rounds.

 

However, braton does, in fact, require 4x as many bullets as marelok.

 

So, damage *does* matter, but it doesn't matter as much as you wish(Guessing you want them 1-shotted if it's strong enough?).

 

Rate of fire does actually matter if you want to drain the shield quickly. From what players have found, the shield is depleted based on combination of damage and hit count. The damage per shot weapons do determines how many shots are required to wear down the shield. The maximum and minimum number of shots is a static value which does not decrease or increase past those values. As a result, damage is irrelevant past the maximum or minimum amount of damage required to determine how many shots it takes for the shield to wear down. A half charged shot of an Opticor is just as effective as a fully charged shot which does twice the damage.

 

The current Nullifier shield design does not account enough for damage, and hit count is still what matters most. Since they're such a threat, players will look for weapons with the quickest time to kill on the shield when it is not safe to melee them in the bubble. The fastest time to kill on the shields favors weapons with high damage per shot, a large magazine, and are able to fire many shots at a given time. Anything else is otherwise too inefficient or slow to use to wear down the shield. 

 

The problem many players are facing is that it becomes pointless to take anything that does not have a high time to kill on the Nullifier shields. Things like the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Dex Furis, etc. don't need to switch to another weapon to deal with them, because they're ideal for killing the shield. Weapons like the Hek, Opticor, Dread, etc. have to, because they are not good at killing the shield. Nobody wants to constantly juggle between weapons every time a Nullifier appears. It's not fun or challenging, it's just tedious. 

 

Damage should matter more than it currently does, even if it means the shield can be drained with one shot. I think the current time it takes for the shield to shrink is good enough to balance it out. This change wouldn't make them any more trivial than they are now. We've already figured out how to trivialize whatever challenge Nullifiers were supposed to present. Grab a Synoid Gammacor, point it at the shield, and watch how fast they become like the fodder they're trying to protect.

[NyxCrab]

What the hell? So you are telling me that the devs have no idea how a unit they CREATED actually works in the game? Wow, gj~ Where is the standard procedure of testing before implementing?

 

I'm sorry, but that sounded just awful coming from the staff of the game. Perhaps next time do at least a bit of testing before you throw something like this to the players.

I think it's because of the fact they rushed the nullifiers so they could counter the press 4 to win frames and to slow down the rep farms and stuff

[Llyssa]

Rate of fire does actually matter if you want to drain the shield quickly. From what players have found, the shield is depleted based on combination of damage and hit count. The damage per shot weapons do determines how many shots are required to wear down the shield. The maximum and minimum number of shots is a static value which does not decrease or increase past those values. As a result, damage is irrelevant past the maximum or minimum amount of damage required to determine how many shots it takes for the shield to wear down. A half charged shot of an Opticor is just as effective as a fully charged shot which does twice the damage.

 

The current Nullifier shield design does not account enough for damage, and hit count is still what matters most. Since they're such a threat, players will look for weapons with the quickest time to kill on the shield when it is not safe to melee them in the bubble. The fastest time to kill on the shields favors weapons with high damage per shot, a large magazine, and are able to fire many shots at a given time. Anything else is otherwise too inefficient or slow to use to wear down the shield. 

 

The problem many players are facing is that it becomes pointless to take anything that does not have a high time to kill on the Nullifier shields. Things like the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Dex Furis, etc. don't need to switch to another weapon to deal with them, because they're ideal for killing the shield. Weapons like the Hek, Opticor, Dread, etc. have to, because they are not good at killing the shield. Nobody wants to constantly juggle between weapons every time a Nullifier appears. It's not fun or challenging, it's just tedious. 

 

Damage should matter more than it currently does, even if it means the shield can be drained with one shot. I think the current time it takes for the shield to shrink is good enough to balance it out. This change wouldn't make them any more trivial than they are now. We've already figured out how to trivialize whatever challenge Nullifiers were supposed to present. Grab a Synoid Gammacor, point it at the shield, and watch how fast they become like the fodder they're trying to protect.

Not really.

 

Rakta ballistica: click 3 times and the null's shield is no more.

[_Je_Suis_Bruxelles_]

I really don't understand it.

DE says and acts like it wants to revitalize shotguns and slow firing weapons.

But then ,it releases these nullifiers.

I've really tried to hold on to my Vectis in T4 ,try to weapon switch to tackle them...very inefficient,especially after the first rotation.

So , back to Boltor/Soma .

 

So ,I guess all those weapons with tens of catalysts and hundreds of Forma are for Grineer tiles only from now on.

 

I'm not asking reimbursement or anything, but DE ,people have put a lot of time and money in their gear; show a little respect for that.