Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

Why not valkyr?

Because I take the flavor text and videos to be the best representation of DE's intent that we have for each frame.

So until I see otherwise, I will continue to offer feedback on EVERY frame based largely on those sources.

Those aren't perfect sources but what else have we got to go on?

 

Dont defend his biased views

I defend and condemn specific statements about specific points.

 

You mean she doesnt fit the berserker expectation you assumed she had

But when you apply a label like "berserker" or "paladin" or "heaviest" to something... there are certain expectations people get from seeing it. 

The reality is different people have different expectations from the same labels.

That is why this is so tricky and we should look at more than just the one word label.

Statistically speaking "Berzerkers" are sometimes depicted in games as very resilient and sometimes not.

There is no right or wrong way...the question is whether or not the developer has properly communicated what they are going for.

 

 

As a valkyr player who does high waves

Youre really dependent on ally CC after a while

Even mighty valkyr can fall flat in seconds

Corpus are the worst still

I go high enough playing solo to feel that Valkyr's sustainability is strong enough.... Endless levels obviously don't matter.

The only time I am unable to be effective at a task without ally CC is when there is an object to defend.

But again, I've never claimed that Valkyr was invincible or even perfectly designed.

I think she could use some tweaks to some of her kit.

[Azawarau]

Valkyr is actually fine without hysteria, yeah.  Maybe she can have a warcry augment that taunts as well, like the Roar augment should.

Shed be overstepping into rhinos territory but i suppose she could

 

 

 

Because I take the flavor text and videos to be the best representation of DE's intent that we have for each frame.

So until I see otherwise, I will continue to offer feedback on EVERY frame based largely on those sources.

Those aren't perfect sources but what else have we got to go on?

 

I defend and condemn specific statements about specific points.

 

The reality is different people have different expectations from the same labels.

That is why this is so tricky and we should look at more than just the one word label.

Statistically speaking "Berzerkers" are sometimes depicted in games as very resilient and sometimes not.

There is no right or wrong way...the question is whether or not the developer has properly communicated what they are going for.

 

 

I go high enough playing solo to feel that Valkyr's sustainability is strong enough.... Endless levels obviously don't matter.

The only time I am unable to be effective at a task without ally CC is when there is an object to defend.

But again, I've never claimed that Valkyr was invincible or even perfectly designed.

I think she could use some tweaks to some of her kit.

Well theres obvious intent

 

Valkyr was shown to have higher armor than rhino at the start which would suggest she was meant to be tougher

 

Im not sure if shed be tougher with 300 base armor + warcry than rhino is currently but you cant deny that she was built to tank

 

Expectations are one thing, but saying something isnt when it is is another. Im sure youve seen his wild examples of things being one thing to him when others see differently.

 

For example Rhinos ability to take damage.

 

Now im not saying its outright unreasonable so dont jump to conclusions

 

Im saying this guy has made more than a habit of making wild assumptions,accusations, and baseless claims in this thread alone that his credibility for about anything is 0

 

Whether theyre depicted as one thing or another is entirely different from saying "She isnt a berserker"

 

I can quote myself- Actually you quoted me telling him its not the berserker he assumed.

 

Could you also quote me asking him why it should change to a different kind of berserker and his replies that either arent there or are entirely based on subjectivity?

 

Also

 

Berserker Video up

 

Spin2win

 

 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[Ronyn]

Take into consideration base armor,shields,and QT

I was speaking specifically for end game that 85% is too high on rhino

Valkyr has a bit more than that without regening shields and armor on top of direct DR on top of a wide area CC

85% at max is too high

I'm not convinced.

 

The issue is youre trying to make him a different kind of tank than he needs to be<-need is a weird word in video games.

Valkyr = tanky tank

Rhino = support tank

Frost = different kind of support tank

Saryn= Kind of subbed in everything

It works that way<-That is debatable.

 

Making rhino tougher than valkyr and able to support the team with damage mitigating CCs and damage buffs is directly impacting Valkyr

Is it not possible for rhino to be the tank without stealing her role on the team as well? Or obsoleting any other frames for that matter? 

You're right that a change to one frame can effect others, but the specific changes to each frames kit that you want may not be the same that others want. Not everyone is pleased with how it's working or how the roles have been broken down.

 

For example: Valkyr being the "tanky tank" is the result of the way that melee 2.0 interacted with some mostly not-requested tweaks that happen to her pretty quickly after she was released... while the tweaks that were requested back then were mostly left out.

The majority of people mostly asked for a slight increase in her survivability, much greater offensive capability and a larger increase in the functionality of her other moves.

In simple terms-The way Valkyr is described and the majority of early feedback that was given was to make her sturdy but primarily the ultimate close range dps frame. There is nothing wrong with that preference.

Some folks like her a different way. They like her as the "tanky tank" and that is an ok preference to have too.

[Ronyn]

Valkyr is a berserker... most people view them more as a "charge into melee and kill everything but somehow manage to survive" type thing rather than a tank that draws enemy fire away from their allies.

 

Really?

Most people see them as big armor big axe or club and spin2win

Do either of you two honestly think you have the consensus of what "most people" think on this topic?

Come on guys...let's not try to oversell our points.

[Azawarau]

Do either of you two honestly think you have the consensus of what "most people" think on this topic?

Come on guys...let's not try to oversell our points.

I dont think youve caught on yet so ill spill

 

Ive started saying random subjective things every so often that dont hold ground on their own to see what he has to say

 

You should know me better by now

[Kruglov]

I've actually tried to be as honest as possible.

 

 

Anyone who says iron skin is functional as a damage reduction power to current content is lying.

 

 

I guarantee I have done that with mirage.  Many times.  I don't need to record myself for the likes of you, though.

 

 

 

For those just tuning in, that's pretty much a summary of both active "Rhino Buff" threads at the moment.

[Azawarau]

What the heck is that thing....

[Ronyn]

I dont think youve caught on yet so ill spill

Ive started saying random subjective things every so often that dont hold ground on their own to see what he has to say

You should know me better by now

I see. Well...I never was very good at that kind of conversation. lol

I am all about playing it straight. :-)

 

 

What the heck is that thing....

baby grinch...yeesh

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Azawarau]

 

I see. Well...I never was very good at that kind of conversation. lol

I am all about playing it straight. :-)

 

 

baby grinch...yeesh

 

Oh wow, i see it now....

 

I think OP went to sleep

[sanj66]

Why not valkyr?

 

Dont defend his biased views

 

He obviously thinks males should be tougher

 

Hes given more than enough examples of common trends and cliches from games to show that

 

As a valkyr player who does high waves

 

Youre really dependent on ally CC after a while

 

Even mighty valkyr can fall flat in seconds

 

Corpus are the worst still

valkyr was never meant to be a tank thats why. why is a non tank tankier than a unit meant to be a tank? also 85% dm on is doesnt out tank 100% god mode and hp regen, not to mention her already innate tankiness with 600 armor. as you could have seen from early archwing missions without powers she is already the most tanky warframe and she isnt even a tank. and like i pointed out yes zerks are heavy but they are no where near a tank unit, also think about this, if a zerk can be a zerk and out tank a tank at the same time, what is the relevance of the tank? also thats in typical mmo styles, in actuality a berserker wore light armor to be able to "go berserk" and deal high damage as fast as possible, mmo's and games gave them the tanky impression.

[Azawarau]

valkyr was never meant to be a tank thats why. why is a non tank tankier than a unit meant to be a tank? also 85% dm on is doesnt out tank 100% god mode and hp regen, not to mention her already innate tankiness with 600 armor. as you could have seen from early archwing missions without powers she is already the most tanky warframe and she isnt even a tank. and like i pointed out yes zerks are heavy but they are no where near a tank unit, also think about this, if a zerk can be a zerk and out tank a tank at the same time, what is the relevance of the tank? also thats in typical mmo styles, in actuality a berserker wore light armor to be able to "go berserk" and deal high damage as fast as possible, mmo's and games gave them the tanky impression.

Valkyr was never meant to be a tank but she was introduced wit the highest armor?

 

Hysteria is broken without a doubt as should be changed. No argument there

 

She kind of is a tank. Not in the sense of taking aggro but she can take alot of damage

 

What is the point of the tank?

 

Maybe damage mitigation for the team and team buffs ontop of being able to avoid statuses that could keep the tank from doing its job

 

Sounds alot like rhino

 

Valkyr is as tanky as she because of her lack of CC or AoE damage powers

 

Shes a turn in a different direction than most frames this way and it works for her

[DSpite]

If you can't look at mirage and tell her whether she's in light mode or dark mode... it's  your fail.  It's pretty obvious as the visuals change drastically between sunlight and shadow.  If you can't use the terrain to your advantage... it's pretty epic fail, since that's what Mirage is all about.

 

 

I just checked your Rhino(s) stats. They are rather ... low?. Do you actually use him other then mopping up on trash missions? You have 2700 kills attached to Rhino, and 2500 on Rhino Prime, while I have 15500 kills just attached to my Rhino Prime, and twice the XP. You have been playing long enough to be MR18, collect most of the now impossible to get event items and I beat your Rhino stats by a factor of two or more, even thought I have been using him since half way in 2014, but here you are telling other players that they can't play their classes properly.

 

Why are you obsessing on a Frame you don't use? Because you can't facetank like the old days when it was OBVIOUSLY broken? Got used to a broken skill and want to relive the old days?

 

If you can't operate Rhino NOW on the battlefield, it's "your fail". Begging DE to buff a Frame so you have to do even less work because "he's meant to be a Tank!!!" is asinine.

 

Would I welcome some changes to IS? Sure. Your ideas? Seriously? No.

[DSpite]

mesa and mirage are much worse then rhino in tanking

 

By his definitions, Limbo is the Uber-Tank. One Hundred Percent damage reduction. With 77 second duration, that's for the the entire duration of most rush missions.

 

If standing in a corner in darkness can be considered "tanking", then pretty sure Limbo can Uber-Tank entire Rescue missions, as if the enemy units were not even spawned on the level.

[Holeypaladin]

You seem to be mistaken about what having kills attached to a frame actually means.

 

Those kills attached to rhino and rhino prime are purely kills from ability use alone.  Essentially, they're all rhino stomp kills.  You obviously use rhino stomp a heck of a lot more than me.  Most of my kills are attached to weapons, rather than warframes.  Because using energy for iron skin and shooting things is more my style than killing things by stomping.

 

If you look at percentage use, Rhino has a 33% percentage use.  Multiply the 500,000 TOTAL kills by 33% and you have a rough estimate of how many kills I've gotten while wearing Rhino.

 

I would say that a 33% use of a single frame is enough to have a rough idea how to use him, and understand all of his abilities.  And to know how underpowered iron skin is compared to other damage reduction powers that came out in the last year... especially considering I've used it since the invincibility days and was actually glad for the iron skin change when it came out because it no longer was limited to duration.  But now that I'm taking so much more damage than I used to, I'm wishing it went back to duration because while a duration-based iron skin wasn't a good thing back when I was first using him... it's much better now since it scales better to high-level content.

 

I've never told anyone that they can't use their class properly... all I've said is that he is no longer useful as a tank, and that he should be, because he always was in the past.

 

The fact that Rhino prime has almost as many kills with less than a third as much useage is proof that Rhino has undergone a shift from tanking damage to roar-stomp bot.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Ronyn]

Valkyr was never meant to be a tank but she was introduced wit the highest armor?

Introduced with the highest armor by only 20 points paired with minimal shields and an ability that sheds a portion of her shields to do damage. At her launch stats she was not particularly tanky. She was actually rather squishy outside of hysteria.

What she is now is the result of the combined changes that happened AFTER her introduction and the meta shift of melee 2.0. 

 

Valkyr is as tanky as she because of her lack of CC or AoE damage powers

I'd rather they would have improved the powers that almost all early feedback called "lackluster", "weak", "underwhelming"...

then just triple her armor rating and act like it made her the raging damage dealer they billed her as.

 

Ripline should be a single target CC and damage move but is still just too darn slow moving, weak hitting and finicky.

Paralysis is a spammable crowd control and aoe damage move. It's not wide reaching but plenty of players build for it and use it well.

Warcry is a team buff and slight CC in that it slows. It's use beyond valkyr herself is situational and that isn't necessarily great.

And of course there is the travesty that is hysteria....which looks pretty cool these days but still doesn't do what it should.

 

To be frank: Not everyone buys into the idea that her current state is intentional or "works".

I know some folks like her how she is. I'm not saying that is wrong exactly....but there are other points of view.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

 

And of course there is the travesty that is hysteria....which looks pretty cool these days but still doesn't do what it should.

 

To be frank: Not everyone buys into the idea that her current state is intentional or "works".

I know some folks like her how she is. I'm not saying that is wrong exactly....but there are other points of view.

This^ I would have thought that her armor rating plus warcry was enough defense. I would like to see her Hysteria literally be a power that allows her to do higher damage than every other weapon in the game for X amount of seconds with her claws. By higher I mean more damage that Crit Paris Prime on red crit.

 

They bill her as the rampaging maniac that rends her foes. Make her that frame. I would love to see Valkyr ripline around to proper position then pop paralysis then ult and shred a massive group in her vicinity. However her dps with hysteria is extremely lackluster with the only true benefit a godmode that DE has clearly stated that they are against invulnerability, hence Rhino's change.

 

I still stand by my idea of adding DR from armor to IS as a way to balance Rhino more in the event a player wishes to embrace his tanking ability more than his overall concept, however having said that I dimply cannot stand the thought of a return to a majority of IS only builds running around being unable to really help the whole team. 

[Holeypaladin]

I'd like to see a viable duration build Rhino, with a duration-based roar with a taunt augment to draw fire away from allies, a duration-based iron skin that provides enough DR to soak up the enemy fire that would otherwise be directed at your teammates, and perhaps duration scaling to rhino stomp as well.

[Vaskadar]

*aherm*

 

I'll just drop this here.

 

A tactical approach to Iron Skin

[Sixty5]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Iron skin getting the same sort of treatment Snow Globe got

 

You get 5 seconds of invulnerability upon activating the ability, and during this time damage is absorbed, after which that damage is added to the total HP of the shield (with a scaling factor affected by power strength)

 

With that added in you could scale back the base HP of Iron skin and make it an ability that works throughout the game

 

The biggest problem with Iron Skin is that it falls of SUPER fast, but at early levels it is just stupidly broken. 

 

Letting it scale like that not only reduces the OP-ness of the ability early on, but gives Rhino a bit more utility later on in the game when it comes to objective play and support.

[geninrising]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Iron skin getting the same sort of treatment Snow Globe got

 

You get 5 seconds of invulnerability upon activating the ability, and during this time damage is absorbed, after which that damage is added to the total HP of the shield (with a scaling factor affected by power strength)

 

With that added in you could scale back the base HP of Iron skin and make it an ability that works throughout the game

 

The biggest problem with Iron Skin is that it falls of SUPER fast, but at early levels it is just stupidly broken. 

 

Letting it scale like that not only reduces the OP-ness of the ability early on, but gives Rhino a bit more utility later on in the game when it comes to objective play and support.

The problem already with this idea is spam builds+ Iron shrapnel=infinte scaling godmode+infinite scaling damage

[Sixty5]

The problem already with this idea is spam builds+ Iron shrapnel=infinte scaling godmode+infinite scaling damage

Enemy damage scales at a much lower rate than enemy HP and armour.

 

Mind control a level 100 Corrupted Heavy gunner some time, and watch it start to attack its allies. Even though it can kill you in seconds, it barely does any damage to them.

 

Why? Because enemies are designed around the fact that our DPS usually sits in the region of 20-30k while our HP and Shields for the most part struggle to hit 5k

[geninrising]

Enemy damage scales at a much lower rate than enemy HP and armour.

 

Mind control a level 100 Corrupted Heavy gunner some time, and watch it start to attack its allies. Even though it can kill you in seconds, it barely does any damage to them.

 

Why? Because enemies are designed around the fact that our DPS usually sits in the region of 20-30k while our HP and Shields for the most part struggle to hit 5k

my point still stands about infinite scaling godmode and infinite scaling damage. Whether the enemy hp and armor scales higher or not has no impact on my position.

[Azawarau]

Introduced with the highest armor by only 20 points paired with minimal shields and an ability that sheds a portion of her shields to do damage. At her launch stats she was not particularly tanky. She was actually rather squishy outside of hysteria.

What she is now is the result of the combined changes that happened AFTER her introduction and the meta shift of melee 2.0. 

Stop right there

 

You know as well as i do that most every frame has had changes made

 

Youre near an assumption that Valkyr came out as intended

 

She got a buff that she needed

 

And melee 2.0 didnt change a thing for her on its own

 

Life strike is what makes valkyr less reliant on healers and hysteria to actually being able to tank heavily

 

Quick thinking adds to this

 

Before life strike hysteria was needed (Without the invi) just as a panic button

 

The armor was needed either way for her to play as she does now

 

Even with 300 armor shed be played mostly the same way but wouldnt be tough enough to beat out rhino

 

Shed be obsoleted

Edited January 15, 2015 by Azawarau

[Thaumatos]

Valkyr was never meant to be a tank but she was introduced wit the highest armor?

How is it so hard for you to understand that the high armor and invulnerability are band-aids to the terrible defenses frames have in melee combat?

 

Why does that somehow slip right past your nose every single time anyone talks about valk?  Do you have some sort of personal bias problem with valk?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Azawarau]

How is it so hard for you to understand that the high armor and invulnerability are band-aids to the terrible defenses frames have in melee combat?

 

Why does that somehow slip right past your nose every single time anyone talks about valk?  Do you have some sort of personal bias problem with valk?

How exactly is high defense a band aid? You better be able to explain this if youre so quick to insult

 

You already know i think invincibility is broken so its stupid to even bring that up.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Azawarau