A Notice To De!

[geninrising]

Over the years playing Warframe I have seen a torrential flood of content flow forth from Digital Extremes. Sometimes great, and sometimes not very inspired. There are many things communicated to DE throughout the course of a day by it's fans and most ardent supporters.

 

Many of us are committed to ensuring this game moves forward and evolves to a truly untouchable state as the number one multiplayer game online. There are those of us who have put in over one thousand hours in game and are highly adept at recognizing weaknesses in any particular facet of this project. 

 

We spend many hours discussing relevant issues and TRYING to get DE to actually notice matters within these forums that pertain to their lifeblood. Warframe is a passion of ours that causes many heated debates over various issues and occurrences. Sure we have our trolls and a few that are not quite as adept at recognizing where some frames/weapons strengths lie, but on the whole I often feel that the player base is in fact even more knowledgeable than it's developers.

 

Why? Because we spend hours and hours both playing the game ensuring our hands on experience matches up precisely with all the data we peruse and time being in many discussions regarding various issues that are long standing or newly arisen.

 

Now comes the problem. There are thousands upon thousands of posts regarding various frames/weapons that go completely unheeded for months and months. Weapons lie unused. Frames see the light of day only for newer users and are subsequently forgotten.

 

Then lo and behold one of our old fan favorites gets a look and is tweaked just slightly. Subsequently the forums are lit on fire by a massive torrent of feedback and what happens...we get a certain dev making statements that the frame in question is "In a good place". I'll not commit to name shaming here regarding said dev but I do question if this person is actually playing this game and understands all it's issues at the moment.

 

Feedback is delivered by this player base on a constant basis and while some of it is not penned in the most eloquent manner, it is all provided with a passion rarely seen from gamers in today's day and age.

 

Free to play games online are quite often just ignored once things start to go downhill. In Warframes case though, the community has taken it upon ourselves to push you developers harder than any other studio I have seen to date. We make it known where we see problems and try to ensure that possible solutions to the various quandaries that you may have are broached and discussed amongst a much larger party than you have in office. Thus we try to garner the best possible answers to these problems from among the individuals they will affect the most. It's players.

 

Yes some people's suggestions are outlandish, and some are perfectly balanced and workable within the confines of balance. What we need from you at DE is constant vigilance and an eye on the problems we report. We need Constant balance improvements to various frames and weapons. We do not need to have our concerns regarding various matters subsequently ignored or disregarded.

 

If this fact bothers you, suck it up cupcake. It will not stop at any point so long as you choose to be a purveyor of entertainment.

 

In short get it right the first time you try to do something. If you don't, fix it. In fact continue to fix it until we no longer rant about it for 50-300 pages of text.

 

Lastly finish fixing Ember and Nekros before you do ANYTHING ELSE. Stop allowing yourselves to be side tracked and most of all PAY ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY DECIDE WHEN SOMETHING IS IN A GOOD PLACE.

[XxCurtennoxX]

I definitely don't feel like Ember is "in a good place". I've made a couple posts about why having a toggle and duration on her WoF is not good at all. Even sent it to Rebecca along with a bug but they acknowledged the bug and I'm not sure the information about Ember was noticed. When we wanted a toggle, that meant we wanted no duration. WoF feels worse especially for duration builds, and the toggle doesn't even serve a purpose for the ability whilst it has duration. Mirages Prism is fine because of the Cc we get after it ends, but with Ember it's just pointless.

[SgtFlex]

Personally, I think Ember and Nekros are both in a better place now. I have used both equally as much. WoF still needs work, but I definitely love using Nekros, and he feels a lot more useful than he was before (I still think his Desecrate needs changing though so he's a choice and not a job)

 

They'll probably put some finishing touches on them, but everyone in their studio has their own job. It's usually that 1 guy and his team (The Better Nerf Trinity guy, I can't remember the name :P) that handles most of the balancing concerning these, and Steve as well.

[geninrising]

Personally, I think Ember and Nekros are both in a better place now. I have used both equally as much. WoF still needs work, but I definitely love using Nekros, and he feels a lot more useful than he was before (I still think his Desecrate needs changing though so he's a choice and not a job)

 

They'll probably put some finishing touches on them, but everyone in their studio has their own job. It's usually that 1 guy and his team (The Better Nerf Trinity guy, I can't remember the name :P) that handles most of the balancing concerning these, and Steve as well.

Oh, please do not get me wrong. In this post I am pointing directly at the Balance team as I assume they are the ones who handle these things judging by all the dev streams. This post is in regard to the various frame reworks that have occurred and the states in which the various frames languish for extensive periods of time before they finally hit the drawing board again. This post is aimed at ensuring that DE is given an ear full(or in this case an eye full) in as eloquent a manner as I am capable of providing.

 

They need to be heeding the countless hours of feedback we provide and consequently making changes to a point where they are not consistently bombarded with insane amounts of feedback on a matter. When the feedback STOPS in regard to a matter is when it is "In a good place" and not when they think it is. 

 

The fact of the matter is that many things get overlooked for so long that they just get ignored by not only the devs but by the players too. What that causes is a piece of the game to virtually die and I would hate to see that occur in any aspect of Warframe. I want to see literally every single frame used equally across the WF universe. I never want to play with the same composition of frames even twice in a single day given the chance.

 

Variety is the spice of life and in Warframes case it's major draw. Anything that is considered mastery fodder or pump and dump needs to be changed but it's most dangerous occurrences of this mindset occur with it's frames.

 

Warframes are the most essential feature and cannot afford to be allowed to languish in an unused state.

Edited January 31, 2015 by geninrising

[Haukai]

I completely agree with you OP.
There is a lot of well balanced, and really well appreciated Feedback that simply cannot go unseen from the Devs because of the popularity of the threads, and yet, they just completely ignore them and go on and forth. This is killing some of the older player's base, and this needs to change.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Personally, I think Ember and Nekros are both in a better place now. I have used both equally as much. WoF still needs work, but I definitely love using Nekros, and he feels a lot more useful than he was before (I still think his Desecrate needs changing though so he's a choice and not a job)

 

They'll probably put some finishing touches on them, but everyone in their studio has their own job. It's usually that 1 guy and his team (The Better Nerf Trinity guy, I can't remember the name :P) that handles most of the balancing concerning these, and Steve as well.

The tweaks to them are nice and all, but there's still frames that do Ember's job better, and as you said Nekros is still more of a job than a choice to play. I still don't find myself playing him in anything other than survival because even with the Terrify changes, other frames perform CC much better. He's still only gonna be used for Survival really, and he still doesn't feel amazing to play. 

 

As for Ember, well, feel free to read my topic so i don't have to write everything again: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/391188-so-should-world-on-fires-duration-be-removed/#entry4314276

 

The changes to under-appreciated frames were nice, but i can't help but feel like Ember needs tweaks to WoF for her to be fun to play, because at the moment, WoF feels exactly the same as the old one, apart from the 'instant 5 target' buff. 

[geninrising]

The tweaks to them are nice and all, but there's still frames that do Ember's job better, and as you said Nekros is still more of a job than a choice to play. I still don't find myself playing him in anything other than survival because even with the Terrify changes, other frames perform CC much better. He's still only gonna be used for Survival really, and he still doesn't feel amazing to play. 

 

As for Ember, well, feel free to read my topic so i don't have to write everything again: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/391188-so-should-world-on-fires-duration-be-removed/#entry4314276

 

The changes to under-appreciated frames were nice, but i can't help but feel like Ember needs tweaks to WoF for her to be fun to play, because at the moment, WoF feels exactly the same as the old one, apart from the 'instant 5 target' buff. 

The entire point here is that all frames should be equally viable at their given role with no appreciable difference between them except in their mechanics. DE has constantly stated that they refuse to accept the statement that there are certain tiers of frames in various categories. I am simply putting out a notice that they should stand by there word and make it true rather than a byline with no representation in reality.

 

Make all frames worthy of a slot in the party. Allow no frame to be relegated to the dust closet and forgotten.

[EvanTheNewbie]

DE is losing touch with their playerbase, just a bit. They pride themselves on user feedback, so I hope they don't lose that element in their development. Who better to decide what works and what doesn't than the people playing this game for thousands of hours.

[Mirriky]

I've been wanting to write a post like this for weeks, not just regarding recent events but the fact it happens over and over again.

DE has said this is the year of quality, and I will give them this year to start listening.

 

So often a problem will only be fixed if it is directly in DE's interests to do so, and rarely in the interest of the player. If it is done for the player, it will be a half thought out bandaid slapped on then ignored.

 

It's gotten to the point I no longer consider this a 'community driven game' they so fondly proclaim.

[rockscl]

 

 

You know, i think that as devs, if they try to listen to the players they can easily be overwhelmed by the volume of feedback, i think they basically need to pay attention to how the game causes frustration in three aspects:

 

Controls

Rewards

Balance

 

Pick what the players report in such matters, sort it in priorities, and recognizedly assign some "team" to aim player feedback in such regards so by the end of 2015 we can say "lol dis game feels more polished naow"

Edited January 31, 2015 by rockscl

[quietcanary]

I agree 100%

Hot topics are anything but hot. Things we vote on in council or outside of it are not anything worth voting on.

"Do you think we should make more of a specific thing?"

-yes

-for sure

-why are we voting on this?

-does anybody actually say no?

Feels like that's symbolic of all player feedback related responses besides bugs...

"Holy shiz, there is a small hole in the map?!!? Best give this a IMEDIATE dev response!"

[ColRobHoward]

I have been a player of Warframe since the days of Operation Slingshot. I have see a slough of new things added to the game, but almost never do I see a fix for something that is deficient. Something has happened that really makes me want to quit the game. A couple of powers have been gimped. Rhino Charge and Tidal Surge have an effective range of 1 to 2 meters (relative to in game character size) while using Fleeting Expertise. This renders these powers absoltely useless or the mod Fleeting Expertise (which I worked hard to get). Something else that is infuriating, Panthera, which requires quite a bit of stuff to build, can't hit the broad side of a barn. It seems that things like these will continue to happen with no attention from DE and players will just have to bite it. Instead of promoting the game to gamer friends I am no going to steer them away until I see some basic fixes.

Edited January 31, 2015 by ColRobHoward

[Awazx]

Excellent post Op. Mature, well developed, and that exposes a deeper problem.

 

 

I'll not commit to name shaming here regarding said dev but I do question if this person is actually playing this game and understands all it's issues at the moment.

 

l PAY ATTENTION TO THE PLAYERS BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY DECIDE WHEN SOMETHING IS IN A GOOD PLACE.

 

We all know that developing a game like Warframe is complex. It takes time. Thousand errors occur continuously. It is understood and forgiven.

 

However, I completely agree with OP. The game is full of problems dragging on for months (or years). And worse, is that an understanding of these problems are not perceived by the current dev.

 

We, the players, are writing in this forum thousand times problems requiring urgent solution. On the contrary, either we receive the silence from DE, or see amazed as these problems are obviated upgrade upgrade.

 

True, the game has improved a lot in recent months. But the feeling is that you are giving new content "improvement", "expansion" without touching the base manifold problems affecting the gameplay, the player loyalty and enjoyment of all facets offered by the game.

[sickness24]

I feel that somehow your frame of reference is a bit off. There could be a thousand complaints on the forums, but not every player is actually on the forums.

 

There seems to be a disconnect not between DE and the players but with the people who activly participate in the forums and the people more preoccupied with the game. This is where the major issue comes from, DE cant satisfy both and because there isnt any good interaction between these groups both think they are being ignored.

 

I dabble on the forums from time to time and play the game (and discuss things in the council chat where most of the time when the game is being discussed its done intelligently) but only one place has me dissapointed more often than not because there isnt any direct interaction between debaters. This problem cant easily be solved but it could be a good step in the right direction if someone actually communicated what the different opinions are between people who complain and people who debate

[DrBorris]

I just wrote a decent reply, but then chrome had to erase it all, so I am just going to summarize what I had.

 

Yes, DE has trouble finishing their projects. Also, DE never really "reworks" frames, they just "tweak" them. Adjusting damage, range, duration, cast time, status, and adding basic elements but leaving the basics of a ability intact is just "tweaking". Reworking is going back to the drawing board and really adding new elements that alter ability usage. Ember and Nekros need some reworks, not just tweaks, fire Blast needs to go back to the drawing board, and no amount of status buffs or energy drain elements to WoF will fix it. WoF is boring and damage based. I could go on but... I am still upset with my internet browser.

 

My Ember proposal: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386712-ember-rework-a-new-mechanic-and-scalable-power/?view=findpost&p=4265898 (I know it may not be the best, but it is a rework rather than a tweak)

The Progression post died Geninrising :(

 

Edit: Just wanted to commend the OP for wording that so perfectly.

Edited January 31, 2015 by DrBorris

[geninrising]

 

Ty DrBorris. I am just trying to ensure that DE is looking at the big picture here. The reason they have feedback is to find out what needs changes and more often than not it feels as though they simply do not get the overall sentiment from amongst the forum users. There is a reason I have stated that DE needs a dedicated community "digger". Someone to sort through the various topics on a subject in order to create a consensus of the data contained therein and convey it to DE for application.

 

We are not necessarily concerned with damage numbers so often as we are concerned with the viability of a frames powers. Will X power measure up under X number of situations. Additionally there should be much more emphasis on Mechanics over pretty much everything else. Give abilities and frames the capability to carry on much further than balanced content IF a player is skilled enough. What we are truly looking to be able to do is shatter previous accomplishments once we fully acquire the necessary skill set to properly handle each frame. Currently many frames lack the ability to go near as far as many others and that strikes me as wrong and leaning towards a tiered Warframe system, which DE adamantly refuses the existence of.

[MotherofHermes]

I often worry that DE is too far obsessed with "new content"

 

However, I get most excited about this game when they say stuff like: "We are fixing Ember!"

 

Why?

 

Because half of the weapons and frames in this game are mastery fodder that is left in the toybox after 30 levels. When my friend starts playing the game I can hand him a PARIS PRIME at mastery level 2 and then he just needs mods to be a master of death and destruction. 

 

IF DE wants new content all they have to do is give our old broken toys a new sheen of buffs (we will add the coat of paint ourselves of course :3). 

 

imagine prova (the corpus shock stick) got buffed tomorrow. 

 

Great. I now have 5+ hours of gameplay as i use my badass shocky stick and it's awesome machete stance. 

 

you buff ignis. FANTASTIC. watch as i spend 20 plus hours sinking forma into that bad boy and setting the world on fire. 

 

at the same time you give my ember prime a good set of buffs.....

 

I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING FOR THE NEXT MONTH!

 

This is what endgame content is for the veteran player. watching. waiting. for our weapons to be sharpened so we can destroy foes with them. 

 

for new players it's a complex and sometimes annoying game of finding out that the awesome corpus lazer rifle you wanted to use is complete crap. yeah. those dual pistols. you picked the wrong ones, those suck. 

 

now i am okay with weapon tiering. i am okay with not everything being OP. But loadouts and frames decide who we are and sometimes (like when i feel like being a warrior fire chicken) it feels as though I can't be as awesome or cool as others. not as useful. not as good. 

 

and that makes me want to leave. 

 

DE i don't want to leave. For PVE warframe is my favorite. so please. sharpen my weapons for me (the ones i want to use) because you have not given me the proper tools to do so. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

While I agree with almost every point, I would be careful considering the playerbase knowing what's exactly in a good place or not.

 

As you have seen in the Rhino thread: There are people with different beliefs what a good place is. The community can't even agree on what the endgame is.

 

I for my self am curious about what kind of data DE really works with. What they see what people play most, which weapons are most used and so on and how they use this data.

I think they do try to study those things. Otherwise I can't wrap my head arround, why it sometimes takes so long to do some simple fixes that are long overdue.

 

Examples are Hind and Embolist. I believe those weapons are so rarely used, that they are last place on the list.

 

However that leads me to the question why Ember and Nekros took to long.

As they said in the dev stream, 2015 is the year of quality. I'm eager to see some positive changes, because I'm growing tired.

[geninrising]

While I agree with almost every point, I would be careful considering the playerbase knowing what's exactly in a good place or not.

 

As you have seen in the Rhino thread: There are people with different beliefs what a good place is. The community can't even agree on what the endgame is.

 

I for my self am curious about what kind of data DE really works with. What they see what people play most, which weapons are most used and so on and how they use this data.

I think they do try to study those things. Otherwise I can't wrap my head arround, why it sometimes takes so long to do some simple fixes that are long overdue.

 

Examples are Hind and Embolist. I believe those weapons are so rarely used, that they are last place on the list.

 

However that leads me to the question why Ember and Nekros took to long.

As they said in the dev stream, 2015 is the year of quality. I'm eager to see some positive changes, because I'm growing tired.

While I agree that DE should be careful in their application of various changes, I cannot however agree to the way they handle said changes. There are many well thought out discussions regarding balance and exploitation that take place in the many threads that you speak about. It would not be difficult for DE to review said data and come to a consensus of player beliefs contained therein and TRY SOMETHING. Subsequently they review feedback of what they tried and try again.

 

Quite frankly I do not feel that DEScott puts in near as much time with the game as our players do and therefore is remiss in his duties to players. What needs to occur is a constant give and take in all things to achieve a proper point where everyone can be satisfied that the utmost care has been taken in regards to the overall usefulness and viability of EVERYTHING in game. Also if DE wants it's frames to all avoid the stigma of being "lower tier frames" then they need to work with the players that KNOW.

 

Currently I have seen a large preponderance for DE to only take into account the design councils input on various matters and even then limit exactly what the design councils input can even be on various topics, such as the augments thing that Jax mentioned in our Rhino IS thread. Disallowing real choice via locking the specific choices players have for said augments is a sure fire way to only cause more problems than solve. Additionally making augments into worthwhile changes for abilities is a problem as  well. What I am asking for is an end to bandaids from augments and a re-imagining of the abilities themselves that allow them to be functional without reliance on augments. I want augments to be ADDED BONUSES and a way to add new Variables to our playstyles.

[Sev7n]

I wouldnt say the players know what would work best for the game. They may have suggestions that could improve it whether it be content or balancing but there is almost always multiple sides to every suggestion. I think DE does listen and pay attention to the forums and use suggestions and complaints about the game to sway their decisions on what they do with it. But at no point should DE start doing everything the community wants. 

 

DE is already one of the better gaming companies out there that actually make attempts to please the community rather than just milk them for as much money as they can get. Some of the community suggestions we believe need to be fixed asap probably are a lot more complex and difficult to do than we realize which is why they dont get tackled right away. An example of this could be with movement in this game and how sticky it is, a lot of people for a while now have been asking for it to be visited again and provided feedback / suggestions on it but i think its an issue we wont see fixed for a while because of how complex and time consuming it is going to be to fix it.

[CapedBaldy]

Before DE can get any fixes really done, they need a massive overhaul of balance and difficulty in general. Guns can scale up to 30-40x of their intended DPS. Enemies in non-endless missions in ALL FACTIONS can one shot squishy frames. Mismatched visual effects and actual effects (looking at you, Napalms). Energy system and enemies that counter that hurts the players who avoid spamming most. Layers of defense can get trivialized at random, rendering frames that rely on said layer especially squishy. Melee weapons are sometimes sluggish and lack versatility (especially how you swing them and aerial melees not hitting the reticule, god damn it Vor). Enemies that are overly hostile to weapon choices as a whole are present. CC is all over the place (Infested scums having more units that CC than don't). Enemy accuracy is mismatched between hosts and clients. Enemy accuracy is completely bonkers in regards to Grineer. LoS checks are still being wonky. Enemy Scaling and infinite content create so many problems. Progression is still gambling. The game is either too laughably easy or too frustratingly hard (note that it's frustratingly hard, not rewarding hard).

 

Some things could get an immediate fix though. I'm looking at you, Sicarus Prime with your stupid final burst being 2 shots instead of the standard 3 shots UNMODDED and Mag and Frost having 4th abilities that lock them into cast longer than they stun enemies. And DE could at least get some work done on tuning certain Warframes to be a bit more in-line with their original concept and so that some other frames aren't too specialized (especially you, Mag) since damage values can always be tweaked later on. Also, Archwing drop tables for weapons. Seems odd when you want us to play it but gate weapons in such a horrible way that I'll probably never get to it.

 

It's a massive task, but once they really do get that all that fixing done though, I'm certain things will take a turn for the better.

 

Balance 2.0, DE. Do it right and it will be glorious.

Edited February 1, 2015 by CapedBaldy

[Awazx]

Additionally making augments into worthwhile changes for abilities is a problem as  well. What I am asking for is an end to bandaids from augments and a re-imagining of the abilities themselves that allow them to be functional without reliance on augments. I want augments to be ADDED BONUSES and a way to add new Variables to our playstyles.

[geninrising]

Just a shot in the dark to see about getting some more feedback from other players. It is a major concern that many within the player base have in light of various developments in many areas and I feel that this concern should be addressed by the folks at DE.

[SIDESTRE4M]

While I agree that DE should be careful in their application of various changes, I cannot however agree to the way they handle said changes. There are many well thought out discussions regarding balance and exploitation that take place in the many threads that you speak about. It would not be difficult for DE to review said data and come to a consensus of player beliefs contained therein and TRY SOMETHING. Subsequently they review feedback of what they tried and try again.

 

Quite frankly I do not feel that DEScott puts in near as much time with the game as our players do and therefore is remiss in his duties to players. What needs to occur is a constant give and take in all things to achieve a proper point where everyone can be satisfied that the utmost care has been taken in regards to the overall usefulness and viability of EVERYTHING in game. Also if DE wants it's frames to all avoid the stigma of being "lower tier frames" then they need to work with the players that KNOW.

 

Currently I have seen a large preponderance for DE to only take into account the design councils input on various matters and even then limit exactly what the design councils input can even be on various topics, such as the augments thing that Jax mentioned in our Rhino IS thread. Disallowing real choice via locking the specific choices players have for said augments is a sure fire way to only cause more problems than solve. Additionally making augments into worthwhile changes for abilities is a problem as  well. What I am asking for is an end to bandaids from augments and a re-imagining of the abilities themselves that allow them to be functional without reliance on augments. I want augments to be ADDED BONUSES and a way to add new Variables to our playstyles.

 

Personally I think Design Council is overrated. Those people (me included) aren't better than other people. We just bought us in.

The more irritated I got when there was a discussion about what requirements people should meet to get an invite and many respones were so ridiculous in a way that many founders wouldn't meet those requirements themselves.

 

Other than that there are only large topics and I have the feeling that if you are late to the party, what's the point answering on page 40+?  Maybe your post gets read by someone or maybe not. I think they just use Design Council to shrink possible feedback to a size they can work with. That leads me to the questions, what happens to the forum topics?

I really like to know how they work. I have the feeling, the more similar threads created, the better. Or those like my beloved Rhino thread, which might get attention.

 

Scott seems to be a nice person, but to me he seems kinda depressed everytime I see him in devstreams. Doing the balancing is a hard job. You never please anyone and as soon as you are in this position, thousands of people think they know stuff better than you.

 

Then there is the difference what DE feels is right, what people think is right and what would really be right considering logical facts. It's a balancing act.

 

I don't know his schedule. However I have similar feeling as you regarding certain points.

 

Personally I think they should create a task force, solely for balancing weapons, some mods and frames. Just to get the basis right and it would do the game better than a new weapon that gets added now and then. It just adds to the pile that makes it more and more difficult to balance things. I won't even be mad if an update gets delayed because of this.

[ThePresident777]

Yes, pay attention to the players:

NERF IT

BUFF IT

NERF IT

BUFF IT

............

 

Then make a purposeless compromise that doesn't solve any problems at all and pisses everybody off.