Actually Impossible To Pay For Mod Upgrading/ducat Items. Deep Explanation Within. Please Support.

[Qynchou]

You know I never actually tryharded in this game and I always play casually but I will tryhard and see how long it will take me to get 1100 ducats, Im sort of guessing something around 10 hours of gameplay but we'll see.

 

The whining and biased facts in this topic are really amusing.

[SoyMalone]

You have a problem with how much it takes to rank up R10 mods - I have agreed with you.

You say the void trader costs are too high - I disagreed and provided my own evidence.

You say Whales are leaving and the economy is "shattering" with absolutely no proof other than your opinion - I disagree until you deliver hard evidence.

You say things are Impossible - I point out your misuse of the word.

You say that you should be able to max all content before more is released - I give reasons why not and ask why you think so.

 

Your irrational dislike of me notwithstanding, that is the TL;DR reply to your OP. 

[SnakeWildlife]

You know I never actually tryharded in this game and I always play casually but I will tryhard and see how long it will take me to get 1100 ducats, Im sort of guessing something around 10 hours of gameplay but we'll see.

 

The whining and biased facts in this topic are really amusing.

 

The Ducats are reachable within the given time, as they are probably the most reasonably set prices.

 

The problem (and what is unreasonable) is when the game wants a further 4 million credits and 4000+ mods in order for you to remain ontop of releases. Not even a hardcore player can keep that up for long before blowing out with either void keys, credits, or just not having enough mods to fuse with.

 

And Soy, you havent properly read the first post then.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SnakeWildlife

[LeMoog]

I would suggest that the current trend away from everything being availible to short term grind is not going away, there are lots of old time players who have massive reserves of premium items, even after all the primed items.

 

Until these items are used up in some way then few are going to look at the likes of syndicate random mod bundle as being worth investing in and fewer still the ones for plat.

 

Things have changed and maybe it is because DE has used up its PWE grace period, I dont know

 

I do believe that anything ingame worth having should take some earning (within a progressive framework) but at the same time DE still need to make money to keep going, something has got to give

Edited February 24, 2015 by LeMoog

[Onisa]

I feel that people screaming injustice over these issues are blowing them out of proportion to one degree or another without the data to back up their claims. 

If someone came to me with actual figures from DE that proved X or Y is making valuable game supporters leave then I would believe them, but as it is I don't see how much further we can get without some kind of hard evidence.

Beyond illegal means, no one will get those numbers though, since it's the type of info that doesn't tend to come to light until things are terminal.

I can supply you with information that can heavily imply about the state of new player retention though. You see Steam tracks achievements for games that have them, and well here's Warframe's scores.

 

 

This image is about a week old, and even if you consider Steam failing to count half of the achievements earned to make up for the low numbers that's still incredibly sad.

[climatiseur]

Although I'm not a completionist, I do agree with op.

Yeah, those mods are a long term goal, we can rank them up gradually through out the time..... As long as it's the only thing we do in warframe.

However, it's not.

It is for certain that there will be new stuff coming up regularly besides legendary mods. So our resources are not solely devoted to those mods. As a result, I may as well better ignore those mods completely as I know it's impossible to Max up anyway. Which makes these mods useless, as opposed to their usage.

Some fine tune must be done.

[Liminal]

I mostly agree ducat farming sucks. However:

The Ducats are reachable within the given time, as they are probably the most reasonably set prices.

while this is true, the problem is that it's yet another thing making you play voids. So between this and prime farming you'll barely spend time in the other (personally) more entertaining tilesets. This is even worse when you play endless modes (obviously because you get rewards faster in those), as the most efficient playstyles in those are extremely boring (and repetitive).

 

If you can only play a couple of hours a day you will need to rush these missions to get enough ducats. If you don't play every day the requirements go up, obviously. And in the end you'll barely do anything but void missions. I think it's very bad for the game.

 

"Don't like it, don't play it?" No, I'm sorry, but I blame the game, not the player. Everything wrong in your game is your fault because you have the tools necessary to fix it.

Edited February 24, 2015 by The_Doc

[SnakeWildlife]

@ The_doc   Very much agree. Whilst i have the time to make the Ducat deadlines, a lot of people dont. Ducat prices are reachable, but like as stated in the first post, it still needs a reduction to fit a higher portion of the playerbase other than the top farmers/most privelaged whales.

[Onisa]

Provided that there is a ton of Keys lying around to be rewarded to players so that they could play Void missions, the chances of having every Void mission that the player has run rewarding no Prime parts is close to nil. 

 

And provided that Void Keys can be obtained rather easily as well (and sometimes quickly too), means more hits at Prime parts for a given period of time

I'll take "What is RNG?" for 200.

Perhaps I'm just unlucky, but I've chased keys around in circles before without getting prime parts. Mind you it's usually on lower tiers but T1 Cap to T1 MD to T2 cap to T1 Def to T1 Cap and cores is nor a rewarding experience.

[Qynchou]

-snip-

Ive been playing since early closed beta, here are my achievements in steam:

:-)

I have 148/161 In game, the only ones I dont have are the mastery rank and revive teammate ones. Using global steam achievements is a bad idea, however I do agree with the fact that new player retention may be a problem.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Qynchou

[SoyMalone]

The Ducats are reachable within the given time, as they are probably the most reasonably set prices.

 

The problem (and what is unreasonable) is when the game wants a further 4 million credits and 4000+ mods in order for you to remain ontop of releases. Not even a hardcore player can keep that up for long before blowing out with either void keys, credits, or just not having enough mods to fuse with.

 

And Soy, you havent properly read the first post then.

Ok, enlighten me - exactly which points have I missed then?

[Parthieon]

@ The_doc   Very much agree. Whilst i have the time to make the Ducat deadlines, a lot of people dont. Ducat prices are reachable, but like as stated in the first post, it still needs a reduction to fit a higher portion of the playerbase other than the top farmers/most privelaged whales.

Thats the idea i can get behind. I got my friend to play with me again and just trying to get to speed is hard. This game is super time requiring, its not something you can pickup and put down like Cod or halo. It also probably discourages a lot of players. Im rank 17 and iv never had more than 3million credits. But seeing how certain mods are to max stresses the crap outta me. And i cant do that repetitive stuff, i have hard time enough trying to stay awake and playing the game, im not gonna sit there and ult 4 to win. I cant play this game like that, its no fun, and its stupid. Plus for me, i have access to all the missions, but a bunch of players dont. They dont have stacks of void keys, nor the gear like me or others to run it.

[Onisa]

Ive been playing since early closed beta, here are my achievements in steam:

 

[image]

 

:-)

I have 148/161 In game, the only ones I dont have are the mastery rank and revive teammate ones. Using global steam achievements is a bad idea, however I do agree with the fact that new player retention may be a problem.

I did mention that even if the numbers were doubled to account for Steam error some of the numbers were still quite sad. For example, the Proficiency I achievements.  The rifle and pistol versions even doubled come to less than half the player base. Does Steam acknowledge you have those?

 

On the flip side, if this part of Steam's info is unreliable why are we considering any of it?

 

Edit: Speaking of Cheater of Death and Cryptographer, any idea when they'll stop resetting?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Onisa

[Qynchou]

I did mention that even if the numbers were doubled to account for Steam error some of the numbers were still quite sad. For example, the Proficiency I achievements.  The rifle and pistol versions even doubled come to less than half the player base. Does Steam acknowledge you have those?

 

On the flip side, if this part of Steam's info is unreliable why are we considering any of it?

 

Edit: Speaking of Cheater of Death and Cryptographer, any idea when they'll stop resetting?

It doesnt:

[(PSN)RedChili69]

You gus whine about everything. This spoiled generation is annoying.

Edited February 24, 2015 by (PS4)RedChili69

[Drasiel]

Provided that there is a ton of Keys lying around to be rewarded to players so that they could play Void missions, the chances of having every Void mission that the player has run rewarding no Prime parts is close to nil. 

 

And provided that Void Keys can be obtained rather easily as well (and sometimes quickly too), means more hits at Prime parts for a given period of time

 

True getting no prime parts on all the keys you run is rare (unless you are running t1's and t2's then it's the norm) it's not uncommon to get large amounts of non prime gear out of even t3 keys. Last time I bothered trying to grind for ducats I ran about 20 t3 captures. I received no less than 13 forma blueprints. Now I would normally be happy to receive this much forma instead of "useless prime parts I already have", except prime parts aren't useless any more. Prime parts are the reason I was using (or clearly wasting, as I feel now) my time to run those keys. It has been nearly this exact same experience with every key I try running. I would get fusion cores, I would get forma, I would get forma blueprints, I would get cells. Talk about feeling like a complete waste of time grind from my end.

 

When you have a limited time to play getting prime parts only a third of the time spent makes the grind exceptionally painful. Especially if you are mostly getting the 10 value parts as your reward -_-

[denshibushi]

Quite a lot. 

 

But I am still obtaining Cores right now, and I am holding down a huge stockpile of them, not to mention that I also use other Mods than Fusion Cores as Fusion power. 

 

 

Using other Mods for fusion power makes the credit cost go up. The base issue remains. Reminds me of a joke I heard in college. You can party, sleep, and study. But you can only do two of those successfully at the same time. Well you can obtain cores, prime parts, and credits. But really only 2 of those effectively at any given time.

[Callback]

@ The_doc   Very much agree. Whilst i have the time to make the Ducat deadlines, a lot of people dont. Ducat prices are reachable, but like as stated in the first post, it still needs a reduction to fit a higher portion of the playerbase other than the top farmers/most privelaged whales.

Duck prices aren't as bad as people think, if you know the trick.

 

Warframe part BPs are worth more than they appear.  If you actually craft the component, it sells for 50.  It also shakes things up a bit if you need to run off to an assassinate or something for a resource it needs.

 

 

But the main point here is how broken the fusion formula is.

 

 

Originally, mods maxed at 5, with small exceptions like redirection, serration, etc. as the only 10s, and those were just common and uncommon.  It made sense for these mods to be slow to rank, and progress towards it was helped by the open drop tables, ensuring you would get many duplicates over your playtime, no matter how it was spent.  Getting the eventual 1024 copies of that one mod was something that would happen.

 

Equilibrium was the first 10 rank mod to be released after the initial set, and that was still uncommon.  We then got reflex guard as our first rare 10.  This started the broken trend we see now.

 

Corrupted mods came out, all rare, many 10.  Sanctuary was uncapped from 3 to 10.  Archwing and kubrows threw 10s around like nothing, and now we have primeds that are even harder than rares to rank.

 

And all of this with no change to the formula for how rank 10s behave.

 

 

The old formula worked with the old game.  It was a way of keeping progress on that limited set of mods gradual, and relied more on fusing duplicates you were guaranteed to accrue over time rather than being anything to farm for.  The current set is the exact opposite.  You do not get duplicates to fuse.  You are required to use cores and spares to max these mods, and the amount required is completely unreasonable as the system stands.

 

They added in the ability to find r5 cores, sure.  That is ok as a means to farm, but the rate you can get them is still way too far off from what the formula requires.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/404859-the-problem-with-rank-10-mods/ is a proposal for an updated formula.  It keeps fusion as a lofty goal to work towards, but would allow tangible progress under the current core drop system.

 

 

 

Also we need underclocking, but that's its own issue.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Callback

[denshibushi]

They cannot. They can indirectly get most stuff with plat, but not directly. Prime parts require either grinding, or trading, which is MR locked to MR 2. Many weapons are MR locked up to MR 6. Ranking up requires effort and leveling many different weapons and frames. To get a better gun, you need better mods. Sure you can buy those mods, leveled even, but this once again requires access to trading which is once again MR locked, and you can only trade for so much each day. You cannot buy or trade for syndicate syandanas, so if you want them you have to work HARD for them. If you want to make your weapons strong with mods, you will probably have to forma your weapon, which requires re-leveling. Though these things might be small, they mean that even a person who has all the money in the world can't just come in and have the best gear the game can offer straight away. They are forced to understand the game's mechanics to at least a reasonable extent.

 

P.s. Another good example is event weapons/badges/etc, that you have to participate and work for to get.

 

Uh, your contention about MR lock would only make sense if you were talking numbers in the double digits. You can hit MR 2 with starting gear. MR 6 isn't much more difficult. Although your point about syndicate syndanyanas is true, we're talking about mods and equipment that actually do something. And all of that can be bought for platinum. Which is bought for real money. Trading might take 15 minutes a day. I'd say that is a lot less than the grind we've been discussing.

[denshibushi]

Ok, i didn't read the whole thread, but i'm just gonna throw some numbers here based on what i read on wiki:

 

- R5 cores gives 62 energy

- 50% of their energy goes to the mod

- Legendary mods needs 16368 energy from rank 0 to 10

- Fusing a R5 core cost 3,150 creds each

- Trading a R5 core cost 8,00 creds each

 

So, if someone got a rank 0 legendary core and wants to buy R5 enough to make it rank 10, the numbers are:

 

- 528 R5 cores

- 1,663 M cred on fusion

- 4,224 M cred on trade

 

If we agree that there are enough R5 available on market, and they cost 5 for 4p, you're gonna need 423p.

 

Therefore, i'd rather do 10-extra hours on my job and use my earned money to buy platinum, so i could just buy a maxed legendary mod for 1000-1100p.

 

 

There is another number that doesn't appear on this math: time spent farming.

 

I feel like the best way to spend you time playing Warframe is not actually playing it. 

 

And that in a nutshell is the issue. Well said!

[Onisa]

Duck prices aren't as bad as people think, if you know the trick.

 

Warframe part BPs are worth more than they appear.  If you actually craft the component, it sells for 50.  It also shakes things up a bit if you need to run off to an assassinate or something for a resource it needs.

 

DE may have fixed that, I tried with Ember Prime Helmet yesterday and it didn't work. Blueprint and item were 10 ducats each.

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

What if you derped out and built a whole weapon when you meant to claim an item? Can you sell those for duc's? ...Guess I'll find out. 

[Renegade343]

Perhaps I'm just unlucky, but I've chased keys around in circles before without getting prime parts. Mind you it's usually on lower tiers but T1 Cap to T1 MD to T2 cap to T1 Def to T1 Cap and cores is nor a rewarding experience.

Try playing around T2 Missions. 

 

They tend to reward a bit more Prime parts (such as Sabotage, or Mobile Defence, both of which have a slightly higher percentage of 20 - 50 Ducat Prime parts, such as the Hikou Prime Blueprint or Nyx Prime Helmet Blueprint). 

[Callback]

DE may have fixed that, I tried with Ember Prime Helmet yesterday and it didn't work. Blueprint and item were 10 ducats each.

I checked, it's only certain ones.  Nyx especially, 10 and 20 become 50.

[hatetheory]

Question: why do you need to rank every R10 mod and buy every item the void trader offers?

Just buy 3 of em and try to rank em up you will be an old man by the time your done. The nerf sucks and I'm taking a break until something is done about it. I brought multiple steam friends to this game who have spent money but i cant reccomend this game with no feasible way to actually progres at a decent rate. My group will be taking a break i think.