Feedback On Nekros After Testing In T3 Survival Solo

[elele]

I'm confused now.  If desecrate is his core ability, why did you nerf his core ability so badly with your build in the OP?  

 

Because I'm using Desecrate not to get loot or oxygen, but to generate energy, ammo and health. Especially energy through Equilibrium and Despoil. 

 

I don't need Stretch or Overextended. Especially not Overextended. 

[Awazx]

Then we come to my biggest gripe with Desecrate. It is in truth nothing more than a patheticly badly designed band aid fix. You should not be able to use a skill to roll for more loot. The fact that it exists at all is concerning. If loot tables are that awful you fix them. End of story. You dont go and create an ability within the game(and then tie it to a single character to boot)that gives you another go and pretend everythings fine. Its lazy, and its an embarrassing reflection on the developer. It makes it look as if they dont care about fixing issues, but simply trying to cover them up. Shut just enough of your players up that you can get by and still pocket money. It gives me reason to worry that DE might just up and drop warframe when things take a turn rather than trying to fix it. At this point in time I dont believe thats at a high risk of happening, but when mechanics like this that I've never even seen in real cash grab games exist I cant help but be concerned.

 

+1. 

[MotherofHermes]

Because I'm using Desecrate not to get loot or oxygen, but to generate energy, ammo and health. Especially energy through Equilibrium and Despoil. 

 

I don't need Stretch or Overextended. Especially not Overextended. 

Desecrate. is. bad. design. 

 

it promotes:

 

power gaming (bringing a necros for more roles on a loot table means your loot table is flawed or nekros is over powered). 

Low interaction with enemy units (don't get shot while standing in a finger waggle animation for the whole mission)

No player input (3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3. walking 3.3.3.3.3.3 half of this can be done with a macro). 

boring gameplay unless you throughly enjoy farmville over space ninja's. 

low theme (necromancers do not make loot appear. they kill things and make dead things do stuff. violent stuff. cool stuff. not ammo)

conflict with the game's core ideas and concepts (because in survivals i press 3 more than i shoot my gun, parcore, or kill things)

 

If you promote desecrate. you promote bad design.

 

If you believe his kit is focused around desecrate. you are right. but it is wrong. 

 

Just to get my point across.

Imagine you are playing a standard mmorpg. the game has healers, dps, and tanks. now imagine they invented another class. it was like a healer. but instead of healing, swinging a sword, casting spells, or anything else that looked cool it right clicked on dead bodies and looted again for the party.

 

would that party member be sought after. yes. would it be wanted in a team. yes. would it be played. yes.

 

would it be fun? only for those who like grinding for shiny "hats"

 

If you continue to promote desecrate you will most likely be ignored by anyone who prefers actively doing things in this game and anyone who has an eye for game design. case in point archwizard's (Opening post of one of the longest running retune threads). 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-129-not-the-final-pass-at-nekros-right/

 

If this thread wants to continue people need to be aware that 

A: nekros should not be a loot button. loot buttons are boring.

B: nekros needs to be compared to other frames and looked at through the big picture of the game. currently a "support" role is not viable. everyone takes out big targets. everyone kills the scary things in the room. everyone has access to powers with no cost other than energy. what nekros current has is what could be described as a proactive cooldown:

 

a cooldown that you have to do something in order to reduce. 

 

while every other frame is hitting 4 with only energy as a gate (in a game where energy is easy to comeby). nekros (with no other damaging moves (don't you freaking dare bringing up terrify, the enemy runs away too fast for that to be effective)) has to also pay "kill X many targets." 

 

Am i saying SOTD is a bad move? no. I am saying: it's not fair. nekros has to do twice as much work as the other guys to be effective. he doesn't have time for that crap in the first place while he is pressing 3. 

[ThePredicament]

There are obviously many factors in Nek's gameplay that polarizes opinions on his ability set such as skill, adaptability, and obviously being able to actually comprehend what the skills are about.

 

First off, this whole Desecrate thing being a tool for loot? It's not, those are GREAT side effects, but it's mainly for health orbs and ammo. There are no other frames in the whole entire game that can provide ammo like Neks can. With that in mind, PREPARATION is a very very important aspect of playing Neks. With a gun (Braton P) that can split enemies and has punch through, you can easily TRIPLE sometimes quadruple, your loot drops just by shooting at dead bodies, at face value it may seem like great more loots but at the same time to get the same results, using Desecrate a fraction of the normal amount will yield the same results. That leaves Neks to do battle and other support roles without having to spam 3, which is probably the reason for such a huge disparity between players and Neks skill level. Not saying it doesn't need a rework (because it does) but constantly having to press 3 is not just because of the skill but the user actual preparedness too.

 

Shadows is a meat shield, just like every other mass summoning (zombies, skeletons) in other games. They aren't there to fill some super squad role, they're there to take damage and aggro as long as they are alive and maybe do some damage, add shields, instantly revive a teammate, or add resistances with auras. There are absolutely no other skills in the game that can do that. Shadows also scales with enemy composition and not just levels. Does it do what it needs to do? Yeah it does.

 

The people complaining about Shadows are pitting it against the worst scenarios and comparing it to skills that are either in regular or great situations. For example, Chaos is great but against one enemy maybe three or four scattered around, it will not do anything worth the points spent on it, whereas Terrify against one or three enemies would be better. Does this mean Chaos is awful? No. Same with Disarm when the pod is already swarmed or Cat as a nuke. Same thing with not having any souls at the start of the game or in areas that would clutter up the screen.

 

Also, Terrify IS a CC skill but not in the same vein as Chaos. Terrify is for HUNTING enemies down or just straight out benching them (in some cases better than Chaos, god/dess of CC). Again, skill is required because they are moving but they aren't exactly zigzagging to avoid fire, in a small room, they are absolutely harmless.

 

Overall though, I don't care either way. If they buff Shadows and Desecrate, that's great. Makes great Neks players even better and bad ones decent.

Edited February 1, 2015 by TheLocalHentai

[MotherofHermes]

There are obviously many factors in Nek's gameplay that polarizes opinions on his ability set such as skill, adaptability, and obviously being able to actually comprehend what the skills are about.

 

First off, this whole Desecrate thing being a tool for loot? It's not, those are GREAT side effects, but it's mainly for health orbs and ammo. There are no other frames in the whole entire game that can provide ammo like Neks can. With that in mind, PREPARATION is a very very important aspect of playing Neks. With a gun (Braton P) that can split enemies and has punch through, you can easily TRIPLE sometimes quadruple, your loot drops just by shooting at dead bodies, at face value it may seem like great more loots but at the same time to get the same results, using Desecrate a fraction of the normal amount will yield the same results. That leaves Neks to do battle and other support roles without having to spam 3, which is probably the reason for such a huge disparity between players and Neks skill level.

 

So. i should be shooting...at dead things....

 

I shouldn't be shooting at the enemies that are still alive...i should be shooting...at dead things...to make ammo....and health orbs....

 

i'm trying to make sure i did not misunderstand. 

 

mkay. im just going to point that part and move on. If you can't see the problem with that idea. that's fine. My next point is still valid.

 

No matter how many pieces/parts/heads/chests/etc. are on the floor. there is a chance that i hit desecrate and nothing happens. there is a chance for failure on this move. i think that's my biggest issue. Then i have the option to cast it again. so what do i do. i cast it. so that my previous role on the "will it desecrate" chance doesn't seem like a waste. 

 

my biggest issue with this power is the fact that IT CAN FAIL COMPLETELY. it's unlikely. but it can. no other power in the game that is aoe has this ability to fail other than if you miss.....

 

I like shooting my gun. stabbing with swords. and casting badass space ninja magic. when desecrate fails.....because rng..... I am not accomplishing any of those. 

 

I should not have a game with a power that simulates turning the key in your car multiple times trying to get it to start. that level of frustration in a pve environment. is bad. 

 

when i hit desecrate. either it should work or at the very least the bodies should be removed so that i don't feel like i have to "make it work" the power is done and i can move on with my life/slaughter. 

 

or you know. the move could be replaced with something else. like an aoe damage spell. a healing spell. stealth. anything more fun then the move that mimics a car with a bad spark plug. 

[ThePredicament]

It takes ONE shot to split multiple bodies, most of the time it doesn't even have to be dead bodies (they can split before falling down). You want to make up situations that aren't likely to happen, hyperbole an explanation because you have the need to SPAM 3, and stay ignorant even though I just gave you an amazing tip to PREVENT Desecrate fatigue? Go ahead, no one is stopping you.

I only press 3 once or twice when LS is at 85 to top off to 100 or my health has actual visual damage. There's a difference in gameplay style here, one that presses 3 a few times and get the same results and another that spams 3 to the point of frustration. Are you telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I should condemn a skill because I'm using it in a smarter way?

[MotherofHermes]

It takes ONE shot to split multiple bodies, most of the time it doesn't even have to be dead bodies (they can split before falling down). You want to make up situations that aren't likely to happen, hyperbole an explanation because you have the need to SPAM 3, and stay ignorant even though I just gave you an amazing tip to PREVENT Desecrate fatigue? Go ahead, no one is stopping you.

I only press 3 once or twice when LS is at 85 to top off to 100 or my health has actual visual damage. There's a difference in gameplay style here, one that presses 3 a few times and get the same results and another that spams 3 to the point of frustration. Are you telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I should condemn a skill because I'm using it in a smarter way?

Should you have to cast it twice?

[ThePredicament]

Not really sure if you are just singling this skill out for spam when there are plenty of other skills that are spammed like crazy.

 

So should I cast it twice? If I feel like should or when I want to, it's a 13 energy cast for me, no biggie.

[MotherofHermes]

Not really sure if you are just singling this skill out for spam when there are plenty of other skills that are spammed like crazy.

 

So should I cast it twice? If I feel like should or when I want to, it's a 13 energy cast for me, no biggie.

Because. abilities shouldn't just fail. 

 

imagine if ember's fireball had a chance of doing 1 damage or her standard damage. imagine the frustration of having to cast it a second time because it didn't get the job done the first time. This, if nothing else, is silly. 

 

desecrate has the possibility of doing nothing. I don't want my power to do nothing, that's why its called a power. 

 

and i guess you are right about the braton thing. i might give that a try. 

[ThePredicament]

That's the thing, it's like missing an ember fireball or putting the crosshair on an enemy but the skill won't work because the dot is not on them, you pressed the button, nothing happened, gotta press it again. Desecrate doesn't have a check or balance on accuracy and, yes I fully agree, it's frustrating to do it and that one body doesn't give up goods but at the same time, it's really Neks that needs to litter the ground and make the chance more likely to happen, THAT's your skill "aim" (which is also absurdly easy to do), the more you kill/split the better you've aimed at the enemy. If it's a full miss, which should be rare, then try again later.

[PsychoticMarik]

It takes ONE shot to split multiple bodies, most of the time it doesn't even have to be dead bodies (they can split before falling down). You want to make up situations that aren't likely to happen, hyperbole an explanation because you have the need to SPAM 3, and stay ignorant even though I just gave you an amazing tip to PREVENT Desecrate fatigue? Go ahead, no one is stopping you.

I only press 3 once or twice when LS is at 85 to top off to 100 or my health has actual visual damage. There's a difference in gameplay style here, one that presses 3 a few times and get the same results and another that spams 3 to the point of frustration. Are you telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I should condemn a skill because I'm using it in a smarter way?

I cant believe I'm consistently reading posts by you about how desecrates sorry state isnt as bad as we make it out to be. It is. Its been explained to death why. Its not hyperbole to say that you often have to spam 3 multiple times to get all the parts of bodies to re-roll. Its something that happens consistently, and we do have to spam it to get the most out of it. If your in groups that want to camp a location you wont be doing anything else. Preventing desecrate fatigue? It starts the moment it needs to be used more than once. Its bad design, and DE should be embarrassed thats its in their game.

 

This ability is no where near the level of other frames spammable abilities. Not even close, and thats also been explained in previous posts.

Desecrate not being used as a loot tool, but instead for health and ammo? Are you actually being serious? If anything the health and ammo are the side effects. Its the chance at better loot that people bring him around for.

 

You can get away with only using 3 a handful of times, but again you only get the most out of it if you use it till you cant use it anymore, and your team expects this of you more often than not. Were not telling you to condemn a skill because your "using it smarter". Were telling you to condemn it because its awful game design. Its that simple, and we have all given plenty of reasons for a fair minded person to understand why. Yet all I ever see in response are posts with an air of condescension. That we simply dont understand how to play him properly. That were too stupid to comprehend a simple 4 button character in a pve game. Its insulting, and defending bad design isnt helping the game.

[ThePredicament]

Do you not comprehend what you are reading? No one is saying the skill is perfect because it's been agreed upon that IT DOES NEED A REWORK but there are ways to prevent having to spam it like you are doing. Throughout this WHOLE entire thread, people are overblowing this (Which I've stated from the very very beginning). It's up to you how you use the skill and what results you want from it. It's not condescension when it's true, it's overly exaggerated because it's not being used properly, which I explained how to.

 

You can get away with only using 3 a handful of times, but again you only get the most out of it if you use it till you cant use it anymore, and your team expects this of you more often than not.

 

And this is where this argument is just dumb. No one is expecting anyone to spam 3 and no one is expecting to use it until they can't use it anymore, even those recruiting for a Neks. Doing the job and spamming is where players need to draw the line and if they don't, it's completely their fault for spamming it (which AGAIN, is not a big deal with smart Dessing). There are absolutely no negative impact to gameplay if the a Neks doesn't press 3 more than one. Basing an argument against Desecrate on a faulty argument is stupid. YOU have the choice to do it or not and at what frequency. It's not fair/right to call awful design because people can't control themselves and/or have the unnecessary NEED to do it again and again, like some heroin addict.

 

EDIT: Also, you get the most out of it on the first cast, diminishing returns and all that. Just sayin'

Edited February 1, 2015 by TheLocalHentai

[Telzen]

Desecrate not being used as a loot tool, but instead for health and ammo? Are you actually being serious? If anything the health and ammo are the side effects. Its the chance at better loot that people bring him around for.

 

I use desecrate for health/energy, ammo, and oxygen. Desecrate doesn't give better loot, just more loot. And we all really need more of those trash mods we have millions of right?

[PsychoticMarik]

Do you not comprehend what you are reading? No one is saying the skill is perfect because it's been agreed upon that IT DOES NEED A REWORK but there are ways to prevent having to spam it like you are doing. Throughout this WHOLE entire thread, people are overblowing this (Which I've stated from the very very beginning). It's up to you how you use the skill and what results you want from it. It's not condescension when it's true, it's overly exaggerated because it's not being used properly, which I explained how to.

 

 

And this is where this argument is just dumb. No one is expecting anyone to spam 3 and no one is expecting to use it until they can't use it anymore, even those recruiting for a Neks. Doing the job and spamming is where players need to draw the line and if they don't, it's completely their fault for spamming it (which AGAIN, is not a big deal with smart Dessing). There are absolutely no negative impact to gameplay if the a Neks doesn't press 3 more than one. Basing an argument against Desecrate on a faulty argument is stupid. YOU have the choice to do it or not and at what frequency. It's not fair/right to call awful design because people can't control themselves and/or have the unnecessary NEED to do it again and again, like some heroin addict.

And this is where we wont ever agree. This idea that groups arent wanting, and actively asking you to spam it are exactly the opposite of my experience playing Nekros. Call it bad luck with groups if you want,  call it me not having enough play time with warframe and Nekros if you want(tho at 300 hours with around 45% of that time spent playing Nekros I'd like to know just HOW MUCH time I have to play), call it me feeding you BS for all I care, but when every other group I get into gets on my case about how I'm not spamming it enough I'm going to develope this perception. When all I get to do as Nekros in T4 survivals is hit 3 in a corner while my team kills everything in the spot were camping I'm not going to be convinced this inst as big a deal as people make it out to be. Believe me I'm not addicted to using this skill. I hate having to use it at all. I'm not spamming it unless my team is *@##$ing for me to spam, and in my play time this happens more often than it should.

Btw we arent calling it awful design because "people cant control themselves and have a need to spam it". The reason its bad design has already been explained in depth in this topic alone. Not to mention every other Nekros topic that discusses desecrate. If you want  an explanation for why its design is awful you only need to go back a page or two.

EDIT: Also, you get the most out of it on the first cast, diminishing returns and all that. Just sayin'

I'm simply going to have to agree to disagree with you on this.

Edited February 1, 2015 by PsychoticMarik

[ThePredicament]

This is my last post about this.

 

I have 1200 hours in this game, ~120 hours of those is on Neks (so you have more than me). I see the same argument about Desecrate spam (or just about all his kit, Terrify got fixed), but what I don't see is the actual gameplay style.

 

Do people short hop or wave dash on occasion to make Desu still mobile?

Do they reload cancel with Desu so it practically cuts time on both reload AND Desu animation? Better with Nat Tal.

Do people properly equip themselves for weapons that suits Nek's gameplay style?

Do people split bodies, even if it's teammate kills to get a much higher chance to proc?

Do people actually just Desu after clearing out the room? It takes ~15 seconds for bodies to disappear, much more if splitting after, can even split MPrime kills to extend there time. On a regular game that's plenty of time for clearing a room.

 

I have never seen a single one of these mentioned, just "gotta spam 3". It's the reason why I keep citing skill because short hopping, wave dashing, reload cancelling, body splitting are exactly the things that make "gotta spam 3" almost nonexistent. Like I said, the skill has diminishing returns and without actively killing stuff after the first Des, it's not going to change much except changing perception against it.

[PsychoticMarik]

This is my last post about this.

 

I have 1200 hours in this game, ~120 hours of those is on Neks (so you have more than me). I see the same argument about Desecrate spam (or just about all his kit, Terrify got fixed), but what I don't see is the actual gameplay style.

 

Do people short hop or wave dash on occasion to make Desu still mobile?

Do they reload cancel with Desu so it practically cuts time on both reload AND Desu animation? Better with Nat Tal.

Do people properly equip themselves for weapons that suits Nek's gameplay style?

Do people split bodies, even if it's teammate kills to get a much higher chance to proc?

Do people actually just Desu after clearing out the room? It takes ~15 seconds for bodies to disappear, much more if splitting after, can even split MPrime kills to extend there time. On a regular game that's plenty of time for clearing a room.

These are decent points to make, and the average player is probably not aware of them, but these only slightly help with a badly designed ability. Its still the core issue of desecrates function that creates its problem. I make use of all these tips you mentioned with the exception of making regular use of the wave dash method. Its just not a habbit I've gotten into of yet. Its more of something I have to attempt to get myself to do right now rather than having it be 2nd nature. Which is fine as this is something that applies to just about anything and desecrates design flaws arent influencing this. 15 seconds is genearlly enough time thats true, but the time for infested is a problem in this specific area. Since there time is about 3 to 4 seconds if I'm not mistaken. These things however only apply to playing casually or in short non endless mission types generally speaking. In T4 D or S people camp up and want you to use it as often as possible. Which all ties back into what others and myself have been saying about desecrates problems and bad design mechanics. When you get into mission types like these you wont be given much time if any for anything but using 3. Due to how often everyone else will be making more bodies, and how often desecrate fails to even roll anything extra at all. You're on loot duty, and thats the issue.

I have never seen a single one of these mentioned, just "gotta spam 3". It's the reason why I keep citing skill because short hopping, wave dashing, reload cancelling, body splitting are exactly the things that make "gotta spam 3" almost nonexistent. Like I said, the skill has diminishing returns and without actively killing stuff after the first Des, it's not going to change much except changing perception against it.

The reason you dont see people mention the things you listed above is because 1: alot of people arent aware. 2: It hardly ever applies to more serious or high lvl content runs because of the reasons I mentioned above. 3: Because we dont want to give DE any reasons what so ever to feel like they can just let it remain as is. Listing these things acts almost as a defense in favor of keeping desecrate as it is(even if thats not the intent), and can give other players and DE impressions of this ability requiring more skill than it actually does(which is almost none). Potentially creating a perception of it not being the horribly designed band aid fix of an ability that it is. These arent skillful tactics. They are work arounds that we find to try to make desecrate less annyoing for ourselves.

 

The diminishing returns factor is also a decent point to bring up, but good luck explaining that to the players that only want you around to have you spam 3. They arent reasonable people as it is, and they certainly arent gonna listen when you try to explain this. Even if it were common knowledge it still doesnt change the root problems with the ability.

 

Thats the point I'm trying to get across, and its why I'm always arguing against desecrate remaining as it is. As it has no redeeming qualities.

Edited February 1, 2015 by PsychoticMarik

[geninrising]

Simple Fix for Desecrate: Make it a durational AOE. Have it check every second it's active for a body to try and get loot from. Thus we stop Nekros 3 spam while helping his 2 and 4 simultaneously. It's not hard folks.

 

His 4 on the other hand is more problematic. AI needs to be changed to the infested mentality of being hyper aggressive always seeking out targets. Also with the way enemy shields/armor scale it becomes imperative that Shadows gain a scaling mechanic of their own on damage as the x2 multiplier sincerely does not cut it UNLESS DE also implements a command mechanic allowing Nekros to direct his entire armies aggression upon specific targets and lets them behave nominally unless directed.

[taiiat]

Shadows of the Dead would most ideally use the same AI as Specters.

Specters aren't computer geniuses, but they're not half bad. they're capable in combat.

 

better still, then they'd probably follow you. so you'd have a posse that follows you. they won't be taped to your hips or anything, but they also hopefully wouldn't stay in some room when you're so far away.

 

 

 

and ofcourse it would be great if you filled your Soul Pool in a different way. such as idk, Enemies killed by Nekros (maybe even just killed by anyone? :o) within N seconds after being hit by Soul Punch?

idunno.

some way that would let you select your Shadows without having to just not fight certain Enemies, even if they're trying to kill you.

 

 

 

and then there's Desecrate affecting Resources, Oxygen, and Mods - but that's been fully explained how detrimental it is to Players at large many, many times, so i don't want to write all of that down all over again.

[SnakeWildlife]

Along with AI fixes i still think the damage doesnt scale well.

Change +150% summon damage to between +250% - +300%

[quietcanary]

Wow man and still NOTHING but absolutely exaggerated complaints were given. My whole point was you were blowing it out of proportion and complaining about a skill that YOU were using poorly. Especially when "entering a match and killing only a crawler" is your argument. Absolute failure.

 

-Punch through is a legend now? Braton Prime for Nekros is one of the best choices because of splitting. Shooting a couple of rounds will likely hit and split tons of enemies in a lot (if not most) situations.

-Seriously, who runs out of Shadows after two casts? Do you sit there, cast it, stand still/hide until the expire, recast until the cap is used? This is such an overblown and awful argument.

-Killing being hard because of needing to endlessly spam 3 is a player problem. And again (and again), something that skill and proper set up can easily take care of. Braton P, splitting bodies, a couple presses of 3, that's it.

-Completely missed the point of Halo having throw away weapons and even then Swords, Hammers, were still throw away.

-Skill ceiling is doesn't mean difficulty.

-Apparently thinking strategically is now an opinion. You think Cat is a nuke with Limbo too? You speak of strategy but can't even understand that the skill needs strategy to use properly.

-Less strong infested? Armor is one of the reason that MAKES higher level gaming hard (hence 3-4cp). Corrupted can one hit kill at 30 and they run just as fast with high armor. Vanilla anything isn't good? Chaos is vanilla as they come and it's not even an ult.

I know what punch through is. I don't know what you mean by splitting. Iv never seen a single Braton prime bullet kill more than 2 enemies at once let alone a wave. What are you talking about.

If you have even one strength mod on it takes 2 casts to burn out to cap. With more it's less. Sometimes iv got people that need reviving or a pod that needs saving so I don't start killing things imediatly. How hard is to to believe in a situation where you're not perfect? it happens. Don't treat it like I'm wrong out of hand when everyone here besides you clearly agrees.

Okay. Yes. I see. Youre perfect and the best nekros player ever and can desicrate, kill, revive, handle objectives, and juggle all at ounce. Or desicrate takes to long to cast, takes up nekros players time almost completely and is a well known and documented issue everyone knows about. Ok.

I know what you are trying to argue better than you do. You don't mean expendable you mean replaceable or interchangeable. Every weapon in Halo is expendable for sure but what you mean is that halo weapons are picked up and used until empty, equally as often and with little care. My point is that nobody does that with halo. Most people who played halo were anal about which weapons they picked up and would refuse to use others. So sure they were Hammers and swords where "throw away" but you used every last drop and then camped the spawn until you could get another.

If you don't think skill cap has any bearing on when something is considered difficult then I can't explain it to you.

There is a difference between needing strategy to be effective, and needing strategy to have any effect. If it's limited by strategy on if it is even useful whatsoever instead of how useful it is then that's not strategy that's planing so flaws don't waste your cast. Strategy shouldn't be a band aid. Cat is a great example. Use it with strategy and all youve got is a skill that isn't even close to being as good as it could be, and using it without it leaves you with a wasted cast and sometimes even a additional issue.

I'd rather fight disarmed grineer than infested. Infested have gap closers, strange hit boxes, and the most evil support in the game. Disarmed grineer have rollers, telegraphed to high hell swings, short range, and the occasional heavy ground slam.

I said isn't very good, and vanilla chaos isn't very good. It's not bad but it isn't very good. Unless you are arguing it is in fact "very good" then I have nothing to say. If you are then alright. Doesn't really rock my boat.