Handspring Shouldn't Be A Mod

[RealityMachina]

It's reasonable to think that whatever can knock over this so-called badass space ninja

Please tell me you just didn't go there.

 

Please.

[Blatantfool]

Time to slow down and get back to constructive conversation, gentlefolk. This forum does enforce courtesy and respect for others as a rule.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/7-community-rules/

[MJ12]

It's reasonable to think that whatever can knock over this so-called badass space ninja is actually powerful enough to accomplish the task. It's also reasonable to believe that if Tenno are being hit that hard, they aren't going to just shake off the fact that they've had their clocks cleaned. Even the sturdiest of men will take a moment to recollect themselves after being knocked flat with a smack of a bat.

If you get smacked by a bat you're stunned because of the fact that you have a concussion. Warframes are armored suits containing superhuman cyborgs.

It's much easier to knock them down than it is to seriously hurt them, as demonstrated by how you can get knocked down a dozen times without losing shields. Nobody's saying remove knockdown, just to make the animation faster.

[MoonicusMaximus]

If you get smacked by a bat you're stunned because of the fact that you have a concussion. Warframes are armored suits containing superhuman cyborgs.

It's much easier to knock them down than it is to seriously hurt them, as demonstrated by how you can get knocked down a dozen times without losing shields. Nobody's saying remove knockdown, just to make the animation faster.

 

If you're going to assume that Warframes are armored suits containing superhuman cyborgs, based on the lore and what we glean through gameplay, then I am going to assume that whatever can knock down a superhuman cyborg in an armored suit, which probably weighs a fair bit, is going to disorient Tenno enough to have them spend 2-3 seconds getting back onto their feet, based on general common sense and what we glean through gameplay.

 

And now you can make the animation faster now. With the Handspring mod.

 

The question of whether it should be so rare or not, however, is debatable.

[RealityMachina]

If you're going to assume that Warframes are armored suits containing superhuman cyborgs, based on the lore and what we glean through gameplay, then I am going to assume that whatever can knock down a superhuman cyborg in an armored suit, which probably weighs a fair bit, is going to disorient Tenno enough to have them spend 2-3 seconds getting back onto their feet, based on general common sense and what we glean through gameplay.

Yes, and if we go by gameplay in the early Halo games Master Chief can't run faster than Usain Bolt despite being a 26th century cyber commando.

 

And just like that example, the idea that random mook #43098 can just flat out knockdown badass super ninjas like that is just bull excretion. Stagger, I'm willing to accept. Flat out knockdown so hard they can barely get up? I'm sorry, you reserve that sort of stuff for badass bosses.

 

To use a game that does it right, here's another video from Metal Gear Rising, this one of the final boss fight (so spoilers for those playing Revegenance right now):

http://youtu.be/Rep9nVnYPSE?t=18m38s

Notice how boss man there does a light attack, knocking Raiden down. Notice how Raiden easily gets up from that. That should be standard behaviour for knockdowns from mooks, if you are going to give mooks the ability to knockdown Warframes.

 

Now here's boss man giving Raiden an attack with his full strength:

http://youtu.be/Rep9nVnYPSE?t=20m6s

That sort of thing, or just knockdowns from bosses in general (as long as you don't overdo it), I'm willing to accept longer get ups from to demonstrate that this boss is not like his minions and will not be a pushover.

[Mietz]

The fact people are arguing realism in fiction is hilarious by itself.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The fact people are arguing realism in fiction is hilarious by itself.

 

B-but my immersion!

[Mietz]

B-but my immersion!

 

Clearly Master Chief could have supplexed Brooklyn if he wanted to.

 

PS: Lara Crofts %$# were too big to backflip over dinosaurs in 1996, if she had smaller %$# it would have been A-OK.

[RealityMachina]

The fact people are arguing realism in fiction is hilarious by itself.

 

 

B-but my immersion!

 

 

Clearly Master Chief could have supplexed Brooklyn if he wanted to.

 

PS: Lara Crofts $* were too big to backflip over dinosaurs in 1996, if she had smaller $* it would have been A-OK.

Jesus titty effing christ.

 

You guys are seriously putting down the concept of immersion? Or the concept of trying to have your work of fiction have some semblance to the lore you have given it? Are you for freakin' real?!

Edited May 8, 2013 by RealityMachina

[MoonicusMaximus]

Jesus titty effing christ.

 

You guys are seriously putting down the concept of immersion? Or the concept of trying to have your work of fiction have some semblance to the lore you have given it? Are you for freakin' real?!

 

Actually, I'm looking at how the game is.

 

Shockwave Moas shockwaves knock you down. And they potentially have a valid reason to be able to.

 

So simmer down champ.

[Mak_Gohae]

Yes, and if we go by gameplay in the early Halo games Master Chief can't run faster than Usain Bolt despite being a 26th century cyber commando.

 

And just like that example, the idea that random mook #43098 can just flat out knockdown badass super ninjas like that is just bull excretion. Stagger, I'm willing to accept. Flat out knockdown so hard they can barely get up? I'm sorry, you reserve that sort of stuff for badass bosses.

 

 

Why does 26th century cyber commando have to run faster than Usain Bolt? He already jumps as high as a pole vaulter without using any poles.

 

What random mook can knock you down? Only special units who have special attacks and orokin technology thingies.

I ask again, where in the game has it been stated that Warframes should not be able to be knocked out by any sort of special attack or orokin technology thingies?

[ValhaHazred]

I hope this was just some sort of test and it isn't done. 

 

It's really weird just how slow getting up is in this game, I don't think I've ever seen a stand-up animation take so long before. Punishing failure is fine, but this game makes it too easy to get caught in knockdown juggle.

[SaintLucifer]

I so agree with the idea that it should just a be feature like a button...hek i already spam space bar by instinct to stand up due certain other games having this option, so why warframe could not have it too...

[epochofentropy]

For all you stunlock haters: Where's the video? I want to see a minute of gameplay heading up to said event.

 

I think that a big difference between the people who think stunlocks are game breaking and those that think they are fine is how they address the situation. Those that see it as gamebreaking seem to think that any interruption in their play style (probably just running around swinging at things) is unacceptable, where those that don't see stuns as game breaking adapt their strategy to deal with enemies that could potentially stun them.

 

PS: Is it so unfathomable that Corpus would invent specific technology that temporarily disables Tenno, considering that their ships and bases keep getting attacked by some crazy sword-wielding madmen jumping around, climbing walls and shooting everything that moves?

[MJ12]

For all you stunlock haters: Where's the video? I want to see a minute of gameplay heading up to said event.

 

I think that a big difference between the people who think stunlocks are game breaking and those that think they are fine is how they address the situation. Those that see it as gamebreaking seem to think that any interruption in their play style (probably just running around swinging at things) is unacceptable, where those that don't see stuns as game breaking adapt their strategy to deal with enemies that could potentially stun them.

There you go again! Telling people that if they don't like stunlock they should learn to play. I haven't ever been stunlocked by shield lancers or shockwave moas or even Rhino/Hyena deciding to do ten stomps in a row. That doesn't mean stunlock is good, interesting, empowering, or even being able to quickly recover is a bad thing.

Assume you instantly land on your feet when knocked back. You're still punished by being in midair for a good fraction of a second with no way to act. You still have to land, and the landing animation takes time. While all this is happening you're still getting shot. Nobody is saying remove knockdown, just that faster recovery animations would help a hell of a lot. The old getting up animation can happen because you got blindsided by Lech Kril's super hammer and he just smacked away 100% of your shields.

Hell you could make Shockwave Moas spawn more often now. More challenge and more risk.

 

PS: Is it so unfathomable that Corpus would invent specific technology that temporarily disables Tenno, considering that their ships and bases keep getting attacked by some crazy sword-wielding madmen jumping around, climbing walls and shooting everything that moves?

Um, yes, because in the lore the Corpus DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. They don't know what they're making. They're a cargo cult. But let's ignore this. In Crysis 2 and 3, CELL has specific technology to fight nanosuits. They temporarily keep you from using your powers, which are the real game changer. Without them you're a Call of Duty protagonist facing smarter enemies with a lot more toughness than your dies-in-one-hit CoD mook.

That adds tension without being frustrating or disempowering, because even WHILE EMPed you are a superior combatant one-on-one. Just you're a bit outnumbered, and by "bit" I mean "15-1 per encounter". It puts you at a severe disadvantage but lets you do things while disadvantaged, and that's the thing. Debuffing players is okay. Disabling them isn't.

[MoonicusMaximus]

There you go again! Telling people that if they don't like stunlock they should learn to play. I haven't ever been stunlocked by shield lancers or shockwave moas or even Rhino/Hyena deciding to do ten stomps in a row. That doesn't mean stunlock is good, interesting, empowering, or even being able to quickly recover is a bad thing.

 

Being stunned isn't supposed to be good or empowering, it's supposed to be troublesome and disruptive to force the player to consider the dangers units with the ability to stun you represent, thereby encouraging you to adapt to your situation through incentives of not wanting your control tussled. And you haven't been stunlocked by shield lancers, shockwave moas and Hyena's because they also have the capability to impart a lot of damage to you, in addition to their stunning effects; their stuns are much easier to dodge and circumvent, with long wind-up times or easily-noticeable indications. While things like Rollers only stagger you for a much smaller amount of time and impart very little damage. Chargers will only stagger you for a short amount of time with their leap, otherwise their claw attacks do not stagger and, while not dangerous alone, can become troublesome if you allow them to swarm you.

 

Assume you instantly land on your feet when knocked back. You're still punished by being in midair for a good fraction of a second with no way to act. You still have to land, and the landing animation takes time. While all this is happening you're still getting shot. Nobody is saying remove knockdown, just that faster recovery animations would help a hell of a lot. The old getting up animation can happen because you got blindsided by Lech Kril's super hammer and he just smacked away 100% of your shields.

Hell you could make Shockwave Moas spawn more often now. More challenge and more risk.

 

If all you're asking for is to change the knocked-down and stagger animations, and not actually tamper with their inherent lengths unaffected by Handspring, then I can understand and encourage that sort of change. Instead of being knocked flat by a shockwave for 2 seconds, the Tenno is knocked away, but does a flip and lands in a kneeling position before rising for 2 seconds. That would be fine, and pretty fun to watch, admittedly, while still preserving DE's current mechanics surrounding stuns and staggers.

 

Um, yes, because in the lore the Corpus DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. They don't know what they're making. They're a cargo cult. But let's ignore this. In Crysis 2 and 3, CELL has specific technology to fight nanosuits. They temporarily keep you from using your powers, which are the real game changer. Without them you're a Call of Duty protagonist facing smarter enemies with a lot more toughness than your dies-in-one-hit CoD mook.

That adds tension without being frustrating or disempowering, because even WHILE EMPed you are a superior combatant one-on-one. Just you're a bit outnumbered, and by "bit" I mean "15-1 per encounter". It puts you at a severe disadvantage but lets you do things while disadvantaged, and that's the thing. Debuffing players is okay. Disabling them isn't.

 

Debuffing players is fine, as well as disabling players, as long as they are imparted upon the player as a punishment for poor play in a fair and reasonable manner with equally reasonable lengths.

Edited May 8, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MJ12]

Being stunned isn't supposed to be good or empowering, it's supposed to be troublesome and disruptive to force the player to consider the dangers units with the ability to stun you represent, thereby encouraging you to adapt to your situation through incentives of not wanting your control tussled. And you haven't been stunlocked by shield lancers, shockwave moas and Hyena's because they also have the capability to impart a lot of damage to you, in addition to their stunning effects; their stuns are much easier to dodge and circumvent, with long wind-up times or easily-noticeable indications. While things like Rollers only stagger you for a much smaller amount of time and impart very little damage. Chargers will only stagger you for a short amount of time with their leap, otherwise their claw attacks do not stagger and, while not dangerous alone, can become troublesome if you allow them to swarm you.

 

This is bad logic and could be used to defend the game reformatting your hard drive for "poor play". You see, the difference between a videogame and real life is that if in real life you get knocked to the ground and beaten up, you give up, which is what the other party wants. The fear of being knocked to the ground and beaten up is there to keep you from doing what you were doing before.

 

In a videogame the designers want you to keep playing. Punishing you for "poor play" is counterproductive because you're punishing someone for doing what you want-playing the game, they want to reward you for playing even if you're obviously not very good at the game (which is why even if you're losing and dying the game should be fun and exciting). Before you strawman this to hell, "rewarding" someone in this case doesn't mean letting them advance or anything. It means that even losing gameplay should be fun gameplay, so you want to keep going back to this game. Losing should never feel 'cheap'.

 

Difficulty levels are a good start to the idea of rewarding people for playing period, but addressing inherently problematic and frustrating mechanics such as stunlock is another.

 

If all you're asking for is to change the knocked-down and stagger animations, and not actually tamper with their inherent lengths unaffected by Handspring, then I can understand and encourage that sort of change. Instead of being knocked flat by a shockwave for 2 seconds, the Tenno is knocked away, but does a flip and lands in a kneeling position before rising for 2 seconds. That would be fine, and pretty fun to watch, admittedly, while still preserving DE's current mechanics surrounding stuns and staggers.

 

No, I'm saying that the current lengths are too long. I would be fine with being knocked down four times as often (not the same thing as being stunlocked by being knocked down repeatedly in the same area, but being knocked down, say, eight times by Shockwave Moas per mission instead of two) if the recovery animation was 1/3rd the length, assuming there was some sort of stunlock protection inbuilt so you couldn't be repeatedly juggled (the recovery animation should have higher priority than the stagger animation). Because then it'd be easier to get in a bad situation by being knocked down and into the open while being shot at, but it'd be much easier to recover because you're disabled for a slower period of time. Games are at their most exciting and most challenging when you're in a bad situation but you can see a way out. A good challenging game is always throwing you in bad situations but makes it 'easy' (or at least possible) for people to recover from them.

 

And in the end the time I actually spend disabled is increased by 33%, yes, but it's in much shorter bursts and that's the main thing. You don't spend extended periods of time unempowered because of one enemy. The game can be made more challenging while feeling more empowering. Prototype and Prototype 2, for example. Although the latter game was far more empowering (you could literally become invulnerable to 80% of the enemies with a mid-game upgrade!) because the enemies which could hurt you were faster, more varied, and had more interesting attacks, as well as coming in greater numbers, it was actually more challenging combat-wise than its prequel game. Despite your upgrades being absolutely ridiculous.

 

Debuffing players is fine, as well as disabling players, as long as they are imparted upon the player as a punishment for poor play in a fair and reasonable manner with equally reasonable lengths.

 

No, disabling players is almost never fine. Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends use similar mechanics. The difference is LoL restricted stuns very heavily and basically prevented any form of stunlock. This caused a whole bunch of MOBA grognards to boycott LoL and play HoN instead. What happened in the end was HoN basically died and LoL became the most popular game on Earth, surpassing Farmville. No, this wasn't solely because of stunlock, but it was because LoL tried as hard as it could to be friendly to newbies while catering to high-skill players, while HoN exclusively catered to high-skill players.

 

Some high-skill players will accept stunlock because it happens so rarely to them. Others, even though it happens only rarely, will not. The majority of lesser players will not, and the rest won't defend stunlock and demand it be returned if it's gone. So you're right that stun is acceptable with 'reasonable lengths'. LoL has decided that the 'reasonable length' is "less than 1 second" and only if it happens rarely, and they're clearly doing something right.

[ValhaHazred]

Stun/knockdown lock very rarely happens to me, but it is super annoying when it does.

Listen to MJ12, they speak the truth :)

[SkyllianBlitz]

Let's take a look at a game that's considered amazingly hard.

 

 

Anytime there was a stun or knockdown, it didn't last long and there was a recovery move immediately available.

 

I want Warframe to be more like this. Don't lock players down, give them the tools to get out of trouble and just throw more trouble at them, harder and faster.

[Mak_Gohae]

Let's take a look at a game that's considered amazingly hard.

 

 

Anytime there was a stun or knockdown, it didn't last long and there was a recovery move immediately available.

 

I want Warframe to be more like this. Don't lock players down, give them the tools to get out of trouble and just throw more trouble at them, harder and faster.

 

That's a single player game... you dont have buddies to cover your back.

Yes, this game can be played alone but it's not really built around a single player experience.

[MJ12]

That's a single player game... you dont have buddies to cover your back.

Yes, this game can be played alone but it's not really built around a single player experience.

 

And how is this relevant? I didn't know that if I got stunlocked in Warframe, I could take over another player's position and continue playing the game. This is a complete non sequitur because it doesn't matter if you have 'buddies to cover your back'. The problem with stun mechanics isn't 'you take damage while stunned', because if it was there'd be no difference between an attack that does 100 damage and being stunlocked for 10 seconds while you take 10 damage per second.

 

It's "you cannot play the game or do anything for the duration of the stun" which having 1, 2, 3, or 9 thousand players to 'cover your back' doesn't help with at all.

Edited May 8, 2013 by MJ12

[Mak_Gohae]

And how is this relevant? I didn't know that if I got stunlocked in Warframe, I could take over another player's position and continue playing the game.

 

The part about buddies not covering you wasnt enough of an explanation?

Having buddies ride along lowers the chance of those stun locks from happening. 

[SkyllianBlitz]

That's a single player game... you dont have buddies to cover your back.

Yes, this game can be played alone but it's not really built around a single player experience.

 

 

 

What, you don't find the idea of a team of four space ninjas shooting, slashing and back-flipping their way through hell's teeth incredibly fun and attractive?

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

 

What, you don't find the idea of a team of four space ninjas shooting, slashing and back-flipping their way through hell's teeth incredibly fun and attractive?

 

That grab attack sure took a long time.....

[MJ12]

The part about buddies not covering you wasnt enough of an explanation?

Having buddies ride along lowers the chance of those stun locks from happening. 

 

Do you understand what a non sequitur is? It's a statement which does not even attempt to refute the point.

 

That's what you gave me. A non sequitur. Having buddies ride along "lowers the chance" of those "stun locks". Okay. How does this change the point SkyllianBlitz was making, which is you can make a hard game without any chance for stunlock and stuns/staggers being extraordinarily rare?

 

The answer is, "it doesn't".