Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[Xtenz]

Yeah, I know accelerant stuns, I just don't understand why he made the point. Fire blast stuns too, she's no vauban, we don't need a fire frame to spec into CC. When we think of fire, we think pain and damage, not CC.

 

God damn it  , i made the point because accelerant DOESNT ONLY BUFF DAMAGE 

 

Your point is bad, nobody is being straightforward. Several others and myself have pointed out how dependant she is on all power mod stats and accelerant/fire damage. Your post was just saying you can get a lot of damage, but all of us already know this, it's an irrelevant thing to bring up because it would be a horrible build to actually run.

So yeah what you posted was in fact a bad thing, not a good thing.

 

I made this point to say that her scaling damage wise isnt bad and many people say it is    , if you can't understand this well i'm sorry for you . 

I said this because she lacks everything except damage :

her  duration is low ,

 

her  range  is low/medium ,

 

her mana costs are high

 

 but her damage is good.

 

 

And as you said she relies too much on those stats , and that is what is giving her so much trouble , so if you wanna fix her give her some of these stats , simple as that .

 

Her kit would work just fine if you gave her some of theses stats  and we would have more flexibility in her building 

 

 

Oh and #324 you are trying to compare a heavy CC/utility caster frame with a damage one ,  good job mate :3  

 

And yeah , volt has more utility than ember , but ember does more damage :3

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[MrNonApplicable]

God damn it  , i made the point because accelerant DOESNT ONLY BUFF DAMAGE 

 

 

I made this point to say that her scaling damage wise isnt bad and many people say it is    , if you can't understand this well i'm sorry for you . 

I said this because i said she lacks everything except damage :

her  duration is low ,

 

her  range isnt is low/medium ,

 

her mana costs are high

 

 but her damage is good.

 

 

And as you said she relies too much on those stats , and that is what is giving her so much trouble , so if you wanna fix her give her some of these stats , simple as that .

 

Her kit would work just fine if you gave her some of theses stats  and we would have more flexibility in her building

Like I said, she doesn't need too much CC, she's meant to be a damage frame. So basically, so what if a cop-out ability has stun? She shouldn't need the extra stun.

Having all abilities require another detriments her build flexibility, not just too many modifiers on her powers.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

I'm a ps4 tenno, so I haven't had a chance to test the changes myself. However after seeing everyone's reactions to WoF, I believe this is an example of why modding each power individually should be looked into. Players could mod their first 3 abilities as they pleas without affecting the duration of WoF

[AlexanderDarko]

 

I said this because i said she lacks everything except damage :

her  duration is low ,

 

her  range isnt is low/medium ,

 

her mana costs are high

 

 but her damage is good.

 

 

Nope :D

Range-> LOW maybe if you sacrafice damage then is it medium (Overextended)

And other wrong thing -> Good damage? YES on LOW levels / maps... Try it on T4 late game..umm sorry.. mid game.. even MIRRAGE /Saryn / and nearly all other damage dealer frame deals more with totally same modding.

Just try it

1 more thing->     Fire -> PAINFUL DEATH

AlexanderDarko (MR18) out

Edited January 22, 2015 by AlexanderDarko

[ReizoRyuu]

I made this point to say that her scaling damage wise isnt bad and many people say it is    , if you can't understand this well i'm sorry for you . 

 

You are sorry for me? Hahaha, tell more jokes why don't you.

Her damage scaling is bad, simply because it scales directly off every single one of her other stats and thus becomes untenable as a build one would actually run.

Or let me put it simpler for you: every other frame with damage dealing abilites can scale that damage without completely wrecking the complete kit like ember does.

This is why people say she's bad damage wise, because scaling that damage is completely unsustainable, unlike with every single other frame.

Your point and post were bad, feel sorry for yourself instead of me.

[MotherofHermes]

I am actually leveling up Ember again. So far the changes are nice, but IMO it's not enough. Ember is still extremely oriented towards fire damage, and a lot of Warframes are much more attractive when it's about wreacking the crap out of things (Volt and the insane bonuses given by Electric Shield, Nova and Mprime...). I mainly see Ember as a damage/CC oriented warframe, and as almost the only frame with a good enough firepower on her abilities. I think the best thing to do is give the possibility to make Ember's powers matching the guns killing potential with the right build.

 

Ember has more or less the same problem than Volt : she needs a specific kind of weapon to be truely efficient. While Volt needs critical focused weapons to extract the more punch possible from his weaponry, Ember needs fire damage focused weapons. The probem is, Volt has already a good amount of critical focused weaponry, and they're already extremely good weapons for most of them : Amprex, Dread, Soma (Prime)... While Ember needs fire damage focused weaponry, and so far we have only two weapons that are only focused on fire damage (and they're not very good). An indirect buff to Ember would be to buff Ignis, and also creating more weapons focused on fire damage. So far, Ember's effective choice of weapon is extremely limited, and IMO this need to change ASAP.

 

Another interesting thing to add : all players inside the fireblast area gets a damage bonus considered as fire damage. If you're inside the burning circle left by fire blast, you get +X% fire damage to everything (including abilities) as long as you stay on that area. This would make Accelerant more interesting when your allies did not packed any weapon with fire damage on it, as well as not making Accelerant totally useless if you forgot your Ignis and your fire damage mods.

 

I'd suggest to get rid of the timer on World on Fire. I really don't think that this is needed.

So like. wof or fireblast = all gun/melee damage is converted to fire? accellerant plus boltor prime anyone?

[Xtenz]

Her damage scaling is bad, simply because it scales directly off every single one of her other stats and thus becomes untenable as a build one would actually run.

Or let me put it simpler for you: every other frame with damage dealing abilites can scale that damage without completely wrecking the complete kit like ember does.

This is why people say she's bad damage wise, because scaling that damage is completely unsustainable, unlike with every single other frame.

 

You're trolling right ? we are saying the same thing , except I AM giving a direct solution to the problem .

 

Since she does depend so much on those stats if you give some of those (with balancing patch changes) she will depend less on those  , so it would give more flexibility in her building.

 

More flexibility in her building MEANS you can scale better . get it ?

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[EmptyDevil]

Okay guys OP here.

Me and DeRebecca did a few hours testing embers viability and scaling in mars, T4surv and Ceres Draco last night.

 

Here's my conclusion:

 

Ember in her current state is a 100% viable frame, she can deal large damage, and with enough team member to keep you alive and res you when you end up downed, you can still crush and push back most enemies that you take on. However, you will need to chew through health restores.

 

Okay, that said the way this worked was basically by spamming her 2nd and 3rd, ..a stun and and damage buff, followed by stun, cc and damage (buffed).

 

I did some testing with and without accelerant and found the damage dealing abilities of ember to deal trivial damage without accelerant. This basically made accelerant necesary for any damage casting.

While this meant it worked, this makes accelerant seem like a bandaid ability really, a ability to buff embers damage to viable levels, rather than just buffing embers damage to viable levels in the first place.

 

I did notice that basically any time you stopped running around, you were almost immediately pummeled and that trying to revive a team mate usually led to a domino effect of deaths. Once again, too much glass, not enough cannon, because there was nothing in embers kit strong enough to keep enemies at bay while I put my fragile self in harms way.

 

Everyone's said enough on WoF now, I don't need to cover that much. It was okay for short charges (as long as you applied your damage buff first). but it didn't feel like an ulti.

 

 

Okay, here's my idea to remedy ember's problems;

 

Scrap accelerant and just buff embers damage capabilities, ..don't make us use an ability just to facilitate them being useful.

Give her damage the ash treatment, mix in some finisher damage to ignore armor and shields. Then you won't have to worry about her being too OP at lower levels and useless at higher, because a fair splash of normal and ignoring damage makes for no need of crazy damage at low levels just to keep up later on.

 

Replace accelerant with an ability similar to old overheat, that reduces incoming damage from projectiles at a hard cap of 30% maybe, increases outgoing damage (of ability and wep damage not excessively) and increases chance of knockdown resist (to keep you running) With the latter two improved by power strength.

 

Remove the duration timer on WoF and the target cap. Honestly, this is just so bad, I spent nearly all of my duration running around a guy not targeted by my WoF on Ceres Draco as it's 3 target limit was being used up by other enemies, while this one guy was trying to kill me.

Ember is not strong, and she has to get close to enemies to deal damage, but the risk, vs reward is way off, I could have been killed, never having hit that one enemy feet away from me taking pot shots before the duration ended, if I hadn't just shot him.

If ember needs to get so close, and put herself at such risk, the reward must be worth it.

I like all of these but i'm unsure about removing accelerant for an altered overheat though. The 30% damage reduction doesn't seem too noteworthy, so maybe make it 50% damage reduction with a 100% chance to proc heat DoT on enemies within 8m of Ember. I think that would be a pretty good overheat. Other than that i definitely agreed with WoF having it's duration limit removed, enemy limit removed, and making it do finisher damage.

Edited January 22, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[MrNonApplicable]

I like all of these but i'm unsure about removing accelerant for an altered overheat though. The 30% damage reduction doesn't seem too noteworthy, so maybe make it 50% damage reduction with a 100% chance to proc heat DoT on enemies within 8m of Ember. I think that would be a pretty good overheat. Other than that i definitely agreed with WoF having it's duration limit removed, enemy limit removed, and making it do finisher damage.

I just wanted it low enough, to mix well with anti knockdown to make ember good at running around in close quarters. With an outgoing damage boost for weps and abilities that wasn't too big so the ability had some diversity rather and synergy.

[geninrising]

What i personally think is wrong is putting out values with Max Power Strenght. Only being able to have damage just through a completely focused build is wrong. I say this now about Ember and i'll say it again  if they don't change the way Saryn ult works. (which i still think is a bug they didn't bother to fix).

 

Also, where do you get these values? do you have a screenshot? I'm asking because according to WF Builder with all three power strenght mods each tick only does 1136 damage without accelerant. With the accelerant debuff at 710% it does 8065.60 damage. we're not counting even damage reduction from armor and such.

don't bother asking him to prove said statistics because he can't. Not even against the lowest level infested that have bonus damage from fire.

[ZechsX18999]

Ember's WOF is what made me like her. An AOE damaging ability that moves with you is unique only to Ember.

 

Now after the WOF nerf, I just can't justify using an already underwelming 4th ability.

 

Now to make Ember viable, I need to run an Accelerant/Fireball build, which is pretty much the same as using guns. Why use Ember when I can...use any other frame and a gun?

[ReizoRyuu]

You're trolling right ? we are saying the same thing , except I AM giving a direct solution to the problem .

 

Since she does depend so much on those stats if you give some of those (with balancing patch changes) she will depend less on those  , so it would give more flexibility in her building.

 

More flexibility in her building MEANS you can scale better . get it ?

 

Wow how can you be so dense, I was never contesting reworking her kit to be less dependant on so many factors, and neither have the majority of posts in this thread, heck I made a post about it on page 10 (which I suggest you go and read).

So why do you keep bringing up this? Your post said the damage she gets from max power is a good thing: "If you feel it is , you might be doing something wrong.".

The thing that's wrong here is you suggesting max power as if it's something viable, while in fact that build is completely ridiculous and unsustainable. THIS is the point everyone is replying to you about, not whether or not we should make her less dependant on multiple stats, so stop trying to make it sound every single person in this thread doesn't think so already.

[Elannor]

Ok. I was really hyped about this since Ember is my all time favorite but I really wasn't expecting this update so soon so I first had to max her out from the Forma she suffered yesterday (which made me glad since the new build requires it.)

 

LVLing her up was purely amazing. Of course, low lvl maps I felt awesome playing with her again but once I hit max and tried my old build, Full DURATION + POWER I was disappointing. 

 

Running the same build gives me less Duration and More energy cost. I lost around 10 seconds and 100 energy on World on Fire. So I had to rebuild. Make her energy efficient thus reducing duration thus reducing her overall output damage. In conclusion, although I could take more hits, I could not compensate with the damage.

 

The CC is great from the new Fireblast is awesome. I love it. But I see range nor duration affect the wall of fire that is spreading. 

 

Another thing I observed: Energy is being drain starting the skill initiation, right when the animation starts, not when the damage begins. That makes around 15 energy lost (no streamline/fleeting + blind rage) until the casting animation is done. Is this something that we`ll have to deal with?

 

I agree with most players on this thread, with this update, although the CC of Fireblast is wonderful and welcomed, the changes on WoF make it worse (with duration build, power build or range build) even though the Toggle option is really really great and I`m on board with either Reverting the changes to the old WoF or removing the Duration on it, thus giving ember enough damage to make a difference.

[AlexanderDarko]

Ok. I was really hyped about this since Ember is my all time favorite but I really wasn't expecting this update so soon so I first had to max her out from the Forma she suffered yesterday (which made me glad since the new build requires it.)

 

LVLing her up was purely amazing. Of course, low lvl maps I felt awesome playing with her again but once I hit max and tried my old build, Full DURATION + POWER I was disappointing. 

 

Running the same build gives me less Duration and More energy cost. I lost around 10 seconds and 100 energy on World on Fire. So I had to rebuild. Make her energy efficient thus reducing duration thus reducing her overall output damage. In conclusion, although I could take more hits, I could not compensate with the damage.

 

The CC is great from the new Fireblast is awesome. I love it. But I see range nor duration affect the wall of fire that is spreading. 

 

Another thing I observed: Energy is being drain starting the skill initiation, right when the animation starts, not when the damage begins. That makes around 15 energy lost (no streamline/fleeting + blind rage) until the casting animation is done. Is this something that we`ll have to deal with?

 

I agree with most players on this thread, with this update, although the CC of Fireblast is wonderful and welcomed, the changes on WoF make it worse (with duration build, power build or range build) even though the Toggle option is really really great and I`m on board with either Reverting the changes to the old WoF or removing the Duration on it, thus giving ember enough damage to make a difference.

YOU are TOTALLY right! My First crafted frame was Ember.. i remember her parts dropped by a bigger red butcher (Old cpt Vor).. She is my favorite at all.. and i learned how to play with 15 ultra op armor on ceres survivals for an example.. but now 1 skill is not useless but enough useless to play with another frame ..

[ensignvidiot]

Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Note 3: Fire Fright and it's efficacy on the Wall that Fire-Blast now generates has been noted - will be a design call but the concern has been forwarded.

Will play around myself some more this evening as we continue discussing - please remain civil and respectful. 

 

On Note 1, I am guilty as charged.

But i just finished a Run on Stephano (figured the multidude of enemies would be good to test with) with the following Warframe build:

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ember_prime/t_30_020004002_1-5-10-2-4-10-3-8-5-4-7-5-5-6-5-6-0-5-13-3-3-479-1-7-481-2-7_6-11-479-6-481-11-13-13-2-12-1-7-5-9-4-9-3-18_0/en/1-0-4

 

And here is my Gripe-sheet:

 

The Armor increase is nice, my sheilds can drop and I wont immediately follow suit.

 

Having more Sprint-speed and stamina is a plus too, I find that a non-moving ember is a dead one.

 

The New Fireblast mechanic I both love and hate:

On one hand, I get an AoE Knockdown... that doesnt have a whole lot of damnage.

On the Other, the AoE Knockdown also knocks back... the enemies... that would have taken damage from Fireblast itself.

Since the ability now shoves enemies outside its effect, it does little to no damage now.

 

...but its spammable, so now I can chain-stun with Ember

 

World on Fire

 

WIth Primed Continuity, Constitution, and Streamline... I felt like i was playing a Blind-Rage energy Cost... for no additional damage or utility.

It still functions the same, I cast, run around, and things die.

If I spam Accellerant during its effect and run out of energy it now ends immediately.

I can now toggle it, but its not cost efficient to... as recasting will cost me another chunk of energy up front.

Thankfully Carrier can refil my energy with orbs while its still up, but Energy Drops are a no-go (I have not yet tested energy vampire).

 

This needs more damage if you want to keep both the timer and the energy drain.  Or to go with One or the Other.

Preferably, i would like World on Fire to be Channeled Only, take duration out of the equation for the warframe (aside for fireblast) and give Fleeting Expertise builds a chance to shine on ember.

 

TL:DR New Fireblast needs more tweaks to be useful. New World on Fire needs to die in a Fire.

[Phoenix86]

DE needs to either get rid of Range or Duration on her whole skillset to start, so she wont suffer MAD!

 

IE: Since Fireball has infinite range and fireblast is not influenced by range, they could simply put a fixed range also to Accelerant and WoF (25m for example like base Radial Javelin) and we could focus on Duration, Efficiency and Power only

 

Or they could get rid of Duration since Fireball doesnt have it, and the other 3 skills could have fixed durations like 20 sec Accelerant, 15 sec FireBlast, 10 sec WoF. And we could focus only on Range Efficiency and Power

 

One way or another we have to get rid of 1 attribute.

 

Beside that, WoF needs his crappy max 3 target hard cap be removed or be influenced by Strenght

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Joshyk810]

I thought her fireblast ability would cause knockbacks like the eximus does, seems only cause fire procs here and there.

[Aimop95]

So all I've gotten from this thread is that:

 

WoF needs to have either duration or toggle.

Fireblast needs to proc fire with it's push away to make it beautiful.

 

Frankly, every ability of Ember's should have a 75% to 100% fire proc except for accelerant, for obvious reasons. I personally would love to also see Ember having a blast proc with her ult, but if she's a damage frame, she needs to do damage constantly, and a fire proc for surviving enemies ensures that she is always burning mobs.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Aimop95

[RealPandemonium]

Just make WoF a true toggle.  Make the toggle gain efficiency from duration mods, and she'll be fine.  This is an easy fix, cmon DE.  (Also fix the flame wave knocking enemies out of the ring.)

Edited January 22, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Aimop95]

Just make WoF a true toggle.  Make the toggle gain efficiency from duration mods, and she'll be fine.  This is an easy fix, cmon DE.  (Also fix the flame wave knocking enemies out of the ring.)

flame wave has a chance to proc, it's just not 100% proc.

[EmptyDevil]

Just make WoF a true toggle.  Make the toggle gain efficiency from duration mods, and she'll be fine.  This is an easy fix, cmon DE.  (Also fix the flame wave knocking enemies out of the ring.)

 

I think it would be better to have WoF completely unaffected by duration. 

[88th_Phantom]

Back again to post here and I find i'm only more confused than when I last posted.

 

Between then and now, the thread name changes and official responses seem to ignore the elephant in the room that is WoF Dur-Toggle. I legitimately believed that this was an oversight of the ability to have both the features present.

I last mentioned that it seemed self-defeating and detrimental to the buffs changes to her ability - it makes much more sense to have a sole toggle instead of now having to toggle between the need for efficiency and duration mods on top of trying to make sure she still does damage, whilst not running out of energy, whilst not taking more damage than you can afford to dish out. all this change has done to her is let her turn off the ability (which people only ever use to destroy as many enemies as possible for as long as possible) prematurely.

 

We were excited for Ember's warframe buffs because it was going to make her more viable for endgame play (A Prospect That No Warframe Should Be Exempt From) and we were excited for the changes to abilities like fire blast and WoF because we thought it would allow us to refocus Ember's mods to best utilize these new stat changes - a more perfect refresh could not have been done.

 

And now the entirety of this issue could be resolved by removing the duration hard lock from handicapping her new Ult and furthering the dependency on mods to fix her abilities. Fix definitely seems like the most apt word to describe something first thought to be an oversight by an overwhelming portion of the community.

 

There really isn't much debate to whether or not people want this handicap that actually inhibits Ember more than before she was changed and the most frustrating part of this is that the fix is staring us in the face on a 10 second countdown at the bottom corner of the screen.

[geninrising]

Back again to post here and I find i'm only more confused than when I last posted.

 

Between then and now, the thread name changes and official responses seem to ignore the elephant in the room that is WoF Dur-Toggle. I legitimately believed that this was an oversight of the ability to have both the features present.

I last mentioned that it seemed self-defeating and detrimental to the buffs changes to her ability - it makes much more sense to have a sole toggle instead of now having to toggle between the need for efficiency and duration mods on top of trying to make sure she still does damage, whilst not running out of energy, whilst not taking more damage than you can afford to dish out. all this change has done to her is let her turn off the ability (which people only ever use to destroy as many enemies as possible for as long as possible) prematurely.

 

We were excited for Ember's warframe buffs because it was going to make her more viable for endgame play (A Prospect That No Warframe Should Be Exempt From) and we were excited for the changes to abilities like fire blast and WoF because we thought it would allow us to refocus Ember's mods to best utilize these new stat changes - a more perfect refresh could not have been done.

 

And now the entirety of this issue could be resolved by removing the duration hard lock from handicapping her new Ult and furthering the dependency on mods to fix her abilities. Fix definitely seems like the most apt word to describe something first thought to be an oversight by an overwhelming portion of the community.

 

There really isn't much debate to whether or not people want this handicap that actually inhibits Ember more than before she was changed and the most frustrating part of this is that the fix is staring us in the face on a 10 second countdown at the bottom corner of the screen.

all of this!

[Nakimato]

My suggestions how to make Ember worth to play among other Warframes and not just let her collect dust again:

 

1. Fireball: Is at the moment good but it would really be nice if he sets a the explosion point a "flame ball" like the Napalm Grineer

Max rank Stats

Initial damage 400

Blast damage 150

Cast range unlimited

Blast radius ?

 

2. Accelerant: Ember heats herself up and produces a large amount hot air that is flowing away from her slowing the enemys and heat them up for higher Fire Dmg and protect her a bit from incoming dmg because the hot air change the flight path of the bullets.

Darmage Multiplier, Range and Duration stay the same like now slow the enemy 10% incoming DMG reduced by 30%

Max rank Stats

Range 20m

Duration 15s

Strength 2.5x

Slow 10%

DMG Reduction 30%

 

3. Fire Blast should be based on Duration like Novas Molecular Prime or scaling with Range

Max rank Stats

Duration 20s

Damage 150

 

Range explosion 15m / Scaling the Explosion on Duration would mean the Ring expand 0.75m/s. If you add as example 100% duration the ring would expand 40s which would make 30m/ if based on range if you add 100% range the explosion would also be 30m

 

Range ring 4m

 

4. Wold of Fire (sorry but as it is now i personally find it totally useless)

Change it back to the way it was 100 Energy over a set duration, or remove the duration and make it toggle.

Toggle with a fixed duration is not really a benefit for Ember it is simply a nerf who erase her already limited power.

And for the only 3 enemys a the time thing why has Mirage 20 targets at the time and Ember only 3....

 

Max rank Stats

Damage 400 Heat per explosion

Duration 10s

Energy 100 (no Drain)

Radius 20m

Enemys who can be hit simultanius 10

 

Or

 

Max rank Stats

Damage 400 Heat per explosion

Energy 50 + 5 drain every second

Radius 20m

Enemys who can be hit simultanius 10

 

 

That are my suggestions to make Ember worth play because atm it is just a frame that collects dust or is being thrown away because it is useless.

 

Edit: I would like to play Ember more than i do because i love fire and the fire animations but there is simply no space in any mission for an Ember. I mean playing with an Ember is like play with someone who is MR18 and has an R0 Excal with R0 MK1-Braton, R0 Lato and a R0 Skana with him.

No Power behind a shiny hull

Edited January 22, 2015 by Nakimato

[geninrising]

So for simplicity's sake I am going to begin placing a summary of all feedback on a per page basis.

 

Consensus is that DE should remove duration from WOF. Additionally increase target cap or remove said cap.

 

Additional thoughts are that Fireblast negates it's own effectiveness due to blowing enemy AI away from the circle and then enemy AI purposefully stays out of it thereby negating any of the remaining damage for it's duration.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising