If/when Serration Is Removed, Don't Forget To Make The Other Mods Worthwhile

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Earlier this week I made a topic ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/384697-when-the-base-damage-mods-are-removed-dont-forget-to-rebalance-the-elementals-and-multishot-mods/#entry4243943 ) asking DE to change the damage component of all mods if/when they do so for the base damage mods. However, on it's own, the removal of Serration doesn't make Ammo Drum worthwhile. Here, I will suggest changes to existing mods that no one uses:

Ammo Drum: 5 ranks at 20% ammo increase per rank, with a max of 100% ammo increase. Base cost increased to 4.

Continuous Misery: 5 ranks at 40% status length increase per rank, with a max of 200% status length increase.

Eagle Eye: No salvaging this one. For snipers, I suggest offering a "scope mod" as a kind of stance mod or aura, changing how we ADS and how much zoom we have for doing so.

Fast Hands: 5 ranks at 20% reload speed increase per rank, for a max of 100% (Note: a 100% reload speed increase means it takes half the time to reload).

Magazine Warp: 3 ranks at 20% increase per rank, for a max of 60% larger magazines.

Rifle Aptitude: 3 ranks at 40% increase per rank, for a max of 120% status increase. Base cost increased to 6.

Stabilizer: Base cost decreased to 2. 5 ranks at 12.5% increase per rank, for a max of 62.5% recoil reduction.

I also suggest the shotgun category be removed. Shotguns will use the same mods as all other weapons, as the separate shotgun category is a holdover from Damage 1.0 that serves little value. The Corrupted Mods for shotguns will exist as special shotgun only mods, similar to mods like Firestorm for launchers and Ammo Mutators for their category.

Pistol mods are very much like rifle ones. They will follow the same balance changes.

Finally, conditional mods will also be added.

Edited January 17, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[xethier]

also, mob scaling should be addressed concurrently with this mods removal. (should it come to pass that serration is axed)

[GinKenshin]

fast hands will do 100% reload speed decrease? then why the hell did I buy the primed fast hands (max 55%) XD

[Feallike]

At the moment its probably going to be changed. Since theirs 150 votes for it to be changed, and 170 for it to be removed. Sooo its probably going to be removed or changed.

 

 

Serration removal = Mob changes. Which means more things to constimize. 

 

 

By the way the absolutely dumbest thing i have ever heard is "Serration shouldn't be removed because i spent months fusing it" < That is the worse excuse to vote NO for serration removal.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

fast hands will do 100% reload speed decrease? then why the hell did I buy the primed fast hands (max 55%) XD

With the way I'm calculating reload speed increase, that would be roughly a 110-115% increase (don't feel like doing the actual math, just an estimate). I'm open to rebalancing the primed mods, but I'm not familiar with them as a PS4 player.

[xethier]

Eagle Eye: No salvaging this one. For snipers, I suggest offering a "scope mod" as a kind of stance mod or aura, changing how we ADS and how much zoom we have for doing so.

 

 

actually....

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/385551-seriously-stop-making-weapons-with-no-ads-aim-down-sight/

 

if you modified the system to allow ADS aiming on weapons that currently don't have it. (buzlok / quanta / mutalist quanta / panthera / etc) using this mod to add that functionality... it would be a band-aid, but it would certainly make the mod useful again.

[Sidathe]

Serration removal = Mob changes. Which means more things to constimize. 

 

By the way the absolutely dumbest thing i have ever heard is "Serration shouldn't be removed because i spent months fusing it" < That is the worse excuse to vote NO for serration removal.

Also balance issues for weeks or months...well, more extreme balance issues. :P

[Azamagon]

There is just one thing I have to ask:

 

This part

The shotgun category is going to be removed. Shotguns will use the same mods as all other weapons, as the separate shotgun category is a holdover from Damage 1.0 that serves little value. The Corrupted Mods for shotguns will exist as special shotgun only mods, similar to mods like Firestorm for launchers and Ammo Mutators for their category.

is that your suggestion, or did DE say that this will happen?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

There is just one thing I have to ask:

 

This part

is that your suggestion, or did DE say that this will happen?

My suggestion. I will clarify in the OP.

[XAN3MK]

I'm not sure if what I'll say is relevant directly to the topic, but it is relevant to the subject overall.

 

I don't think removing Serration will fix anything at all and that is marginally due to how the statistics and damage system function in Warframe. From my point of view, removing Serration will just open another slot for an elemental mod. It will obviously not scale as well and the overal damage output in the game will be reduced, but nothing will change in terms of how we mod our weapons. This is a result of damage being present through many different pipelines and since damage, whether raw or elemental is preferable over other statistics, it will remain the go-to foundation for weapon modding.

 

Now, this is not saying that your suggestions are bad, but they are utterly irrelevant in the face of mods that directly affect the damage output of the weapon and are at best bandaids for the shortcomings of those weapons. Let me clerify:

 

Ammo efficiency is very important when going on a long and/or endless runs, but there are weapons present in the game, usually some of the top-end weapons, that are very ammo efficient and have a steady ammo economy. The changes mentioned in the OP will make close to 0 difference on these weapons since they'll benefit more from damage mods. Obviously, there are the weapons who have a sub-par or inneficient ammo economy which will benefit from these types of mods, but then we bring up the question "Why would you use that weapon over the ammo efficient one?", which is a valid question, since the efficient weapon most likely has a more consistent damage output, both as a result of having better ammo management and more slots dedicated to damage mods.

 

In an attempt to make this more focused -- Serration is not the real culprit here and its removal is just tinkering with the symptoms instead of targeting the disease, so to speak. Taking in coniseration all the elemental mods that are now present in the game, regardless of whether we have Serration or not, the two main avenues for weapon modding will still be the rainbow builds and the crit builds, with status builds being a modification of the first, and the removal of Serration will make no difference at all in this regard. -

- and this is w/o mentioning the elephant in the room that is the terrible design of over 3/4 of the weapons in the game which are absolutely useless in the face of the top dogs. A huge portion of Warframe's arsenal is completely a waste of time, gimmicky and inneficient in the face of the Soma's and Boltor P's (or the explosive weapons for that matter)

 

To be able to even remotely fix this imaginary problem that Serration is creating, Warframe needs to completely revise how the weapons are designed and to make sure they are properly tiered and/or gated on the progression curve, but even more important how the available arsenal is reflecting on the environment towards which it is balanced.

 

tl;dr Removing Serration fixes bugger all, the problem lies elsewhere and it is far bigger than just scalable damage.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I'm not sure if what I'll say is relevant directly to the topic, but it is relevant to the subject overall.

 

I don't think removing Serration will fix anything at all and that is marginally due to how the statistics and damage system function in Warframe. From my point of view, removing Serration will just open another slot for an elemental mod. It will obviously not scale as well and the overal damage output in the game will be reduced, but nothing will change in terms of how we mod our weapons. This is a result of damage being present through many different pipelines and since damage, whether raw or elemental is preferable over other statistics, it will remain the go-to foundation for weapon modding.

 

Now, this is not saying that your suggestions are bad, but they are utterly irrelevant in the face of mods that directly affect the damage output of the weapon and are at best bandaids for the shortcomings of those weapons. Let me clerify:

 

Ammo efficiency is very important when going on a long and/or endless runs, but there are weapons present in the game, usually some of the top-end weapons, that are very ammo efficient and have a steady ammo economy. The changes mentioned in the OP will make close to 0 difference on these weapons since they'll benefit more from damage mods. Obviously, there are the weapons who have a sub-par or inneficient ammo economy which will benefit from these types of mods, but then we bring up the question "Why would you use that weapon over the ammo efficient one?", which is a valid question, since the efficient weapon most likely has a more consistent damage output, both as a result of having better ammo management and more slots dedicated to damage mods.

 

In an attempt to make this more focused -- Serration is not the real culprit here and its removal is just tinkering with the symptoms instead of targeting the disease, so to speak. Taking in coniseration all the elemental mods that are now present in the game, regardless of whether we have Serration or not, the two main avenues for weapon modding will still be the rainbow builds and the crit builds, with status builds being a modification of the first, and the removal of Serration will make no difference at all in this regard. -

- and this is w/o mentioning the elephant in the room that is the terrible design of over 3/4 of the weapons in the game which are absolutely useless in the face of the top dogs. A huge portion of Warframe's arsenal is completely a waste of time, gimmicky and inneficient in the face of the Soma's and Boltor P's (or the explosive weapons for that matter)

 

To be able to even remotely fix this imaginary problem that Serration is creating, Warframe needs to completely revise how the weapons are designed and to make sure they are properly tiered and/or gated on the progression curve, but even more important how the available arsenal is reflecting on the environment towards which it is balanced.

 

tl;dr Removing Serration fixes bugger all, the problem lies elsewhere and it is far bigger than just scalable damage.

The post I linked to directly deals with rainbow builds and other damage mods.

[Eric1738]

not sure why some players are so persistent in the removing serration thing... the objective of the discussion is to make mod system more balanced, or more diversified. do we feel Redirection/vitality is "staple" and has to be removed? no, because we can choose either not to use it or have other options like Quick Thinking/Flow. so instead of removing serration, why not just introduce more options, or tweak the numbers so serration is not always necessary

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

not sure why some players are so persistent in the removing serration thing... the objective of the discussion is to make mod system more balanced, or more diversified. do we feel Redirection/vitality is "staple" and has to be removed? no, because we can choose either not to use it or have other options like Quick Thinking/Flow. so instead of removing serration, why not just introduce more options, or tweak the numbers so serration is not always necessary

Warframes need several things to be worthwhile: they need to be able to kill, move, and survive and also use abilities that further add to what they do (crowd control, team buffing, healing, etc.).

Weapons only need to be able to kill. It's very difficult to introduce options that are more helpful to killing than pure damage, especially when it comes in the amounts Serration offers. Perhaps if Serration were a R3 mod with a 15-20% boost it would be balanced, but at that point is it really the Serration we're used to?

Edited January 17, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Eric1738]

Warframes need several things to be worthwhile: they need to be able to kill, move, and survive and also use abilities that further add to what they do (crowd control, team buffing, healing, etc.).

Weapons only need to be able to kill. It's very difficult to introduce options that are more helpful to killing than pure damage, especially when it comes in the amounts Serration offers. Perhaps if Serration were a R3 mod with a 15-20% boost it would be balanced, but at that point is it really the Serration we're used to?

more options are still possible. for example, making serration and heavy calibre mutually exclusive. change heavy calibre to 20%damage-5%accuracy per rank. so you will actually make a decision. still not good engouh? introduce a similar mod +12.5% damage+5% attack speed per rank. i'm pretty sure some of the weapons like some more attack speed over damage. in the end we will still have a so-called base damage mod for each weapon, but the slight difference can make modding more interesting

Edited January 17, 2015 by Eric1738

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

more options are still possible. for example, making serration and heavy calibur mutually exclusive. change heavy calibur to 20%damage-5%accuracy per rank. so you will actually make a decision. still not good engouh? introduce a similar mod +12.5% damage+5% attack speed per rank. i'm pretty sure some of the weapons like some more attack speed over damage. in the end we will still have a so-called base damage mod for each weapon, but the slight difference can make modding more interesting

But think about what that actual decision is. The real choice is between 45% attack speed/fire rate and extra 70% damage. For the Heavy Caliber one, the actual choice is between having 15% more damage or 45% better accuracy. You aren't adding more choices by adding these. You're offering the same choices, but leaving as many worthless mods as before. Besides, the rainbow builds will still be there. It doesn't actually fix many of the problems.

What I suggest actually fixes these problems. The downside is that it's more work. But I don't want another quick change that doesn't solve anything, and I hope DE's coming to the realization that those don't help.

[PeggyBundy]

At the moment its probably going to be changed. Since theirs 150 votes for it to be changed, and 170 for it to be removed. Sooo its probably going to be removed or changed.

Where's this poll?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Where's this poll?

Hot Topics.

[Eric1738]

But think about what that actual decision is. The real choice is between 45% attack speed/fire rate and extra 70% damage. For the Heavy Caliber one, the actual choice is between having 15% more damage or 45% better accuracy. You aren't adding more choices by adding these. You're offering the same choices, but leaving as many worthless mods as before. Besides, the rainbow builds will still be there. It doesn't actually fix many of the problems.

What I suggest actually fixes these problems. The downside is that it's more work. But I don't want another quick change that doesn't solve anything, and I hope DE's coming to the realization that those don't help.

the numbers are of course arbitrary. of course some of the "bad mods" need to be improved, but it should not be at the cost of removing serration. these days many top tier weapons use serration AND heavy calibre, because they have good accuracy to begin with. my suggestion will make players at most use one base damage mods, and that frees up some slots people can work with.

on the rainbow builds, it's more about the damage 2.0 making players use rainbow build. that's another problem

Edited January 17, 2015 by Eric1738

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

the numbers are of course arbitrary. of course some of the "bad mods" need to be improved, but it should not be at the cost of removing serration. these days many top tier weapons use serration AND heavy calibre, because they have good accuracy to begin with. my suggestion will make players at most use one base damage mods, and that frees up some slots people can work with.

But that spot will just be filled with another damage mod, be it event physical, Bane, or elemental.

[Eric1738]

But that spot will just be filled with another damage mod, be it event physical, Bane, or elemental.

as if removing serration wont result in the same... bad mods are bad, unless DE improve them significantly. anexample of good utility mod is ammo mutation mod. they arent damage mod, yet they have their use, and worth a mod slot. same goes for ammo drum, if they are good enough, they can be favored over pure damage mod

anyway, my point is, we dont have to remove serration to make other mods good, we can buff them to be good

Edited January 17, 2015 by Eric1738

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

as if removing serration wont result in the same... bad mods are bad, unless DE improve them significantly. a good utility mod is ammo mutation mod. they arent damage mod, yet they have their use, and worth a mod slot. same goes for ammo drum, if they are good enough, they can be favored over pure damage mod

anyway, my point is, we dont have to remove serration to make other mods good, we can buff them to be good

Please read my other thread linked above. It directly addresses the other damage mods.

A few of these mods might be used with the proposed buffs, even in the world of Serration and the like. But, excluding the status mods, they would only reduce the actual damage output of weapons, because weapons without the deficiencies requiring these mods would just add damage instead of adding these mods.

[Eric1738]

Please read my other thread linked above. It directly addresses the other damage mods.

A few of these mods might be used with the proposed buffs, even in the world of Serration and the like. But, excluding the status mods, they would only reduce the actual damage output of weapons, because weapons without the deficiencies requiring these mods would just add damage instead of adding these mods.

this is not always true. why ammo mutation mods are good? because for those weapons using ammo mutation, they need constant supply of ammo to maintain dps, so more ammo=more damage. in a sense it is equivalent to a damage mod. same goes for reload, clip size  "weak" mods. they both improve dps in a way, but still not good enough in most cases. however it can be changed. +100% clip size still not good enough? how about make it +200%, 300%? at one point there will be a weapon using it

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

this is not always true. why ammo mutation mods are good? because for those weapons using ammo mutation, they need constant supply of ammo to maintain dps, so more ammo=more damage. in a sense it is equivalent to a damage mod. same goes for reload, clip size  "weak" mods. they both improve dps in a way, but still not good enough in most cases. however it can be changed. +100% clip size still not good enough? how about make it +200%, 300%? at one point there will be a weapon using it

Think about how crazy those buffs are. If we could increase magazine sizes by 300% I'm sure it would be used, but that's only because it makes the ammo stat basically meaningless. Even then, people using it won't be able to deal as much damage, and will be forced to change it to a damage mod to be useful to teams.

[Eric1738]

Think about how crazy those buffs are. If we could increase magazine sizes by 300% I'm sure it would be used, but that's only because it makes the ammo stat basically meaningless. Even then, people using it won't be able to deal as much damage, and will be forced to change it to a damage mod to be useful to teams.

yes, currently many players favor the highest dps build, but that's because many of the utility mods are too bad to sacrifice damage. back to the original topic, removing serration wont stop players chasing for the highest dps build. removing serration for the sake of removing it feels just wrong to me. removing base damage mods are not the only option

Edited January 17, 2015 by Eric1738

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

We dont need to remove serration because everything would still be the same. Everyone would want more damage so they can survive longer in Endless Missions. Infinite level Scaling is the real issue. The mod system I one thing that actually works well in this game.