Ability Spamming: Is It Really An Issue?

[vaugahn]

I think the problem with the two of you is that he is advocating for a numbers cull and for the most gameplay-reducing ablities to be changed, while you are advocating for all abilities to become worth using and satisfying to use while also saying that it's ok to use the poorly designed abilities as a bandaid in the meantime.  You both basically want the same thing, but are too upset at each other's immediate solutions to agree.

 

For example, when I proposed a Frost revision in another thread you applauded it, and I don't think vaughan would be opposed to it either.

 

Here is that post:

 

Can the two of you agree on something like this as a design paradigm?

 

The problem is that we're both looking for the same thing. We both agree that the ult should not be strictly the most effective ability in a kit, but instead of confronting the problem head-on he'd rather work circles around it, which is not a tenable long-term plan. It will take us to the exact same relative place, but with loads more effort required and any sort of competitive balance against enemies destroyed. 

 

Making abilities satisfying to use and reworking some numbers are also not mutually exclusive, and I find it odd people believe that they are.

 

As for the Frost rework, I don't play him often so I can't really say for sure, but it does sound good. Anything that gets him out of the one-button meta would be appreciated. 

 

Oh, and just an aside for ThePresident777: watch the old CBT trailer, those guys are not devastating a massive army by standing in place pressing a single button. 

[MechaKnight]

Hold up, these ultimates are not poorly designed, they perform exactly how they should, as DE has made them. They are poorly designed in your opinion, but they complete their functions (most of the time). Radial Javelin functions as intended, and it does it's job well (in mid-tier and lower-tier content, damage falls off later on). Molecular Prime functions as intended, every ult functions as intended by design, they are designed as they are. It is their uses that people have disagreements with. Of course the functionality of some of them could be helped along to scale with content, but that's another issue.

 

As DE's By The Numbers: Warframe Powers shows, Radial Javelin is used over 7x more often than is second most used ability, and over 3x more often than all of his other abilities combined. That said, they should not be considered "ultimate" abilities because they are just as dispensable as the rest of our kit for only a small increase in cost. They are simply ability #4. That said, ability #4 hits exponentially more targets through all walls, floors, ceilings, and cover in a 2*pi*r^3 radius for massively better damage and stun than any other ability in the same kit.

 

For Excalibur, Radial Javelin does twice as much damage as Slash Dash while hitting about 30x more targets at a time, and blinds more targets more easily than Radial Blind. The protection he gets from such easy incapacitation removes the need to evade with Super Jump. For Frost's Avalanche, it deals more than four times as much damage as Freeze and more than twice as much damage as Ice Wave, to many more targets without travel time. If it wasn't for the cast time and lack of stun, Frost would be another common problem nuker. Regardless, Avalanche overshadows Freeze and Ice Wave in terms of damage. Ice Wave's augment gives much deserved utility, but should have been built into the kit in the first place.

 

The fact that Radial Javelin falls off isn't enough to justify it is better in damage and stun than Slash Dash and Radial Blind. It actually does both. It should be the case that Slash Dash should be uniquely damaging for being such a limited target ability that requires fine aim, and Radial Blind should exclusively be the room-stunner, not Radial Javelin. The Javelin should have a unique purpose in his kit instead of overshadowing everything else.

 

By comparison, Molecular Prime's only excuse for being so potent is because the rest of Nova's kit for the most part isn't designed to do the most of the work in the kit during gameplay. #1 is personal protection. #2 is a very potent and precise ability for damage. #3 is travel, and #4 does a large combination of slow, damage multiplier, and damage on explosion to potentially cause a chain explosion. Antimatter Drop is the only active attack ability outside of Molecular Prime. MP is proportionately strong to try to cover that, but over-optimization by corrupted mods has made this ability immensely powerful. The attributes could be spread somewhat. Damage multiplier applied to Null Star, ability converted to radius around Nova. It would be fitting for Antimatter Drop to be the main damage ability, and this can be implemented with balance by making it larger, increasing its base damage, and decreasing its multiplier. Molecular Prime can remain as a form of slowdown. Molecular Prime slows enemies by duration and explodes with range. The result is a damage dealer warframe who can get in close and escape with wormhole to deliver a debilitating damage multiplier. She can damage with AMD and set up chain explosions with MP.

 

The issue is generally lack of viable choice in kits. There is no reason to mod towards or use any other ability in the kit when one extremely easy and overly rewarding ability does that. The fact that these abilities reach a massive number of targets through all walls exponentially with range is enough of a perk, but stacking the best numbers for damage and support on top of that is too much--it invalidates the rest of the kit. It's not an ultimate when you can spam it like any other ability. That said, it needs to be in-line with the other three abilities as long as it has no additional restriction in comparison.

 

The other abilities need to matter. More limited abilities with more effort applied to fewer enemy targets should be more rewarding for their use than easier abilities that require no attention. Every ability should have a unique purpose, and it is not recommended for any ability to encroach on the territory of another ability to the point where it is absolutely superior. If these kits remain the same where one ability is vastly superior to all others for every practical scenario, we can never expect variety to thrive. Ignorance should not be more rewarded than knowledge, and laziness should not be more rewarded than effort. If an ability is harder to use and is more limited, make it comparably better to the lazy panic button. Regardless of whether the developers do pure buffing or kit shifting, gameplay with skill and effort should be more rewarding than pressing one button without any focus or concern.

Edited February 13, 2015 by MechaKnight

[ThePresident777]

Let's consider a hypothetical ability called Make-A-Sandwich and replace Excalibur's Super Jump with it.  Why would anyone bother to Make-A-Sandwich when for the price of 4 sandwiches one could make a truck load of shishkebob using Radial Javelin, or with weapons for free?  Why would player's bother to Make-A-Sandwich when the, or one of the, major reason(s) they play Warframe is because they want to make carnage, not sandwiches?  And why wouldn't people play Warframe for the carnage when the core of it is 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Armies?

 

The only time anyone is going to Make-A-Sandwich in Warframe is if it involves stealth missions where Excalibur uses Make-A-Sandwich to divert attention from his terminal hacking.  But, why would anyone play such missions? 

[MechaKnight]

Let's consider a hypothetical ability called Make-A-Sandwich and replace Excalibur's Super Jump with it.  Why would anyone bother to Make-A-Sandwich when for the price of 4 sandwiches one could make a truck load of shishkebob using Radial Javelin, or with weapons for free?  Why would player's bother to Make-A-Sandwich when the, or one of the, major reason(s) they play Warframe is because they want to make carnage, not sandwiches?  And why wouldn't people play Warframe for the carnage when the core of it is 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Armies?

 

The only time anyone is going to Make-A-Sandwich in Warframe is if it involves stealth missions where Excalibur uses Make-A-Sandwich to divert attention from his terminal hacking.  But, why would anyone play such missions? 

 

Let's cut the anecdote and say it as it is. You mean to say that if we didn't have these broken mega abilities that completely overshadow entire kits and remove our participation from gameplay, we would stop playing the game? You mean to tell me that pressing one button without aiming to either kill or stun infinite targets in a massive 2*pi*r^3 radius through walls before we see them is the only reason we came to this game, not the guns or the cool abilities like Super Jump and Slash Dash or the ninja theme? You're dead wrong. The game's trailers and promise is to give us an exciting and varied experience. Yes it's fine to fight an army, but why should all of our power be placed onto one button to deploy one boring ability? That's not exciting and that's not varied. We can have good gameplay and fight lots of stuff without devolving our gameplay to let Homer's Drinking Bird play for us. That's not a game, that's a keyboard key stress test with GPU benchmark.

 

"Why would anyone play such missions?" Why would anyone "play" Warframe as it is? We play for fun and variety, to have an ever changing experience that isn't always the same and makes us glad we were there to enjoy it. Many of us came to play the game for unique moments like the Spy 2.0 game mode. Those of us who are skilled and learned to play to have fun are glad we can enjoy Spy 2.0. Similarly, it's okay if you don't want to learn to play the game as skillfully as we do, it just shouldn't be the case that your ignorance is better than our skill, and your laziness is better than our effort. The more complicated and more limited abilities should have greater purpose and effect than the mindless nuke abilities. Nukes can still be in the game so players can enjoy their easy mode, but they should never be objectively better than abilities that take focus and planning to master.

[Gilmaesh]

warframe should be a balance of gunfire/melee and ability. When one part completly make the other useless, that's a problem.

 

 

3)  some people can't stop themselves from trying to shove their play style down everybody else's throat.  They act as if the entire world is their sandbox and tough luck for those who don't like it.

 

i agree, ability spammer shove their play style down to everybody else's throat as you said. (wink)

And for their own amusement, they make the other 3 squad members useless. Which is a problem in a CO-OP game.

The definition is more 1 tenno devastate massive army while other are watching.

 

And because of them and their fear of balance, everybody got nerfed with nullifier/daily rep/drop rate. So adding the fact they are selfish and lazy players, their gameplay affect everyone.

 

trully, they are toxic for this game.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Gilmaesh

[Moasiac]

warframe should be a balance of gunfire/melee and ability. When one part completly make the other useless, that's a problem.

 

 

i agree, ability spammer shove their play style down to everybody else's throat as you said. (wink)

And for their own amusement, they make the other 3 squad members useless. Which is a problem in a CO-OP game.

The definition is more 1 tenno devastate massive army while other are watching.

 

And because of them and their fear of balance, everybody got nerfed with nullifier/daily rep/drop rate. So adding the fact they are selfish and lazy players, their gameplay affect everyone.

 

trully, they are toxic for this game.

Are you not also trying to shove a different playstyle down everyone else's throats?

Most missions are not based on how slow you go, they are based on efficiency and how fast you can complete the mission or how quickly you can reach the next tier (except Survival). Should other people really be punished because you like going slow?

I think it's quite selfish to believe one playstyle is just plain wrong.

 

It seems those that don't like people who use their abilities heavily, want the playstyle to disappear entirely instead of thinking of a way to reward those who want to use their guns more, or travel at a slower pace.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Moasiac

[VentiGlondi]

Are you not also trying to shove a different playstyle down everyone else's throats?

Most missions are not based on how slow you go, they are based on efficiency and how fast you can complete the mission or how quickly you can reach the next tier (except Survival). Should other people really be punished because you like going slow?

I think it's quite selfish to believe one playstyle is just plain wrong.

 

It seems those that don't like people who use their abilities heavily, want the playstyle to disappear entirely instead of thinking of a way to reward those who want to use their guns more, or travel at a slower pace.

This thread is just going to become a circle of blaming each other for shoving playstyles down each others throat, isn't it?

 

The truth is, ability spammers have been forcing their playstyle for a long while now, while all I can do is use words.

[akira_him]

Hell, we all know why radial javelin have almost 3 times more uses than other abilities: Rep farm

And now it is gone

Sayrn's kit is just outdated and the only variable ability is miasma (arguably molt, as it remove proc, but people don't build towards it because you don't have to, it's always 100% proc removal when cast)

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem is that we're both looking for the same thing. We both agree that the ult should not be strictly the most effective ability in a kit, but instead of confronting the problem head-on he'd rather work circles around it, which is not a tenable long-term plan. It will take us to the exact same relative place, but with loads more effort required and any sort of competitive balance against enemies destroyed. 

 

Making abilities satisfying to use and reworking some numbers are also not mutually exclusive, and I find it odd people believe that they are.

Ah see, but that's the thing. You're viewing these powers as problems, when in all actuality, they are merely tools. In fact, they are objectively good tools because they complete their purpose, and have secondary functions (i.e. CC/Utility) that ensure their relevancy throughout content. The thing you're miffed about is how people use these tools. To you, it may be wrong for them to use them as such, but in all reality, it is just how they play the game. It is just how they use those tools. It is not wrong, from your point of view, it is wrong, but it is simply someone else's play style. Simply because you think it to be wrong does not inherently mean that it is wrong or bad, that is your opinion on it. Yet, we cannot nerf these abilities simply because some people think it subjectively wrong for these powers to have multifaceted capabilities that help them scale throughout content.

 

I am not working circles around anything. I am presenting a better solution to nerfing multifaceted powers. I am saying to increase the mechanical effectiveness of other powers to make the entirety of a WarFrames kit more appealing, rather than have just that one power that actually does scale, have CC/Utility, or a factor that makes it the most widespread useful ability. I am not, however, advocating for the nerfing of these abilities simply because they are objectively good, I am saying to give other powers multifaceted capabilities to keep their relevancy and to ensure their scale ability.

 

We do not end up in the same place, we end up with the whole of a WarFrames kit being useful, rather than just one ability. We also end up in a place where players are able to specialize and be effective not just with that one power, but also specialize in other abilities that fit their play style and enjoy it. We have options to now diversify our play styles, or keep them as we will. We also end up with players having the capability to experiment with new play styles that may be quite enjoyable to them. If they stick with what they know, that's great, if they diversify their play style, that's also great.

 

The whole of it is, we should not be forcing players to play a certain way simply because we do not like how they play, we are all allowed to play as we will. Rather than hurting not just those few who mash one button, but the entirety of the player base, should a nerf to these abilities come about, we assist and grow those other powers we feel lackluster to help us diversify our kits and ensure the usefulness of all our powers, rather than just one.

[AlphaHorseman]

As DE's By The Numbers: Warframe Powers shows, Radial Javelin is used over 7x more often than is second most used ability, and over 3x more often than all of his other abilities combined. That said, they should not be considered "ultimate" abilities because they are just as dispensable as the rest of our kit for only a small increase in cost. They are simply ability #4. That said, ability #4 hits exponentially more targets through all walls, floors, ceilings, and cover in a 2*pi*r^3 radius for massively better damage and stun than any other ability in the same kit.

 

For Excalibur, Radial Javelin does twice as much damage as Slash Dash while hitting about 30x more targets at a time, and blinds more targets more easily than Radial Blind. The protection he gets from such easy incapacitation removes the need to evade with Super Jump. For Frost's Avalanche, it deals more than four times as much damage as Freeze and more than twice as much damage as Ice Wave, to many more targets without travel time. If it wasn't for the cast time and lack of stun, Frost would be another common problem nuker. Regardless, Avalanche overshadows Freeze and Ice Wave in terms of damage. Ice Wave's augment gives much deserved utility, but should have been built into the kit in the first place.

 

The fact that Radial Javelin falls off isn't enough to justify it is better in damage and stun than Slash Dash and Radial Blind. It actually does both. It should be the case that Slash Dash should be uniquely damaging for being such a limited target ability that requires fine aim, and Radial Blind should exclusively be the room-stunner, not Radial Javelin. The Javelin should have a unique purpose in his kit instead of overshadowing everything else.

 

By comparison, Molecular Prime's only excuse for being so potent is because the rest of Nova's kit for the most part isn't designed to do the most of the work in the kit during gameplay. #1 is personal protection. #2 is a very potent and precise ability for damage. #3 is travel, and #4 does a large combination of slow, damage multiplier, and damage on explosion to potentially cause a chain explosion. Antimatter Drop is the only active attack ability outside of Molecular Prime. MP is proportionately strong to try to cover that, but over-optimization by corrupted mods has made this ability immensely powerful. The attributes could be spread somewhat. Damage multiplier applied to Null Star, ability converted to radius around Nova. It would be fitting for Antimatter Drop to be the main damage ability, and this can be implemented with balance by making it larger, increasing its base damage, and decreasing its multiplier. Molecular Prime can remain as a form of slowdown. Molecular Prime slows enemies by duration and explodes with range. The result is a damage dealer warframe who can get in close and escape with wormhole to deliver a debilitating damage multiplier. She can damage with AMD and set up chain explosions with MP.

 

The issue is generally lack of viable choice in kits. There is no reason to mod towards or use any other ability in the kit when one extremely easy and overly rewarding ability does that. The fact that these abilities reach a massive number of targets through all walls exponentially with range is enough of a perk, but stacking the best numbers for damage and support on top of that is too much--it invalidates the rest of the kit. It's not an ultimate when you can spam it like any other ability. That said, it needs to be in-line with the other three abilities as long as it has no additional restriction in comparison.

 

The other abilities need to matter. More limited abilities with more effort applied to fewer enemy targets should be more rewarding for their use than easier abilities that require no attention. Every ability should have a unique purpose, and it is not recommended for any ability to encroach on the territory of another ability to the point where it is absolutely superior. If these kits remain the same where one ability is vastly superior to all others for every practical scenario, we can never expect variety to thrive. Ignorance should not be more rewarded than knowledge, and laziness should not be more rewarded than effort. If an ability is harder to use and is more limited, make it comparably better to the lazy panic button. Regardless of whether the developers do pure buffing or kit shifting, gameplay with skill and effort should be more rewarding than pressing one button without any focus or concern.

Oh no, it is still an ultimate ability, that's the ultimate ability of his kit. Just because people use it a lot Mecha, does not mean it is bad, it means the ability works. Subjectively you may think it is bad, but objectively, the ability completes its function, and it completes it well. Also realize that there is no exponentially more targets in any of it. Whatever number of enemies are in the effective area are the ones that are going to be hit, the enemies don't exponentially multiply simply because a player uses their ultimate ability. You do realize that this is his big finale ability, right? Of course it's going to do better than the other three abilities for whatever function(s) it is to complete, it is his ultimate ability, it is supposed to be the crown jewel of the kit. And it is, which isn't bad, because by definition of being an ultimate it does that pretty well when compared to the rest of his abilities.

 

Is it not sinking into your head that they are the ultimate abilities within both frames respective kits? They are supposed to be the biggest hurrah, the nice shiny finish, the great shazam in the box, that is literally why they are called ultimates and also cost the most. It makes no sense that your 1st ability, the one that costs the least energy, is your strongest damage dealer or the ability with the best multifaceted functions, when compared to your 4th ability, which costs the most for you to cast. Now, BEFORE anyone jumps in with the efficiency argument, realize that all power costs are affected the same by efficiency, so this argument still holds true. And you can't say how many more targets are hit, for all intents and purposes these enemies could be in a hallway running towards a player, and oh look at that, Slash Dash could hit the exact same amount of targets as your Radial Javelin did. Of course, Radial Javelin does more damage, but that's why it's called the ultimate, not his first available ability. Yeah, Ice Wave Augment should've been built in, miffs me that it didn't but they could've just added in Knock Back and that would've been better, still hoping they do.

 

Ugh, it is the ultimate in his kit, it is...just read the paragraph before this one for the rest of it. I agree that Radial Blind and Slash Dash need some love, but that does not mean that Radial Javelin needs a nerf. It's damage is very average when compared to other ultimates, without cc/scale ability, the ability becomes non-scale able and is pretty much left in the dust when used in higher content. What you're suggesting is pretty much reverting him back to the old "Radial Blind slave" as you wrote in the other thread, because now that Radial Javelin and Slash Dash do not scale, players will just build him back towards Radial Blind. The better solution is to move the Blind back to Radial Blind (since it fits the theme of the ability), remove the enemy collision from Slash Dash and give it a guaranteed bleed proc on targets, and make the Javelins fired throw enemies away from the casting Excalibur and be pinned to the surfaces they impact (for a duration). Thus, all his powers have scale ability, all of them have multifunctionality, and the entirety of the kit is scale able throughout content.

 

Oh there is no "over-customization by corrupted mods" when it comes to abilities, especially to MP, in your opinion that is over-customizing (which I don't even think is possible), but in all actuality it is how the players have decided to mod. Is it wrong? Nope, because that's their play style. Her abilities are objectively fine as they are now. (Well, Null Star could use some love, maybe a stun to enemies it hits), but all of them have functionality. Subjectively you want these to be changed, but that is simply because you want them to better fit how you think they should be. This is maybe the hundredth time I've told you this, but forcing players out of their play styles simply because theirs differs from yours is not a good solution. That is effectively what you are doing with that. I must yet again say that you do not chop down good abilities for being objectively good abilities, you make the other abilities ALSO objectively good abilities.

 

Oh no kiddo, they are ultimates. You fail to realize that not everyone mods for efficiency. MP is dependent on three variables, duration, range, and power strength. Messing with one (as the corrupted mods always do) hinders the effectiveness of the ability. They are ultimates, you just don't like how they are, and that is no good reason to change the game simply because you do not like that they function, and they function objectively well. In your opinion it is too much, when that is not any grounds to change half of the games tools to suit your opinion through nerfing them.

 

Oh I agree that the other abilities need to matter. If you want the other abilities to matter, you buff them up, not as their ultimates as the standard, but by giving them multifaceted functions that ensure their scale ability through CC/Utility, that allow them to fulfill their roles far better than they could with simply damage, and to ensure the uniqueness of the powers entices players to diversify or specialize when they wish.

[RealPandemonium]

some people think it subjectively wrong for these powers to have multifaceted capabilities that help them scale throughout content.

He's not upset about abilities having multiple properties; he's upset that there are abilities that kill everything on the map with impunity or cause you to effectively ignore gameplay indefinitely through preventing aggro, damage, etc.  The abilities that he is opposed to are the ones that do one thing too well, not the ones that contribute multiple benefits.

[AlphaHorseman]

He's not upset about abilities having multiple properties; he's upset that there are abilities that kill everything on the map with impunity or cause you to effectively ignore gameplay indefinitely through preventing aggro, damage, etc.  The abilities that he is opposed to are the ones that do one thing too well, not the ones that contribute multiple benefits.

If you're gonna quote me, quote me right, not one part of it.

 

No ability objectively does things too well, if they complete their task, they've done the job. And Mr. President7777 has got a point there with the killing things part.

[RealPandemonium]

If you're gonna quote me, quote me right, not one part of it.

 

No ability objectively does things too well, if they complete their task, they've done the job. And Mr. President7777 has got a point there with the killing things part.

I was responding to that one sentence, so I only quoted that sentence.  

 

That being said, would it be ok if the next warframe's 4 did 50k damage in a 100m radius?  I think that would get the job done pretty well.

[MechaKnight]

He's not upset about abilities having multiple properties; he's upset that there are abilities that kill everything on the map with impunity or cause you to effectively ignore gameplay indefinitely through preventing aggro, damage, etc.  The abilities that he is opposed to are the ones that do one thing too well, not the ones that contribute multiple benefits.

That's one facet of it. Another is how insanely mindless these abilities are. There's no aim, no consideration, no constriction. We hit all targets through walls regardless of whether or not we laid eyes on them. The abilities reach behind us and we're not even looking in that direction. We don't even have to aim at them. The cast times for these abilities are insanely quick compared to much smaller and less effective radials in other games.

 

These abilities would be somewhat more respectable if they were cone +line-of-sight like more capably designed game balance. At least then the abilities would require a smidgeon of focus. Now if we expect single target abilities to be decently comparable without any rebalancing, they'd have to either become cones or get their damage boosted compared to the radial nuke in their kit. Something similar to 30 enemies hit by Radial Javelin for 1000 damage compared to 2 enemies hit with Slash Dash for 500 damage. That's 30k compared to 1k. Let's make Slash Dash do 15k damage per hit to reward the effort involved and lack of stun.

 

Buffing without spreading things around will lead to crazy numbers later. There are games out there that fail so bad at balancing by not stopping the problem in its tracks, damage numbers increase from thousands to millions. Nobody is even sure what is good damage anymore because everything ranges from 2 million damage to 140 million damage. Then the devs have to divide every damage number by factors of 10 because the variables in the code don't contain enough bits to hold the info, and everyone loses their minds because the numbers dropped, even though the game's obstacles were balanced down too.

 

Buffing everything all the time is nice, but it's a fantasy. I would adapt as a player and use these broken tools to further my progress, but it's not healthy to the game at all and nothing to be proud about. It will only lead to problems further down the line.

Edited February 14, 2015 by MechaKnight

[GhostMelody]

I don't think this is an issue. If it falls to that then it's your fault for feeling like that maybe

Abities are there to be USED, and as it was intended with all the mod variety you can build to spam or not, especially for "caster" frames this shouldn't be change imo.

As warframe is now, it is still a games going through changes there will be many more rebalancing and even if we don't like it, abilities will be tweaked with.

That being said, yea, we get it. Most warframes were not built to have the user spam the abilities but when you get to a very difficult part of the game (especially because of all the decisions that it gives you) you might want to take the easy way out, thus spamming

But I can assure you in many,many game people will almost always take the easy way out via: what's the best way to get pass this difficult obstacle?

Also I don't like calling something that you do over and over spam and just to be silly and talk about games as a whole (mainly mmo's i guess)

Other games where you are forced or (i guess,) the option to do something repeatedly to get past a certain point do you find it too problematic even though it's an option; probably not. You might kite over and over, maybe even "spam" that roll button, chuck a few grenades, but when you actually get past that difficult curb that was in your way do you neccesarily feel bad about it? I think not, when you manage to get past something and keep managing to do so because it is easier you are happier because you can now beat whatever was previously bothering you. And whatever method you had to resort to, build or method, it's the one you probably will want to use to continue being successful, if not, find a different way, but don't try changing it for people who had no problem with it and who felt that it was helpful, that's just ruining thier fun.

And yea something's might need buffs but I really think buffs should come AFTER rebalancing

Edited February 15, 2015 by GhostMelody

[MechaKnight]

At the very least, there needs to be a balance within kits as to making more difficult and limited options worthwhile. Mirage is nice because even though Prism mods oppositely in corrupt mods to HoM and Eclipse, it makes sense to choose the HoM and Eclipse combo instead by preference. The developers are rewarding the manual labor of gunfire to be decently comparable to using a rapid-target radial ability.

 

By comparison, Excalibur and Saryn really do badly in their kit validity. Building exclusively to their nuke is vastly superior to modding them any other way. Players who attempt to use their gameplay skill to use the fine aim of Slash Dash and Venom only feel defeated when the easy nuke option is better than the manual aim and effort option.

 

Edit: I caught some typos.

Edited February 15, 2015 by MechaKnight

[GhostMelody]

At the very least, there needs to be a balance within kits as to making more difficult and limited options worthwhile. Mirage is nice because even though Prism mods oppositely in corrupt mods to HoM and Eclipse, it makes sense to choose the HoM and Eclipse combo instead. The developers are rewarding the manual labor of gunfire to be decently comparable to using a rapid-target radial ability.

By comparison, Excalibur and Saryn really do badly in their kit validity. Building exclusively to their nuke is vastly superior to modding them any other way. Players who attempt to use their gameplay skill to use the fine aim of Slash Dash and Venom only feel defeated when the easy nuke option is harder than the manual aim and effort option.

I don't think building frames towards their nuke is more beneficial that is according to who plays them, also in warframe, utility definitely trumps damage in many occasions, but I agree with everything else

[Ershk]

I don't see an issue, its just a way some people want to play the game 

 

My issue however is... its hard to say, i've been playing melee only and i've been noticing that the game tends to be more punishing now more than ever before if one isn't built for efficiency and heavy ability use and or if one isn't using really good guns

 

it feels as though the game is evolving to only be played for ability spam and the "OP" gun builds, even now with syndicate weapons and weapon augments you have guns with AOE abilities built in and even among those only a select few are considered for any type of "serious" play (ahem synoid gammacor, vaykor marelok, ahem) 

 

but honestly im just a kogake hydroid with stamina and effective health mods (no efficiency at all, the horror) trying to fight off level 20-30+ grineer to farm R5's, feeling like im beating my head against a wall at just 5 to 10 minutes but kinda still having fun... so what would I know

[SIDESTRE4M]

You guys don't get it... please hear me out!

 

Warframe's energy system before was created arround 150 energy max (depending on the frame). This allows one ultimate and maybe two first abilities. One blue orb still got 25 energy.

 

With Flow you could get to 300 and in some cases to 450 energy. With Streamline you could lower the cost for an ultimate to 70 energy.

 

So...

 

And this is the situation we have now: With fleeting expertise and Streamline an ultimate costs as much as a first skill back then. That leads to ONE question: Why use the first abilities anymore if they don't offer anything special?

 

And that is the problem, because all warframes, even the newer ones are created with the old system in mind I believe. So the viability measurement of a frame goes completely nuts, because the power ratio effect/energy is out of the window.

If we wanted to build it for efficiency, we don't need to mind casting all abilities as we like without looking at our energy pool.

 

Mind you, there are frames with interesting and good first abilities. Valkyr, Volt, Mirage and so on. Abilities that compliment gameplay in other ways than of just instantly wiping the floor with some enemies.

 

There are frames that offer a different way with their second and third abilities as well.

 

So as the game is now, we need a complete overhaul. The old 25/50/75/100 steps have gotten obsolete in my opinion.

I'm not against an ultimate to have a great effect and maybe even the power to nuke a room, but it should (my opinion) not be able to be brought down to the castability of a first ability.

 

Ok, you guys can still tell me, it's how people want to play and let them if they want, but you ignore the health of the game. The signs are topics about boredom, challenges, variety... and now ask yourself the question why that is?

 

Now think about it: What would a nullifier for example mean for us, when introduced back then without fleeting expertise? I tell you, it wouldn't have that great of an impact "ability"-wise. Most people complaining about them don't know anymore how to deal with stuff, that doesn't vanish after pressing a button.

Edited February 15, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Moasiac]

Now think about it: What would a nullifier for example mean for us, when introduced back then without fleeting expertise? I tell you, it wouldn't have that great of an impact "ability"-wise. Most people complaining about them don't know anymore how to deal with stuff, that doesn't vanish after pressing a button.

Nullifiers would be even worse. They completely negate any ability you have active and shield not only bullets, but powers as well. You'd be hurting even more if you stepped into a nullifier's bubble or your ability didn't hit him and the 20 other guys in his bubble. I can only imagine spending 100+ energy just for the ability to whiff because a nullifier showed up.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Moasiac

[SIDESTRE4M]

You rely less on power anyways. I imagine their impact would be less worse, but I'm playing mostly Volt anyways... so I'm not running arround pressing 4 anyways.

 

By the way that's not the point I want to discuss. xD

Edited February 15, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[MechaKnight]

Nullifiers are a very strange way to attempt to block radial spam. They punish guns, melee, and single target abilities more than radials. Radials work to solve nullifiers by killing or stunning everything around the nullifier.

 

It's true, efficiency is a major factor in making the kit useless because ability #4 is way too easy to use compared to its effect. We may as well stop calling it an "ultimate." You use those abilities once when the danger is extremely high. We're spamming them as our only ability sometimes. That's not an ultimate, that's a normal ability, and should be treated as such.

 

Radial nukes are the biggest offenders because you hit everything in a 2*pi*r^3 sphere with damage and stun simultaneously through all walls without even looking at or seeing any of the enemies. The fact that it mindlessly hits that many targets already makes the ability powerful. It shouldn't have the best numbers for damage and stun as well.

 

Regardless of the approach to how, I know more difficult single target abilities are worse than easy mode nukes, and that's backwards. Valkyr struggles to get any damage done if there's a single nuker. Slash Dash requires aim and planning on where you'll travel, what you'll hit, if you have enough room for the distance, and if you have cover to hide behind after the dash. All that effort and all you do is hit a couple of enemies for weak damage. Yet Radial Javelin hits a whole room with superior damage and stun and you don't even need to look in their direction.

 

It would be fitting for such difficult abilities to reflect the value of their challenge. In most balanced games, radial passive abilities that do everything for you are comparatively weak because hitting multiple targets multiplies the effect. The idea is you only use the radial when you're panicking, because the rest of your kit is capable enough to deal the main source of damage and utility in a fun way.

 

Our whole system is backwards. Excalibur and Saryn have little to no reason to use anything outside of their radial damage + stun nuke, and Valkyr has to use all of her abilities yet winds up falling short because she only attacks one target at a time. Even if she's smart enough to bring a good melee weapon, nukers win because they hit everything, not just one enemy. Valkyr also has a lot of walking to do, and Hysteria has no coptering. Nukers can often stand still because of their radius, but if they choose to move they kill the entire room effortlessly without caring about what's happening in the room.

 

Some changes should happen. First, more difficult abilities should be more capable. The more difficult an ability is, the more features and higher numbers deserve to fit onto it with a smaller amount of energy. The easier an ability is to hit  lot of targets, the more it is weighed in its features compared to its energy. The fact that you hit so many targets is the bonus. You don't need the best numbers per target if you're multiplying the total damage by the total number of targets hit. If the radial ability applies X damage to an average of Y targets, multiple X*Y and place that damage on a harder to use ability. Then buff the effects further for how limited and difficult the ability is. Then divide by energy cost.

 

Nullifiers were a ham-fisted way to combat radials that didn't work--they punished everything but radials. The developers might as well stop ignoring the problem and just retune kits so the radial isn't the best ability in the kit compared to other abilities. This can be a buff. Just buff the other abilities appropriately.

[ThePresident777]

What's not being gotten here is that no matter how derogatory it is described, a majority of Warframe players enjoy "ability spam" and "press 4 to win". It satisfies their reason, their purpose, for playing Warframe. It is entertaining to them no matter what others think or feel about it. That satisfaction is a success story, not a failure as some would have it. There is zero justification, zero purpose, to removing "ability spam" or "press 4 to win" in a game where a majority enjoy it, except to induce failure.

Edited February 15, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

a majority of Warframe players enjoy "ability spam" and "press 4 to win". 

 

Do you have any proof to that effect? Because if we were just going by the forums the exact opposite could be said.

[SIDESTRE4M]

What's not being gotten here is that no matter how derogatory it is described, a majority of Warframe players enjoy "ability spam" and "press 4 to win". It satisfies their reason, their purpose, for playing Warframe. It is entertaining to them no matter what others think or feel about it. That satisfaction is a success story, not a failure as some would have it. There is zero justification, zero purpose, to removing "ability spam" or "press 4 to win" in a game where a majority enjoy it, except to induce failure.

 

Until they are bored and quit the game instead of long-term playing motivation. Since it doesn't seem that the numbers of players decrease, you may be right though.