Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Roar is a different story... since he's useless as a tank now, damage support from roar is his ONLY function right now. I love how quickly you throw stomp out the window there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, of all the warframes with tanky abilities, Rhino is the worst. That makes him the worst tank. The others aren't tanks at all, nor are they intended to be, but if you consider all of the damage reduction abilities in the game.... iron skin is the absolute worst at high levels. Nor are they intended to be Mirage,Mesa,Trinity Ladies and gentleman I REST MY CASE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Stomp isn't a very great power. It's ok, but it's not in the same league as chaos, radial disarm, etc. And it only lasts 8 seconds. More importantly, this topic is about how Rhino prime needs to be the tank that the rhino prime codex describes him as. Edited January 13, 2015 by Holeypaladin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Stomp isn't a very great power. It's ok, but it's not in the same league as chaos, radial disarm, etc. And it only lasts 8 seconds. More importantly, this topic is about how Rhino needs to be the tank that the rhino prime codex describes him as. "Only" lasts 8 seconds Edited January 13, 2015 by Azawarau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, ONLY 8 seconds. For 100 base energy. Compared to the old iron skin which gave you invincibility for longer than that for half the energy cost, that's nothing. There's nothing you can do with the enemies unable to move that you can't do while invincible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Iron Skin has no need to be an easy way to be careless. other Abilities fill this pool as well. being completely invulnerable without any risk or challenge involved or being near invulnerable on the same means is bland and uninteresting. the best form of extreme survivability we currently have is using Blessing to make the team Invulnerable. it has risk involved, and as Levels increase becomes more and more difficult to pull off safely. and that balances it's capability for Invulnerability. the other extreme Damage Reduction or Invulnerability Abilities that we have, lack this completely. no risk or challenge involved, just press button to get cookie. and here's a fair way to make Iron Skin useful. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/379164-iron-skin-should-be-like-shatter-shield/#entry4179332 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 doubleposting because autoformatting. Rhino was always intended to be a facetank rather than a support tank. [Citation Needed]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) doubleposting because autoformatting. [Citation Needed]. Citations: Rhino's codex. Rhino prime's codex. Original iron skin. Iron skin iteration 2. Iron skin iteration 3 when it first came out (1200 damage was a lot of damage to absorb back then, since very few people had maxed redirection and vitality). The removal of overheat. Iron skin's old taunt affect. Pretty much everything that happened before Valkyr was introduced, had Rhino pegged as the top tank. Since Valkyr they've kind of forgotten Rhino exists and just made more tanky girl frames. Edited January 13, 2015 by Holeypaladin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 To be fair Of all his powers charge has the least use arguably Its not a terrible loss True. It sure ain't great right now. That is part of the problem. This leads to the question.... How are we ever going to get charge in a good useful place if the better builds for rhino work against it''s use? Of course I don't think that iron skin stats should scale based on power strength but on other, defense focused mods. Powers should not scale so well with with Spam-Caster builds on non caster frames. DE needs to re-examine what improves from what if they are every going to find a real sense of balance in this game. Yes, ONLY 8 seconds. For 100 base energy. Compared to the old iron skin which gave you invincibility for longer than that for half the energy cost, that's nothing. There's nothing you can do with the enemies unable to move that you can't do while invincible. Well........Immobile enemies don't hurt your allies. That is useful for the team. Even an Invincible version of iron skin wouldn't prevent allies from getting hurt unless rhino is standing in between them... and that isn't realistic for more than a couple enemies unless we have a strong taunt effect added to iron skin to actually grab enough enemy attention to keep them off of the allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Iron skin DID have a taunt affect. It was removed. But it used to draw enemy fire away from the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluelitHalo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sure, Rhino may not be the "tankiest" of Warframes, but he's still the "heaviest" of them. I see him as more of a brutish character than a straight up tank, shifting the battlefield in his own macho manner by being a Roar/Stomp machine. Besides, Mesa's Shatter Shield can't absorb status effects or melee hits, and Valkyr absolutely needs her tanky abilities since she's a frame that's geared for a melee playstyle in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Heavy == tanky. That's the definition of heavy units in military terms. Tanks are heavy units. Heavy tanks have thicker armor than light tanks. So they mean the absolute same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Iron skin DID have a taunt affect. It was removed. But it used to draw enemy fire away from the rest of the team. I remember. A taunt effect is still there in a very, very weak way.... I was just making it clear what mechanics have to be in play for iron skin to be useful for the team. Too often these conversation get's focused just on iron skin being more sturdy, if he is going to "tank" it helps if it is more than just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) ---- For the record I agree with the core idea that rhino should be THe tank (along with frost in a different way) because those are the only two frames stated to be tanks in their official videos. Though I don't like the idea of a prime and a normal frame having strong differences like you suggest..... 1.) False. Rhi Pri's codex is pretty much the most recently re-written one. It still pegs him as the "tank" frame. Yeah see....always someone trying to discount any information that classifies rhino as a/the tank. But as it stands, all descriptions of him suggest if not blatantly sate that he is. If his in game mechanics aren't entirely lining up with that something is off. Edited January 13, 2015 by Ronyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UseNet Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You made a thread about this yesterday, why didn't you just continue that thread instead of cancering the place up with another exact same thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 This one is more about differentiating rhino prime from rhino, the other was about Rhino's tankiness in general. Slightly different topic, but people seem to restate the same things in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Citations: Rhino's codex. Rhino prime's codex. Original iron skin. Iron skin iteration 2. Iron skin iteration 3 when it first came out (1200 damage was a lot of damage to absorb back then, since very few people had maxed redirection and vitality). The removal of overheat. Iron skin's old taunt affect. Pretty much everything that happened before Valkyr was introduced, had Rhino pegged as the top tank. Since Valkyr they've kind of forgotten Rhino exists and just made more tanky girl frames. Taunt effect supports support tanking ore than face tanking A face tank would be better off not attracting extra uneeded aggro This is ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Lube Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 1: i hope you do relize that rhino has not has his Codex updated since he was released, which was like 2 years ago. 2: have you tryed any of rhino's other abilitys? 3: Rhino has more then 2x default armour then Mesa with Mesa being at 65 (i think) and like 10x more armour then Mirarge (at 15) just think about that for a second 4: Please don't make the "Prime should be better then the default ones" because it would make the game too un-fair for those who have already max build their normal Rhino and choose not to move over. 5: are you asking for this change becasue rhino is to useless right now in game game becasue his one and only skill "iron skin" dose not make him god like after level 30+ and should make him God like till leve 100++ I don't remember Warframe being two years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Incorrect. Face tanks have always been all about "Shoot me in the face and watch your bullets bounce off while my friend stabs you in the back" It's a pretty useful tank and spank strategy, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidrek Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Make Iron Skin percentage based, rather than time or health based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, ONLY 8 seconds. For 100 base energy. Compared to the old iron skin which gave you invincibility for longer than that for half the energy cost, that's nothing. There's nothing you can do with the enemies unable to move that you can't do while invincible. So let me get this straight Youre comparing a broken removed mechanic to a more balanced still in game mechanic? You just want to run around on easy mode True. It sure ain't great right now. That is part of the problem. This leads to the question.... How are we ever going to get charge in a good useful place if the better builds for rhino work against it''s use? Of course I don't think that iron skin stats should scale based on power strength but on other, defense focused mods. Powers should not scale so well with with Spam-Caster builds on non caster frames. DE needs to re-examine what improves from what if they are every going to find a real sense of balance in this game. They will soon... Iron skin DID have a taunt affect. It was removed. But it used to draw enemy fire away from the rest of the team. Which again shows he was meant to be a support tank its like a wall Im typing text to a wall Heavy == tanky. That's the definition of heavy units in military terms. Tanks are heavy units. Heavy tanks have thicker armor than light tanks. So they mean the absolute same thing. Wait wait so your argument is we should apply cliches to everything? Oh boy you are a real piece of work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holeypaladin Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Make Iron Skin percentage based, rather than time or health based. This. This exactly. My idea was for 75%, scaling to power strength like all the other percentage based reductions except Trinity's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Incorrect. Face tanks have always been all about "Shoot me in the face and watch your bullets bounce off while my friend stabs you in the back" It's a pretty useful tank and spank strategy, really. Yeah see theres a thing about that Tanking shots and attracting aggro are two different parts of tanking One involves face tanking and the other involves support Rhino was built around support This. This exactly. My idea was for 75%, scaling to power strength like all the other percentage based reductions except Trinity's. 75% base is ridiculous Youre invalidating valkyr entirely Edited January 13, 2015 by Azawarau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 They will soon... They will what exactly? I know they are supposed to be looking at balance in general but has there been any word on them looking at what stats effect powers? Which again shows he was meant to be a support tank its like a wall Maybe, maybe not. Consider this: DE has made several changes, some stick, some revert, some make sense at the time then not later... etc. they have said that themselves. So getting rid of rhinos ability to effectively draw aggro may not be something that is right for the frame in the current meta. Besides, are we supposed to not ask for certain ability tweaks we think are best for the game just because DE may or may not feel differently? Wait wait so your argument is we should apply cliches to everything? I don't think that "cliche" is really fair to call that. When DE called rhino the "heaviest frame" in the flavor text they obviously want to evoke some kind of combat related imagery and not just "this guys weighs a lot". Thinking they were speaking in military terms is the most reasonable way to take that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I remember. A taunt effect is still there in a very, very weak way.... I was just making it clear what mechanics have to be in play for iron skin to be useful for the team. Too often these conversation get's focused just on iron skin being more sturdy, if he is going to "tank" it helps if it is more than just that. Well, the two things are linked - the reason the aggro draw aspect got chucked was due to the fact that we (rightly) pointed out way back when that an Iron Skin that didn't scale simply no longer had the "oomph" to make drawing a bullseye on your face for every gun in range anything other than a liability for high-level play, which is when you'd most need that sort of utility. So it's kinda been in an awkward spot since. The old duration-based IS was in a better position, mechanics/gameplay-wise; even if flat invincibility was too much, the skill was typically used in the role it was meant to be used in - e.g. friendly down? Pop IS and eat the bullets so you can go rez him/her and get 'em back in the fight. As-is, at higher levels, it's simply not viable to use it in that sort of role anymore since it lasts for less time than the cast animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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