Fireblast Is So Broken... In A Bad Way.

[Racercowboy]

Fireblast

 

What's wrong with this skill, you ask? The mechanics do not work in harmony, it has restrictions that do no exist within the natural rules of the game, and it tried to fulfill a role that accelerant already fills.

 

First, the mechanics. As if it weren't bad enough before trying to score some damage with it, it's even harder now thanks to it's knockback mechanics. Enemies get hit away from the ring which negates a large portion of the already largely butchered damage. It's like "oh hey, let me hit this guy away from my hellfire, he'll be safer that way". I honestly think the knockback effect should be reverted, but I'll get into more of that later.

 

Second, It has a restriction that no other ability in the game of it's type has. Generally, with an AoE ability, if something is in the area they are affected by the effect of the AoE, whether it be damage, cc, healing, or whatever. All AoE skills in warframe abide by this rule...... except Fireblast. Enemies inside the ring of fire are 100% safe and free to do whatever. There is no logical, realistically or game mechanics wise, as to why this should be. For goodness sake's, make the DoT hit inside the ring too. There is no excuse as to why it shouldn't.

 

Third, the change to Fireblast tries to fulfill an AoE CC role.... something Accelerant already does at a lower energy cost and applying an insane damage buff at the same time over a potentially larger area. Why, I ask, would you ever use Fireblast over Accelerant if CC is needed. “But they get knocked over if you use Fireblast!” Well, if I use Accelerant and fire ball them they'll fall over.... for eternity.

 

With all these complaints on World on Fire, I sometimes have to wonder why Fireblast's glaring issues are seemingly ignored. I mean, at least World on fire WORKS.

 

Also, here's a comparison of Fireblast and it's so called brother skill, Hallowed Ground:

 

Fireblast (skill on a PURE DAMAGE frame):

- 3000 fire damage over 20 seconds

- knocks enemies over

- Might set people on fire

- Does not hit in the entire range

- Is not affected by range mods

- 75 energy cost

 

Hallowed Ground (skill on a HYBRID DAMAGE/SUPPORT frame)

- 4000 radiation damage over 20 seconds

- +20% armor to anyone standing in it. Is affected by power strength

- Removes status effects

- Grants status immunity

- Hits in the entire area

- Is affected by range mods

- 50 energy cost

 

If this doesn't scream that something is wrong, then I don't know what will.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Racercowboy

[Anatolius]

I like the way Fire blast is

It's a choke point ability.

Slap it in a door way (eeven better with the augment

Slap it around the pod

Slap it on your kubrow

Heavy gunner too tall? jump up and slap it on her too

But really I don't use it as something to protect myself but an area to keep enemies out. It produces some interesting results as enemies don't tend to actually walk into the fire, which is what you want.

I've seen like a whole platoon of Napalms and Bombards stop in front of a closed door because fire blast was there.

It's kind of a bummer it doesn't work too well with accelerant unless you have the augment

But it's not bad in a pinch it works best with none infested enemies

Edited January 24, 2015 by Anatolius

[Racercowboy]

I like the way Fire blast is

It's a choke point ability.

Slap it in a door way (eeven better with the augment

Slap it around the pod

Slap it on your kubrow

Heavy gunner too tall? jump up and slap it on her too

But really I don't use it as something to protect myself but an area to keep enemies out. It produces some interesting results as enemies don't tend to actually walk into the fire, which is what you want.

I've seen like a whole platoon of Napalms and Bombards stop in front of a closed door because fire blast was there.

It's kind of a bummer it doesn't work too well with accelerant unless you have the augment

But it's not bad in a pinch

There is nothing wrong with the way you use it. But being that the damage range is so easy to avoid I feel as though half (or more than half) of the skill is not even being realized. Having the skill's DoT hit in the center won't affect your use of Fireblast at all. In fact, it'll help solidify being area denial by having said area in the center being hazardous as well as the border. Also, Accelerant + Fireball almost always trumps Fireblast alone when enemies are in tight corriders or clumped together. It gets even stronger if you use fire damage weapons.

 

The problem right now is there is nothing to truly justify spending 75 energy on Fireblast. It has the potential to fulfill something ember is truly missing (Reliable AoE damage over time) but it it's current state it can't even do less than that.

[Anatolius]

There is nothing wrong with the way you use it. But being that the damage range is so easy to avoid I feel as though half (or more than half) of the skill is not even being realized. Having the skill's DoT hit in the center won't affect your use of Fireblast at all. In fact, it'll help solidify being area denial by having said area in the center being hazardous as well as the border. Also, Accelerant + Fireball almost always trumps Fireblast alone when enemies are in tight corriders or clumped together. It gets even stronger if you use fire damage weapons.

 

The problem right now is there is nothing to truly justify spending 75 energy on Fireblast. It has the potential to fulfill something ember is truly missing (Reliable AoE damage over time) but it it's current state it can't even do less than that.

You aren't wrong about the center though

And I agree

I don't understand why the center is ok but everything else does damage. Defeats the purpose. The whole ring should be useful not the 5 meter thick circumstance

The panic in general should be more and just change the augment all together.

[Ailith]

You aren't wrong about the center though

And I agree

I don't understand why the center is ok but everything else does damage. Defeats the purpose. The whole ring should be useful not the 5 meter thick circumstance

The panic in general should be more and just change the augment all together.

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

[Ishki88]

Yeah I never understood why it's safe for the enemies to just enter the ring.  And the damage dealt from the ring isn't high enough to do any real damage before they enter the center.  

 

It's a good door stopper though xD

 

I only never understood why the enemies just stand there..and wait for the ring to disappear.  It looks really silly.  Well I know the reason is due to A.I which needs tweaking..until then I rather them enter the ring, catch fire then retreat.....without having to use an Augment

[tris1]

all it really needs is to have the centre of the ring made into a constant fire tick with all enemies hit run off in panic

[Anatolius]

I like the AI not coming into the circle. But under that same logic why do enemies freely walk across Oberon ' s hallowed ground. (Which is equally if not more dangerous)

[LisRestall]

You also need to mention that it pushes off the enemy out of the ring which hilariously beats the purpose. I'm actually dumbfounded on how alot are happy with the added CC on Fireblast when it's just redundant. As if they totally have no idea or never used Accelerant nor know what Accelerant does.

[tris1]

You also need to mention that it pushes off the enemy out of the ring which hilariously beats the purpose. I'm actually dumbfounded on how alot are happy with the added CC on Fireblast when it's just redundant. As if they totally have no idea or never used Accelerant nor know what Accelerant does.

its probably because like myself and others we saw no benefit in the old fireblast but now its got a bit of a buff but I do agree the cc is terrible as it does pushes targets out the ring so they then get no damage

[RealPandemonium]

There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away.  This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.

[SlyBoots]

fire blast had a very specific role, at first (going way back here) it didn't do squat because enemies just ran through the flames, took little damage. then for a short while it had guaranteed fire proc so it actually was area denial + damage over time. next DE thought that the AI should avoid a single power of one of the 20+ frames in the game and the ability became just area denial but ofc like everything that relies on AI it doesn't work all the time so sometimes the enemies still run through hardly taking damage... so for when the AI decides to not avoid the ring of fire but run through DE added an augment... because we might want a mod to make an ability work consistently... and now an area denial ability got spammable cc on top which as far as its role is concerned is completely random. no consideration behind that change, it just needed _something_ and the eximus ability was already coded...

Edited January 24, 2015 by SlyBoots

[Racercowboy]

Once upon a time, fire blast had a very specific role, at first (going way back here) it didn't do squat because enemies just ran through the flames, took little damage. then for a short while it had guaranteed fire proc so it actually was area denial + damage over time. next DE thought that the AI should avoid a single power of one of the 20+ frames in the game and the ability became just area denial but ofc like everything that relies on AI it doesn't work all the time so sometimes the enemies still run through hardly taking damage... so for when the AI decides to not avoid the ring of fire but run through DE added an augment... because we might want a mod to make an ability work consistently... and now an area denial ability got spammable cc on top which as far as its role is concerned is completely random. no consideration behind that change, it just needed _something_ and the eximus ability was already coded... To be continued.

Story of Fireblast in a nutshell. Added beginning and end for the lols.

 

 

You also need to mention that it pushes off the enemy out of the ring which hilariously beats the purpose. I'm actually dumbfounded on how alot are happy with the added CC on Fireblast when it's just redundant. As if they totally have no idea or never used Accelerant nor know what Accelerant does.

I thought I mentioned it in so many words (...Enemies get hit away from the ring which already had all the trouble in the world dealing damage...). Maybe it wasn't clear enough. I'll change it later so it's clearer.

 

I like the AI not coming into the circle. But under that same logic why do enemies freely walk across Oberon ' s hallowed ground. (Which is equally if not more dangerous)

I do not know why they happily cross into the Magic Carpet. It's like "Hey guys, this tenno won't bleed, Imma go and slice him open with my cleaver so he bleeds! dksahklajshfkjshf *dead*". I don't think enemies not going into the ring of fire is an issue, though I will admit with the skill being so terrible there may be hidden issues that we can't see simply because it doesn't work. Who knows, you might be right.

[geninrising]

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

This

[geninrising]

There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away.  This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.

Add this to the previous one.

[tris1]

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

 

There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away.  This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.

[Racercowboy]

I really don't agree with the Flame waves idea. It doesn't solve the problem mentioned several times already that flame wave of Fireblast is knocking enemies out of the DoT area. Keep in mind the DoT lasts 20 seconds, so two consecutive waves would knock them out. Maybe a final blast that knocks everyone away at the end? Could work, might be slightly awkward for some.

 

This suggestion seems to be the best thus far:

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

[RapplerSoon]

Iny my opinion DE should just reverse the changes to embers abilities and only keep the base stat increases like the armor and movement speed increase to give her some survivability. Caster frames are already inferior to tanky "shooting platform" frames like rhino and nerfing them by deactivating energy siphon during the key abilities doesn't really help balance them...

I like the CC ember has with Accelerant and Fireblast even if the mechanics are a little counter intuitive, but a caster should be able to cast his spells or even spam them as an alternative to firing your guns.

[geninrising]

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

 

There should be two flame waves: one small one that keeps enemies standing up and pushes them from inside the ring to the ring itself to burn, and then a second wave that starts outside the ring that knocks enemies down and pushes them far away.  This would combine the old mechanics with the new in harmony and make the ability satisfying to use in all situations.

TY for compiling my thought on those two posts tris1

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Solution: add DoT to the inside of the ring > fix AI to stop avoiding the ring > make the ring guarantee a fire panic proc, thus forcing AI to burn inside the ring > make a new augment mod that isn't completely useless (ie: one that shouldn't already be an inherent trait of fire).

 

^This. I always thought the panic of "sweet god I'm on fire" should be something Ember always has. I mean, the damage falls off to a pathetic degree, so that's not much help.

[RealPandemonium]

I really don't agree with the Flame waves idea. It doesn't solve the problem mentioned several times already that flame wave of Fireblast is knocking enemies out of the DoT area. Keep in mind the DoT lasts 20 seconds, so two consecutive waves would knock them out. Maybe a final blast that knocks everyone away at the end? Could work, might be slightly awkward for some.

 

This suggestion seems to be the best thus far:

The first flamewave would leave them in the dot area, making a wall of enemies on the ring part.  The second would begin outside the dot area and wouldn't affect those inside.

Edited January 26, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Racercowboy]

The first flamewave would leave them in the dot area, making a wall on enemies on the ring part.  The second would begin outside the dot area and wouldn't affect those inside.

ah, I see what you're saying now. In that case There's nothing wrong with it. The wall of fire does look cool anyway.

 

Forgot to add a comparison, will put it in the OP as well. The comparison of Fireblast and Hallowed Ground.

 

Fireblast (skill on a PURE DAMAGE frame):

- 3000 fire damage over 20 seconds

- knocks enemies over

- Might set people on fire

- Does not hit in the entire range

- Is not affected by range mods

- 75 energy cost

 

Hallowed Ground (skill on a HYBRID DAMAGE/SUPPORT frame)

- 4000 radiation damage over 20 seconds

- +20% armor to anyone standing in it. Is affected by power strength

- Removes status effects

- Grants status immunity

- Hits in the entire area

- Is affected by range mods

- 50 energy cost

 

What is this I can't even.

 

Seriously though, this is not right at all. I don't see how anyone can be satisfied with ember in her current state, especially Fireblast.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Racercowboy

[RealPandemonium]

Just to give an example of what would happen if my suggestion was implemented:

 

Assuming enemies are inside the ring and you're using this build: http://goo.gl/acdxT6

 

In the worst case, enemies inside the ring would take 477 fire damage immediately, with 954 damage applied as they flail helplessly (and block enemy bullets) over the next 6 seconds.  While that's happening, they are also standing inside the ring of fire, taking 1908 more damage for those 6 seconds as well (even more if any of those ticks proc.)  The end result is a 6 second disable and a total of 3339 damage dealt to enemies in the ring for the cost of 19 energy.  

 

If the initial damage headshots and you used Accelerant prior to casting (this is the most common scenario, btw,) they would take 6010 initial damage and 12020 damage over the next 6 seconds while flailing.  The damage from the ring itself during the flailing would add up to 12020 more damage.  In total, they would be disabled for 6 seconds and take a total of 30050 damage.  Not bad?  There's also nothing stopping you from dropping two Fire Blasts in quick succession and doubling the damage for bosses and heavies.

 

Accelerant and headshot modifiers make Ember's seemingly modest 1 and 3 damage numbers into monsters, far out-damaging WoF (though WoF has the benefit of being more flexible due to not having to aim and being active while you do other things.)

 

This build cuts duration significantly but you still get 6.5 seconds on WoF and Accelerant's damage boost lasts 10 seconds, which is plenty.  

 

As a final note, I would like to state that Fire Blast could achieve these damage numbers before the recent revisions; you just had to have the ring appear on the enemies that you wanted to burn.  My suggestion would cause all enemies inside the ring to be pushed to the ring itself, ensuring that they receive the additional damage while flailing.  Unfortunately, in the ability's current incarnation you won't get any ring damage because the flame wave pushes them out of it entirely, hence my suggestion.  

Edited January 26, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Archwizard]

Admittedly, I feel a shred of responsibility for this.

 

While a bunch of people were screaming for the removal of Fire Blast before Ember's latest change, I was a huge advocate for turning Fire Blast into a sort of melee Snow Globe, to recement Ember as the anti-Infested Warframe she had been before Damage 2.0. The idea was that you could run to an area where you could mount a defense, clear it out with a knockback, and then use fire procs to keep enemies from re-entering your circle of ultimate protection.

 

Of course, it had already been pointed out to me that some Embers stack Fire Blasts in one spot, using the initial fire proc to keep enemies stunned in the circle for more ticks. When the augment came out, I was more inclined to say that the knockback I'd been suggesting should be the augment, and that the base effect should include the stunlocking, the tradeoff from an effect like Bastille being the reduced range. Done this way, players could forgo the augment and continue with their usual methods.

 

Unfortunately, I think the devs caught onto the image of the final product but didn't catch the steps between.