Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

 

Oi, has it always been like this? 

For a while. A bunch of armor changes happened during the Damage 2.0 period that shifted around who was where on that list.

Then later, when melee 2.0 hit, lifestrike became a great source of health.

And of course the rage mod, which turns damage taken into energy..pairs wonderfully with lifestrike.

Particularly on frames with high armor rating because they take less damage per hot but gain the same amount of energy.

This created the new rage/lifestrike loop.  That loop works ok on rhino (great with ironclad charge but no IS)..

it works very well with saryn and oberon. and makes Valkyr super friggin tough.

 

These are the kind of changes over time that accumulate in a way that changes the order of who is REALLY the tankiest frames these days.

 

This is what I mean when I say I think certain things got a bit away from their intent.

[RealPandemonium]

Wish I could up-vote this post a few dozen times. It is really criminal how fast Rhino Prime's Iron Skin goes away, even with a lowly level 60 bombard hitting you. And this would be the perfect counter to that issue. Well said.

Level 60 heavy Grineer are supposed to be the high end of enemies that you encounter in normal play.  It's not "lowly;" it's multiple waves into infinite content.  Have you guys been talking about infinite content this whole time?

[Soul.Fire]

 

 

Oberon and Saryn also beat Rhino. link on the wiki:http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

I have played far too much on Rhino, more than I would care to admit; It is misnomer to consider him durable enough to tank without IS.The only way to health tank is to have a means to heal the health damage taken. Rhino is not a tank, but has a broken overpowered iron skin that trivializes NPCs up to level 30 then fails rapidly after that. 

 

I do not see what DE intent is with the current Iron skin. If they want Rhino to be using it all the time, then why have a passive system? There are ways to have iron skin removed and have all of Rhino powers work at fueling his rage and rejuvenating him. From every video i have seen for his game-play, he was meant to be played like Psycho from Borderlands 2. 

 

Read Rhino Prime's in-game codex entry, the assessment isn't far wrong. The problem is, he just isn't really that viable at it past level 60, bombards will two shot him at that point, one hit to take Iron Skin and half his hp, and the second to take the rest and put him on the ground. Considering those rockets do such whomping much damage I'm really not surprised, but with the codex entry taken into account that shouldn't happen, IS should be a timed damage reduction/CC immunity, not a shield of extra hp. It wouldn't be so bad if it was complete invulnerability even, they could make it like Valkyr's hysteria and have him take a percentage of the damage done while in IS if he failed to kill all enemies in LoS. Valkyr goes down ridiculously quickly anyway at high levels with that particular Achilles Heel because there is always such a hord by that point that it's impossible to kill them all no matter what frame you are, Rhino/Rhino Prime would and should be no different, it should just take him much longer to hit that point, his original design being the ultimate tank and all.

[Soul.Fire]

Level 60 heavy Grineer are supposed to be the high end of enemies that you encounter in normal play.  It's not "lowly;" it's multiple waves into infinite content.  Have you guys been talking about infinite content this whole time?

I'm ok with them doing decent damage, but when you have to hide like a mouse in T3/T4 with Rhino Prime of all things, the one who was meant specifically to kill them, then is where I say it's wrong and he needs a buff. Make him like Valkyr with that trade-off if necessary, it's not that hard and it's not unreasonable.

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

 

For a while. A bunch of armor changes happened during the Damage 2.0 period that shifted around who was where on that list.

Then later, when melee 2.0 hit, lifestrike became a great source of health.

And of course the rage mod, which turns damage taken into energy..pairs wonderfully with lifestrike.

Particularly on frames with high armor rating because they take less damage per hot but gain the same amount of energy.

This created the new rage/lifestrike loop.  That loop works ok on rhino (great with ironclad charge but no IS)..

it works very well with saryn and oberon. and makes Valkyr super friggin tough.

 

These are the kind of changes over time that accumulate in a way that changes the order of who is REALLY the tankiest frames these days.

 

This is what I mean when I say I think certain things got a bit away from their intent.

 

 

I use Life Strike+Rage too. Otherwise melee only is not really an option. Sadly. Those armor changes didn't reach me somehow. Good for Saryn/Oberon.

 

Lol, I first thought, Soul_Fire was ironic.

[RealPandemonium]

I'm ok with them doing decent damage, but when you have to hide like a mouse in T3/T4 with Rhino Prime of all things, the one who was meant specifically to kill them, then is where I say it's wrong and he needs a buff. Make him like Valkyr with that trade-off if necessary, it's not that hard and it's not unreasonable.

To clarify, are we talking about the Corrupted version from the Void, or the regular one from the star map?

[geninrising]

Level 60 heavy Grineer are supposed to be the high end of enemies that you encounter in normal play.  It's not "lowly;" it's multiple waves into infinite content.  Have you guys been talking about infinite content this whole time?

My findings are that IS can last well up to wave 20 without issue if you are not Facetanking however unfortunately what the OP wants is an IS that lasts far beyond that point and is scalable based on extra factors that basically brings back the issue of abusable IS. What we have been trying to do is actually provide a workable IS change that would not be utterly broken star system wide but at the same time would not be utter S#&$ vs bombards and nullifiers later on so that numbers will still dominate you if you mess up.

[Holeypaladin]

My findings are that IS can last well up to wave 20 without issue if you are not Facetanking

First, 20 waves is the bare minimum.  Any half-decent team will try for 40 waves, 40 mins, 8 rounds of interception, etc. for that second rotation C reward.  That's what people play.  It's what people want to be able to achieve.

 

But it's not something that iron skin can handle.  Which means it doesn't scale well for the content that PEOPLE PLAY.

 

Whether or not the game is intended to scale that high is irrelevant... the fact is, people are doing it, and when Rhino is no longer able to perform his primary tank role at that level, it means he's failing at his primary role and forced into a secondary role of roarbot/stompbot/etc.  Even if he is viable for these secondary roles, they are NOT his intended role for the content that people actually play.

 

The armor scaling DR to Iron skin is a step in the right direction.  Rhino's armor would need to be at least 300 for it to really help, and for high wave T4 missions it may be necessary to synergize ironclad charge in order for armor to mean anything.  But that's something a skilled player would do, rather than an unskilled player who doesn't ever use rhino charge.

[Bobtm]

 

I do not see what DE intent is with the current Iron skin. If they want Rhino to be using it all the time, then why have a passive system? There are ways to have iron skin removed and have all of Rhino powers work at fueling his rage and rejuvenating him. From every video i have seen for his game-play, he was meant to be played like Psycho from Borderlands 2.

 

 

Oh please, please please please please no...

 

That character was such a brokenly janky mess of overpowered garbage.  No game developer should ever hope to create a monstrosity like that ... thing.  I could go on further, but I'll stop as that character is luckily not in this game.

 

 The armor scaling DR to Iron skin is a step in the right direction.  Rhino's armor would need to be at least 300 for it to really help, and for high wave T4 missions it may be necessary to synergize ironclad charge in order for armor to mean anything.  But that's something a skilled player would do, rather than an unskilled player who doesn't ever use rhino charge.

 

Issue there though is that, if my memory of things is correct on the matter as armor has been discussed, is that putting his armor at that value is in the neighborhood of a 50% damage reduction.

 

That's the literal same thing as just outright doubling IS's HP.  It's currently not too difficult at all to have an IS value of around 2500, which is a hell of a lot more EHP than most frames can have, and that's without counting his own actual EHP.  Beyond that IS, as known, can be very swiftly recast.

 

With only that and no other changes, Rhino would have access to a recastable shielding worth 5k HP, and I'd say that's overboard for sure when it also gives Rhino the massive boon that is CC immunity.

 

Of course that all hinges on me having remembered the previous discussion on armor values correctly.  There's something else however we can note, a Nullifier's bubble.

 

Its mechanics were revealed to us here recently and the way it works is rather interesting.  Having mechanics of that style being applied to Rhino's current Iron Skin could both make it weaker at low level content while simultaneously making it better at high level content (as long as the numerical values were tweaked properly).

[geninrising]

First, 20 waves is the bare minimum.  Any half-decent team will try for 40 waves, 40 mins, 8 rounds of interception, etc. for that second rotation C reward.  That's what people play.  It's what people want to be able to achieve.

 

But it's not something that iron skin can handle.  Which means it doesn't scale well for the content that PEOPLE PLAY.

 

Whether or not the game is intended to scale that high is irrelevant... the fact is, people are doing it, and when Rhino is no longer able to perform his primary tank role at that level, it means he's failing at his primary role and forced into a secondary role of roarbot/stompbot/etc.  Even if he is viable for these secondary roles, they are NOT his intended role for the content that people actually play.

 

The armor scaling DR to Iron skin is a step in the right direction.  Rhino's armor would need to be at least 300 for it to really help, and for high wave T4 missions it may be necessary to synergize ironclad charge in order for armor to mean anything.  But that's something a skilled player would do, rather than an unskilled player who doesn't ever use rhino charge.

The point being that wave 20 is as far as abilities are balanced to carry you. Beyond that it is your burden of tactical application to go further.

BTW Holey did you see my idea on how to allow Rhino to Facetank fully? Let me reiterate it here and see if I can get a reaction rather than outright being ignored by the community as a whole in this thread

 

 

Holy crap. On another thread we have been discussing how Augments should never fix an ability but rather they should simply provide enhancements to further specialize your frame in a meaningful way.

 

Plus as an added bonus I figured out how to give IS players true facetanking ability without being immortal ^^

 

If you can't see the video on chrome clcik the shield icon at the top and choose to load unsafe scripts. For some reason chrome views embedded vids as unsafe.

 

This augment augment idea fits thematically with the initial video I saw of Rhino ignoring Lech Kril's hammer shockwave while the other tenno rushed him and would cement his role as THE tank in WF in more of a traditional sense while still guaranteeing that a player that unthinkingly rushes in and becomes surrounded will still die appropriately even with it active. Also it incorporates the aggro mechanic plus even a little more..

 

Iron Bulwark 

Rhino now gains TOTAL damage mitigation in a 180 degree arc in front of him for the lifetime of IS. The damage mitigation also extends to include any source of AOE damage and shields for 2m on either side of him to allow him to actually block for teammates in need. Additionally while active Rhino's attacks aggro opponents for 5 seconds This shield allows Rhino to fearlessly engage heavy threat targets however it requires he think carefully about how he approaches combat. It is necessary that Rhino be aware of his surroundings and react accordingly to ensure he can survive a situation where enemy damage can exceed his IS total.

You want face tanking you got it.

 

This is EXACTLY what Rhino needs to make him a go to frame for many occasions and allows precisely what many Rhino players have wanted ever since seeing the video I mentioned.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[xontix627]

People keep forgetting that Iron Skin is not invincibility.

 

It's basically additive health and in no way is meant to face tank at all at this point.

 

Though maybe, a 4 second unincreasable invincibility on cast would be nice, like Frost's Snow Globe.

[Holeypaladin]

That augment might be nice, sure.  But iron skin already has an augment, and I'm not holding out hope that a second augment is gonna be added for the same ability.

 

"Most frames" don't have ANY abilities that grant them EHP.  A power than grants 1 EHP is more than "most frames" can do, but that doesn't make it worth using at all ever.

 

Thing is, 2500 EHP is less than all powers that DO grants EHP except for the shield transference augment since its nerf (it used to be higher too).

 

If 2500 EHP from iron skin is STILL the weakest power that grants EHP... then it's definitely not overpowered.

 

The multiplicative enhancements to EHP that come from percentage-based damage reduction grant WAY more EHP than 2500.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[LazyKnight]

That character was such a brokenly janky mess of overpowered garbage.  

Nothing in that game was balanced, or even took itself seriously. If anyone want to argue, just play overpowered 8. 

 

Conceptual, Rhino is supposed to be an angry hulk type character that would not bother opening a door and most activities would involve smashing. DE_Steve has made reference to his character type in a few of the live-streams. However, they made Valkyr the new and improved berserker, and made her the violent melee and basically replaced Rhino, both figuratively and literally. 

 

Rhino is not a tank, and there is no role for that in this game. What he is now closer to an armored grunt.

 

 

Its mechanics were revealed to us here recently and the way it works is rather interesting.  Having mechanics of that style being applied to Rhino's current Iron Skin could both make it weaker at low level content while simultaneously making it better at high level content (as long as the numerical values were tweaked properly).

I mention this as an idea on the previous page. There is no reason that it needs to be health based, when it could be changed to a number of hits system. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Bobtm]

 Iron Bulwark 

 

That's a solid idea, however it may still be a bit much when looked at in certain situations (not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here)

 

Two Rhinos, standing back to back, Bulwark up = insta-broken.

Four Rhinos, standing around the Cryopod, defense object = insta-broken.

one Rhino, standing in a corner so enemies cannot target his back = insta-broken.

 

With some clear exceptions to keep it reigned in though, the idea could be awesome and fitting for sure.

 

 

That augment might be nice, sure.  But iron skin already has an augment, and I'm not holding out hope that a second augment is gonna be added for the same ability.

 

"Most frames" don't have ANY abilities that grant them EHP.  A power than grants 1 EHP is more than "most frames" can do, but that doesn't make it worth using at all ever.

 

Thing is, 2500 EHP is less than all powers that DO grants EHP except for the shield transference augment since its nerf (it used to be higher too).

 

If 2500 EHP from iron skin is STILL the weakest power that grants EHP... then it's definitely not overpowered.

 

The multiplicative enhancements to EHP that come from percentage-based damage reduction grant WAY more EHP than 2500.

 

You... forgot your own armor rating increase which I thought... gimme a moment here.  I'm gonna go scream at a wall to regain my center.

 

 

 

Alright, now that that's out of the way, I noted above how you wanted to give Rhino's current IS a straight 50% DR, this means that IS's actual damage shielding would be 5000, not 2500.  And you're right, in the straight versions it is less than a very few frames' EHP values even at 5k (only by a small amount though) but there's this thing about IS that makes it different than other frame EHP based values.

 

It's not actual HP, it's a raw shielding.  So basically the Rhino can just grant himself an instant extra five thousand hit points that are literal throwaway hitpoints.  Him losing them is an entire non-issue since he can just toss them back on.  Frames with DR% still take damage to their shields and HP, they still risk being stricken by proc attacks.  Especially so with Magnetic procs which entirely remove existing energy and prevent energy gain temporarily.

 

For what feels like the hundredth time, take in the whole picture rather than the tiny fragment.

 

 

Nothing in that game was balanced, or even took itself seriously. If anyone want to argue, just play overpowered 8. 

 

Conceptual, Rhino is supposed to be an angry hulk type character that would not bother opening a door and most activities would involve smashing. DE_Steve has made reference to his character type in a few of the live-streams. However, they made Valkyr the new and improved berserker, and made her the violent melee and basically replaced Rhino, both figuratively and literately. 

 

Rhino is not a tank, and there is no role for that in this game. What he is now closer to an armored grunt.

 

I see what you're saying, apologies for the misconception there then.  There was someone a ways back in a different thread where they specifically wanted Rhino to play like said Psycho, and did mean it literally as they thought the Psycho was a fair, balanced, and well designed character.

 

I also agree on your note about Rhino not being a tank, I personally see him as a "bruiser" but that's something that's come and gone by in this thread.  Where it seems to have ended up is this;  Some folks want a tank who fits the theme of being a tank, so let's talk about ways to see if Rhino can fit into this role.

 

Of course since then it's been a circle of helplessness with no clear steps forward for the most part.  There've been some notably interesting ideas too, but they seem to get lost in all the senseless junk.

 

 I mention this as an idea on the previous page. There is no reason that it needs to be health based, when it could be changed to a number of hits system. 

 

I noticed you'd mentioned a number of hits thing too.  I didn't specifically recall noting the nullifier's bubble in name which is the only reason I bothered typing it instead of just quoting you and then typing "^This".  So yeah, another thing we agree could be an interesting solution for IS.

[Holeypaladin]

I personally think melee blocking should drain a static amount of stamina per bullet blocked, depending on the type of bullet (lanka bullet draining more than a grakata bullet), regardless of the level of the enemy shooting.

 

Iron skin can apply a similar logic by having different bullet types draining different amounts of iron skin health, to make it number of hits based.

 

Be interesting to see both systems applied... the first because melee desperately needs to be worth using at high levels, and second because iron skin desperately needs a rework.

[RealPandemonium]

People keep forgetting that Iron Skin is not invincibility.

 

It's basically additive health and in no way is meant to face tank at all at this point.

 

Though maybe, a 4 second unincreasable invincibility on cast would be nice, like Frost's Snow Globe.

This.  Why don't we just make it work the way Snow Globe works?  

[geninrising]

This.  Why don't we just make it work the way Snow Globe works?  

Snowglobe works the way it does because it is absolutely necessary for the entire team. IS is not absolutely necessary for the teams completion of missions.

 

Additionally what we discussed previously is that there will end up being invincible Rhino's as players will abuse the energy loophole through whatever method to produce Godtank state by casting IS>Iron shrapnel before invulnerable time is up and recast in an infinite loop. That begets the same problem IS had originally and it would guarantee Rhino's presence on long Survivals and Defenses potentially rather than just making him a more worthwhile choice for said missions.

 

 

Ok on another note about the Iron Bulwark Idea presented above, how about we provide DR to IS on the forward shield or make it a forward shield ONLY with the stated augment rather than the normal IS iteration. If we went the shield only Route then IS could become duration based or allow Rhino to create the shield after IS cast via toggle type setting. ie: activate IS, activate again to generate the forward shielding. If it is a forward shield ONLY then I see no real way we could classify that as broken. For an example look at Volt. 

 

That's a solid idea, however it may still be a bit much when looked at in certain situations (not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here)

 

Two Rhinos, standing back to back, Bulwark up = insta-broken.

Four Rhinos, standing around the Cryopod, defense object = insta-broken.

one Rhino, standing in a corner so enemies cannot target his back = insta-broken.

 

With some clear exceptions to keep it reigned in though, the idea could be awesome and fitting for sure.

How about the above idea? if Rhino was forced to sacrifice total protection from IS in favor of directional defense would that work to reign it in in your opinion? I feel that Volt already provides this potential brokenness. I am unsure if Rhino should maintain his Proc/CC immunity in this iteration due to balancing factors as well. Perhaps Rhino should forsake all other benefits to attain total forward defense? Thus we could allow facetanking while still keeping it more skill centric rather than just press button and ignore everything.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[LazyKnight]

Snowglobe works the way it does because it is absolutely necessary for the entire team. IS is not absolutely necessary for the teams completion of missions.

The team aspect is completely Irrelevant, to any balance problems. It would be a bad idea for another reason:it would require Rhino to soak up as much damage as possible in the first few seconds it activates; This would make rhino the "leeroy jenkins" of Warframe.

 

 

Ok on another note about the Iron Bulwark Idea presented above, how about we provide DR to IS on the forward shield or make it a forward shield ONLY with the stated augment rather than the normal IS iteration.

It just a copy of the Archwing Odonata's energy shield and it would turn him it to another ranged tank. He would then be worthless as a melee fighter and it overlaps with other powers.

 

 

Perhaps Rhino should forsake all other benefits to attain total forward defense? Thus we could allow facetanking while still keeping it more skill centric rather than just press button and ignore everything.

That would basically be tanking with a shield in many RPGs, and would not be fun to use on rhino because of how many of the animation would expose the character's back. Also, forget using IS with any melee weapon verse infested units.

 

The only time forward defense would be useful is for guarding a hallway, or from an angle where NPC can not spawn behind you. This type of defense is better for ranged characters, and Rhino's powers are set up to be in the middle of a battle.

Edited January 28, 2015 by LazyKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Snowglobe works the way it does because it is absolutely necessary for the entire team. IS is not absolutely necessary for the teams completion of missions.

Eh, I'm not really seeing this.  You don't NEED Frost to do defense missions; he just makes it easier.  On the other hand it would amuse me to see Rhino players spamming 2 every 4 seconds.  It would certainly pose a usability drawback but the players who want to face-tank would have their wish granted.  

 

Another idea: Same as above, but maybe we could lock the player out of re-casting and add a persistent aggro-pulling effect that has a duration (affected inversely by duration mods?) that also serves as a cool-down timer for the ability.  That would force the player to use it at the right times to get the most HP out of it during the invulnerability window while making them take responsibility for tanking for their allies.  If this were implemented the damage multiplier for the shield would likely have to be higher than what it presently is.  

[SIDESTRE4M]

I'm thinking...

 

What is the core problem of this discussion, that will undoubtly reach 50 pages soon.

 

We have three fundamental problems:

1. Consensus about what Rhino "is".

2. His position in current and future meta.

3. If there are changes to be made, which ones?

 

Those points are meshing with each other every new page.

 

What we can somehow agree with: Rhino leaves something to be desired.

What we cannot agree on is his position in meta and what his role could be.

And because of that we cannot solve the question what to do.

 

I wouldn't say we all have to agree on something, but everything that is said, has been said multiple times already.

[shoryukensama]

as i said buried long in the thread, just change rhino's lore. much easier for DE. 

or we could switch rhino IS with nullifiers bubble. the mechanics of having health shield vs number of bullets shield. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Since it's mechanic is more or less the same, this seems reasonable.

[Ronyn]

Conceptual, Rhino is supposed to be an angry hulk type character that would not bother opening a door and most activities would involve smashing. DE_Steve has made reference to his character type in a few of the live-streams. However, they made Valkyr the new and improved berserker, and made her the violent melee and basically replaced Rhino, both figuratively and literally. 

 

Rhino is not a tank, and there is no role for that in this game. What he is now closer to an armored grunt.

I don't quite agree with this. Rhino's description includes "brutish" for sure, but he is also described as a tank.

Granted that currently Rhino is arguably not fitting into that role as he lacks a functional way to grab aggro and survive it.... 

That role could very well fit into warframe, and at times has in some form, it is simply a matter of whether DE wants it or not.

 

 

Alright, now that that's out of the way, I noted above how you wanted to give Rhino's current IS a straight 50% DR, this means that IS's actual damage shielding would be 5000, not 2500.  And you're right, in the straight versions it is less than a very few frames' EHP values even at 5k (only by a small amount though) but there's this thing about IS that makes it different than other frame EHP based values.

 

It's not actual HP, it's a raw shielding.  So basically the Rhino can just grant himself an instant extra five thousand hit points that are literal throwaway hitpoints.  Him losing them is an entire non-issue since he can just toss them back on.  Frames with DR% still take damage to their shields and HP, they still risk being stricken by proc attacks.  Especially so with Magnetic procs which entirely remove existing energy and prevent energy gain temporarily.

Specific numbers aside-

Assuming we are going with the idea that Rhino is supposed to be a tank, then him having far better ability to withstand damage than all others is not inherently bad.

Assuming the energy keeps flowing too freely, then the issue of how easy it is to recast things for all frames has made the game too easy.

 

Snowglobe works the way it does because it is absolutely necessary for the entire team. IS is not absolutely necessary for the teams completion of missions.

Now I am not promoting that Iron Skin work like snowglobe for the very reason you mentioned....

But I want to say that looking at SnowGlobe as a tool meant to serve the whole team is exactly the kind of approach I am taking to iron skin. 

 

The team aspect is completely Irrelevant, to any balance problems. It would be a bad idea for another reason:it would require Rhino to soak up as much damage as possible in the first few seconds it activates; This would make rhino the "leeroy jenkins" of Warframe.

Too far to say that team use is irrelevant to balance problems, knowing if an ability is meant to be purely self use or have team use is quite important to a balance discussion.

 

As for rhino needing to soak up damage with a snowglobe like mechanic to iron skin, you are right.

It would basically need to give rhino a ton of aggro for those initial seconds of invulnerability for it all to work out right.

Though as geninrising pointed out, iron shrapnel allows a rhino to cast,break, recast an Invincible iron skin staying basically invincible the whole time and that pretty much ruins the idea.

 

 

as i said buried long in the thread, just change rhino's lore. much easier for DE. 

"Easier" is often the wrong approach though. One of DE's primary goals with the current list of frames is to offer a frame for every playstyle.

Rhino as a mobile tank who draws and survives aggro (his earlier design) would be pretty unique playstyle among the frames.

His current "sturdy CC spammer and buffer" design is far less so IMO.

 

Since it's mechanic is more or less the same, this seems reasonable.

The question remains..what would people (DE and the Playerbase) prefer him to be.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

I'm thinking...

 

What is the core problem of this discussion, that will undoubtly reach 50 pages soon.

 

We have three fundamental problems:

1. Consensus about what Rhino "is".

2. His position in current and future meta.

3. If there are changes to be made, which ones?

4: We cannot agree on what level the game should be balanced at.

 

Those points are meshing with each other every new page.

 

What we can somehow agree with: Rhino leaves something to be desired.

What we cannot agree on is his position in meta and what his role could be.

And because of that we cannot solve the question what to do.

 

I wouldn't say we all have to agree on something, but everything that is said, has been said multiple times already.

 

You're right. Though in all fairness, even professional design meetings tend to circle the same core issues until someone in charge makes a decision that all others must use as an anchor. There is rarely a moment where everyone really agrees, so much as there are moments where everyone understands that without someone picking something and just going forward with it....things will go nowhere. That is largely why there is a chain of command in development companies.

As just a bunch of random fans on a board, there is no chain of command here...

so our thoughts, ideas and opinions are just free to bounce around indefinitely.

[Bobtm]

 

Specific numbers aside-

Assuming we are going with the idea that Rhino is supposed to be a tank, then him having far better ability to withstand damage than all others is not inherently bad.

Assuming the energy keeps flowing too freely, then the issue of how easy it is to recast things for all frames has made the game too easy.

 

 

I think my biggest hang-up on the situation is how Warframe's style as a game sort of denies the general way in which "tanking" works due to the core of the game's mechanics.  Unlike standard RPG-esque games where one's damage output is largely dependant on the chosen "class" with weapons being notably more normalized, our damage here is primarily weapon based.  This style of play causes a massive issue (in my viewpoint) because tanking, as obvious as this is going to sound, ties directly to inherent survivability.

 

Basically, making a "tank" here ends up creating a character that effectively cannot die while also still killing everything without reduced effectiveness.  The obvious route here (to me) is to include a passive self-nerf to one's own damage to a notably large degree, I'm talking like -65% damage or more, upon their attempt at tanking.  However I've generally not even bothered suggesting this almost at all since I'm nearly certain that everyone would outright hate that idea.

 

That alone atop all the other issues, figuring out where the endgame balance lies, sorting out how much survivability is too much/not enough, etc. just makes the situation all the more... well an almost impossibility.  Stack that atop what you just noted above here;

 

 As just a bunch of random fans on a board, there is no chain of command here...

And things just become all the more impossible.

 

If we were gonna pick a "concept head" on this opperation I'd say the title could go either way between you Ronyn, or genin.  But even choosing someone in that reguard wouldn't do too much since the only folks who'd likely be willing to go along with a thought like that are the ones who are proposing mostly sensible stuff as is.  While the things that most often cause these tailspins are folks (who will not be named) coming back in here with blatantly terrible suggestions which are, at best broken.