Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[sanj66]

i dont think you all understand what lazyknight meant, ehp is an issue, as at low content it will always be a problem but at a specific level it may be balanced and at a higher tier it will seem like garbarge which is what is currently the problem, increasing numbers, tweaking numbers etc all just either expand or limit the problem already at hand, being too op at lower levels and not scaling well into late game. that was his point and he is quite correct.

[geninrising]

I have seen your ideas, and why are you talking about yourself?

Actually to be quite clear I am taking into account ALL of the "balanced for content" as well as all possible means of exploitation while ensuring that the changes are a viable solution to the issue as a whole, from the moment the ability is attained to the end of it's useful time frame. Unfortunately the idea you thought was acceptable back there of the over 12000 ehp was originally the OP's numbers which we all shot down, and so you subsequently coming in and supporting said numbers instantly pegged you as one that should refrain from talking numbers on this matter. Hence, why I asked you to not be involved in said matter of balance.

 

Additionally your only thought at that time or rather should I say the only thing you expressed was the idea that the stated amount would be fine for wave 40 when DE does not balance for content that high. and thus any skill balanced with that point in mind would be detrimental.

 

So in summation you criticized without knowing how things operate in this game and were asked to refrain from participating in the conversation due to said lack of knowledge. Simple Right? Also precisely what I stated.

 

The comment on your name saying it all was stated because your simple minded 2 lines of text neither provide example nor proposed solutions only criticism. In fact the only thing you have done thus far is attack others work rather than explain why it does not work or provide actionable solutions.

 

now in this post you actually start to show thought and broach concerns...https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-48#entry4332153

 

Perhaps think about ALL of your communiques and you can be taken for more than a new player without actual understanding of that which you trifle with. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

i dont think you all understand what lazyknight meant, ehp is an issue, as at low content it will always be a problem but at a specific level it may be balanced and at a higher tier it will seem like garbarge which is what is currently the problem, increasing numbers, tweaking numbers etc all just either expand or limit the problem already at hand, being too op at lower levels and not scaling well into late game. that was his point and he is quite correct.

Point taken and EHP might be at fault to begin with however, If we look for an entire change rather than a slight change we lose a unique mechanic and turn it into a copy of another power entirely. If we instead attempt to devise a formula which utilizes existing mechanics in such a way that we can get it balanced down to a workable solution regardless of enemy levels then it becomes actionable and far more likely to be implemented as the only thing that need be changed is a tiny number of variables already present within the system.

 

Another reason we have been through various iterations of a change on this post is because many individuals have brought up good points that we have viewed and measured collectively(amongst the major contributors of this thread) and come to a better position overall than before.

 

We currently have a good grasp on various elements that could cause IS to be extremely overpowered and are now trying to hammer out some features that can work within the games current scope of balance. Which is a bit shakey due to the developer withholding said knowledge(ie: they have never stated clearly their point of reference for balance) and so we must culminate our experience with regard to levels that power usefulness begins to fall off.

 

Additionally we are continuously looking at our various iterations to see if there are drawbacks that we can implement in various areas to offset power gained in order to further limit any possible iteration that is very strong. Once we get the idea sorted out and conceptualized we can then pass the buck to DE to finalize various elements for balancing within their scope of "balanced for content".

[Ronyn]

i dont think you all understand what lazyknight meant, ehp is an issue, as at low content it will always be a problem but at a specific level it may be balanced and at a higher tier it will seem like garbarge which is what is currently the problem, increasing numbers, tweaking numbers etc all just either expand or limit the problem already at hand, being too op at lower levels and not scaling well into late game. that was his point and he is quite correct.

I understood him and agreed with the idea that it is limited. Yet games are balanced for specific levels.

 

Let me speak to this directly- 

We need to be clear on what the problem at hand really is and by extension what the goal here should be.

We are not trying to create a version of iron skin that is balanced both for level 40 and level 60 content simultaneously.

The expectation that all abilities should function identically verses enemies with such a wide variances in power is unrealistic...

Sure we could certainly go through and systematically re-design each ability to scale infinitely like a few that do (binary powers do, percentage to a lesser degree, hard numbers the least) but then the weapons would still fall off in damage at some point.

So are we then going to re-design weapons to damage enemies based on percentages instead of hard numbers?

Do you see where this pursuit takes us? 

 

What game featuring vertical progression do you play where you can level way up, gear way up, add all kinds of bells and whistles to your toon..then expect to go back to lower level content and not just blow through it? That isn't how things work!

UNLESS there is a level select (effectively turning low levels into high ones) or some other system that flatlines power levels throughout (literally re-tuning numbers to a specific median) so it is always consistent.

 

Point being-Making it possible for a maxed out toon to balance against lesser content is not usually solved in the abilities themselves.

 

Again-The things in games are generally balanced for specific levels of content.

If we want to bring players back to the star chart that is another conversation.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[sanj66]

Point taken and EHP might be at fault to begin with however, If we look for an entire change rather than a slight change we lose a unique mechanic and turn it into a copy of another power entirely. If we instead attempt to devise a formula which utilizes existing mechanics in such a way that we can get it balanced down to a workable solution regardless of enemy levels then it becomes actionable and far more likely to be implemented as the only thing that need be changed is a tiny number of variables already present within the system.

 

Another reason we have been through various iterations of a change on this post is because many individuals have brought up good points that we have viewed and measured collectively(amongst the major contributors of this thread) and come to a better position overall than before.

 

We currently have a good grasp on various elements that could cause IS to be extremely overpowered and are now trying to hammer out some features that can work within the games current scope of balance. Which is a bit shakey due to the developer withholding said knowledge(ie: they have never stated clearly their point of reference for balance) and so we must culminate our experience with regard to levels that power usefulness begins to fall off.

 

Additionally we are continuously looking at our various iterations to see if there are drawbacks that we can implement in various areas to offset power gained in order to further limit any possible iteration that is very strong. Once we get the idea sorted out and conceptualized we can then pass the buck to DE to finalize various elements for balancing within their scope of "balanced for content".

this is the thing, all these "new" powers are just copies of what 2nd iteration iron skin was, so to say moving from ehp would make it a copy is not true, it would be restoring the power where it came from. the whole issue to me is ehp, it still makes the skill static and if that is the method then all the other "god" mode and mitigation skills should be converted as there is no reason to have those types of skills if the originator of that skill type which was designed as a tank or with tanking in mind deemed unworthy of it. if you go ehp you will always have the current issue of player complaints of easy at point x and useless at point y, that is a concept that shouldnt be happening if a skill is balanced or designed properly. the 2nd iteration of iron skin can work, but the trick to not make it op would be to have a condition should your shields go down, a capped mitigation % is established, that way your would not have an iron skin mitigation % of 85% stacked on top of an armor % of 60%because then the real damage you would take would be 60% of 15% which would be 9% of the initial damage, as 1170 shields is quite alot, lets say the cap is kept at 85% or even 80% at max, with an aoe aggro mechanic on cast or a pulse. that way new players if they proceed correctly they would not have a maxed redirection. steel fiber, vitality, (though like i said capping the % to a flat value and not mitigation on mitigation would render armor a bit useless except for base bulkiness) they would or supposedly face a relative damage scheme, as when i started playing, we didnt have trade years ago, at the end of mercury i had like just around 120% shields or maybe 160% at max, vitality wasnt high neither and i didnt have steel fiber. now sure with trade a player can bypass that but that would make it boring, but the same can be done with every other frame i can trade my mr 2 buddy a primed continuity for his loki, or that and a maxed fleeting expertise. but like i said a revert to a tweaked 2nd iteration may not be as bad, just make the overall mitigation while IS is active capped so you wouldnt have stacked mitigation and op qt builds.

[Ronyn]

if you go ehp you will always have the current issue of player complaints of easy at point x and useless at point y, that is a concept that shouldnt be happening if a skill is balanced or designed properly. 

No.  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-48#entry4332873

 

the 2nd iteration of iron skin can work, but the trick to not make it op would be to have a condition should your shields go down, a capped mitigation % is established, that way your would not have an iron skin mitigation % of 85% stacked on top of an armor % of 60%because then the real damage you would take would be 60% of 15% which would be 9% of the initial damage, as 1170 shields is quite alot, lets say the cap is kept at 85% or even 80% at max, with an aoe aggro mechanic on cast or a pulse. that way new players if they proceed correctly they would not have a maxed redirection. steel fiber, vitality, (though like i said capping the % to a flat value and not mitigation on mitigation would render armor a bit useless except for base bulkiness) they would or supposedly face a relative damage scheme, as when i started playing, we didnt have trade years ago, at the end of mercury i had like just around 120% shields or maybe 160% at max, vitality wasnt high neither and i didnt have steel fiber. now sure with trade a player can bypass that but that would make it boring, but the same can be done with every other frame i can trade my mr 2 buddy a primed continuity for his loki, or that and a maxed fleeting expertise. but like i said a revert to a tweaked 2nd iteration may not be as bad, just make the overall mitigation while IS is active capped so you wouldnt have stacked mitigation and op qt builds.

There are way's to make something like the second iteration work.

But there are some less than ideal aspects in the specifics proposed here.

 

For the record damage reduction abilities are also prone to making characters seem overpowered in early levels and will still hit a ceiling eventually.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[sanj66]

No.  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382685-bring-back-iron-skin-face-tanking/page-48#entry4332873

 

There are way's to make something like the second iteration work.

But there are some less than ideal aspects in the specifics proposed here.

 

For the record damage reduction abilities are also prone to making characters seem overpowered in early levels and will still hit a ceiling eventually.

tera actually does that with blast from the past instance matching. the problem is ehp stacking at lower levels would be easier or rather is easier due to the variety of mods that can affect it, where as mitigation % would be affected by frame level as well, and the only mod that might make it seem op is like i said if a newbie went out and bought a maxed redirection but his mitigation % lets say at level 1 would be a flat out like 50% supposedly, however in ehp stacking they can just buy every single mod out there and no matter the skill level they can accentuate it to an over powered level or even just half ranked mods would make it seem godly at lower levels.

Edited January 29, 2015 by sanj66

[LazyKnight]

Again-The things in games are generally balanced for specific levels of content.

If we want to bring players back to the star chart that is another conversation.

This would take a topic addressing the growth of NPC's damage (I do not want to create a topic about that right now). The reason why ehp work in many RPG and strategy games is because the DPS of the NPC stops increasing and it can be balanced against. 

 

If DE wants endless content to be filled stronger NPC, they do not need to have their DPS scale past what it is at level 60. By level 60, their damage output exceeds the player's tools to absorb it, and the NPC's health/armor/shields keeps increasing. DE could cap NPC's DPS growth and it would not make the content any easier.

 

People would still hit a wall when they could no longer kill the NPC quick enough, it would just make it so absorption skills had some degree of viability.

Edited January 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Ronyn]

tera actually does that with blast from the past instance matching. 

Indeed. Several games have things in place to allow for early content to be challenging again.

 

the problem is ehp stacking at lower levels would be easier or rather is easier due to the variety of mods that can affect it, where as mitigation % would be affected by frame level as well, and the only mod that might make it seem op is like i said if a newbie went out and bought a maxed redirection but his mitigation % lets say at level 1 would be a flat out like 50% supposedly, however in ehp stacking they can just buy every single mod out there and no matter the skill level they can accentuate it to an over powered level or even just half ranked mods would make it seem godly at lower levels.

Making sure frame level plays a part to keep things in check makes sense.Though frame level could effect EHP style abilities too.

Earlier geninrising and I were discussing what percentage of certain stats Iron Skin should pull from.

Whatever percentage we decided on, chances are the percentage would start smaller and grow as the ability ranked up.

 

Its not that I am against a version more similar to the second iteration of iron skin of course...

This would take a topic addressing the growth of NPC's damage (I do not want to create a topic about that right now). The reason why ehp work in many RPG and strategy games is because the DPS of the NPC stops increasing and it can be balanced against. 

 

If DE wants endless content to be filled stronger NPC, they do not need to have their DPS scale past what it is at level 60. By level 60, their damage output exceeds the player's tools to absorb it, and the NPC's health/armor/shields keeps increasing. DE could cap NPC's DPS growth and it would not make the content any easier.

 

People would still hit a wall when they could no longer kill the NPC quick enough, it would just make it so absorption skills had some degree of viability.

Point is-people still hit a wall unless EVERYTHING is built to scale infinitely.

And if it's not going to be everything, then we need a solid "end point" where we expect it all to end.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ronyn

[LazyKnight]

Point is-people still hit a wall unless EVERYTHING is built to scale infinitely.

And if it's not going to be everything, then we need a solid "end point" where we expect it all to end.

DE has not even clearly defined a 'line in the sand' for an indication on their version of the 'end point'. The current high end syndicate weapons in this game have to be balanced with NPC levels in the mid hundreds. <----This is not something that can be dismissed as intended for level 40s.

 

Player's ehp is balanced for Pluto, there are so many things that are balanced for the star-chart. 

[Cynaris]

48 pages of going in circles

 

Good job.

[Ronyn]

DE has not even clearly defined a 'line in the sand' for an indication on their version of the 'end point'. The current high end syndicate weapons in this game have to be balanced with NPC levels in the mid hundreds. <----This is not something that can be dismissed as intended for level 40s.

 

Player's ehp is balanced for Pluto, there are so many things that are balanced for the star-chart. 

There is nothing being dismissed.

I'm saying the game needs a clear end to balance, I never said DE has set one up correctly.

I have been complaining about the lack of clarity and consistency on where the real end is for a very long time.

 

Like I said before, when one of us proposes a numerical value for a power it's best to indicate what level we are calling end game.

Obviously the numbers on things will be different depending on what level the end game is supposed to be.

So If we are balancing for 40, make that clear. If we are balancing for 60, make that clear. etc...

 

Specific numbers vary based on the level of end game, but a solid set of mechanics will remain.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ronyn

[Renegade343]

Like I said before, when one of us proposes a numerical value for a power it's best to indicate what level we are calling end game.

Obviously the numbers on things will be different depending on what level the end game is supposed to be.

So If we are balancing for 40, make that clear. If we are balancing for 60, make that clear. etc...

I did recall that they balance for 50 from a Devstream, but I will need to recheck. 

[Holeypaladin]

The idea that me and Ronyn have discussed regarding scaling iron skin to shields, health, and armor seems to be the most balanced way to do it.  It would mean Rhino would have to devote a full seven mods towards iron skin in order to truly cap out its power, which would make it a specialist in one field rather than the generalist buffer/stomper he is right now.

 

While a roar build is currently the only endgame viable Rhino build, many Rhino players actually don't like that focus and would prefer an iron skin alternative that lets them draw enemy fire away from the team.

 

As for the whole "nerfing Rhino's damage" thing... he doesn't have much damage to begin with.  Stomp does a measly 800 damage compared to the 1500+ of most other nukes.  Roar is a team buff which helps his teammate more than it does himself, since his teammates are more likely to have more powerful nukes.  And charge is useless as a damage dealing power.  So really, he relies on his weapons alone.  Most other frames can rely on powerful nukes to kill entire rooms, but Rhino doesn't have that option as much.  That's about as traditionally tanky as you get.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Ever tried charge to bump into nullifiers? Knockdown this guy and the bombard :D

Who in the world would use that for damage?

 

And what is endgame anyways... I should just stop reading this thread.

[Holeypaladin]

 

And what is endgame anyways... 

Quite literally, endgame means "the end of the game."

 

Essentially, it's the type of missions people play once they've cleared all nodes on the star chart.

 

The most common type of "endgame" right now is the game known as "Warframe Prime: Gotta catch em all!"

 

The point of this game is to acquire all prime weapons and warframes from the void.  To do so often requires prolonged T4 missions for multiple shots at a rotation C reward.  Most people can't make it to the third rotation C, but most PUGs try for the second rotation C of T4 survival, defense, and interception.

 

That's essentially what "Endgame" currently is.  It is, of course, subject to change as new content is added.  That's called progressive endgame, and every game that's ever had an expansion has had progressive endgame.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[sanj66]

Indeed. Several games have things in place to allow for early content to be challenging again.

 

Making sure frame level plays a part to keep things in check makes sense.Though frame level could effect EHP style abilities too.

Earlier geninrising and I were discussing what percentage of certain stats Iron Skin should pull from.

Whatever percentage we decided on, chances are the percentage would start smaller and grow as the ability ranked up.

 

Its not that I am against a version more similar to the second iteration of iron skin of course...

Point is-people still hit a wall unless EVERYTHING is built to scale infinitely.

And if it's not going to be everything, then we need a solid "end point" where we expect it all to end.

well you see this is why i prefer the %, you see if you include IS to scale off more than 1 mod type or stat value it becomes easy to manipulate and easier to stack earlier on, lets say we go % for a duration, yes you can stack duration but you % mitigation wont increase until you level up the skill at specific intervals of frame leveling, the % can be adjusted to projected and averaged play time and progression to fit the relative content you may be at with a deviation just in case a player progresses a little faster but not by much. the only issue for this that i can see is having 3 of rhino's skills scale off duration, i would simply convert charge to range, that way you have a more diverse build for lack of a better word, if you go full duration 2 of your skills suffer, if you go efficiency 2 skills suffer, if you go full range similar, that is using corrupted builds. the reason i am also against ehp is it would generally also breed the same "lazy" type players that do give rhino's a bad name.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Quite literally, endgame means "the end of the game."

 

Essentially, it's the type of missions people play once they've cleared all nodes on the star chart.

 

The most common type of "endgame" right now is the game known as "Warframe Prime: Gotta catch em all!"

 

The point of this game is to acquire all prime weapons and warframes from the void.  To do so often requires prolonged T4 missions for multiple shots at a rotation C reward.  Most people can't make it to the third rotation C, but most PUGs try for the second rotation C of T4 survival, defense, and interception.

 

That's essentially what "Endgame" currently is.  It is, of course, subject to change as new content is added.  That's called progressive endgame, and every game that's ever had an expansion has had progressive endgame.

 

And you want to balance arround the lvl 60 version of highest dps enemies, then people will go to level 80 and call that endgame, following your logic.

[Ronyn]

I did recall that they balance for 50 from a Devstream, but I will need to recheck. 

I remember them making a statement about where the end game was supposed to be as well.

However, some of their actions don't match up with what they say.

This is why I feel there is a lack of of consistency and clarity.

[geninrising]

As a point to note here in trying to figure out an appropriate balance point. Rotation C is where the final rewards come from and would therefore be the most logical point to hinge this on. Going extra rounds is a matter of choice and subsequent danger is a consequence of said choice and the burden of the player to let skill determine their survival chance.

 

Also another thing to take into account in these talks is once Raids are implemented DE has stated that it will be player skill that allows them to acquire any rewards therein and it will be so difficult that many are expected to be unable to accomplish the task, thus I would surmise that raid rewards not be counted in the discussion as they are not meant to be acquirable by all players.

 

On the issue of percentages yes they will be able to scale appropriately per level of content however I feel that EHP has a more effective way to further survivabilty due to the fact that without a healer or massive health orbs ala Nekros our resident Front line frames are at a severe disadvantage when our stated goal is to allow them to tank in some form or fashion. The way EHP works allows said frames to ensure they are able to stay in the thick of things, The problem comes when dealing with higher and higher levels of enemies and more and more frequent spawns of said enemies.

 

I am amenable to the idea of a Rhino skin implemented that uses a damage cap/hits ideal like the nullifier's bubble and feel like that would be the quite possibly the most beneficial idea to ensure that people utilizing IS have that innate survivability without going into broken territory via any means. 

 

On the matter of that IS that scales from health shields and HP(we never included pwr str in that conversation, or at least Ronyn and I never did)

as sanj66 stated via so many mods it would be almost guaranteed to be able to create an IS that enemies throughout the star chart would fail to break always. However, enemies in higher levels would absolutely wreck said IS if it was not given a substantial boost in it's value. Some have suggested the 12600 figure from my total inclusion of shields health and armor. Unfortunately I simply cannot come to an agreement on that number by any means since in that proposal we also attempt to implement DR for IS which again feels broken easily.

 

So thus at this juncture in all our talks regarding various iterations, the one I find the least faulty or exploitable is the IS that requires X number of hits to collapse which would in essence guarantee you that tankiness for a certain period of time unless mistakes were made by the player with regards to management of the is lifetime. The only issue I can see at all with it is the inherent synergy of the Iron Shrapnel mod. To be honest, with any change to IS and it's function I feel that the Iron Shrapnel mod would need to go or have it's effect placed on approximately a minute cooldown.

Edited January 29, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

you see if you include IS to scale off more than 1 mod type or stat value it becomes easy to manipulate and easier to stack earlier on, 

 

What you call manipulate I call control. Its the ability to spec your frame the way you want them if you specialize.

Which to me is a good thing as long as it is within reason and I think it is.

Early on the frame only has so much energy for mods, and with that lower percentage applied to IS...

There really isn't a way to create some super high EHP on my version of IS with a new frame no matter how much platinum one has.

Sure having money is going to matter quite a bit for any frame but it can only go so far.

 

Also another thing to take into account in these talks is once Raids are implemented DE has stated that it will be player skill that allows them to acquire any rewards therein and it will be so difficult that many are expected to be unable to accomplish the task, thus I would surmise that raid rewards not be counted in the discussion as they are not meant to be acquirable by all players.

I agree that trying to balance around some theoretical raid that is for the best of the best would be unwise however...

I think the abstract idea of "requiring skill" is exactly why we need to be looking at the mechanics of powers to have a skill based component.

So whichever version we come to needs to factor that in.

 

On the issue of percentages yes they will be able to scale appropriately per level of content

I disagree. Any DR percentage that would be functional at level 60 would be too strong at level 40.The same problem persists. 

I stand by my stance that this is whole "a power needs to create the right level of challenge at level 40 and level 60 enemies" is expecting too much.

 

On the matter of that IS that scales from health shields and HP(we never included pwr str in that conversation, or at least Ronyn and I never did)

as sanj66 stated via so many mods it would be almost guaranteed to be able to create an IS that enemies throughout the star chart would fail to break always. However, enemies in higher levels would absolutely wreck said IS if it was not given a substantial boost in it's value. Some have suggested the 12600 figure from my total inclusion of shields health and armor. Unfortunately I simply cannot come to an agreement on that number by any means since in that proposal we also attempt to implement DR for IS which again feels broken easily.

 

In my proposal power strength specifically did not improve iron skin in any way. 

That is an intentional design meant to separate the effectiveness of iron skin (direct mitigation) from the effectiveness of his other powers (offense)

As for the agreement (or lack of) on the specific numerical values...

I think we (you and I at least) could reach a generally good number with a bit more work on it. 

As I said earlier, we need to settle on a mechanic of exactly what and how grabbing aggro increases Iron Skin.

Just tell me what you think the base and cap for iron skin should be (for what level of enemy) and I think I could sort it out.

 

 

So thus at this juncture in all our talks regarding various iterations, the one I find the least faulty or exploitable is the IS that requires X number of hits to collapse which would in essence guarantee you that tankiness for a certain period of time unless mistakes were made by the player with regards to management of the is lifetime.

The problem there is some enemies have rapid fire weapon and some enemies have high power per shot weapons.

If one happens to go up against a few enemies with machine guns iron skin would be whittled down quickly even in early levels.

Where as an EHP version is more consistent regardless of what weapon an enemy brings to the table. 

 

Again, if we want players to have more diverse level maps to play, bring old areas to maxed out players....

we are looking at the wrong source here.

 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

1. I agree that trying to balance around some theoretical raid that is for the best of the best would be unwise however...

I think the abstract idea of "requiring skill" is exactly why we need to be looking at the mechanics of powers to have a skill based component.

So whichever version we come to needs to factor that in.

 

2. I disagree. Any DR percentage that would be functional at level 60 would be too strong at level 40.The same problem persists. 

I stand by my stance that this is whole "a power needs to create the right level of challenge at level 40 and level 60 enemies" is expecting too much.

 

 

In my proposal power strength specifically did not improve iron skin in any way. 

That is an intentional design meant to separate the effectiveness of iron skin (direct mitigation) from the effectiveness of his other powers (offense)

As for the agreement (or lack of) on the specific numerical values...

I think we (you and I at least) could reach a generally good number with a bit more work on it. 

As I said earlier, we need to settle on a mechanic of exactly what and how grabbing aggro increases Iron Skin.

Just tell me what you think the base and cap for iron skin should be (for what level of enemy) and I think I could sort it out.

 

 

3. The problem there is some enemies have rapid fire weapon and some enemies have high power per shot weapons.

If one happens to go up against a few enemies with machine guns iron skin would be whittled down quickly even in early levels.

Where as an EHP version is more consistent regardless of what weapon an enemy brings to the table. 

 

1.Agreed. I definitely feel as though 90% of powers are missing a skill component to allow players to use said skills further and further into content where it normally would not be efficacious.

 

2. The problem I see with that assessment is that enemies that do a high damage amount per shot will cause the same effect on an EHP IS. It honestly feels almost as though we cannot make it effective without it being supremely over powered. That's why I suggested wave 20 in t4 defense is an appropriate balance point because if we make it balanced for targets above said wave it becomes more and more over powered in lesser content. The number of hits thing allows Rhino to perform a  threat assessment and combine his CC with the IS tankiness to eliminate priority threats to his survivability thus broaching the skill issue.

 

Given that most enemies favor automatic weapons it will behoove the Rhino to also think about cover and LoS dynamically while in motion to eliminate said threats. Whereas with the EHP Rhino it is entirely about how long he can go before IS is one shot, which is not skill based at all. Thus no matter how good the player is it will always come to Rhino eating a nullifier round or a rocket that completely wipes the IS.

 

If given that we work on a DR form of IS could we not implement a damage cap like with the nullifier shields to allow Rhino a certain leeway to work with while performing threat maintenance?

 

Honestly what I want to come to eventually is a point where Rhino can be allowed enough time to BARE MINIMUM pick up a downed ally without joining them in said state. While I feel IS should have a skill based component I do not feel it's effectiveness(baseline) should be predicated on the skill component. I feel that the skill component should be an extender to it's effectiveness allowing it to function beyond normal capacity. 

[sanj66]

the amount of hits per IS i think would be better than ehp, as it can be used with stomp, to stomp area x or mob group x, and the # of hits can help with reviving an ally if another group of mobs spawn etc. it however does not make you a bullet shield as no matter how much damage a bullet does it will take a % or % of a % off your IS or a hit off your hit counter. yes i understand at lower levels you wont have as much mod power for the frame but, you can stack lower levels of more mods, like rank 3-4 of redirection, vit and steel fiber also remember he has D polarities to slot these into. so to me a hit counter or like i suggested a flat out DR % that once IS is active it is your % mitigation, whether your shields are up or you are down to hp, hence not stacking mitigation upon an already reduced damage value, which i believe someone raised as an issue and rightfully so earlier as then you enter a whole new type of god mode especially with a QT build as damage received on stacked mitigation would be really low and quite absurd. if you go straight up ehp and say balance around lvl 60, in all honesty at least from my thoughts, that would be even more powerful at lvl 40 content than a mitigation %, as it would present an almost unpenetrable bullet wall as far as i see. as we all know the game is about numbers and a 20 level gap on an ehp system would prove a wider unbalanced iteration.

[Demiax]

Rhino needs to be changed... his appearance, his abilities... he needs a rework... nuff said.

[Ronyn]

the amount of hits per IS i think would be better than ehp, as it can be used with stomp, to stomp area x or mob group x, and the # of hits can help with reviving an ally if another group of mobs spawn etc. it however does not make you a bullet shield as no matter how much damage a bullet does it will take a % or % of a % off your IS or a hit off your hit counter.

Anything can and should be used with concert with his other powers....thats not really the issue here. Moving on...

I thought the goal here was to create a situation where Rhino could become a Bullet shield (face tank) without it being overpowered.

On that note, if Iron skin has enough ticks to survive a real onslaught of fire then the only real difference between that version and an EHP version is what the variance comes from. But really..how many ticks are we talking about? 

 

yes i understand at lower levels you wont have as much mod power for the frame but, you can stack lower levels of more mods, like rank 3-4 of redirection, vit and steel fiber also remember he has D polarities to slot these into. so to me a hit counter or like i suggested a flat out DR % that once IS is active it is your % mitigation, whether your shields are up or you are down to hp, hence not stacking mitigation upon an already reduced damage value, which i believe someone raised as an issue and rightfully so earlier as then you enter a whole new type of god mode especially with a QT build as damage received on stacked mitigation would be really low and quite absurd.

 

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Hold on. 

Whether or not the mechanics I suggested would create too high of EHP is a matter of the percentage gained.

That's mathematical fact, not a matter of opinion. Look at the numbers.

The mechanic using only ten percent of stats gained results in an extremely weak iron skin, that same mechanic using 30 percent of stats gained is still below current max IS values. That same mechanic only starts to match up to current IS values at about 40 percent and that takes 4 dedicated mods to do it. So until we start talking about near 50 percent we haven't actually even buffed iron skin beyond its current max. 

And of course, the question of what exactly is gained per enemy aggro'ed is still undecided.

(Which is a conditional aspect that could be applied to any version to bring more skill into the fold)

Anyway It all comes back to the math. What percentage is gained? What is the base? What is the cap?

Anyone just jumping to "its too strong" when it could just as easily be too weak is making an assumption about the numerical values.

 

Really, its as simple as setting the top and bottom. Example: The base EHP for Iron Skin is 4000 with all the right mods and the max it can reach under any circumstances is 6000 EHP. Then set the percentages and things to create that. 

 

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As for early stacking, like I said. The idea of control is actually a good thing in my book.

In normal circumstances it gives the player REAL choice in what they build their frame for.

Granted it could get off kilter with enough platinum combined with a group of very smart purchases

BTW now we are trying to reign in some theoretical new player who has both the money and enough foreknowledge about the game to create an over powered Iron Skin. What percentage of a player base is that really aimed at?

But ok sure..let's go with it...

You're proposing that this theoretical level 10 rhino prime with low ranked redirection, vitality and steel fiber, gaining something small like only 10 percent of those stats for iron skin would be too strong for the content he is in? OK. I'm sure the market would allow an overpowered situation where the regular mods available at that time would not.

But then isn't it also true that just about any frame, all decked out with all the right stuff from the trade chat, would be way out of the league of the content they are facing?  

 

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 if you go straight up ehp and say balance around lvl 60, in all honesty at least from my thoughts, that would be even more powerful at lvl 40 content than a mitigation %, as it would present an almost unpenetrable bullet wall as far as i see. as we all know the game is about numbers and a 20 level gap on an ehp system would prove a wider unbalanced iteration.

Give me some math on the percentage version. How does it not create a similar problem?

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ronyn