Stop The Shield Bypass! - Shield Viability Vs. Bleeding

[PickleMonster21]

I understand it perfectly, a better question is whether you understand logic, literally every thing you've typed out in this thread is deranged and nonsensical

Do I understand logic in a game where you can jump two meters, look up, melee and get 12 meters higher... Think about that.

 

 

What I'd expect you to do is what the OP did: ask DE to change it through the Forums, the thing DE has for providing feedback. You told him to use the bandaids. But he's asking for a more permanent fix, one that he cannot make happen just by using bandaids. So if you disagree that's fine, but saying that you disagree because there are bandaids makes no sense.

No no.

I don't want change for Slash damage. I think it needs a little altering in terms of who can deal it (an plasma bolt dealing Slash damage... righto), but I'm not against it in the slightest. SO, having said that, these bandaids are actual bandaids, Not "The game is broken *sticks bandaid on it* There". What I've suggested are ways to counter, or minimize the death toll dealt by Slash Damage.

So I'm not disagreeing because there are bandaids. I'm disagreeing and offering counter-measures.

[GhostMelody]

Where is the logic in that? You do not always play with an oberon beside you to keep clearing procs off of you.

Also, do you even get the point of this thread? I'm addressing the viability of shields. Means of removing procs are only possessed by certain warframes, further worsening the situation of a good part of all warframes: Having no way to stop those procs on their own.

You are aware that some cant remove these procs because it isn't what they are meant to do, right?

And there are many ways in which you can avoid them, frames have a bunch of abilities that can either heal or be used to avoid damage:

Oberon,Trinity,Nyx,Ash,Loki,Mag,Rhino,Frost,Volt; and then I can say any frame with CC..... Kinda don't get the rant here,bud

If the bullets are an issue then keep your rear in gear, DE made it harder for enemies to hit moving target, so if you ain't movin enuf, expect to get shot

[SkyllianBlitz]

At the very least, make bleeding procs bring your health down to 1 and not actually kill you. That way, bleeding damage is still a serious problem but instead of "rocks fall, you lose" it just raises the consequences of losing your shields.

[nekrojiji]

Stop saying stuff about armor when it comes to slash proc ....... the slash proc damage ignores armor

Edited March 23, 2015 by nekrojiji

[VermilionBoulder]

Stop saying stuff about armor when it comes to slash proc ....... the slash proc damage ignores armor

Yes, my mistake, I realised that 20-30 posts ago.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Redstoneman

[Shimonoki_Ryuji]

Rapid Resilience mod removes 75% of the proc's time. Proc damage doesn't work like Saryn's Miasma, so you'll recieve the same amount of damage to your HP, but, say, not for 10 seconds, but for 2.5 sec.

[MirageKnight]

We know about Rapid Resilience...that treats any and all procs themselves, but not the actual problem being discussed.

 

The problem being discussed is bleed procs randomly bypassing full armour and shields to affect health, which is arguably unfair and arbitrary.

Edited March 23, 2015 by MirageKnight

[Centias]

You know, most of the time, bleed and toxic procs are pretty negligible, or at least nothing to really worry about. I can usually run around with a dinky 200 hp and catch a bleed for like 30 damage overall. But every now and then there's that completely wild overkill bleed proc that doesn't seem to take into consideration the actual damage of the shot that caused it.

 

Example: I went into an Earth exterminate mission for a Kubrow egg, using a lower-rank frame. The very first enemy I came across was a Ballista. I rounded a corner face to face with it so it noticed me first and shot once. Quickly and easily killed it with a swing of my melee weapon and thought nothing of it, it's like level 10 (or lower) after all. Its shot didn't even put a tiny dent in my shields really, maybe 50 damage or so. But it had put a bleed on me, for over 65 health per tick. The last thing I was expecting first thing in the mission was take a fatal bleed proc, so you can imagine my surprise when I just kind of faceplanted a couple seconds after it was dead.

 

And every now and then, Toxic procs do the same kind of thing. Which is why I think these kinds of procs need some kind of cap based on the frame's max health (will not exceed 50% or so of frame's max HP).

[Otaiken]

I think that shields along with agility should be about damage prevention, as opposed to soaking it up and regaining HP.

 

I would like shields to be the mode of defense agile frames depend on.

 

Hence I propose 3 changes to shields to create this kind of playstyle:

 

1) Damage that broke your shield does not spill into your HP. This prevents oneshots, gives you a damage buffer and rewards good positioning and speed. It would also make shields an asset even for frames that get very little of them. With Valkyr shields are no longer just an irrelevant blue number, they represent 1 extra hit that you can brush off... use that wisely.

 

2) Random bleed procs don't go through shields. Enemy specific proc still do (Like Eviscerators for example).

 

3) New mod which gives you % dodge chance (chance to negate damage of hit) with your shields up and while sprinting/jumping/sliding or using your melee attacks. Stay on the move and you take less damage, this also gives shield frames some melee synergy something they don't get right now (unlike the HP dependant Life Strike / Rage crowd).

 

 

Now let's not discuss numbers yet, this is just an idea so far. The biggest problem with this is the fact that nothing prevents tank frames that get both high HP and shields to just stack this for even more tankiness. This indeed would pose a problem I'm not sure how to solve, apart from universal stat tweak.

 

EDIT: Now I realize that this would make shields superior as dodge would scale infinitely while armor+HP gets worse results as enemies scale in levels. Thoguh this is mostly the same problem the rest of the game suffers from... yet again... scaling. Well, at least remove the RNG bleed proc for now... please?

Edited March 23, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Liminal]

Bypassing shields should be done sparingly, by rare and powerful attacks. You shouldn't get bleed procs 25-30 times in one mission.

e.g.: an Ancient toxic aoe is quite uncommon and avoidable, that's perfectly acceptable in my book.

[VermilionBoulder]

Now let's not discuss numbers yet, this is just an idea so far. The biggest problem with this is the fact that nothing prevents tank frames that get both high HP and shields to just stack this for even more tankiness. This indeed would pose a problem I'm not sure how to solve, apart from universal stat tweak.

 

EDIT: Now I realize that this would make shields superior as dodge would scale infinitely while armor+HP gets worse results as enemies scale in levels. Thoguh this is mostly the same problem the rest of the game suffers from... yet again... scaling. Well, at least remove the RNG bleed proc for now... please?

Regarding the first point, I think that the shield recharge delay OR rate could scale with base shield value for some warframes. For example, Loki would have to wait longer than Excalibur to get his shields back up, but Excalibur would have to wait longer than Mag to do that.

 

Loki already has the ability to stay invisible almost all the time. Zephyr... That's kind of another thing. She has both high HP and Shields, meaning that she would have to get a personal nerf to shield recharge rate and/or delay. She can already mitigate a good portion of all ranged damage.

 

 

Now for the second point... I don't really see the problem. I doubt that evasion, if implemented, would make us able to evade 100% damage. On a normal 35-40 wave run of T4 Defence, it may give warframes that rely on their shields an edge, but that kinda is the point. They would still have to seek cover from time to time, while most armor/HP-reliant warframes already have viable means of damage reduction.

 

EDIT: We've never had proper scaling. Adding more and more damage and health to enemies was never a good solution. It's just numbers, to win you just need a team with the right combination of CC spam, restoration and spewing damage all over the place (I'm looking at you, Escalation TA).

A good scaling would be increasingly difficult AI, able to evade attacks, flank, move in formations, cover each other, weaponry becoming more varied, utility units, etc.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Redstoneman

[Wawazat]

Yeah, this is the one reason I'm questioning playing Nova anymore. There's no point in Nova Prime, because what good is hundreds of more useless Shield?

 

They add nullifiers, grineer snow globes, and infested spitters. All of these almost guarantee death if you are in a higher level area, and are too close to any of them. The only way to remove them, is the fastest fire-rate weapons in the game. 

 

OH, WAIT! Synoid Gammacor can't build fire rate anymore, and EVERY OTHER WEAPON that can get rid of them in any reasonable amount of time, deal less than 15k DPS and get rid of 100% of your ammunition. This means every other enemy EXCEPT nullifiers/snow globe/spitters are impossible to kill! Yay "balanced" weapons.

 

Game is fine. No need for balance, when you can destroy everything balanced, causing people to buy the new and improved "balance" every week.

damage to nullifier is flat, the new gammacore is actually more effective at killing the shield. burst dps on the gammacore is unchanged, only sustained dps (reloading more often) and ammo efficiency were really affected.

[Volume]

I feel like something like Saryn's Molt's ability to remove all status effects is something that should be baseline to all warframes, just with a 15sec ocooldown or something.

[Falchoin]

At the very least, make bleeding procs bring your health down to 1 and not actually kill you. That way, bleeding damage is still a serious problem but instead of "rocks fall, you lose" it just raises the consequences of losing your shields.

Have to admit, I really like this idea.