Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[Soul.Fire]

Because of Accelerant's mechanics Ember is optimized with max efficiency, Stretch, and strength mods. Narrow Minded kills range too much and adding more than one duration mod is a waste of mod space as an 8 second Accelerant lasts for a whole fire proc and a 5-8 second WoF is functional after the latest revision.  Having a 30m Accelerant for 12.5 energy allows great flexibility and puts Ember in a solid position viability-wise (some would argue she excels, but those people get pilloried on the forums.)  The main problem is that adding too much duration makes WoF less efficient instead of more efficient and that Narrow Minded kills Accelerant's efficacy anyway.  Ember should be able to open an alternate build path with more duration if the player desires but that is not possible at the moment; that is what needs to be fixed.  Accelerant's skew towards range and efficiency also limits build options somewhat but this is true for most frames.  Perhaps an augment could be implemented that somehow reduces or eliminates Accelerant's reliance on those two stats to open new build paths?

What I'd be happy with them doing is keeping the Fire Blast buff if they absolutely have to have it, and putting WoF back to the way it was before, or at least if they're going to make it a toggle ability that drains energy while in use they need to make it cost less to cast, drain less to use and remove the atrocious duration cap.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[RealPandemonium]

What I'd be happy with them doing is keeping the Fire Blast buff if they absolutely have to have it, and putting WoF back to the way it was before, or at least if they're going to make it a toggle ability that drains energy while in use they need to make it cost less to cast, drain less to use and remove the atrocious duration cap.

IMO they should remove the duration cap and make added duration reduce the energy cost per second, effectively lengthening the amount of time you can maintain it.  Cut the activation cost in half (Peacemaker is already like this, costing only 25 energy before efficiency to activate) and you have yourself a solid ability at both short and long durations.  

Edited January 27, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[CHAIT0]

Besides the world on fire problem that everyone seems to have.

 

Another one of the big problems i have with ember at the moment is that Accelerant and fire blast feel like they overlap. one of them is CC and a Sweet &#! damage amp. the other is CC and a S#&$ty damage circle that does nothing. As you can probably tell i dont like fire blast much as it is now.

 

Id rather they combine both fire blast and accelerant and make it so it behaves the same way fire blast does now, without the spawning fire circle. so you got a propagating damage amp that knocks down enemies, very similar to molecular prime. the new ability thats gonna replace the combined powers? i dont know, I was thinking something that stops all the flames on enemies at the time and turns it into energy for ember. Or maybe a buff that gets stronger the more targets are on fire. or just bring overheat back :/

[LisRestall]

This post is sensational.  Heat proc immobilizes enemies for 6 seconds, doing 50% bonus damage immediately and 300% more bonus damage over those 6 seconds.  My Accelerant-boosted WoF does over 5000 damage per tick, which is hardly "S#&$," and over 850 without Accelerant (this is with max efficiency and a 5.5 second WoF.)  Ember's optimal build was buffed overall by the changes.  The problem lies with deviant builds, which include long duration WoF, less than 45% range mods, and less than max efficiency.  There's a fine line between "you're building wrong" and "there's only one build," but Ember is definitely more on the side of the latter at the moment, even more so than before the changes.  

Oh please tell me how to do 5000 damage per tick w/o having too much downside.

[RealPandemonium]

Oh please tell me how to do 5000 damage per tick w/o having too much downside.

Unless you consider a 6 second WoF a downside, just do this: http://goo.gl/gXQJ2p

[LisRestall]

Unless you consider a 6 second WoF a downside, just do this: http://goo.gl/gXQJ2p

Too low duration, you could've killed alot more using guns after using Accelerant esp on an Amprex built with Hellfire + Wildfire. WoF still not worth the very long cast. Also, still low range. In conclusion, you still mentioned 6s as a downside but you also have to mention it has crappy range because it can only use Stretch, in-comparison to other ults out there, you don't even need Accelerant to replicate the same damage WoF does with Accelerant. Ember still doesn't have a place for end-game until she becomes on par with the most staple frames.

[RealPandemonium]

Too low duration, you could've killed alot more using guns after using Accelerant esp on an Amprex built with Hellfire + Wildfire. WoF still not worth the very long cast. Also, still low range. In conclusion, you still mentioned 6s as a downside but you also have to mention it has crappy range because it can only use Stretch, in-comparison to other ults out there, you don't even need Accelerant to replicate the same damage WoF does with Accelerant. Ember still doesn't have a place for end-game until she becomes on par with the most staple frames.

20m isn't enough range for you? What's a "staple frame" in your opinion?

[LisRestall]

20m isn't enough range for you? What's a "staple frame" in your opinion?

20m is still small, the problem is you want that looong casting time to be "worth it" meaning you want to hit as much enemies with it as well as it should stay long since you don't want to keep repeating that painfully long cast. A staple frame is literally what it means, a frame which is staple for long endless mission void runs.

[Ryjeon]

I think given its target cap it's not unreasonable to give WoF a significantly longer base duration to warrant the change to a toggle. I don't have a problem with the ranges of Ember's abilities because being continually mobile seems to be encouraged by her abilities. But having to stop and recast her ult is one of things working against this mobility trend.

[RealPandemonium]

20m is still small, the problem is you want that looong casting time to be "worth it" meaning you want to hit as much enemies with it as well as it should stay long since you don't want to keep repeating that painfully long cast. A staple frame is literally what it means, a frame which is staple for long endless mission void runs.

Ah, so "staple" means "exploitable."  I see.

 

Equip NT if the cast animation is still too long for your taste.  Accelerant and Fire Blast both allow a safe cast animation and using cover is also a thing.  Also, casting while airborne. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[geninrising]

Ah, so "staple" means "exploitable."  I see.

 

Equip NT if the cast animation is still too long for your taste.  Accelerant and Fire Blast both allow a safe cast animation and using cover is also a thing.  Also, casting while airborne. 

or sliding ^^

[geninrising]

20m is still small, the problem is you want that looong casting time to be "worth it" meaning you want to hit as much enemies with it as well as it should stay long since you don't want to keep repeating that painfully long cast. A staple frame is literally what it means, a frame which is staple for long endless mission void runs.

Nothing should be a staple frame. If DE truly desires that we have a choice when running various different mission types then they need to ensure all frames are equal in power and desirability.

[geninrising]

Too low duration, you could've killed alot more using guns after using Accelerant esp on an Amprex built with Hellfire + Wildfire. WoF still not worth the very long cast. Also, still low range. In conclusion, you still mentioned 6s as a downside but you also have to mention it has crappy range because it can only use Stretch, in-comparison to other ults out there, you don't even need Accelerant to replicate the same damage WoF does with Accelerant. Ember still doesn't have a place for end-game until she becomes on par with the most staple frames.

Also lets clarify here. In true end game NO DPS FRAME IS A "STAPLE" in fact most are a liability, because they do not provide necessary cc components or damage boosts that can help everyone exceed 40 minutes viably. The most common compositions of frames that exceed 40m include the following frames Vauban, Frost, Nova, Nyx, Banshee, Loki. Now thanks to recent changes we can include Limbo as a worthwhile defender as long as you strategize properly for his use.

 

I have a 75 minute run utilizing Vauban, Banshee, Limbo and Loki Prime. The only reason it was not longer was due to time constraints on two members.

 

Power damage will never scale infinitely the way CC does so an Ember in Infinite is always going to be classified as a less desirable frame. Don't get me wrong she CAN work IF the team is strategized around her use to ensure she is capable of performing as well as she possibly can, however on her own people will always be averse to her inclusion.

[geninrising]

Besides the world on fire problem that everyone seems to have.

 

Another one of the big problems i have with ember at the moment is that Accelerant and fire blast feel like they overlap. one of them is CC and a Sweet ! damage amp. the other is CC and a S#&$ty damage circle that does nothing. As you can probably tell i dont like fire blast much as it is now.

 

Id rather they combine both fire blast and accelerant and make it so it behaves the same way fire blast does now, without the spawning fire circle. so you got a propagating damage amp that knocks down enemies, very similar to molecular prime. the new ability thats gonna replace the combined powers? i dont know, I was thinking something that stops all the flames on enemies at the time and turns it into energy for ember. Or maybe a buff that gets stronger the more targets are on fire. or just bring overheat back :/

Actually I figured out a hilariously effective way to use FB to completely protect the pod through a vast majority of every t4 defense run ^^

[Hybridon]

Actually I figured out a hilariously effective way to use FB to completely protect the pod through a vast majority of every t4 defense run ^^

 

Mate, use the multiquote so I dont keep getting multiple replies on the thread made by the same person in a row :P

[geninrising]

20m isn't enough range for you? What's a "staple frame" in your opinion?

20m isn't enough to REP FARM with is what I think he is intimating there.

 

20 m is in fact fine along with it's new target prioritization effect. The only thing that kills WOF atm is the inability to build for duration without destroying the rest of your build due to energy costs being prohibitive in a non efficiency build.

 

And the things some call a downside for FB are actually very useful if you have a given comp. I will leave it to you guys to work that one out as some will call it an exploit and others will simply say SYNERGY ^^

[geninrising]

Pardon I see new things I want to reply to after having commented on posts, it does not allow me to add quotes in after I post a response only prior to and most of the time thoughts pop in afterwards not while scanning things.

Edited January 28, 2015 by geninrising

[xyLoneZ]

Unless you consider a 6 second WoF a downside, just do this: http://goo.gl/gXQJ2p

Trash build. There's so many things wrong with this build.

I'll tell you one thing though.

You realize by going with negative duration, you actually spend more energy due to the activation cost?

 

Yes, tell us more about your bs about long duration being "deviant" build.

[LisRestall]

I didn't bother replying  because I just literally facepalmed at the quotes.

[Ryjeon]

Trash build. There's so many things wrong with this build.

I'll tell you one thing though.

You realize by going with negative duration, you actually spend more energy due to the activation cost?

 

Yes, tell us more about your bs about long duration being "deviant" build.

 

That looks pretty good to me. I just ran a T4S to an hour with less duration and power strength than his build and managed to stay relevant the entire time. Ended with nearly 1200 kills and 44% damage done, with two Lokis and a Nekros, and two Corrosive Projections. I noticed the Heat procs from World on Fire were decimating even heavy enemies late into the match. And with high power efficiency I was able to safely control the large two tier circular room with frequent stretch Accelerant stuns.

 

While I don't think duration builds are deviant, I do think they're less self sufficient than a high-energy efficiency build. But I can see where you're coming from that long duration WoFs have the potential to be more efficient per second than frequently recast short duration ones. I did however encounter a bug where I was consuming energy orbs without gaining energy during the World on Fire. So I ended up frequently ending it early so I can pick up some orbs. This bug seems to only happen if you're the client though.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ryjeon

[LisRestall]

Ended with nearly 1200 kills and 44% damage done, with two Lokis and a Nekros, and two Corrosive Projections.

Were you actually expecting the Lokis and Nekros be able to get near the damage output of Ember? Tell you what. Give me that lineup, I'll use a Mesa. We camp in 1 place, watch me do 70% damage dealt. It's very easy to outdamage Loki and Nekros because they are NOT meant to be nukers, they are utility/cc frames.

[RealPandemonium]

Trash build. There's so many things wrong with this build.

I'll tell you one thing though.

You realize by going with negative duration, you actually spend more energy due to the activation cost?

 

Yes, tell us more about your bs about long duration being "deviant" build.

Long duration builds on Ember since Accelerant's implementation had been deviant because they focused on WoF when focusing on Fireball and especially Accelerant made much more sense as they are far more essential to Ember's success.  Now WoF was buffed for short duration builds but is still bad with long duration builds.   It needs to be good with long duration builds as well.  

 

Also why is that mod setup bad?

[xyLoneZ]

Long duration builds on Ember since Accelerant's implementation had been deviant because they focused on WoF when focusing on Fireball and especially Accelerant made much more sense as they are far more essential to Ember's success.  Now WoF was buffed for short duration builds but is still bad with long duration builds.   It needs to be good with long duration builds as well.  

 

Also why is that mod setup bad?

Simple math here.

 

With your setup, but replacing BR with R6 NM (and R4 FE). - 14.1s duration

1 WoF cast -> 12.5 + 14.1 * 1.25 = 27.85 energy for 14.1s

 

With your original setup -> 6.8s

2 WoF cast -> 25 + 6.8 * 1.25 * 2 = 42 energy for 13.6s

 

Not to mention the animation cast which is still freaking long even post-buff and NT.

 

On long void runs, WoF become useless, true. So does other non-scaling damage ability. Even then, accelerant is still outshadowed by other damage boosting skill, such as Sonar or M.prime. They have much bigger range, with more utility beside accelerant's 1 second stagger. Plus, Accelerant only boosts HEAT damage, which isn't exactly the best type of damage in void. Making the entire discussion of "accelerant is better than WoF on long void runs" a moot point.

[Ryjeon]

Were you actually expecting the Lokis and Nekros be able to get near the damage output of Ember? Tell you what. Give me that lineup, I'll use a Mesa. We camp in 1 place, watch me do 70% damage dealt. It's very easy to outdamage Loki and Nekros because they are NOT meant to be nukers, they are utility/cc frames.

 

The point I am illustrating is that Ember is able to handle the content just fine with her own damage and crowd control. My team was confident going to an hour in large part because of my ability to both keep the enemies locked down and kill them in a timely manner so they don't stack up. There were several times when we were able to clear the room even after 50 minutes. And the other point was that my damage wasn't being boosted by a Nova or Rhino. So my damage is reflective of Ember's own ability to complete an hour of T4S based on her own resources.

 

 

Simple math here.

 

With your setup, but replacing BR with R6 NM (and R4 FE). - 14.1s duration

1 WoF cast -> 12.5 + 14.1 * 1.25 = 27.85 energy for 14.1s

 

With your original setup -> 6.8s

2 WoF cast -> 25 + 6.8 * 1.25 * 2 = 42 energy for 13.6s

 

Not to mention the animation cast which is still freaking long even post-buff and NT.

 

On long void runs, WoF become useless, true. So does other non-scaling damage ability. Even then, accelerant is still outshadowed by other damage boosting skill, such as Sonar or M.prime. They have much bigger range, with more utility beside accelerant's 1 second stagger. Plus, Accelerant only boosts HEAT damage, which isn't exactly the best type of damage in void. Making the entire discussion of "accelerant is better than WoF on long void runs" a moot point.

 

Accelerant is a stun not a stagger. It lasts around 4 seconds which is just short of the time it takes to fully revive a downed teammate.  It has a similar duration to the stun of Radial Blind and is in some ways a superior stun to Rhino Stomp because you can continuously chain it to keep enemies locked down while stunning new enemies that come into range. At max efficiency that's ~3-4 energy per 1 second of uninterrupted disabling in a wide area. Because of this strength anything that lowers its effective range beyond what you get from adding stretch is very risky. You're giving up a lot of power by not keeping it long-range.

 

After you deal with armor via Corrosive Projections Heat is arguably the second most effective damage type in the void after Viral. It also happens to stack nicely with viral. Added to an entire team's weapons Heat is a significant source of additional damage and control from the status procs. Accelerant makes it even more so. Building around Banshee and Nova will always be the easy answer and if that's all that satisfies you then nothing has to change that. But building for Accelerant is still effective even if it takes more planning and might be more challenging on the part of the team. And if you want to see absolutely maxed damage you should bring all of them.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Aimop95]

screaming about toggling aside. What should I build for in Ember then? Short duration or long one?