Actually Impossible To Pay For Mod Upgrading/ducat Items. Deep Explanation Within. Please Support.

[Rinaker]

I don't see why everyone's so upset. It's all quite silly if you ask me. DE is now a revenue generator for Sumpo. Sumpo expects profit increases each quarter, just like every other company on the planet. How do you think they plan to increase earnings when their primary revenue stream is from people paying to skip the grind? Gee whiz, I bet they'll decrease the grind so less people will buy Platinum. Seriously, guys?

[NocturneOfSolace]

I don't see why everyone's so upset. It's all quite silly if you ask me. DE is now a revenue generator for Sumpo. Sumpo expects profit increases each quarter, just like every other company on the planet. How do you think they plan to increase earnings when their primary revenue stream is from people paying to skip the grind? Gee whiz, I bet they'll decrease the grind so less people will buy Platinum. Seriously, guys?

It's like you didn't read anything the OP said

It's also like you clearly don't underestimate economics

He's already shown off the mathematics of what it'd be like to just spend money and money to get the same results, and guess what?

The costs are so exorbitant that it would DRIVE PLAYERS AWAY CAUSING A LOSS OF PROFIT

Furthermore let me explain something to you

Companies being 'for profit' is not inherently negative nor does it mean they have to pull the same kind of bullS#&$ EA pulls, which is in fact negative and hurts profits, being greedy and making your customers feel like you're milking them for every penny is more likely to make them stop buying your product, thus loss of profit

Take a look at Valve, extremely customer friendly company that regularly hosts huge sales, and yet they're one of the biggest powerhouses in the video game industry, extremely financially stable, and making huge profits.

That's the whole point of capitalism, companies that treat their customers like S#&$, and have S#&$ty business practices, lose money, and tend to go out of business

But enough, or we risk derailing the thread, DE aren't a bunch of jerks and they're not going to increase grind more and more just to make people feel like they need to buy more plat, especially when they've stated that's not what they want to do.

@Qynchou

...

 

Edited February 24, 2015 by NocturneOfSolace

[Loswaith]

But you see, you also have 12-14 days to obtain 1,100 Ducats, meaning on average, you would need to get between 79 to 92 Ducats per day (rounded to the nearest and highest integer due to Ducat units using integers). That would mean if one is rather unlucky and obtains 10 Ducat Prime parts every time, 8 to 10 Keys (non-Endless) are needed to be run (Sabotage cuts this down by roughly a half), or 2 to 3 Keys (Endless, up to Wave 30/35/40). 

 

And they take around an hour or two, in which they can also be compressed into a weekend, if you so choose (in which I do that as well). 

While it can take an hour or two per day for the keys, then you have to get parts.  You can also do a 20 min survival and get no prime parts you can also get all caches in a sabotage and get no prime parts as well.

 

Sure you can get 2-3 keys from 30-40 min endless, but keep in mind thats about 10mins per key, leaving you only 5 mins to get each prime part for the average by my calculations.

As you can see the 15 mins per part is including the time to farm a key is actualy being quite conservative.  Thus I see that as about a good level to which it can be considered a reasonable minimum time frame.

 

Some players may have the 25 hours in the 12-14 days (an average of about 2 hours a day), some may not.  I make no call on those values or whether it is enough or not enough time for that (players and their time varies alot).  All I want players/DE to realise is a conservative value as to the time needed for such things.

[Rinaker]

It's like you didn't read anything the OP said

It's also like you clearly don't underestimate economics

He's already shown off the mathematics of what it'd be like to just spend money and money to get the same results, and guess what?

The costs are so exorbitant that it would DRIVE PLAYERS AWAY CAUSING A LOSS OF PROFIT

Furthermore let me explain something to you

Companies being 'for profit' is not inherently negative nor does it mean they have to pull the same kind of bullS#&$ EA pulls, which is in fact negative and hurts profits, being greedy and making your customers feel like you're milking them for every penny is more likely to make them stop buying your product, thus loss of profit

Take a look at Valve, extremely customer friendly company that regularly hosts huge sales, and yet they're one of the biggest powerhouses in the video game industry, extremely financially stable, and making huge profits.

That's the whole point of capitalism, companies that treat their customers like S#&$, and have S#&$ty business practices, lose money, and tend to go out of business

But enough, or we risk derailing the thread, DE aren't a bunch of jerks and they're not going to increase grind more and more just to make people feel like they need to buy more plat, especially when they've stated that's not what they want to do.

 

 

Are you aware of how free-to-play works, especially with games like Warframe? There is no amazing campaign, in-depth story, competitive multiplayer, area variety, or substantial content. There is grind/repetition/time sinks, and lots of them. You have the option of either playing for unreasonable amounts of time, repeating the same dull, minimal "content" over and over, or you can shell out some money and feel like a big boy when you see that golden doohickey in your inventory without having to treat the game like a job. What I'm seeing here is that people who were perfectly fine with pay-to-win as long as their allowances and parent's credit cards were holding out are now complaining because Digital Extremes has monetized the game to the point where they can no longer afford to buy all the shiny new toys that come out. Am I supposed to feel sorry for these people? Is that the point of this topic? Oh, and I guess drop rates and grinding methods constantly being nerfed by as much as 50% while "new content" is just more nonsense to grind/pay for is totally separate from the game's revenue model. I have absolutely no idea why they'd want to make longer and worse grinds for things that you could just plunk some money down for in their cash shop. Not at all.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Rinaker

[NocturneOfSolace]

Since it's clear you didn't read anything I said, or at least didn't comprehend, I don't see a point in responding

[Rinaker]

Since it's clear you didn't read anything I said, or at least didn't comprehend, I don't see a point in responding

 

That's nice. Maybe next time you can do a bit of research and find out that increasingly pay-to-win models actually keep player numbers stable while greatly enhancing revenue. People are still going to bend over, they're just going to do so with a lot less in their wallet afterward.

[NocturneOfSolace]

Maybe you can, you literally have no idea what you're talking about, stating things that go against proven, researched fact

[Rinaker]

Maybe you can, you literally have no idea what you're talking about, stating things that go against proven, researched fact

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

 

People wanted more pay-to-win. They wanted to buy the best weapons and advantage items, like straight-up stat boosts. They got what they wanted, and here's the before/after split charts:

 

 

Warframe is in a similar situation. According to Steam Charts(http://steamcharts.com/app/230410), player numbers have landed at a steady plateau. Short of a media blitz marketing campaign running in the hundreds of millions of dollars, player numbers will stay the same for the foreseeable future. Over the past few months, Digital Extremes "enhanced monetization" in the form of greater gaps between grinding and paying has proven to be remarkably effective in retaining players. This bodes well for their future efforts on this front. Like I said, you and everyone else complaining have only yourselves to blame for not wanting to commit fully to this game. You knew damn well what you signed up for when you downloaded a pay-to-win game, and now it's apparently the developer's fault for not making sure their revenue model, which is working very nicely for them and a huge majority of paying members, doesn't care what your parent's credit card limits are.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Rinaker

[Thelonious]

@OP: use your duplicates, they're worth a lot of fusion points.

And also: you ranked up Primed Fast Hands oO

What a waste

 

On topic: As I'm sure a lot of ppl has already said, I believe Primed Mods are DE's way to [deal with/reward] vets who had piled up tons and tons of unused cores, parts and credits over the years.

 

No more, no less.

 

They're not supposed to be farmed on a bi-weekly basis. Cause as you said, it's a stupid amount of farm for anyone that hasn't played the game consistently over the years.

 

Nonetheless, even if you can get them, it doesn't mean you should max them. 

Even If I could max them all to 10 as soon as they're released, I wouldn't be stupid enough to bankrupt myself for it.

 

Rest assured there are a limited amount of them, so once they're all out, it's only a matter of patience and dedication for newer players.

[Stratego89]

I'm fairly sure that I've posted here before but it seems to have gotten an update since then. What I get from this in a TL;DR version is the OP wants to be able to use real life money to buy anything in the game without having to work for it at all (if PvP actually mattered or there was real competition one could say they want it to be Pay 2 Win). I vote no. Yes, my reasoning is because not everyone has the money to buy everything they want and seeing other be able to would make me a bit jealous, since I have to work my butt off to get the same stuff. Is there something wrong with that? I guess that's for you to decide. Point is, I like the game how it is. Letting people buy everything they want would surely get DE some money and bring in new players, but they aren't exactly the kind of players I'd like to see flood the community.

[Rinaker]

I'm fairly sure that I've posted here before but it seems to have gotten an update since then. What I get from this in a TL;DR version is the OP wants to be able to use real life money to buy anything in the game without having to work for it at all (if PvP actually mattered or there was real competition one could say they want it to be Pay 2 Win). I vote no. Yes, my reasoning is because not everyone has the money to buy everything they want and seeing other be able to would make me a bit jealous, since I have to work my butt off to get the same stuff. Is there something wrong with that? I guess that's for you to decide. Point is, I like the game how it is. Letting people buy everything they want would surely get DE some money and bring in new players, but they aren't exactly the kind of players I'd like to see flood the community.

 

People can already buy everything, so I don't see the point of this post.

[Renegade343]

Actually, if one is rather unlucky one would walk away with 'prizes' other than prime parts.

Provided that there is a ton of Keys lying around to be rewarded to players so that they could play Void missions, the chances of having every Void mission that the player has run rewarding no Prime parts is close to nil. 

 

And provided that Void Keys can be obtained rather easily as well (and sometimes quickly too), means more hits at Prime parts for a given period of time

[Me.Greedy]

i approve this wall of text. i'm starting to feel overwhelmed aswell, and i have about 1800 hours. Ducats especially are kiling me since i'd much rather be spending my time in the star map than the void.

 

and now that oriken cells are showing up all over the @(*()$ place in Defense i can't even rely on it to get parts.

 

F*** it seems to be the only option.

[Stratego89]

People can already buy everything, so I don't see the point of this post.

They cannot. They can indirectly get most stuff with plat, but not directly. Prime parts require either grinding, or trading, which is MR locked to MR 2. Many weapons are MR locked up to MR 6. Ranking up requires effort and leveling many different weapons and frames. To get a better gun, you need better mods. Sure you can buy those mods, leveled even, but this once again requires access to trading which is once again MR locked, and you can only trade for so much each day. You cannot buy or trade for syndicate syandanas, so if you want them you have to work HARD for them. If you want to make your weapons strong with mods, you will probably have to forma your weapon, which requires re-leveling. Though these things might be small, they mean that even a person who has all the money in the world can't just come in and have the best gear the game can offer straight away. They are forced to understand the game's mechanics to at least a reasonable extent.

 

P.s. Another good example is event weapons/badges/etc, that you have to participate and work for to get.

[SnakeWildlife]

@OP: use your duplicates, they're worth a lot of fusion points.

And also: you ranked up Primed Fast Hands oO

What a waste

 

 

I have been using duplicates aswell.

How's it a waste? You ever put a Primed Fast Hands on Vectis?  I urge you to try it, you'll find the results most overpowered *wink*

 

What I get from this in a TL;DR version is the OP wants to be able to use real life money to buy anything in the game without having to work for it at all

 

No i dont want to buy my way to success (im a very hard working warframe addict), there are however Whale players who DO like to buy everything, that are now being told that even spending over $2000 per 2 weeks, they still cannot get everything because of the expensive Ducat costs.

 

The reason i brought this to DE's attention is because 'Whales' in many games, shell out more money than 1000 players combined over their stay in the game, and the Ducat system pushes them out towards the exit door.  It would be a terrible loss to DE's revenue if Whale players, were forced out of the game.

 

Me personally i only buy Prime packs to get the exclusive objects (which im glad i did because Misa Prime, and Prime Titan/Distilling Extractors are pimp!). And i always take advantage of a 50/75% off Voucher.  I spend my platinum mostly on Reactors, Catalysts, Formas, and Customization.

 

People can already buy everything, so I don't see the point of this post.

 

Because they cant buy everything. Unless, you're a Whale gamer who keeps up to date with the Ducat requirements and spends over $2000 per 2 weeks....and how many people fit this description?

 

I mean, if you're one of those types of player...mind slippin me a few gifts? *puppy eyes* Pleeeeeeaaaaase?

I'll gladly pay you tuesday for a fusion core today.

 

 

Anyway regardless of saving the Whales, we need to save EVERYONE from these spiraling outrageous costs.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SnakeWildlife

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I gave up on ducat purchases once I got my Prisma Gorgon. I don't run void missions the way I used to, and grinding for the necessary parts to get the latest and greatest is just painful for me now.

 

DE, players are burning out because you can't put the freaking grind away.

[Stratego89]

The reason i brought this to DE's attention is because 'Whales' in many games, shell out more money than 1000 players combined over their stay in the game, and the Ducat system pushes them out towards the exit door.  It would be a terrible loss to DE's revenue if Whale players, were forced out of the game.

Being a "whale" as you call them is their own choice. DE isn't forcing them to spend thousands of dollars to get all the new stuff, they themselves are. "Whales" might shell out more money than 1000 players combined in some games, but those games probably do not have a trade system that include the paid currency, which allows players with lots of money but don't want to buy EVERYTHING to spend more money than they usually would, and work their skills getting good deals, making up for the players that cannot buy that currency in the first place. Also, have you considered that maybe DE doesn't care as much about having a few individuals spend thousands of dollars than having hundreds of players that actively play and enjoy the game, most likely contributing to it in some way (youtube videos or telling friends = free advertisement) and likely spend tens of dollars on it themselves? They do have those 50%-75% off coupons you mentioned after all, they don't have to do that and they're not exactly so rare that you can't wait a week or two to get one.

 

I understand the points you are making, but frankly DE doesn't seem like the kind of company that would care what a small minority of players who want to buy their way into everything, rather than making the game enjoyable and replayable for the vast majority of their large playerbase.

[SnakeWildlife]

No offense Stratego, but i dont think you understand how business works. Especially within the free-to-play model.

 

The whole point is to draw in large investors (or more small investors) and earn more revenue to please your shareholders and boost profitability whilst keeping the playerbase happy to continue spending. You need to take decisions which will increase your profit margin, not reduce it.

 

Creating this kind of Gate (ducats), will only harm and damage this prospect.

 

To say DE shouldn't or doesn't care about big spenders or people who want to buy their gear with cash, is completely anti-Warframe.

 

Symbolically : If you dont eat food, you'll starve :P

Edited February 24, 2015 by SnakeWildlife

[Liminal]

Also:

1100 ducats in 12 days isn't hard.

Thats 100 ducats a day.

Between 2 to 10 prime parts a day.  And if you have T3 or T4 capture its only an average of 5, which generally doesn't take much more than 7 runs.  A capture mission can be finished, with loading times, in about 3 to 5 minutes.  So that is 21 to 35 minutes per day in T3C missions.

What if I don't want to rush? What if I want to -you know- play the game instead of farming? Doing only Voids gets old fast.

 

Ducat hunting is hurting the game by encouraging everything the devs said they didn't want players to be doing.

[Anaknank]

Ok, i didn't read the whole thread, but i'm just gonna throw some numbers here based on what i read on wiki:

 

- R5 cores gives 62 energy

- 50% of their energy goes to the mod

- Legendary mods needs 16368 energy from rank 0 to 10

- Fusing a R5 core cost 3,150 creds each

- Trading a R5 core cost 8,00 creds each

 

So, if someone got a rank 0 legendary core and wants to buy R5 enough to make it rank 10, the numbers are:

 

- 528 R5 cores

- 1,663 M cred on fusion

- 4,224 M cred on trade

 

If we agree that there are enough R5 available on market, and they cost 5 for 4p, you're gonna need 423p.

 

Therefore, i'd rather do 10-extra hours on my job and use my earned money to buy platinum, so i could just buy a maxed legendary mod for 1000-1100p.

 

 

There is another number that doesn't appear on this math: time spent farming.

 

I feel like the best way to spend you time playing Warframe is not actually playing it. 

Edited February 24, 2015 by Anaknank

[SoyMalone]

At the end of the day I think DE have to do a fragile balancing act.

We know that broadly speaking there are three types of players

- Those that don't buy plat.

- Those that buy platinum when they really want something/when it is discounted sufficiently

- Those who see something they want and don't hesitate to spend Plat

 

Very broad descriptions with many shades between them, but good enough.

The problem now comes when you try and quantify how many people fall into each group.

The fact is we don't have that data.

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410 was a previously provided link that is useful to a degree from which we can infer that Warframe is doing well and has relatively consistent growth (summer high and December+ to January - typical fluctuations notwithstanding.)

 

I understand the worry that the game could lose people who spend lots of plat as a result of Ducat items being relatively inaccessible via plat, but without actual data to quantify there is no way to determine whether or not this is actually happening. Any discussion regarding this is purely theoretical at best.

 

There have been posts regarding how hard it is to accrue the currency between each appearance of the Trader and I agree that the prices aren't unreasonable. If you can't manage with them I'm sure that they seem much less fair.

 

I play (on average) 2hrs weekdays and up to 5 on weekends and I manage just fine. Someone has said that is the soft end of hardcore gaming (which I disagree with) but then how many hours per day/week do you spend playing?

 

If I am having a good week it has taken me 4 days to get enough parts to sell for Ducats (the 1100 average all his stuff comes to) and the credit bonuses from voids and a bit of Sechura/Siemeni (Mesa - efficiency+strength Peacemaker build = 19k in 5 min)

 

I use keyshares and recruiting to good effect, nothing that a player without a supportive clan can't do.

This is interspersed with helping clan mates and levelling mastery fodder. 

Not impossible by a long shot.

 

Others want to have everything levelled right away or before new stuff comes out.

My question is why should you be able to do that?

Do they understand how customers always wanting/working towards gear and mods helps pay for Warframe?

 

High level mods do require too much to max out imo, and I don't know enough of the numbers to suggest a specific reduction. They should be harder to level in general as they are endgame equipment, but currently the only rank 10 mod I've maxed is Transient Fortitude (my WF redirection/serration/hornet strike are all only rank 8.)

 

I feel that people screaming injustice over these issues are blowing them out of proportion to one degree or another without the data to back up their claims. 

If someone came to me with actual figures from DE that proved X or Y is making valuable game supporters leave then I would believe them, but as it is I don't see how much further we can get without some kind of hard evidence.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SoyMalone

[LeMoog]

To the OP, how long did it take you to max out serration and hornet strike when you first started playing?

Should the new MODs be easier to max out now you have built up unreasonable reserves?

I suspect that DE are in the process of removing the vast community reserves of excess prime parts and cores since the demise of ability MODS, given the last void trader appearance bringing duplicate items then it would be reasonable to suggest you have time enough to max them out if you keep on as you are.

Yes newer players are finding it hard to keep up with all the lastest primed MODs even without maxing them but that is assuming that they wont be repeated over and again. If they are going to be repeated then they should just wait for the right time for them to invest or buy with Plat if they really can't wait, same as everything else

Edited February 24, 2015 by LeMoog

[Qynchou]

assuming you can get 20 t4 capture/ext keys every 12 days lined up.. how long does it take to farm for the keys? 15 rounds of some defense missions in higher lvl planets for a chance at the key you want? oh no big deal.

 

edit: or you could buy some key packs, but hey only a chance for the key you want in there too.. and depending on if you spent plat or use 25,000 from syndicate it could take longer.

inb4 you dont like to play with other people and you only prefer going solo and youre internet is very bad and you lag a lot etc etc

Your maths is completely wrong on this one.  The average part price is no where near 26 ducats per item.

There are actually only 22 parts that will give 50 ducats and 38 parts each give 10 and 20 ducats.  The 50 ducat parts are also vastly lower in drop chances.

If we presume all are equal drop chance (a reality we cant actually presume) the average is still only ~22.86 ducats each.

In reality the average is something like the average of all part values, while a part value is part price * drop chance.

 

The only reality we can presume (becuse we dont have the full data) is the minimum ducat rate (the mode cost on droped parts will be 10).  Thus 110 parts per visit needed to be farmed.  So for higher cost ones lets just round it to 100.

 

Taking the time to farm a key and get the part is going to be about 15 mins on average per part (it can take 15-20 mins just to get a random key too).  So some 1500 minutes or about 25 hours just for earning the ducates for trader alone.  So basically you have to play an 'event' for 25 hours to get the 'event' rewards.

But we do have the full data. On average you will get around 22 ducats per prime part. You automatically assume every single part you will get will be 10 ducats which is completely not true.

 

You also assume 1 prime part is farmed every 15 minutes (because thats how long on average it takes to farm a key) which again, is not true. You dont include interception/survival/defense missions which hand out rewards every 5 or less (on average) minutes and also require 1 key per run.

 

This entire thread is one big circlejerk with people assuming RIDICULOUS farm times required to farm anything.

[SnakeWildlife]

To the OP, how long did it take you to max out serration and hornet strike when you first started playing?

Should the new MODs be easier to max out now you have built up unreasonable reserves?

 

 

Over 50% faster than it takes today because of fusion core nerfs and credit cost increases.

 

I wouldnt say it's about how easy or hard it is, simply re-tuning the costs so that it is more fairer for everybody, and actually possible for the min-max playerbase.

 

I just wish players like Soy werent here simply to cause trouble and ignore all input from everybody. His goal at this point is nothing short of 'try to get the topic closed'

 

You give him figures   "those figures arent valid"

You give him evidence   "that evidence isnt good enough"

Wont listen to anything even if you smack it right in front of 'im.

 

Thats why everyone in this topic is sick of listening to that kind of response loop over and over and over.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SnakeWildlife

[LeMoog]

As I said if these items are going to keep being availible then you don't have to spend too much at once, yes premium items are becoming more scarce but it orginally took me a while to max out the 10+ MODs and some I still havent bothered with because of the increasing variety.

 

Yes the "troll to get thread closed" is rife in these forums, why the mods just dont remove the offending posts suggests something other than keeping the peace, IMHO ( this is the feedback thread after all )

Edited February 24, 2015 by LeMoog