De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[KvotheTheArcane1]

That's what's happening one section over though.

Not on the scale it needs to be. Not the scale that got rhino fixed within like, a month I think. Not the scale that gets S#&$ down quick.

 

Token system would be such a bad idea. For a token system to work the void would have to be totally restructured, in its current form a token system would destroy what little longevity we have, and potentially make the grind even worse. I'm glad they haven't gone for that option yet, it would be a disaster.

 

Overall the grind has gone down, but it's gotten so much wider that it doesn't really feel like it. If this analogy makes any sense, the puddle has gotten shallower but it covers more area now.

 

And yeah, the arcane enhancements are a problem. They suffer from augment-itis, but worse because of how they're acquired. Hopefully as more raids come out the RNG hell on those gets split up.

Uhhh, grind has gone UP. the latest additions have pretty much been pure grind. Archwing? Grind, to get new stuff, to grind that stuff up to max level. most of the latest bosses? Grind. Every single mod? Grind. Primed mods? Holy fuckin crap, S#&$ tons of grind to max one out. And if it isn't grindy, it's time walled. Or both (i.e. Vay Hek. "Cool, you got the coords, now wait like, 12hrs" (iirc)). Very few things have gotten less grindy. "New" void stuff? More places to grind, and trading was not a proper answer unless an economy is part of your game, like EVE. Trading is simply a poor and lazy way to solve the problem.

 

The only thing that's gotten easier honestly is either the stuff tied to quests, or non boss rework frames, due to the 100% drop chance that started forever ago. (like, before the 1yr mark of WF iirc)

 

And you don't even have to do ANYTHING to the void to make a token system work. Add a trader who buys primes for... I dunno, lets call them ducats. (Prolly make the seller a rogue Corpus guy or something, as would be fitting) THEN assign each prime bit a value in these... "ducats", THEN another, higher price to BUY said piece with "ducats", as fitting with said Corpus merchant. Varo Ji'teer sounds like a great name. Lets call him that. This keeps the random drops, but allows a token system that doesn't change anything other than adding a hard cap by allowing you to buy X or Y at a set price in "ducats".

 

And another big thing. Grind IS NOT LONGEVITY. Well, it is, but it's NOT what Warframe needs. It's not what will keep WF going in the long run, it's not real content. It's simply a method of stretching content out. For example, in an RPG, you might go grind for some materials for a new sword, or armor. It's not the main focus of the game, it's simply a way to not just be handing the play progress (if that makes sense). For example, I don't play monster hunter to grind for a material over and over, then when I get it, go "welp, beat the game, now I'm done." No, I go make whatever I wanted with it, and move onto the next big 'un to beat senseless with my new stuff.

[AlphaHorseman]

There's not a lot in OP that facilitates a real discussion or warrants a response. What do you honestly want them to say? "Sorry about that, we'll try to do better in the future"? They've said that before, and in the context of this thread, it wouldn't be worth much.

 

People in this thread are just looking for an excuse to pounce on any and every word a developer might speak and try to hang them with it. It's this sort of attitude that leads to the developers keeping quiet in the first place.

I wasn't just talking about things in the OP, but the entire length and depth of this discussion, which is pretty real and warrants a response, if 17 pages and over 300 upvotes are given.

 

I wouldn't call it an excuse when we've legitimately caught them breaking their word on numerous occasions and putting in some stealth nerfs in the process as well. It wasn't just the Excal RJ change, but the most recent undocumented change to Excal's RB that removes the stealth multiplier, along with other unregistered changes.

[AM-Bunny]

I wasn't just talking about things in the OP, but the entire length and depth of this discussion, which is pretty real and warrants a response, if 17 pages and over 300 upvotes are given.

 

I wouldn't call it an excuse when we've legitimately caught them breaking their word on numerous occasions and putting in some stealth nerfs in the process as well. It wasn't just the Excal RJ change, but the most recent undocumented change to Excal's RB that removes the stealth multiplier, along with other unregistered changes.

 

In a recent devstream, Rebecca proposed a list of topics discussed in every stream so it would be more convenient to remember/track progress of each one over time. Scott was strongly against the idea, because he enjoyed the "open floor" feeling of devstreams. Speaking their minds freely and brainstorming live in front of their fans is what the devstreams are about, and the proposed list would cause the devs to speak more apprehensively since they would feel "locked in" to whatever they mention.

 

I largely agree with Scott, but despite this, we still see all these topics popping up, citing things that may have been mentioned in passing, or hypothetically in a devstream, saying "DE broke their promise", "tired of being lied to", etc. This leads the devs to be more reserved in what they reveal or discuss and shuts of a channel of communication.

 

Similarly, the community is notoriously poor at receiving nerfs. Regarding the Synoid Gammcor nerf, a proper response might be:

 

"The Synoid Gammacor far outclassed other secondary weapons and set the bar too high for any future secondary weapons to aspire to. This doomed them to be mastery fodder which is not a favourable environment. Although I'm sad to see the weapon nerfed, I'm optimistic about the future options this might allow me to explore."

 

or

 

"While I understand why you chose to nerf the Synoid Gammacor, I feel the nerf was excessive. I would propose alleviating the 7.5x ammo consumption to 2x or 3x, and here's why" (insert dps comparison with other secondaries, etc)

 

These sorts of responses would be guaranteed to be considered more seriously by the devs, and would facilitate healthy communication in the future. Instead of this, the community responded (and continues to) with childish outbursts of incomparable ignorance. Of course seeing this causes the devs to approach nerfs more carefully, even stealthily, because this hostile environment is not desirable.

 

What's my point with all this? We can't stick it all on the devs. The current environment is our fault as much as it's theirs.

[vaugahn]

Uhhh, grind has gone UP. the latest additions have pretty much been pure grind. Archwing? Grind, to get new stuff, to grind that stuff up to max level. most of the latest bosses? Grind. Every single mod? Grind. Primed mods? Holy fuckin crap, S#&$ tons of grind to max one out. And if it isn't grindy, it's time walled. Or both (i.e. Vay Hek. "Cool, you got the coords, now wait like, 12hrs" (iirc)). Very few things have gotten less grindy. "New" void stuff? More places to grind, and trading was not a proper answer unless an economy is part of your game, like EVE. Trading is simply a poor and lazy way to solve the problem.

 

The only thing that's gotten easier honestly is either the stuff tied to quests, or non boss rework frames, due to the 100% drop chance that started forever ago. (like, before the 1yr mark of WF iirc)

 

You're a founder. Remember old-timey resource grind? Remember vay hek keywall? Remember how hard forma were to get? Syndicates? Or like a dozen other things. The grind has gotten easier, there's just more to do.

 

It does still need a lot of work though, especially on fusion cores/mod progression. Really, I think that whole system needs to be scrapped. Especially with primed mods. IMO, mods should gain levels like guns/frames, just with much higher values. Or something like that. The mod system as a whole needs a look, it's probably one of the weakest points in the game right now.

 

And you don't even have to do ANYTHING to the void to make a token system work. Add a trader who buys primes for... I dunno, lets call them ducats. (Prolly make the seller a rogue Corpus guy or something, as would be fitting) THEN assign each prime bit a value in these... "ducats", THEN another, higher price to BUY said piece with "ducats", as fitting with said Corpus merchant. Varo Ji'teer sounds like a great name. Lets call him that. This keeps the random drops, but allows a token system that doesn't change anything other than adding a hard cap by allowing you to buy X or Y at a set price in "ducats".

 

There are a couple things that would happen with a token system:

 

1) the token requirements are set absurdly high, it's faster just to grind. Vets build up a megamassive stock of tokens and get prime stuff the second it hits the game, new and mid-tier players are stuck in grind hell just like now.

 

2) Void drop tables are flooded with garbage, and tokens become the primary method of part acquisition. The grind is just as long as before, only slightly different now.

 

3) some horrible combination of the two, or some BS restriction on tokens that makes them frustrating and/or impractical to use.

 

Seriously, a token system right now would be bad news. Best case scenario, nothing would change as far as required time investment.

 

And another big thing. Grind IS NOT LONGEVITY. Well, it is, but it's NOT what Warframe needs. It's not what will keep WF going in the long run, it's not real content. It's simply a method of stretching content out. For example, in an RPG, you might go grind for some materials for a new sword, or armor. It's not the main focus of the game, it's simply a way to not just be handing the play progress (if that makes sense). For example, I don't play monster hunter to grind for a material over and over, then when I get it, go "welp, beat the game, now I'm done." No, I go make whatever I wanted with it, and move onto the next big 'un to beat senseless with my new stuff.

 

Notice I said "what little longevity it has". Warframe does not have much in the way of longevity right now. What we do have is made out of various forms of grind. Grind is okay as a way of creating longevity, it just can't be the only thing that creates longevity. And you have picked up on a key problem too, progression isn't really rewarded in Warframe. Shooting a level 10 lancer is identical to shooting a level 100 lancer, and you might even do it on the same tileset with the same gun.

 

I stand by what I said. In the current state of the void, tokens would be bad. The void needs a total rework, both to improve the pacing of the game and to keep vets engaged without resorting to artificially prolonging content through RNG.

 

Warframe is walking a delicate balance between RPG and TPS. Too much RPG-style statbuilding and metagaming and the action side of the game starts to suffer, to little and the RPG side starts to suffer. 

[AlphaHorseman]

In a recent devstream, Rebecca proposed a list of topics discussed in every stream so it would be more convenient to remember/track progress of each one over time. Scott was strongly against the idea, because he enjoyed the "open floor" feeling of devstreams. Speaking their minds freely and brainstorming live in front of their fans is what the devstreams are about, and the proposed list would cause the devs to speak more apprehensively since they would feel "locked in" to whatever they mention.

 

I largely agree with Scott, but despite this, we still see all these topics popping up, citing things that may have been mentioned in passing, or hypothetically in a devstream, saying "DE broke their promise", "tired of being lied to", etc. This leads the devs to be more reserved in what they reveal or discuss and shuts of a channel of communication.

 

Similarly, the community is notoriously poor at receiving nerfs. Regarding the Synoid Gammcor nerf, a proper response might be:

 

"The Synoid Gammacor far outclassed other secondary weapons and set the bar too high for any future secondary weapons to aspire to. This doomed them to be mastery fodder which is not a favourable environment. Although I'm sad to see the weapon nerfed, I'm optimistic about the future options this might allow me to explore."

 

or

 

"While I understand why you chose to nerf the Synoid Gammacor, I feel the nerf was excessive. I would propose alleviating the 7.5x ammo consumption to 2x or 3x, and here's why" (insert dps comparison with other secondaries, etc)

 

These sorts of responses would be guaranteed to be considered more seriously by the devs, and would facilitate healthy communication in the future. Instead of this, the community responded (and continues to) with childish outbursts of incomparable ignorance. Of course seeing this causes the devs to approach nerfs more carefully, even stealthily, because this hostile environment is not desirable.

 

What's my point with all this? We can't stick it all on the devs. The current environment is our fault as much as it's theirs.

Is it really though? Creating a forum for player feedback isn't always going to yield you the best responses. Hek, it'll throw out some really sore ones when things come down to it.

 

Neither was any of this hypothetical, when it came to Excal in this case, nor some other stealth nerfs as well. I agree that nerfing isn't anything anyone who uses that takes well, but it's not the nerfing thing in particular that's the issue here, it's how they went about doing it. If they stated to us earlier that they were making certain changes to certain things, then players could better understand and know what's going to happen. Backlash wouldn't be as bad because we all knew what was coming. Sure, there would still be people angry about it, but at least the reasons were clear and the results known.

 

But this isn't the case. They didn't even bother to say anything to us, even if it was an "oversight". They themselves fractured their response. Megan had stated that the Excalibur changes were what it was supposed to be from the get-go. Then Drew or Adam threw her under the bus by later saying that these changes were new, and needed to be tested. Look at the PSA on the recent Excalibur changes, and you'll see the evidence in that thread.

 

The issue, at the core, isn't the nature of the changes, but the fact that they covered up those changes, then knee-jerked and tried to do damage control on those changes, and then had to do damage control on their damage control because it backfired. Had they been forth-coming from the get-go, the response wouldn't be "why did you try and hide this from us, and then continue to try and hide it?", it could have been more constructive, as to why these changes in particular? Why do these changes now? What are the reasons behind it? Rather than players losing even more faith in DE and their word, and ultimately their game as well.

 

If DE could be more open with us before making these changes, and saying why these changes are incoming, and ask us for constructive input before, during, and after, we could go about making the relationship between the player base and DE less mistrusting and more so constructive. But, with how they've handled just throwing us a sucker punch to the face and deigned to call it "functioning as intended" with other shady things happening, it's shaken up a lot of players on trusting DE in many situations now.

[Flowen231]

Nobody was even arguing with you. It's called a discussion, it's a thing two people with differing opinions have. You were the one who couldn't keep things on topic and felt a need to attack me instead of my position. Or did I misinterpret this:

 

That was just what it seemed like to me, i did not mean any malice by it, and if it offended you I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent.

[AM-Bunny]

Is it really though? Creating a forum for player feedback isn't always going to yield you the best responses. Hek, it'll throw out some really sore ones when things come down to it.

 

Neither was any of this hypothetical, when it came to Excal in this case, nor some other stealth nerfs as well. I agree that nerfing isn't anything anyone who uses that takes well, but it's not the nerfing thing in particular that's the issue here, it's how they went about doing it. If they stated to us earlier that they were making certain changes to certain things, then players could better understand and know what's going to happen. Backlash wouldn't be as bad because we all knew what was coming. Sure, there would still be people angry about it, but at least the reasons were clear and the results known.

 

But this isn't the case. They didn't even bother to say anything to us, even if it was an "oversight". They themselves fractured their response. Megan had stated that the Excalibur changes were what it was supposed to be from the get-go. Then Drew or Adam threw her under the bus by later saying that these changes were new, and needed to be tested. Look at the PSA on the recent Excalibur changes, and you'll see the evidence in that thread.

 

The issue, at the core, isn't the nature of the changes, but the fact that they covered up those changes, then knee-jerked and tried to do damage control on those changes, and then had to do damage control on their damage control because it backfired. Had they been forth-coming from the get-go, the response wouldn't be "why did you try and hide this from us, and then continue to try and hide it?", it could have been more constructive, as to why these changes in particular? Why do these changes now? What are the reasons behind it? Rather than players losing even more faith in DE and their word, and ultimately their game as well.

 

If DE could be more open with us before making these changes, and saying why these changes are incoming, and ask us for constructive input before, during, and after, we could go about making the relationship between the player base and DE less mistrusting and more so constructive. But, with how they've handled just throwing us a sucker punch to the face and deigned to call it "functioning as intended" with other shady things happening, it's shaken up a lot of players on trusting DE in many situations now.

 

I disagree. A perfect recent example was the removal of T4 keys from syndicate rewards. The devs stated their intentions to remove them, since they were so easy to obtain so cheaply, and gave a poll for players to vote on a possible replacement. Obviously, neither one was as good as the original T4 key pack, because a nerf is exactly what was sought. Despite this, they wanted to give the players some amount of input on the matter.

 

The amount of rage and disgust in that poll was intolerable. The number of people that refused to vote because it was like "choosing which one of your hands to chop off" was ridiculous. Obviously everyone in the thread wanted to keep the original T4 key pack, and a majority completely refused to even partake in the poll. 

 

Subsequentially, when the actual change went through, many players complained that DE didn't listen to their players, since the majority wanted the T4 pack to stay, that's what the outcome should've been, according to them.

 

That was an attempt from DE to make themselves transparent and allow the players to give them direct feedback regarding how changes are implemented. It was meant almost entirely with hate and venom, and that's what we've taught the devs about ourselves.

 

I'm so tired of topics like this, that further this adversarial relationship with the developers.

[AlphaHorseman]

I disagree. A perfect recent example was the removal of T4 keys from syndicate rewards. The devs stated their intentions to remove them, since they were so easy to obtain so cheaply, and gave a poll for players to vote on a possible replacement. Obviously, neither one was as good as the original T4 key pack, because a nerf is exactly what was sought. Despite this, they wanted to give the players some amount of input on the matter.

 

The amount of rage and disgust in that poll was intolerable. The number of people that refused to vote because it was like "choosing which one of your hands to chop off" was ridiculous. Obviously everyone in the thread wanted to keep the original T4 key pack, and a majority completely refused to even partake in the poll. 

 

Subsequentially, when the actual change went through, many players complained that DE didn't listen to their players, since the majority wanted the T4 pack to stay, that's what the outcome should've been, according to them.

 

That was an attempt from DE to make themselves transparent and allow the players to give them direct feedback regarding how changes are implemented. It was meant almost entirely with hate and venom, and that's what we've taught the devs about ourselves.

 

I'm so tired of topics like this, that further this adversarial relationship with the developers.

Was it really ridiculous though? They could've just upped the cost of the keys to 25,000, and we still would've been alright with that, I'd think. Neither were the intentions clear:

 

Endless and infinite Tower IV Void Keys within Syndicate Offerings is something we offered with many iterations of theSyndicate system. There is no doubt this was used by many (recent 30-page PSA thread + a lot of us here as well), but we are making changes. The ramifications of the initial access caused skews in progression/difficulty and the exposure of massive loops of 'perpetual motion' of earning/spending Standing.

 

Please cast your vote in this poll to assist in the pending decision. Please note Keys will be removed (coming in 15.9) until this poll concludes and we discuss results.

 

Which Offering would you like to see?

1)    Cycle in 1 x TIV Key for 15K Standing. Mission type will follow existing assignment.

2)    Cycle in 3 x Random Void Keys, 1 x guaranteed T3 or T4 for 25K Standing. Sabotage Keys will included in the Random option.

 

The above was what was stated. Upping the cost would've helped with "progression" a lot more so than making RNG decide how our standing was spent. It feels like a lottery now where you'll have to leave it up to chance to decide how you get paid for your grinding.

 

And then after that came the stealth nerfs to Rotation C, and the removal of R5 Cores, and their "Reinstatement" into harder survival types, but with even a lower drop chance. Not only were these nerfs made stealthily, but it went against what they said as stating they were "reducing the grind" when all they did was make it worse.

Edited April 6, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Flowen231]

snip

Didn't they bait and switch that? I could have sworn that they gave us the key pack as "1 guaranteed t3/4 and 2 t1/2 keys and swapped it back later when players pestered them about the option on the poll stating that it was supposed to be 3 random keys 1 guaranteed t3/4.

[muzashi1963]

Upvoted OP.

 

Ex-Excal user. 

[AM-Bunny]

Was it really ridiculous though? They could've just upped the cost of the keys to 25,000, and we still would've been alright with that, I'd think. Neither were the intentions clear:

 

The above was what was stated. Upping the cost would've helped with "progression" a lot more so than making RNG decide how our standing was spent. It feels like a lottery now where you'll have to leave it up to chance to decide how you get paid for your grinding.

 

And then after that came the stealth nerfs to Rotation C, and the removal of R5 Cores, and their "Reinstatement" into harder survival types, but with even a lower drop chance. Not only were these nerfs made stealthily, but it went against what they said as stating they were "reducing the grind" when all they did was make it worse.

 

Isn't upping the cost while maintaining guaranteed T4 key exactly what option 1 is? Obviously people weren't ok with it.

 

I'm not claiming that DE has never made underhanded changes. The excal thing is pretty lame, I'll admit. But my point is, that we've caused this by reacting poorly to previous changes. We've caused this by giving largely useless and non-productive feedback. 

 

Not only do "witch hunt" threads like this do absolutely nothing to help the game, they drive a wedge further between us players and the devs.

 

Digital Extremes, I beg of-- No, I implore you, please take a moment to look at yourselves, take a look your actions, and think about how each word you type on the forums and each claim you speak on the camera will come back to haunt you.

^^^This kind of behaviour is ridiculous. At best all this can accomplish is a shut down of communication because the devs will be afraid that "each word they type" will "haunt" them later.

Edited April 6, 2015 by AM-Bunny

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

Not on the scale it needs to be. Not the scale that got rhino fixed within like, a month I think. Not the scale that gets S#&$ down quick.

 

Uhhh, grind has gone UP. the latest additions have pretty much been pure grind. Archwing? Grind, to get new stuff, to grind that stuff up to max level. most of the latest bosses? Grind. Every single mod? Grind. Primed mods? Holy fuckin crap, S#&$ tons of grind to max one out. And if it isn't grindy, it's time walled. Or both (i.e. Vay Hek. "Cool, you got the coords, now wait like, 12hrs" (iirc)). Very few things have gotten less grindy. "New" void stuff? More places to grind, and trading was not a proper answer unless an economy is part of your game, like EVE. Trading is simply a poor and lazy way to solve the problem.

 

The only thing that's gotten easier honestly is either the stuff tied to quests, or non boss rework frames, due to the 100% drop chance that started forever ago. (like, before the 1yr mark of WF iirc)

 

And you don't even have to do ANYTHING to the void to make a token system work. Add a trader who buys primes for... I dunno, lets call them ducats. (Prolly make the seller a rogue Corpus guy or something, as would be fitting) THEN assign each prime bit a value in these... "ducats", THEN another, higher price to BUY said piece with "ducats", as fitting with said Corpus merchant. Varo Ji'teer sounds like a great name. Lets call him that. This keeps the random drops, but allows a token system that doesn't change anything other than adding a hard cap by allowing you to buy X or Y at a set price in "ducats".

 

And another big thing. Grind IS NOT LONGEVITY. Well, it is, but it's NOT what Warframe needs. It's not what will keep WF going in the long run, it's not real content. It's simply a method of stretching content out. For example, in an RPG, you might go grind for some materials for a new sword, or armor. It's not the main focus of the game, it's simply a way to not just be handing the play progress (if that makes sense). For example, I don't play monster hunter to grind for a material over and over, then when I get it, go "welp, beat the game, now I'm done." No, I go make whatever I wanted with it, and move onto the next big 'un to beat senseless with my new stuff.

 

Devil's Advocate: In a game like Warframe, what would keep you coming back to play if all the items were so easy to get? It's easy to say "content", but what exactly do you consider "content"?. Especially in a game like Warframe that doesn't have an open world and is centered around co-op missions. I'm pretty sure if all the items could be obtained through quests, the argument would change to "there's nothing to do anymore".

 

Personally I feel the grind in Warframe is pretty good for me. I'm not in a rush to get everything in the game, so that helps. And I find the endless missions very enjoyable. I wouldn't turn down additional missions and such being implemented, but right now I don't feel like the game is too grindy.  

[ThePresident777]

There is no way that the players caused DE to do the things this thread complains about.  No one caused DE to make drop rates 0.01%, then deny the drop rates, then encrypt the drop rates when they got caught.  No one caused DE to nerf acrid down from 400 DPS to 50 DPS then put out more 400 DPS weapons while saying "balance ....".  Then nerf Galatine from 400 DPS to 100 DPS, then put out out more 400 DPS weapons while saying "balance ....".  Then nerf Twin Gremlins, then put out two higher DPS copies of it, Akstilleto and Akzani, while saying "balance ....".  Rinse and Repeat..  No one is making DE churn the content.  No one is making DE give us fun stuff then take it away.  DE decided to churn the content, not the players, while paying lip service to nerfers and buffers.  No one caused DE to put players with mutually exclusive tastes in the same game with no separtion so they constantly interfere with each other.  No one caused DE to make so many missions about baby sitting pods, even bottle feeding them.  No one caused DE to make camping missions then complain about camping, and nerf the player content.  No one asked DE to create these situations.

 

Useless and unproductive feedback is no excuse for a professional developer to screw up.  Professionals should be afraid/concerned/careful about their words haunting them later.  It's professional.  It's also what honest people do.  Screwing up and lieing is what anybody else could do.  Lets not drop the bar on the ground and shatter it.  Nothing good can come of that.

[(XBOX)BAMMM Lightning]

There is no way that the players caused DE to do the things this thread complains about.  No one caused DE to make drop rates 0.01%, then deny the drop rates, then encrypt the drop rates when they got caught.  No one caused DE to nerf acrid down from 400 DPS to 50 DPS then put out more 400 DPS weapons while saying "balance ....".  Then nerf Galatine from 400 DPS to 100 DPS, then put out out more 400 DPS weapons while saying "balance ....".  Then nerf Twin Gremlins, then put out two higher DPS copies of it, Akstilleto and Akzani, while saying "balance ....".  Rinse and Repeat..  No one is making DE churn the content.  No one is making DE give us fun stuff then take it away.  DE decided to churn the content, not the players, while paying lip service to nerfers and buffers.  No one caused DE to put players with mutually exclusive tastes in the same game with no separtion so they constantly interfere with each other.  No one caused DE to make so many missions about baby sitting pods, even bottle feeding them.  No one caused DE to make camping missions then complain about camping, and nerf the player content.  No one asked DE to create these situations.

 

Useless and unproductive feedback is no excuse for a professional developer to screw up.  Professionals should be afraid/concerned/careful about their words haunting them later.  It's professional.  It's also what honest people do.  Screwing up and lieing is what anybody else could do.  Lets not drop the bar on the ground and shatter it.  Nothing good can come of that.

 

Is that first paragraph really true? I don't like that. 

[Liminal]

Is that first paragraph really true? I don't like that. 

We (savvy dudes, not me) used to be able to datamine drop rates and stuff, and then they encrypted it saying that it was to help fight cheats (or something along those lines).

It was kind of shady, considering it happened right after a lot of complaints of extremely low drop rates for a certain item. I don't exactly remember the details but that's mostly what happened.

[Bazookagofer]

You're a founder. Remember old-timey resource grind? Remember vay hek keywall? Remember how hard forma were to get? Syndicates? Or like a dozen other things. The grind has gotten easier, there's just more to do.

 

It does still need a lot of work though, especially on fusion cores/mod progression. Really, I think that whole system needs to be scrapped. Especially with primed mods. IMO, mods should gain levels like guns/frames, just with much higher values. Or something like that. The mod system as a whole needs a look, it's probably one of the weakest points in the game right now.

The cores. Maxing Serration, vitality, redirection,blind rage etc is ridiculous. By my guess I need to farm up about 3 mil creds, and about 500-600 R5 cores not mentioning regulars. And since DE in their omnipotence lowered R5 drops in T4S. I am stuck with going to Triton Neptune hoping to get 10-15 cores per run. Fun grind wall. Leveling up mods would be great... or you know maybe if they made upgrading them less frustrating it would be great.

[Rexlars]

I wouldn't call it an excuse when we've legitimately caught them breaking their word on numerous occasions and putting in some stealth nerfs in the process as well. It wasn't just the Excal RJ change, but the most recent undocumented change to Excal's RB that removes the stealth multiplier, along with other unregistered changes.

 

This is the reason topics like this exist. People read something, true or not, & run with it. They relay it to others as if it were fact, which in turn causes perpetual ignorance, which results in perpetual disdain for DE. Now, I'm not saying you're a culprit of such behavior (I can't know whether you are or aren't), but I just so happened to be using your post as a catalyst.

 

With actual testing, one would find out that the stealth multiplier was not removed. Once the "Ahh my eyes!" phase is over & they begin running around (but smoke still coming from their head), then may the stealth multiplier be applied.

 

Not only that, but the reason there have been undocumented changes was addressed, officially. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You're a founder. Remember old-timey resource grind? Remember vay hek keywall? Remember how hard forma were to get? Syndicates? Or like a dozen other things. The grind has gotten easier, there's just more to do.

It does still need a lot of work though, especially on fusion cores/mod progression. Really, I think that whole system needs to be scrapped. Especially with primed mods. IMO, mods should gain levels like guns/frames, just with much higher values. Or something like that. The mod system as a whole needs a look, it's probably one of the weakest points in the game right now.

But see, for everything they changed, they add something. The need for CMs shifted to O cells, and then massive amounts of cores with corrupted mods, and then legendary mods (fuckin stupid idea right there imo.) And I agree, the ENTIRE mod system needs a rework. Something different. Something focused less on damage, but more on utility. What if elements added no damage, but simply gave a higher status chance along with the effect, or whatever. Something that takes the focus off of the one optimal build per faction (element wise).

 

There are a couple things that would happen with a token system:

1) the token requirements are set absurdly high, it's faster just to grind. Vets build up a megamassive stock of tokens and get prime stuff the second it hits the game, new and mid-tier players are stuck in grind hell just like now.

2) Void drop tables are flooded with garbage, and tokens become the primary method of part acquisition. The grind is just as long as before, only slightly different now.

3) some horrible combination of the two, or some BS restriction on tokens that makes them frustrating and/or impractical to use.

Seriously, a token system right now would be bad news. Best case scenario, nothing would change as far as required time investment.

I'm just gonna drop this, because it all depends on how DE implements it. At best, it'd be my version/view of it (imo), at worst, it'd be what you (and I) dread. I agree with you there, and knowing DE, they'd probably pick a terrible way to do it.

 

Notice I said "what little longevity it has". Warframe does not have much in the way of longevity right now. What we do have is made out of various forms of grind. Grind is okay as a way of creating longevity, it just can't be the only thing that creates longevity. And you have picked up on a key problem too, progression isn't really rewarded in Warframe. Shooting a level 10 lancer is identical to shooting a level 100 lancer, and you might even do it on the same tileset with the same gun.

Yeah, the only real form of "longevity" it has it how badly you want to see a level 9999 enemy. There's no story, no lore to really infulence (and by that, I mean, so what if grineer "operation: exterminate X" is stopped by the tenno, or that it isn't stopped. We don't really see any impact to the world of WF.) WF's tiny bit of lore was great when they gave some out, it was mysterious, it was wonderful. Then Vor's Prize came along and it was on the backburner for like, what? A year?

What I'm saying is, they need to develop warframe, instead of expanding it. To make a comparison here, it's a huge lake, miles wide, but it's only a half inch deep.

As for enemies, I kinda expect to see shooting the same guy remain the same, despite the levels. However, I think what the enemies do should change. at level 10, these are like, the scrubs. The newbies. The freshly cloned. Where as at level 100, they've seen action, they know not to pop their heads out until the napalm shows up, or a heavy gunner steps out to take a beating. What I'm saying is that a logic tree/graph would do wonders for making combat more interesting.

 

 

Devil's Advocate: In a game like Warframe, what would keep you coming back to play if all the items were so easy to get? It's easy to say "content", but what exactly do you consider "content"?. Especially in a game like Warframe that doesn't have an open world and is centered around co-op missions. I'm pretty sure if all the items could be obtained through quests, the argument would change to "there's nothing to do anymore".

 

Personally I feel the grind in Warframe is pretty good for me. I'm not in a rush to get everything in the game, so that helps. And I find the endless missions very enjoyable. I wouldn't turn down additional missions and such being implemented, but right now I don't feel like the game is too grindy.  

To counter: "content" is missions, quests, storylines, replayable "fun" things. Not grinding up a weapon so you can hit a bigger, pointless number. Both mastery rank AND damage wise. And again, I'm not saying EVERYTHING should be easy to get. I think they need to rebalance and retier weapons. Market stuff should be either mostly credits, or low cost crafting items, step up would be say, quest BPs (not one use items either, think reusable), or boss drop BPs, etc. Then clan tech, syndicate and prime weapons, with event weapons either being a skin, or tiered around the same as their base weapon.

 

As for the sudden "no more to do", there's already very little to do outside of grinding up weapons. Archwing is underdeveloped (and not widely liked from what I've seen), the story is massively lacking, and progression itself is very awkward.

 

As it is now, coop isn't needed heavily outside of raids, I can take a boltor prime and fly through a mission with ease, or zorens and just skip all the fighting. Hell, I could let everyone else do that FOR me, and just AFK and twitch around every so often so I don't get marked as an AFK, or just keep up with them and not do anything else.

 

Not only that, but the reason there have been undocumented changes was addressed, officially. 

The reason being what anyone else would say. No one will admit to making shady moves, or dirty actions. This is like asking a criminal to turn themselves in. It's not gonna happen.

Edited April 6, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1

[vaugahn]

But see, for everything they changed, they add something. The need for CMs shifted to O cells, and then massive amounts of cores with corrupted mods, and then legendary mods (fuckin stupid idea right there imo.) And I agree, the ENTIRE mod system needs a rework. Something different. Something focused less on damage, but more on utility. What if elements added no damage, but simply gave a higher status chance along with the effect, or whatever. Something that takes the focus off of the one optimal build per faction (element wise).

 

As I said, it's gotten wider. The grind for individual items has lessened, but there are now more individual items that require grinding.

 

As for damage, I agree. The only damage mod that should exist is Heavy Caliber, and its accuracy malus should be upped considerably. Flat damage mods have no place here, the mods system should let a player customize a gun to suit their playstyle. 

 

Yeah, the only real form of "longevity" it has it how badly you want to see a level 9999 enemy. There's no story, no lore to really infulence (and by that, I mean, so what if grineer "operation: exterminate X" is stopped by the tenno, or that it isn't stopped. We don't really see any impact to the world of WF.) WF's tiny bit of lore was great when they gave some out, it was mysterious, it was wonderful. Then Vor's Prize came along and it was on the backburner for like, what? A year?

 

Grind is a form of longevity, but it has to come hand-in-hand with that other stuff. There has to be long-term goals and a progression mechanic, regardless of how much other stuff there is.

 

They have to be careful with the lore, as well. A lot of what makes Warframe's universe cool is that mystery, I honestly think that they should not have introduced the sentients as a faction. Now they're not the ancient and unknowable enemy that brought the Orokin to their knees, they're just monster #980923 getting blasted in the face with a Boltor Prime. Kind of ruins the mystery.

 

As for enemies, I kinda expect to see shooting the same guy remain the same, despite the levels. However, I think what the enemies do should change. at level 10, these are like, the scrubs. The newbies. The freshly cloned. Where as at level 100, they've seen action, they know not to pop their heads out until the napalm shows up, or a heavy gunner steps out to take a beating. What I'm saying is that a logic tree/graph would do wonders for making combat more interesting.

 

That too, but the guys should not be exactly the same. A spec ops trooper and a newly enlisted private don't really look the same, even though they're similar. High level enemies should use different weapons, have more "advanced" looking gear, stuff like that. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

As I said, it's gotten wider. The grind for individual items has lessened, but there are now more individual items that require grinding.

I disagree that it's just gotten wider. It's gotten wider, but it's stayed roughly the same depth.

 

 

As for damage, I agree. The only damage mod that should exist is Heavy Caliber, and its accuracy malus should be upped considerably. Flat damage mods have no place here, the mods system should let a player customize a gun to suit their playstyle.

Exactly, the mod system needs to be more flexible, instead of incredibly static. Sure you COULD use flame resistance, but for the same cost you can get more shield vs EVERYTHING from a same cost redirection.

 

Grind is a form of longevity, but it has to come hand-in-hand with that other stuff. There has to be long-term goals and a progression mechanic, regardless of how much other stuff there is.

I wouldn't say a form of longevity. I'd say it's a method, which if done right, serves to enhance the experience/create a sense of fulfillment. For example, in an RPG/Diablo esque/MMO, you work towards getting the right build so you can take on the hardest difficulty, the biggest raids/bosses.

[vaugahn]

I wouldn't say a form of longevity. I'd say it's a method, which if done right, serves to enhance the experience/create a sense of fulfillment. For example, in an RPG/Diablo esque/MMO, you work towards getting the right build so you can take on the hardest difficulty, the biggest raids/bosses.

 

And that work mostly comes in the form of grind, whether direct or indirect. Note that by grind I'm referring to any repetition task, like "kill X enemy 10 times" or a random drop or really anything of that nature. 

 

It's something that needs to work together with a progression system, it can't be the progression system.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And that work mostly comes in the form of grind, whether direct or indirect. Note that by grind I'm referring to any repetition task, like "kill X enemy 10 times" or a random drop or really anything of that nature. 

 

It's something that needs to work together with a progression system, it can't be the progression system.

I agree completely. I'm playing through ME2, I never feel like I'm grinding, outside of scanning planets for minerals, and even then it doesn't take THAT long to get the minerals I need to continue on. I never feel like I'm grinding through a mission, mostly because of the story, but never grinding through just to get through it. I can see the progress bit by bit. Some of it comes from the grind, getting the minerals to get the upgrades, but most of it is either from exploration, or finishing the actual mission. I either found an upgrade, or I unlocked a new weapon. Or a bit of the story, something that enhances the world, making it seem more immersive.

[AlphaHorseman]

This is the reason topics like this exist. People read something, true or not, & run with it. They relay it to others as if it were fact, which in turn causes perpetual ignorance, which results in perpetual disdain for DE. Now, I'm not saying you're a culprit of such behavior (I can't know whether you are or aren't), but I just so happened to be using your post as a catalyst.

 

With actual testing, one would find out that the stealth multiplier was not removed. Once the "Ahh my eyes!" phase is over & they begin running around (but smoke still coming from their head), then may the stealth multiplier be applied.

 

Not only that, but the reason there have been undocumented changes was addressed, officially. 

I added that in because of testing and evidence placed here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/422957-u16-radial-blind-bugstealth-nerf-excalibur-is-completely-worthless-even-without-radial-javelin/page-2

[SonicSonedit]

And that work mostly comes in the form of grind

That the general problem of WF nowdays.

[DoomFruit]

We (savvy dudes, not me) used to be able to datamine drop rates and stuff, and then they encrypted it saying that it was to help fight cheats (or something along those lines).

It was kind of shady, considering it happened right after a lot of complaints of extremely low drop rates for a certain item. I don't exactly remember the details but that's mostly what happened.

0.6% drop chance for boar prime receiver: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1mrr5j/1007_datamined_reward_tables/

Encrypted drop tables shortly after: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1o3jzr/1030_rewarddrop_tables_where_are_they/

Edited April 11, 2015 by DoomFruit