Loki Is Just Too Strong

[Draciusen]

Am I the only one who sees no problem with a Loki in the squad disabling all the enemy's weapons and CC'ing them? Sure he's got great CC; but he's not the only one who can CC a bunch of enemies for easy pickings. Banshee can stunlock a room, Nova slows them down to a point where they're not a threat and blows them up, Nyx can draw almost all the enemy fire, Mirage can just blind everything, while Vauban forces every enemy into a nice compact area.

 

Not to mention a single mistake sends Loki bleeding out. Cast Radial Disarm while not invisible? Enjoy the one-shot Lancer bullet. Find yourself in the wrong side of a mosh pit after disabling all enemy weapons? Have fun getting beat into submission. Bombard hiding in a Nullifier bubble? Godspeed.

 

On the other hand, a Mesa standing there shooting everything in sight while I just watch kills my gameplay experience a bit.

[RealPandemonium]

Where is your Irradiated Disarm man ? 

It is IRD that trivializes content, not RD itself.

IRD is kind of a waste in any mission where you don't have to defend a stationary target (and in defense missions that you are equipped to handle it's still not necessary) because it is possible to run backwards while shooting, such that you will never take damage from disarmed enemies.  Maybe once in a while you will have to jump kick.  If anything, IRD doesn't allow enemies to clump into a large group since they all acquire different targets instead of all chasing after a player.  The only thing IRD is really good for is if you're lazy (cmon man you're already playing Loki) and can't be assed to backpedal.  

[Etherouge]

Instead of nerfing Loki, I would think the other frames he outshines should be buffed with better utilities.

[AlphaHorseman]

A frame with a ability that disables targeting on him AND a decoy that pulls aggro away from him is actually far from squishy. You could just as well call a hysteria valk squishy. And slowed enemys still have a timer going. Molecular prime needs a full mod-bar to work while lokis CC build needs 3-4 mod slots inc efficiency to maximation...

Enemies can still hit him, even when invisible. Decoy and Invisibility go hand in hand, the synergy of his kit, along with Switch Teleport. Actually no, even outside of Hysteria, Valkyr has the highest Armor Value (bar Vex Armor) of any WarFrame in the game. Molecular Prime also has a lengthy timer.

 

 

Well the timers and energy drain are the limits. Meant to prevent constant use/over spam. As for the excal RB thing ive used it myself with max duration (since I am not one who just spams RJ over and over) On weaker enemies they stay stunned longer, on stronger ones it wears off faster. (noticed it during a tactical alert and when doing t4 survival)

 

The trade off isn't that enemies move the same speed. In fact thats normal, otherwise every damage skill could call that a trade off after the initial stagger. If they moved at break neck speeds and bum rushed you knocking you down before swarming you then id call that a trade off. (though that sounds OP lol it would be considered a trade off) But for RD there is no trade off, reduced to having glow sticks that will stay there until they are killed with the ability to spam it. If it gets some form of valid trade off then there wouldn't be a problem with it.

 

Its not that people hate him because he is a good frame. Its more or less that people dislike him being the answer to anything thats a challenge. Heavy coming this way? RD. High level enemy spam? RD. Can only bring melee? RD+invis. (though its normally just bring a loki as an answer) One skill should never be the answer to every problem, especially when said skill has no limit to its functionality like pretty much every other skill does. I personally do not mind that RD does what it does, but I feel that it need something to put a cap on how well it preforms against enemies that scale. As the enemies scale difficulty should increase as well as the potential for dying. With no limit to RD the only thing that increases is the time it takes to kill enemies and the slight chance of being 1 shot/being effected by auras. Which in a sense does not add realistic difficulty, it makes difficulty trivial in comparison. Which I can see as a problem. Loki is like frost was, a 1 trick pony only useful for his RD because RD is OP with no limit.

We should wait for Official Word by DE, as I haven't seen the difference myself when using RB on higher or lower level content.

 

Haha, that tradeoff is for Molecular Prime, however normal speed enemies is there for RD. But, as Vaughan has stated: 

 

Not in relation to this post in general, but I think this is actually one instance where better AI is all that's needed. The common issue I see associated with RD is that the melee AI is easily confused and can be led around in circles or stuck in place to take them out of the fight completely. Better melee AI would make using RD a bit less of an "I win" card.

 

The solution is already available here, not as a nerf to his ability, but a buff to enemy AI capabilities, not solely for Loki, but for our enemies. Inadvertently, this makes using RD have some interesting results, and some fun ones too! Here's the link:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-rework-all-the-enemies-grineer-lancer/

 

As you can see, when enemies reach higher levels, they receive melee weapons. Thus, even if they are disarmed of a primary and secondary, they'll have their own melee weapons to use in combat. I'd suggest reading through each one for their melee weapons, and if you want to, provide feedback for them as well, fine tuning the idea could go a long ways to making our enemies "challenging" in a sense.

 

Whoa there, Loki is far from a one trick pony. Even as a person that doesn't main him, his stealth potential with extended duration Invis, along with Crowd Control builds that focus on Radial Disarm and Switch Teleport, along with battlefield manipulation with Invis and Decoy make him a very versatile Frame. However, if the disarming does bug people, the linked thread should provide some ways where this wouldn't always be the case.

[AlphaHorseman]

Instead of nerfing Loki, I would think the other frames he outshines should be buffed with better utilities.

For a new guy on the Forums, I like your idea, +1!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Instead of nerfing Loki, I would think the other frames he outshines should be buffed with better utilities.

Basicly "buff ALL frames". OR we could nerv the one overpowered frame.

[fatpig84]

IRD is kind of a waste in any mission where you don't have to defend a stationary target (and in defense missions that you are equipped to handle it's still not necessary) because it is possible to run backwards while shooting, such that you will never take damage from disarmed enemies.  Maybe once in a while you will have to jump kick.  If anything, IRD doesn't allow enemies to clump into a large group since they all acquire different targets instead of all chasing after a player.  The only thing IRD is really good for is if you're lazy (cmon man you're already playing Loki) and can't be assed to backpedal.  

 

I use IRD not only for it's disarm. I use it for it's other purposes like turning off auras and CC effect.

It is not being lazy or backpedaling.

 

If I am soloing, I just bring my perma invisible loki with my R10 Primed Reach Orthos Prime and snooze my way through. 

Being doing that for all my syndicate treasure hunts. Oh yeah you can nerf his invisibility but Ash will do the same easily anyway.

 

If I am in a team, I bring IRD, so I can fill 3 roles at once, a debuffer (removes auras), a CC (force them to fight among themselves) and also a nullifier (removes weapons).

 

The only time I use normal RD is when someone asks me to play a static survival so we can funnel enemy traffic in.

But that is frankly quite boring. Outside of that, I no longer use regular disarm much since I already switch over to a Sinister Reach Amprex as my main gun. Unless I feel like playing torrid again with decoy.

 

Imo in a non static T4 team survival, the benefits of enemy CC is far more importantly than channeling the mobs since it greatly prevents that level 105 Nullifier from 1 shotting my team mate as he will usually be forced to engage his old friends. 

 

Again different mindset of players.

Edited July 25, 2015 by fatpig84

[BBOTAA]

I don't share Op opinion.
Very good for a niche, and thats it, outside that....Very solid frame for all time of missions.
Altough overpowered I don't think so... When you look at the strong points, you also got to look to his downsides wich you didn't.
And if you haven't played him or made a build for him at all...Pretty much you can't understand it,because that's when you find out whats wrong,you have to try, to know it.
You'll see that many of your statements aren't good at all when you try it.
It has as many strong points as weak ones.
So.. this is one opinion\advice.. When you try to review a frame at least put some hours to it.. and try a couple of builds... They can work in many ways.. and I could refute every one of arguments... But I won't it would be to long.

Edited July 25, 2015 by BBOTAA

[AlphaHorseman]

 

Loki is a low survive ability Frame. But that isn't the only balancing point for his powers. All his abilities do not do damage, that is also another trade off.

 

Decoy has a set HP and timer, and it draws enemy aggro. Thus, in content equal to the players' overall strength, it would perform optimally. In content lower than player strength, this ability performs well as a sustainable tool in most any situation requiring aggro control. In content higher than the players' overall strength, it works only as a slight distraction, as enemy DPS would wipe it the moment it raises that lato into the sky. 

 

Invisibility is an ability that also has its benefits and detriments. Although this does allow for easier stealth play, players' bumping into enemy units can still alert enemy units. Also, if you fire a weapon that is not innately silenced or modded for silence (I dare someone to say they have credible evidence that a large portion of the community uses Hush), enemy units will be alerted to your position and fire at said position. With changes to enemy AI accuracy by [DE]Glen and others, their potency at accuracy is varied depending on unit and distance, but that does not discount that players are able to be hit. Thus is another balancing point of Invisibility, you are rendered Invisible, but you are not invulnerable. Invisible or not, enemy units can still hit and hurt you, and in content above the players' overall strength, it can kill you quite easily with Loki's low survive ability stats.

 

No matter the level of content, a Valkyr in Hysteria cannot be killed, and thus is not squishy, and cannot be claimed to be squishy.

 

Switch Teleport is a very useful tool for positioning, but it also opens up the player to some very dangerous situations. If used without a good feel for the current state of the battlefield, a player could Switch Teleport themselves into a large group of enemies. Even with Radial Disarm, positioning ones' self in a group of enemies above a players' overall strength is going to yield you a quick and foolish death. Switch Teleport also requires a good view of the enemy, meaning that the Loki's themselves are left out in the open and vulnerable to being shot. Used in tandem with Invisibility, this does help to mitigate incoming damage, however the result is someone's going to notice that they're not in the same hallway they were before, and voila, you've just alerted the enemy.

 

Radial Disarm is a very good ability, it scales throughout content and holds its potency on the field of battle no matter the level. However, its effectiveness depends on how many enemies are disarmed, the nature of the disarm, and is pretty much a one off ability that doesn't affect any enemy units after that. As others have stated, Radial Disarm does remove the ranged component of most enemy factions, but it does not remove their per hit damage, as their melee weaponry still retains its scaling power throughout content. Thus, players' disarming against foes around their overall strength would see a regular battle commence, you go below that, and you're going to be comfortable in that situation. However, disarming enemies above a players' overall strength can net you a quick death if that sick stick finds its way to your head.

 

I guess the core issue players' have is that disarmed enemies don't retain their ranged potency, since all enemies disarmed have batons and not much else. If that is the case, then equip enemy units with something more than just a baton, not for Loki's sake, but for the sake of expanding these enemy mechanics and giving them more tools to use on the battlefield that aren't cheap like the Nullifiers and Ancient Healers are.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Once again. Evry frame except a propperly buildet valkyr is squishy in highlvl content. This argument is invalid, especially if that's gonna be the only statement to show how perfectly balanced loki is.

You could just as well call a hysteria valkyr squishy!

 

lolwut? Are you really trying to invalidate someone's argument by bringing up high-end content? Even in high-end content, Loki is squishier than most. When Loki gets to the point where one bullet oneshots him, most of the others can still take a few more. When you get to the point where outright invulnerability is needed, abilities like MPrime become a godsend while abilities like RD (with or without IRD) are only useful so long as the Loki is spamming the ability every few seconds so that you don't have to worry about newly spawned enemies shooting you. Loki's RD is nigh-hard countered by the infested and the nullifier crewman (pretty sure the manic grineer gives zero fucks about RD too). One thing I've noticed about all these 'loki op, pls nerf' arguments is that the nerf-herders always assume that the Loki is being paired with properly tiered weaponry. This is likely because they know when he doesn't have good enough weapons, he is either A) #*($%%@. or B) in for a long and boring meleefest.

 

If Loki makes it impossible to lose any mission, why do so many super high-end solo videos not include him? Is Limbo OP too? What about Nova? And Vauban? Where do you draw the line between OP and reasonably useful and why?

[FelisImpurrator]

*snip*

Some of Loki's abilities could use tweaking overall, but right now I'm just here to say your last paragraph gave me an idea.

 

What if, within a certain constrained variety, enemies were given random weapons by RD? Weapons that are less functional utility-wise than the existing ones, even if their damage scales the same way. A Heavy Gunner firing the equivalent of a Lato is still a ranged threat, but far less so than she would be with a Gorgon in hand, simply because those deadly spool-ups no longer exist. You could mix it up even more and say that placing an unfamiliar weapon in the enemy's hands would adversely affect their competency with it - less accurate, lower fire rate, slower reload, or any combination of those things. An assault rifle is still deadly in the hands of someone not trained to use it, but less so than it is for someone who trained with the weapons. So you could end up with butchers and powerfists wielding pistols, or bombards with the classic prod, or a bunch of lancers with the equivalent of a bargain-basement Mk1-Braton. Pretty much always slower and weaker than the original weapons, but with more variety and retention of ranged ability, as opposed to turning the entire battlefield into a bunch of idiots with tiny sticks suicide-charging a gun-toting space wizard.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Uh, no, that doesn't cut it. Your point is hinging solely on higher level content in this post. Throughout all content needs to be looked at, not just one point of it.

Loki is a low survive ability Frame. But that isn't the only balancing point for his powers. All his abilities do not do damage, that is also another trade off.

Decoy has a set HP and timer, and it draws enemy aggro. Thus, in content equal to the players' overall strength, it would perform optimally. In content lower than player strength, this ability performs well as a sustainable tool in most any situation requiring aggro control. In content higher than the players' overall strength, it works only as a slight distraction, as enemy DPS would wipe it the moment it raises that lato into the sky.

Invisibility is an ability that also has its benefits and detriments. Although this does allow for easier stealth play, players' bumping into enemy units can still alert enemy units. Also, if you fire a weapon that is not innately silenced or modded for silence (I dare someone to say they have credible evidence that a large portion of the community uses Hush), enemy units will be alerted to your position and fire at said position. With changes to enemy AI accuracy by [DE]Glen and others, their potency at accuracy is varied depending on unit and distance, but that does not discount that players are able to be hit. Thus is another balancing point of Invisibility, you are rendered Invisible, but you are not invulnerable. Invisible or not, enemy units can still hit and hurt you, and in content above the players' overall strength, it can kill you quite easily with Loki's low survive ability stats.

No matter the level of content, a Valkyr in Hysteria cannot be killed, and thus is not squishy, and cannot be claimed to be squishy.

Switch Teleport is a very useful tool for positioning, but it also opens up the player to some very dangerous situations. If used without a good feel for the current state of the battlefield, a player could Switch Teleport themselves into a large group of enemies. Even with Radial Disarm, positioning ones' self in a group of enemies above a players' overall strength is going to yield you a quick and foolish death. Switch Teleport also requires a good view of the enemy, meaning that the Loki's themselves are left out in the open and vulnerable to being shot. Used in tandem with Invisibility, this does help to mitigate incoming damage, however the result is someone's going to notice that they're not in the same hallway they were before, and voila, you've just alerted the enemy.

Radial Disarm is a very good ability, it scales throughout content and holds its potency on the field of battle no matter the level. However, its effectiveness depends on how many enemies are disarmed, the nature of the disarm, and is pretty much a one off ability that doesn't affect any enemy units after that. As others have stated, Radial Disarm does remove the ranged component of most enemy factions, but it does not remove their per hit damage, as their melee weaponry still retains its scaling power throughout content. Thus, players' disarming against foes around their overall strength would see a regular battle commence, you go below that, and you're going to be comfortable in that situation. However, disarming enemies above a players' overall strength can net you a quick death if that sick stick finds its way to your head.

I guess the core issue players' have is that disarmed enemies don't retain their ranged potency, since all enemies disarmed have batons and not much else. If that is the case, then equip enemy units with something more than just a baton, not for Loki's sake, but for the sake of expanding these enemy mechanics and giving them more tools to use on the battlefield that aren't cheap like the Nullifiers and Ancient Healers are.

...except the id aug, what makes enemys fight themselfes, enemys with scaling dmg, on a set what allows both, stealth and id since id needs duration. On a spamable execution.

Vauban would be a example for a CC playstyle, without the need for strength on his set, without a ability that offers absolute protection.

Same for nova. Key role as CC frame. Needs max range, duration AND balanced strength to even work as CC frame. Just as defenseless.

Nyx would be a example for the exact same enemy controll kit only with massive limitations on the use.

How exactly would a hysteria valkyr deal approtiate damage? Beein caught in a flawed melee mode. And you DEFINITLY die since a prior buff was reverted recently: the enemy marker.

Zephyr has a protection skill that buffs her damage but turbulence is a weak protection against rockets and hitscan weapons.

Face it, there is not a single frame out there that gets that much effect, in this kind of limitless execution with that quantity of mods. Pack max range, max efficiency, 2 duration mods and id and you get a stronger set then any other frame, including 2 working totall defense abilitys, including a spamable, scaling, kickass CC+DPS ability. No choice, no tradeoff whatsoever, far away from beein squishy, weak or balanced.

Enemys that are unable to target you won't hit you with a batton ya know. Cause thats what invisibility is in the end, allerted or not. You CAN'T become a target!!! The only way to even die is by stray bullets, what's simply not a serious factor with a ability that disarms them (!)permanently.

Edited July 25, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[SquirmyBurrito]

...except the id aug, what makes enemys fight themselfes, enemys with scaling dmg, on a set what allows both, stealth and id since id needs duration. On a spamable execution.

Vauban would be a example for a similar CC playstyle, without the need for strength on his set, without a ability that offers absolute protection.

Nyx would be a example for the exact same enemy controll kit only with massive limitations on the use.

How exactly would a hysteria valkyr deal approtiate damage? Beein caught in a flawed melee mode.

Zephyr has a protection skill that buffs her damage but turbulence is a weak protection against rockets and hitscan weapons.

Face it, there is not a single frame out there that gets that much effect, in this kind of limitless execution with that quantity of mods. Pack max range, max efficiency, 2 duration mods and id and you get a stronger set then any other frame, including 2 working totall defense abilitys, including a spamable, scaling, kickass CC ability. No choice, no tradeoff whatsoever, far away from beein squishy, weak or balanced.

Enemys that are unable to target you won't hit you with a batton ya know. Cause thats what invisibility is in the end, allerted or not. You CAN'T become a target!!! The only way to even die is by stray bullets, what's simply not a serious factor with a ability that disarms them permanently.

 

Which means the problem is with IRD, not Loki. Most IRD builds that I have seen have low (relative to his potential max) duration on their invisibility.

 

Vauban's Vortex  (and/or bastille's augment) give him nigh-invulnerability by simply gimping the enemies.

 

IIRC some of Nyx's weaknesses regarding Chaos were removed via an augment. 

 

Hysteria, unlike Loki, comes with inherent damage dealing capabilities. Outside RD on infested, Loki has none.

 

IIRC Zephyr's turbulence skill was buffed and now has little/no real downside.

 

Limbo? Complete invulnerability with the press of a button. When paired with an energy siphon aura his energy regens while in the rift (overpowering the cost to maintain the ability), can bring single targets into the rift with him (immediately knocking them down giving him 3-4 seconds to deal uncontested damage against them, after that point he can simply return them to the normal plane and repeat. IIRC it deals damage, so he can just repeatedly do that if he wanted to. Alternatively he can simply cast his ult on an area, shoot anyone who enters (while in the rift himself and located elsewhere), and then press 4 again to make his previously placed bubble explode. Thus removing any chance of them attacking him when he doesn't want them to. Loki can be attacked by melee enemies, Limbo cannot unless he chooses to let them.

 

Excal can spam RB which makes enemies truly useless.

 

Chroma has an ult that, when deployed, roars and stuns everyone within a ~50m radius, that isn't affected by range mods. This can be spammed. 

 

Volt has a shield that outright no-sells enemy damage while buffing his in addition to a highly spammable first skill that insta-stuns crowds of enemies.

 

Nova can slow entire maps to a crawl while buffing her damage against them.

 

Banshee's silence can be used to stun enemies as they get in-range, giving you ample time to kill them and duck back into cover (requires more effort than many of the other options listed).

 

Ember's fire fright augment allows you to deny enemies the ability to enter certain areas, allowing you to set up safe havens whenever you want (in addition to knocking enemies on their ! when cast).

 

Saryn is saryn.

 

Ash can become invulnerable while teleporting around and inflicting high amounts of damage in addition to also being able to turn invisible (with a short radial stun).

 

Either you're ignoring the other frames' capabilities or you really need to read the wiki. I dropped this game a few months ago (now only log on to avoid getting kicked from my clan) and I still remember this S#&$.

 

Edit: Oh and how could I forget Mirage with her insanely long-range LoS-less blind.

Edited July 25, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Which means the problem is with IRD, not Loki. Most IRD builds that I have seen have low (relative to his potential max) duration on their invisibility.

Vauban's Vortex (and/or bastille's augment) give him nigh-invulnerability by simply gimping the enemies.

IIRC some of Nyx's weaknesses regarding Chaos were removed via an augment.

Hysteria, unlike Loki, comes with inherent damage dealing capabilities. Outside RD on infested, Loki has none.

IIRC Zephyr's turbulence skill was buffed and now has little/no real downside.

Limbo? Complete invulnerability with the press of a button. When paired with an energy siphon aura his energy regens while in the rift (overpowering the cost to maintain the ability), can bring single targets into the rift with him (immediately knocking them down giving him 3-4 seconds to deal uncontested damage against them, after that point he can simply return them to the normal plane and repeat. IIRC it deals damage, so he can just repeatedly do that if he wanted to. Alternatively he can simply cast his ult on an area, shoot anyone who enters (while in the rift himself and located elsewhere), and then press 4 again to make his previously placed bubble explode. Thus removing any chance of them attacking him when he doesn't want them to. Loki can be attacked by melee enemies, Limbo cannot unless he chooses to let them.

Excal can spam RB which makes enemies truly useless.

Chroma has an ult that, when deployed, roars and stuns everyone within a ~50m radius, that isn't affected by range mods. This can be spammed.

Volt has a shield that outright no-sells enemy damage while buffing his in addition to a highly spammable first skill that insta-stuns crowds of enemies.

Nova can slow entire maps to a crawl while buffing her damage against them.

Banshee's silence can be used to stun enemies as they get in-range, giving you ample time to kill them and duck back into cover (requires more effort than many of the other options listed).

Ember's fire fright augment allows you to deny enemies the ability to enter certain areas, allowing you to set up safe havens whenever you want (in addition to knocking enemies on their ! when cast).

Saryn is saryn.

Ash can become invulnerable while teleporting around and inflicting high amounts of damage in addition to also being able to turn invisible (with a short radial stun).

Either you're ignoring the other frames' capabilities or you really need to read the wiki. I dropped this game a few months ago (now only log on to avoid getting kicked from my clan) and I still remember this S#&$.

Edit: Oh and how could I forget Mirage with her insanely long-range LoS-less blind.

Vauban: try a playstyle that doesn't consist of looking into a vortex placed in a corridor. Same with your ember example.

Nyx: needs a small room to even work on the aug. Shrinks half the duration, vanishs and isn't recastable till the duration runs out OR all affected enemys die. Gl with the respawn.

Limbo: seperate realm. You can't die but you can't attack eather. His cataclysm is just as much curse as it is a blessing since it denies bullets. Sure you can stay in your defensive mode but you have no actuall function while doing so. The option to this is simply leaving the game.

Banshee: pretty strong frame, i give you that but the silence is flawed af concerning enemys outside the range.

Ash: i main that one. building on duration more or less kills your bs potential. The radial stun isn't even the idea behind the smokebomb. It resets stealth multipliers, meaning a small melee-dmg burst before anything else. Not CC. The best way to play him is making use of arcane trickery. You need 20x arcane trickery to get somewhat of a result. Same potential but earned and you get similar results on any frame if you slam 20 arcanes on them.

Volt: rly? Gives you a melee buff while you're actually unable to use it. Both shock and overload work on electric proccs you can't rly varry, could need duration influence. The shield was nerved a long time ago. It actually allowed range influence at some point. It could just as well allow strength influence. That one has a very high potential but too many constants to rly allow actuall builds. He is simply a support frame as he is. Far from beein strong or even close to a keyrole.

Chroma: just building that one. Thats the one frame i can't rly relate to, seems to consume a LOT energy tho.

Nova: slow doesn't mean protection. And you build a entire mod-selection for a single ability. Not to mention that the best result is in conflict with most games.

Saryn is saryn. But same for her: entire build. One ability. While you trade dmg for protection. She has a overpowered nuke but is the first frame to die while using it.

Excal: the new eb playstyle is recommendet to be played on -duration. Rb has duration influence. That is a if not THE massive difference to lokis rd. +The broken LoS prototype. (Still waiting for the update....)

Mirage is a excellent example. You could still say that she has somewhat weaker defense and less dmg potential then mindcontrolled units give but thats just bs. She is probably pretty close to loki. Pretty new tho and definitly not ignored and defendet for years. How about we leave that topic for another day?...

I'm definitly not ignoring the potential of the other frames. I consider it and NO other frame gets that much effect, on a complete build that supports the whole kit, with that much dmg+cc potential AND flawless protection, without limitations on that power efficiency.

Loki is far above any alternative. He is the definition of beein overpowered as he is now.

Edited July 25, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[NicolAmalfi8]

Yes, Loki is fragile.

 

Yes, Loki's abilities do not inflict damage. (Actually not true because Radial Disarm deals 500 damage, which is higher than the initial blast of Ember's World on Fire...but anyway, as no one mod for strength, I'll pretend it doesn't exist.)

 

Yes, his skills should give him some kind of compensation for his fragility and non-damage oriented kits.

 

However, it doesn't mean his abilities could have no limits.

 

A forever large distance radial disarming effect that can be re-casted, there is no way people should be defending it.

 

"The enemies can still hit you with the stick scaling with their level of damage, it is balanced"

 

So I want to ask: what is your limit? Until what point of an ability would you consider it OP? Enemies without any weapon? They just stand there to let you kill them?  

 

Tenno are moving much much faster than our enemies, melee enemies aren't much of a threat. Making them forever meleeing is just deleting their differences. If it is allowed to continue to exist in the game, we don't need to introduce new enemies. Becasue they would become all the same anyway, all you need to do is to bring a loki and spam 4. Bam, no more enemies varieties. Have fun.

 

I am fine with disarm, but it should have a time period, not forever, not no-limit recasting . Irradiating disarm is just ridiculous building on ridiculous.

 

I like Loki, that's why I hope it to be a more intelligent frame, not another boring ult-spamming noob frame. I understand why many Loki lovers defend him. Yet, I'd suggest, if you really like him as an intelligent trickster, open your eyes and see the truth. This is not right.

[AlphaHorseman]

...except the id aug, what makes enemys fight themselfes, enemys with scaling dmg, on a set what allows both, stealth and id since id needs duration. On a spamable execution.

Vauban would be a example for a CC playstyle, without the need for strength on his set, without a ability that offers absolute protection.

Same for nova. Key role as CC frame. Needs max range, duration AND balanced strength to even work as CC frame. Just as defenseless.

Nyx would be a example for the exact same enemy controll kit only with massive limitations on the use.

How exactly would a hysteria valkyr deal approtiate damage? Beein caught in a flawed melee mode. And you DEFINITLY die since a prior buff was reverted recently: the enemy marker.

Zephyr has a protection skill that buffs her damage but turbulence is a weak protection against rockets and hitscan weapons.

Face it, there is not a single frame out there that gets that much effect, in this kind of limitless execution with that quantity of mods. Pack max range, max efficiency, 2 duration mods and id and you get a stronger set then any other frame, including 2 working totall defense abilitys, including a spamable, scaling, kickass CC+DPS ability. No choice, no tradeoff whatsoever, far away from beein squishy, weak or balanced.

Enemys that are unable to target you won't hit you with a batton ya know. Cause thats what invisibility is in the end, allerted or not. You CAN'T become a target!!! The only way to even die is by stray bullets, what's simply not a serious factor with a ability that disarms them (!)permanently.

An augment does not dictate that a Frame is unbalanced. Said augment is optional, and not all players have them. You cannot balance a Frame and accuse it of being overpowered by an augment, that argument is invalid. If there is a problem with the augment, then look at the augment, same thing as Greedy Pull. Not to mention that enemies can still hit you and target you, it does not make you untargetable.

 

Vauban is a really good CC frame, however Loki's abilities do not grant him "absolute protection", you can still be hit in invisibility, enemies can still hit you and target you, even under the affects of Irradiating Disarm.

 

Yes, Nova is a good Frame, very well balanced I'd say. Her fourth ability is extremely powerful, and thus is tied to many different aspects to ensure moddability and diversity in her build styles (Slova, Rush Nova, etc.)

 

What limitations on Nyx are you referring to? Other than duration timers, her kit is very well balanced and suits many-a-play-style, although Psychic Bolts I'd say needs some work.

 

I did not say Hysteria Valkyrs dealt appropriate damage, you called her squishy, I pointed out why that was completely false. The damage aspect of Hysteria could use some tuning up, as it's one of the areas of which Hysteria lacks scale ability. I agree with you on that point.

 

Yes, Turbulence isn't the end-all defensive solution.

 

I'm sorry, but what are you getting at with bringing in these red herring Frame examples?

 

Nope, wrong again. Decoy and Invisibility go hand in hand as abilities that require duration. Hence why people call that build the "Perma-Invis" Loki build, extended duration sacrifices range, and in more specialized cases, efficiency as well. Switch Teleport and Radial Disarm also go hand in hand, as with a high efficiency and range build, you can Teleport to targets farther away and disarm a larger amount of enemies. There is no total defense, that statement is false. Enemies can still hit you while invisible, it does not render you invulnerable, same goes for Radial Disarming enemies.

 

You can still be hit and killed while Invisible. As I stated earlier, you are not invulnerable. Eximus unit affects will still hit you, bullets can still hit you if you aren't careful, aoe abilities can still hit you. You are still vulnerable.

 

The issue is that when you Disarm enemies, they just have Batons, no? Well then the solution is simple, give enemy units primary, secondary, and melee weapons. Thus, they have more tools to use on the battlefield, and Disarming them isn't going to be the end-all solution in some cases, as enemy units would have melee weapons, replacing their batons.

 

Yes, Loki is fragile.

 

Yes, Loki's abilities do not inflict damage. (Actually not true because Radial Disarm deals 500 damage, which is higher than the initial blast of Ember's World on Fire...but anyway, as no one mod for strength, I'll pretend it doesn't exist.)

 

Yes, his skills should give him some kind of compensation for his fragility and non-damage oriented kits.

 

However, it doesn't mean his abilities could have no limits.

 

A forever large distance radial disarming effect that can be re-casted, there is no way people should be defending it.

 

"The enemies can still hit you with the stick scaling with their level of damage, it is balanced"

 

So I want to ask: what is your limit? Until what point of an ability would you consider it OP? Enemies without any weapon? They just stand there to let you kill them?  

 

Tenno are moving much much faster than our enemies, melee enemies aren't much of a threat. Making them forever meleeing is just deleting their differences. If it is allowed to continue to exist in the game, we don't need to introduce new enemies. Becasue they would become all the same anyway, all you need to do is to bring a loki and spam 4. Bam, no more enemies varieties. Have fun.

 

I am fine with disarm, but it should have a time period, not forever, not no-limit recasting . Irradiating disarm is just ridiculous building on ridiculous.

 

I like Loki, that's why I hope it to be a more intelligent frame, not another boring ult-spamming noob frame. I understand why many Loki lovers defend him. Yet, I'd suggest, if you really like him as an intelligent trickster, open your eyes and see the truth. This is not right.

...So your argument is to put a timer on it? You realize that it'll just make people use Radial Disarm more because there's a timer on it? They'll be poised to disarm enemies again and again if they don't eliminate them in that time window, and thus you just created more spamming of the ability, rather than reduced it.

 

The solution isn't to nerf Loki, it's to make changes to our enemy units and grant them comparable melee weaponry and secondaries that are appropriate to their roles on the battlefield. Things like this:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-rework-all-the-enemies-grineer-lancer/

 

And thus, we don't have to nerf a Frame that doesn't deserve a nerf, because now our enemies actually are comparable and strong, even with melee weapons equipped.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

An augment does not dictate that a Frame is unbalanced. Said augment is optional, and not all players have them. You cannot balance a Frame and accuse it of being overpowered by an augment, that argument is invalid. If there is a problem with the augment, then look at the augment, same thing as Greedy Pull. Not to mention that enemies can still hit you and target you, it does not make you untargetable.

Vauban is a really good CC frame, however Loki's abilities do not grant him "absolute protection", you can still be hit in invisibility, enemies can still hit you and target you, even under the affects of Irradiating Disarm.

Yes, Nova is a good Frame, very well balanced I'd say. Her fourth ability is extremely powerful, and thus is tied to many different aspects to ensure moddability and diversity in her build styles (Slova, Rush Nova, etc.)

What limitations on Nyx are you referring to? Other than duration timers, her kit is very well balanced and suits many-a-play-style, although Psychic Bolts I'd say needs some work.

I did not say Hysteria Valkyrs dealt appropriate damage, you called her squishy, I pointed out why that was completely false. The damage aspect of Hysteria could use some tuning up, as it's one of the areas of which Hysteria lacks scale ability. I agree with you on that point.

Yes, Turbulence isn't the end-all defensive solution.

I'm sorry, but what are you getting at with bringing in these red herring Frame examples?

Nope, wrong again. Decoy and Invisibility go hand in hand as abilities that require duration. Hence why people call that build the "Perma-Invis" Loki build, extended duration sacrifices range, and in more specialized cases, efficiency as well. Switch Teleport and Radial Disarm also go hand in hand, as with a high efficiency and range build, you can Teleport to targets farther away and disarm a larger amount of enemies. There is no total defense, that statement is false. Enemies can still hit you while invisible, it does not render you invulnerable, same goes for Radial Disarming enemies.

You can still be hit and killed while Invisible. As I stated earlier, you are not invulnerable. Eximus unit affects will still hit you, bullets can still hit you if you aren't careful, aoe abilities can still hit you. You are still vulnerable.

The issue is that when you Disarm enemies, they just have Batons, no? Well then the solution is simple, give enemy units primary, secondary, and melee weapons. Thus, they have more tools to use on the battlefield, and Disarming them isn't going to be the end-all solution in some cases, as enemy units would have melee weapons, replacing their batons.

...So your argument is to put a timer on it? You realize that it'll just make people use Radial Disarm more because there's a timer on it? They'll be poised to disarm enemies again and again if they don't eliminate them in that time window, and thus you just created more spamming of the ability, rather than reduced it.

The solution isn't to nerf Loki, it's to make changes to our enemy units and grant them comparable melee weaponry and secondaries that are appropriate to their roles on the battlefield. Things like this:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-rework-all-the-enemies-grineer-lancer/

And thus, we don't have to nerf a Frame that doesn't deserve a nerf, because now our enemies actually are comparable and strong, even with melee weapons equipped.

You can't recast nyx chaos for the duration or as long as a single unit is still affected. Thats quite the limitation. Chaos and ID are potentially the strongest damage abilitys in the game, turning the scaling dmg of the enemys against them. The difference is the fact that you're able to spam ID.

And mate, complaining over something is a personal oppinion. Compare the same thing to a base or something similar and you're able to state facts. Fact is as mentioned a couple times: loki too strong, compared to any other frame in therms of

*effect

*Kit

*Possible synergy with a single loadout(no tradeoff on a ID build. The option to deal massive CC+dmg while keeping the defense is quite the exclusive for loki)

*Efficiency (no duration on RD. You need to recast any other ability to keep the effect you aim for.)

Edited July 25, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Having actually played Loki, he doesn't need a nerf.  The only thing that needs a nerf currently is peacemaker. (Hysteria needs a rework.)

[GuyOnCrack]

Always someone wanting to ruin a frame or weapon. Balance is overrated, there needs to be very powerful weapons and frames to combat the ever increasingly difficult enemies they keep adding in.

 

"Also, if it was designed around being a co-op game, then why even have a solo mode? Shouldn't solo not even be an option?"

 

You surely cannot be that ignorant....right?

I think my point isn't clear enough.

 

DON'T BALANCE THE GAME FOR ONLY CO-OP OR ONLY SOLO, FIND THE BALANCE IN THE BALANCE.

 

Someone's gonna get shafted, but most of the shafting can be avoided.

 

Also balance is still needed in a PvE game. More so the game doesn't get too easy or so some frames or guns are outright better than other guns or frames.

Edited July 25, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[----Fenrir----]

You can't recast nyx chaos for the duration or as long as a single unit is still affected. Thats quite the limitation.

 

Not really, with mods you can get the duration of Chaos down to 9 seconds making it spammable as well. Loki can't just nonstop spam it either, he has to wait 5 seconds after using RD until he can use it again.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Not really, with mods you can get the duration of Chaos down to 9 seconds making it spammable as well. Loki can't just nonstop spam it either, he has to wait 5 seconds after using RD until he can use it again.

My....

You can just as well push the durarion of ID, getting more invisibility duration and STILL spam it.

[AlphaHorseman]

You can't recast nyx chaos for the duration or as long as a single unit is still affected. Thats quite the limitation. Chaos and ID are potentially the strongest damage abilitys in the game, turning the scaling dmg of the enemys against them. The difference is the fact that you're able to spam ID.

And mate, complaining over something is a personal oppinion. Compare the same thing to a base or something similar and you're able to state facts. Fact is as mentioned a couple times: loki too strong, compared to any other frame in therms of

*effect

*Kit

*Possible synergy with a single loadout(no tradeoff on a ID build. The option to deal massive CC+dmg while keeping the defense is quite the exclusive for loki)

*Efficiency (no duration on RD. You need to recast any other ability to keep the effect you aim for.)

Yes, that's the only limitation on Chaos that keeps it from being more so scale able, and I do hope DE addresses it. Again, you are having an issue with an augment, not the base power itself.

 

You are complaining that Loki is too strong, that is an opinion, not a fact. I gave you the facts about his mechanical ability characteristics, they are not opinions, those are the actual mechanical characteristics of Loki's kit.

 

Loki's kit does not deal damage, it is purely a CC kit with Radial Disarm dealing solely 500 damage. Loki has no inherently defensive abilities outside of Invisibility, and that only offers him visual defense, it does not stop him from being affected by bullets, by Eximus auras, by enemy AoE abilities, nor by Nullifier Bubbles.

 

There is nothing wrong with Loki's kit being synergetic and flexible, all frames should strive to have that kind of balance.

Edited July 25, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[SquirmyBurrito]

Vauban: try a playstyle that doesn't consist of looking into a vortex placed in a corridor. Same with your ember example.

Nyx: needs a small room to even work on the aug. Shrinks half the duration, vanishs and isn't recastable till the duration runs out OR all affected enemys die. Gl with the respawn.

Limbo: seperate realm. You can't die but you can't attack eather. His cataclysm is just as much curse as it is a blessing since it denies bullets. Sure you can stay in your defensive mode but you have no actuall function while doing so. The option to this is simply leaving the game.

Banshee: pretty strong frame, i give you that but the silence is flawed af concerning enemys outside the range.

Ash: i main that one. building on duration more or less kills your bs potential. The radial stun isn't even the idea behind the smokebomb. It resets stealth multipliers, meaning a small melee-dmg burst before anything else. Not CC. The best way to play him is making use of arcane trickery. You need 20x arcane trickery to get somewhat of a result. Same potential but earned and you get similar results on any frame if you slam 20 arcanes on them.

Volt: rly? Gives you a melee buff while you're actually unable to use it. Both shock and overload work on electric proccs you can't rly varry, could need duration influence. The shield was nerved a long time ago. It actually allowed range influence at some point. It could just as well allow strength influence. That one has a very high potential but too many constants to rly allow actuall builds. He is simply a support frame as he is. Far from beein strong or even close to a keyrole.

Chroma: just building that one. Thats the one frame i can't rly relate to, seems to consume a LOT energy tho.

Nova: slow doesn't mean protection. And you build a entire mod-selection for a single ability. Not to mention that the best result is in conflict with most games.

Saryn is saryn. But same for her: entire build. One ability. While you trade dmg for protection. She has a overpowered nuke but is the first frame to die while using it.

Excal: the new eb playstyle is recommendet to be played on -duration. Rb has duration influence. That is a if not THE massive difference to lokis rd. +The broken LoS prototype. (Still waiting for the update....)

Mirage is a excellent example. You could still say that she has somewhat weaker defense and less dmg potential then mindcontrolled units give but thats just bs. She is probably pretty close to loki. Pretty new tho and definitly not ignored and defendet for years. How about we leave that topic for another day?...

I'm definitly not ignoring the potential of the other frames. I consider it and NO other frame gets that much effect, on a complete build that supports the whole kit, with that much dmg+cc potential AND flawless protection, without limitations on that power efficiency.

Loki is far above any alternative. He is the definition of beein overpowered as he is now.

 

-Why would I try an alternate playstyle when the one I stated removes all/most difficulty from the game barring specific enemy types? Same goes for Ember.

 

-Or you can just stack range mods. Your issue seems to be trying for long duration when you should actually be going for relatively low duration.

 

-Good thing you can banish enemies to and from your plane whenever you want. You can shoot into cataclysm from outside it if you are in the rift. Meaning you can toss it in front of a door and then hide behind something further away and occasionally pop out of cover and shoot enemies as they enter it. When they get close enough to shoot accurately, they're no longer in the bubble and therefore can't hurt you. Simple Limbo strats.

 

-Stack range mods and outside the largest and most open maps, you wont have a problem.

 

-Only if you go for high duration. Go for low-mid duration and you're Bladestorm is still fine while you retain the ability to turn invisible. Alternatively you can give smokescreen the finger and just go pure bladestorm (since you're invulnerable during it anyway). Stealth multipliers aren't something I concern myself with unless I'm playing a Banshee. 

 

-wut? Mate, I'm talking about his electric shield. It is purely duration based and therefore blocks everything except explosive damage (stand back and you completely negate that). IIRC Shock is a guaranteed electric proc. Overload is to be ignored at all times. If you don't think Volt's defensive and CC capabilities are strong, you are in dire need of education regarding his abilities.

 

-Max efficiency, no longer consumes much energy.

 

-Slow means a massive decrease in your enemies effective DPS and a huge decrease in their ability to actually hit you. Throw in her augments and you could even use AMD's absorbing augment to tank damage for you.

 

-Actually, two to three of her abilities are worth using. Her molt augment turns her into a tank.

 

-Max efficiency does not have to equate to ridiculously low duration.

 

-Unlike Loki, she can blind an entire map (barring the biggest tilesets), deal high damage to them, increase her DPS, decrease her chances of being hit, and buff her EHP all without needing another frame to help out.

 

You clearly are. Loki's potential is far from flawless, and his CC on everything except switch teleport is only soft CC. Enemies can still beat the S#&$ out of you if you get too close (or if they shoot you before you press 4 again). He has the same power efficiency limits that everyone else has (other than trinity who can make her own energy).

 

No and no. Loki Master Race, sure, but he isn't the best alternative for everything.

[BlackCoMerc]

There are some misconceptions about Loki. First, that Loki is himself powerful. This simply is not true. Secondly, that that power is easy to come by. It is not; unlike so many other frames - Rhino, I'm looking at you here, and Nova, too - simply maxing Loki does not make him good. Or even especially useful. There are barriers to entry for a really useful Loki that I think people fail to consider when bemoaning his perceived power level.

 

Because as stated, Loki is not powerful. What he is, is very good at two distinct things: Crowd control and evasion. Is this powerful? Remember, this is not Saryn; Loki can take away guns and even confuse enemies (more on that in a bit) time and again - so long as he has energy.Likewise, with Invisibility: he needs energy to fuel the fire. But Loki's CC does not kill enemies. Eventually, when the energy runs low - and that will take a while, provided you are at max efficiency - you're going to have to either run away or deal with them. And unlike so many other Ultimates out there, you have to use your weapons, your play skill, to do it. 

 

TL;DR - Disarm: It severely gimps enemies, especially at max efficiency, but it does not kill them for you. That you have to do yourself at some point.

 

And the same thing goes for Invisibility. Sure, Loki can maintain it for entire missions. At maximum efficiency, Energy Siphon alone is sufficient for this trick. At maximum energy efficiency. Notice that clause again. What people fail to realize though is this: Invisibility is Loki's Iron Skin. This is his tank, and its the only one he has. The only one. If you're Rhino, or even your Nova, takes a shot or two, chances are you wont be dead yet. The same cannot be said of Loki, who almost always needs energy set aside for Evasion tactics because of a total lack of a Tank.

 

TL;DR - Invisibility: Its only good at max efficiency, and in the late game, letting it lapse, even for a second too long, means instant death.

 

What folks fail to understand is this: Loki has severe drawbacks one must suffer, in order to make him useful. Where some frames - a lot of frames - become useful the minute they reach Rank 30, this simply is not true of Loki (or Nyx, for that matter). Loki ( and Nyx) virtually REQUIRE Corrupted Mods in order to be truly useful contributors to a team, not to mention at all viable for solo play. And Corrupted mods are hard to come by. 

 

Corrupted mods require 4 players, all with good frames and good weapons and the time to play together. Of course this can be shortcut by trading Plat. But that is not a cheap option either, nor a guarantee. Not everyone has a surplus of these mods to sell. 

 

Nor are Corrupted Mods the only barrier to a useful Loki. Even once you have them, you STILL cant have everything. You can have a Loki with permanent Invisibility, alright - but he wont be able to max out Range for Disarm. And maxing Range for Disarm means shorter duration for Invisibility. Just as with the barrier that is the necessity of Corrupted mods, trade offs in his load out limit Loki's effectiveness to a degree few other frames experience or suffer from. And with each limitation, the player piloting Loki is forced micromanage their play sessions and keep a constant watch on the action as well as ability times, enemies who still have weapons, etc. 

 

TL;DR - A truly useful Loki is neither easy to obtain nor simple to pilot. He must be Maxed. He needs Energy Siphon - hard to get. He virtually requires Corrupted mods - Fleeting Expertise, Overextended AND Narrow Minded - for truly useful team builds. This is no easy feat. And once you have all of these things in place, you're still watching enemies for guns you have not disarmed, the Invisibility countdown timer, the action and threats on your screen and moving along the mission route - all at the same time. Neither obtaining, nor building nor even piloting a truly useful, contributory Loki is easy, and this is something players should consider before crying out for a Nerf to this wondrously synergistic, tactical frame. 

 

One more thing: The problem isnt Saryn. Or Mesa. Or Loki.

 

The problem is that Energy Efficiency is allowed to apply to Ultimates to the same degree it does less powerful abilities. Mesa and Loki are not the problem; Streamline + Fleeting Expertise is.

[climatiseur]

 

 

...So your argument is to put a timer on it? You realize that it'll just make people use Radial Disarm more because there's a timer on it? They'll be poised to disarm enemies again and again if they don't eliminate them in that time window, and thus you just created more spamming of the ability, rather than reduced it.

 

The solution isn't to nerf Loki, it's to make changes to our enemy units and grant them comparable melee weaponry and secondaries that are appropriate to their roles on the battlefield. Things like this:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-rework-all-the-enemies-grineer-lancer/

 

And thus, we don't have to nerf a Frame that doesn't deserve a nerf, because now our enemies actually are comparable and strong, even with melee weapons equipped.

"I am fine with disarm, but it should have a time period, not forever, not no-limit recasting . "

 

His / her point is timer and being non-recastable. 

 

-------

 

A side note, I think the Equinox 's abilities' new mechanic Could be a possible solution to Loki's 4th. Energy drain according to how many enemies are you affecting on the battlefield. It can solve the spam problem (because you need to watch the energy right now) and even it can be recast, at least people would use it in a more thoughtful manner. It all depends on how steep the drain rate is when affected enemies increase.

 

Energy efficiency is of course a core problem. However, some abilities, like this, and I think Peacemaker, as well as Miasma, Exalted blade etc, also has their own fundamental problem that needs to be adjust.

Edited July 26, 2015 by climatiseur