Lets Nerf The Nerf On Synoid Gammacor

[DarkLordX2]

What are you talking about? The Synoid Gammacor and reg. Gammacor were both complete trash when they were released. They were buffed once, and then the SG was nerfed into the ground. There is no early access for the synoid gammacor, and rather than spend plat on a booster, you could spend 50p and get it from someone in trade chat.

The current prize of the Synoid Gammacor in the market is like 30p.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The current prize of the Synoid Gammacor in the market is like 30p.

 

Damn, that dropped fast. Either way that furthers my point.

[SYLUX6574]

DE wont unnerf it. The idea was to make people 4-5 forma another weapon now sinoid DPS was brough to ground. That is how PWE works, get used to it.

moron

The SG is still a top tier weapon. stop whining.

Edited April 4, 2015 by SYLUX6574

[SquirmyBurrito]

moron

The SG is still a top tier weapon. stop whining.

 

It is a top-tier weapon that falls off hard in usability despite having nice sounding dps numbers.

[Grom-84]

LETS NERF THE NERF ON SYNOID GAMMACOR

 

Deal! if we cancel Kohm nerf too.

[SYLUX6574]

It is a top-tier weapon that falls off hard in usability despite having nice sounding dps numbers.

I've used the new sg over an hour in t4 survival and in the raid. No ammo problems whatsoever

[SquirmyBurrito]

I've used the new sg over an hour in t4 survival and in the raid. No ammo problems whatsoever

 

Good for you, my experiences were completely different. I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that ammo drops are RANDOM.

 

Did you solo that T4? Was there a desecrating Nekros present? Did you EVER switch to your primary/melee? Did you have a carrier competing with you for kills due to a well modded sweeper? If you answered yes to any of these, your argument falls flat.

[Genoscythe]

YES! HATE ME! OP here

 

But seriously guys, a weapon is more than its DPS-number, everyone who bases his arguments exclusively on damage should go back under his rock.

 

Synoid gammacor was nothing more than an extended light sabre, it had an awesome damage to ammo rate with a limited range as drawback, but right now its DPS-to-firetime relation is horribly weak, not only compared to other secondaries but also to most primaries.

 

Let me explain myself a bit more, for me synoid was the coolest gun in the game, less for the DPS, I actually would not have minded a straight damage nerf, taking away one fourth or even one third of its DPS would not have hurt me, but for the STYLE, I love weapons that are something like a part of my body, and synoid is the closest thing we have to this in Warframe.

 

With a dps nerf it would still have been a usable, allround good gun with a heavy range limitation.

 

But now it's completely unusable for every run over 3 minutes, especially for runs where you have to shoot an enemy longer than one second like a high-level gunner (its completely useless for bossfights or damage-cap enemies).

 

 

Lets face it: You never run out of ammo with your primary anyway unless you spam like stupid and dont know what aim means. Secondaries in warframe have always been on par with primaries, some even say they are better (again, dont base your opinion just on DPS, a weapon is more than that).

 

The choice between secondary and primary is more about style, I never had to use one because I was out of ammo with my primary. Both weapon classes can be fully used throughout any mission without running out of ammo and dealing enough to handle enemies.

 

 

Synoid however is so unusable now because of its epic ammo consumption, also the fact that you pick up less ammo than with every other secondary (40 ammo at 450 max instead of 20 at 210 max) makes it less than viable.

[Bobtm]

 I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that ammo drops are RANDOM.

 

That's another thing that's always sort of bothered me with having ammo economy as a control factor for any weapon's given weakpoint.  Seeing as there's no real guarantee regarding any form of ammunition pickup, it makes for a more unreliable gun.  Of course that's not to say ammo economy shouldn't ever be a thing of relevancy to any gun, but the middle-ground is better than going into an extreme with this variable.

 

Earlier I ran across this thread right here in the same section.  Which is regarding the notion of energy weapons having an alternate type of "ammo pool" relying on fixed magazine sizes and regenerating ammo.  I do hope that DE gets the chance to work towards this becoming a real thing in the near future, it's almost more intriguing to me than Parkour 2.0 in a way.

 

Something like that is an interesting prospect as it creates a weapon who's sustain is fully controlled.  Every bit of unreliability/randomness is instantly absolved.  Weapons who's ammo pools are changed into this are now in a state of absolute control, where their sustain is hard-locked in a very direct way.  This would mean the weapon cannot be unreliable as far as relying on ammo pickups, yet it also means that it likely needs to be utilized in a more controlled way.  Possibly giving some of these weapons the drawback of having them overheat if fired too long, or other interesting mechanics with gains/trade-offs.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

That's another thing that's always sort of bothered me with having ammo economy as a control factor for any weapon's given weakpoint.  Seeing as there's no real guarantee regarding any form of ammunition pickup, it makes for a more unreliable gun.  Of course that's not to say ammo economy shouldn't ever be a thing of relevancy to any gun, but the middle-ground is better than going into an extreme with this variable.

 

Earlier I ran across this thread right here in the same section.  Which is regarding the notion of energy weapons having an alternate type of "ammo pool" relying on fixed magazine sizes and regenerating ammo.  I do hope that DE gets the chance to work towards this becoming a real thing in the near future, it's almost more intriguing to me than Parkour 2.0 in a way.

 

Something like that is an interesting prospect as it creates a weapon who's sustain is fully controlled.  Every bit of unreliability/randomness is instantly absolved.  Weapons who's ammo pools are changed into this are now in a state of absolute control, where their sustain is hard-locked in a very direct way.  This would mean the weapon cannot be unreliable as far as relying on ammo pickups, yet it also means that it likely needs to be utilized in a more controlled way.  Possibly giving some of these weapons the drawback of having them overheat if fired too long, or other interesting mechanics with gains/trade-offs.

 

I like the recharging idea as long as this ammo economy wasn't carried over into the new system. That or the heat build up + venting thing that other games go with.

[Skadedyr]

How is running out of ammo in under a minute considered balanced?

 

 

I run my Gammacore as my main weapon (don't even bring primaries anymore) and all it took to make it work just as well after the nerf was a maxed ammo mutation and replacing the rate of fire mods with damage mods.

 

Only thing I run into that I'm reloading a little bit more than usual, but hardly ever run out of ammo. 

[StratosOmega]

Well, you'll see, there are MANY powerful weapons out there, Synoid being one of them.

I have every weapon ingame. No, there are not many powerful weapons. Truth is, T4 Survival is barely possible after 50 minutes. And with the Sentients plotting in the dark, we need more power (like Vergil) and stronger weapons/mods.

[DiosGX]

Seeing as there's no real guarantee regarding any form of ammunition pickup,

I'm gonna just have to stop you right there.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Large_Team_Ammo_Restore

 

260 ammo restored to secondaries in total, in bursts of 65 at a time. Drop one after the first reload... keep firing. Alternatively, drop 2-3 at 1.5 second intervals of each other and go to town. Polymers and Nanos are not only easily farmed, but come in batches of 1500~ and 260~ at a time, and commonly to boot, from Titan Extractors. I suggest Neptune, Saturn and Eris... and tack on Venus if you're one of them fancy founder dealies.

 

o3o

[SquirmyBurrito]

I run my Gammacore as my main weapon (don't even bring primaries anymore) and all it took to make it work just as well after the nerf was a maxed ammo mutation and replacing the rate of fire mods with damage mods.

 

Only thing I run into that I'm reloading a little bit more than usual, but hardly ever run out of ammo. 

I'm gonna just have to stop you right there.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Large_Team_Ammo_Restore

 

260 ammo restored to secondaries in total, in bursts of 65 at a time. Drop one after the first reload... keep firing. Alternatively, drop 2-3 at 1.5 second intervals of each other and go to town. Polymers and Nanos are not only easily farmed, but come in batches of 1500~ and 260~ at a time, and commonly to boot, from Titan Extractors. I suggest Neptune, Saturn and Eris... and tack on Venus if you're one of them fancy founder dealies.

 

o3o

 

I love how both of you seem to think that band-aids are a fine replacement for proper game balance.

 

If you have to mainline ammo restores to avoid running out of ammo there is something drastically wrong.

Edited April 5, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito

[LazyKnight]

I love how both of you seem to think that band-aids are a fine replacement for proper game balance.

 

If you have to mainline ammo restores to avoid running out of ammo there is something drastically wrong.

Some people want a game like some of the Final Fantasy titles, where chain using consumables was required.  People that want this, just want you to be burning credits as ammo for the privilege of having slightly higher DPS.  Ammo pads are not going to help against level 60s, unless CPx4 is being used. Corrosive Projection is the reason a lot of people say its ammo usage is fine. 

 

Synoid can not kill a sub level 30 NPC as fast as a hit-scan weapon. Most NPCs have less than a few thousand health up until level 30. When you need Synoids' DPS it's out of ammo. If you can tap fire kill something another gun could have killed the NPC quicker.

Edited April 5, 2015 by LazyKnight

[matrixEXO]

Dex Furis reminded me that the Synoid Gammacor is far from having severe ammo issues.

It kept the damage, so you can still one-shot tons of enemies in a single click.

 

Basically it's more punishing if you use the spray-and-pray style, but is still manageable with burst-fire.

Nope, doesn't help on stages where a certain amount of damage is needed. I main my Synoid (only potatoed since the time I had it) and it works well in stages where enemies takes more than a pee-shot to kill. Tapping the Synoid and slowly firing said Synoid definitely makes it weaker than previously as well (tap firing Synoid back then still did more damage than now). Controlled fire for Synoid is also not a good thing to do since controlling the fire of the weapon generally leads to more time wastage and then some when other weapons can just burst them down in one shot before moving to the next.

 

Also, ammo consumption is crap for that amount of damage that they might as well buff the damage back to original Gammacor values and keep the ammo consumption in order to make it more viable (or close to that damage). Sure, it deals more damage than the originally buffed Synoid or the current DPS of the Synoid but at least the ammo drain is real for sweep and clear while it's real strength is actually a boss slayer (or tank killer). Synoid should be viable in situations which calls for it's use as a defense weapon (what kind of defensive weapon runs out of ammo every 5 seconds while having a pretty bad damage value? People use LMG turrets in real life for defense because of their massively large ammo count before reload and their oomph, both of which aren't in the Synoid.).

[Bobtm]

I'm gonna just have to stop you right there.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Large_Team_Ammo_Restore

 

260 ammo restored to secondaries in total, in bursts of 65 at a time. Drop one after the first reload... keep firing. Alternatively, drop 2-3 at 1.5 second intervals of each other and go to town. Polymers and Nanos are not only easily farmed, but come in batches of 1500~ and 260~ at a time, and commonly to boot, from Titan Extractors. I suggest Neptune, Saturn and Eris... and tack on Venus if you're one of them fancy founder dealies.

 

o3o

So you suggest the reliance on a clearly broken item mechanic?  I'm sorry but that's just absolutely silly.

 

Using Restore spam I've managed to stay up while standing under heavy fire during the suspiciuos shipment alerts way back when as a Loki with no Redirection/Vitality.  The quicker these items creep up towards the meta, the sooner they're going to get slapped with some hard limitations.

 

Making suggestions like that under the assumption that I don't know full well what those ammo restores are (needlessly quoting the wiki page even) is just a messed up thing as well.

 

As Squirmy and Lazy so properly put it.

 

I love how both of you seem to think that band-aids are a fine replacement for proper game balance.

 

If you have to mainline ammo restores to avoid running out of ammo there is something drastically wrong.

 

Some people want a game like some of the Final Fantasy titles, where chain using consumables was required.

 

Like above, item spam chain shouldn't be a requirement for a weapon to simply function.

 

Just to circle back in case someone misconstrues what I'm getting at here;  I definitely don't want the SG to go back to its prior stats, it was a very broken gun that needed to be nerfed/rebalanced.  However the nerf that it did get was not, in my opinion, the right one.

[SYLUX6574]

Good for you, my experiences were completely different. I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that ammo drops are RANDOM.

 

Did you solo that T4? Was there a desecrating Nekros present? Did you EVER switch to your primary/melee? Did you have a carrier competing with you for kills due to a well modded sweeper? If you answered yes to any of these, your argument falls flat.

my only weapons were my dakra prime and my SG. it was me and my friend playing. I was zephyr and he was nova. I was using my helios for scanning.

 So my argument is valid. 

 

Also ammo drops are not so random that I would have NO ammo problems and you do.

[Bobtm]

 Also ammo drops are not so random that I would have NO ammo problems and you do.

You really lack a fundamental understanding of how randomization works.

 

Case in point of an alternate example (I never really use ammo burning weapons almost at all, semi-auto for life) with Life Support units from enemies in Survival.  I killed tons, tons of enemies.  But by the grace of RNG I got next to no LS drops on a really easy Survival run, Phobos.  Ended up being effectively forced to extract at 5 minutes, and it was a struggle to reach that point.  It's a rare occurrence but it can and does happen.

 

Same thing can very much occur for ammunition.  The only time it doesn't happen is when a game uses pseudo-RNG with a sort of fail-safe built into it that will increase the chances for a specific drop should it not occur after X amount of tries.  From what I've seen, Warframe never makes use of such a formula in any facet of the gameplay.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Bobtm

[Rakshal]

I have every weapon ingame. No, there are not many powerful weapons. Truth is, T4 Survival is barely possible after 50 minutes. And with the Sentients plotting in the dark, we need more power (like Vergil) and stronger weapons/mods.

The game shouldn't be balanced around endless missions.

[Skadedyr]

I love how both of you seem to think that band-aids are a fine replacement for proper game balance.

 

If you have to mainline ammo restores to avoid running out of ammo there is something drastically wrong.

 

You seem to forget that the Synoid is a secondary weapon. It is supposed to be a backup weapon, not something you run as a primary all the time.

 

And even when you want to run it as a primary it's still a viable choice when you mod it right. It doesn't need band aids.

 

Before the nerf it was an EASY weapon, just slap damage and ROF mods on it and you were done. Now you are still able to get very similar results, but you do need to put some more thought in your mod schedule (especially in the ammo department). I had a 4 forma build with maxed out damage before the nerf, after the nerf I lost 2k damage (which was way less than 10%) because I had to re-mod for long run ammo conservation.

 

I think the nerf was justified and a balanced one. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Skadedyr

[Bobtm]

You seem to forget that the Synoid is a secondary weapon. It is supposed to be a backup weapon, not something you run as a primary all the time.

 

I think the nerf was justified and a balanced one. 

 

Something to take note of here;  Warframe's usage of "Primary" and "Secondary" don't follow suit with what would be considered standard across games when dealing with weapon balancing variations.  To wit;  Take a hard look at weapon uptimes (magazine sizes/reload times) as well as the per shot damaging point atop the innate Punch-through or other properties across the board here.

 

Secondaries are not sidearms or backup weapons in Warframe.  Unlike the case for standard shooters generally, they're actively about dishing out a heartier blast of punishment in a more abrupt way.  The Secondaries here don't have generally better reload times than many Primaries, some even having notably worse reload times.  This is further paramounted by the smaller ammo pool and usually smaller magazine size that are also held by Secondaries here in comparison to Primaries.  To look at other games, Sidearms will have quicker draw times, faster reloads, and overall better handling.  None of those traits are true for secondaries in Warframe.  This game just doesn't follow the normalized trend for these weapon classes.

 

Of course there are exceptions, both to Warframe's "normal" for Secondaries, and its "normal" for Primaries.  Part of the reason the SG was such an offense to the balance as it were was due to how it operated against the grain here.  That gun, in its prior form, had the sustain of a Primary with the burst of a Secondary.  As we agree, it needed nerfed.

 

----------------------

 

As far as the second line, a nerf was absolutely justified so we agree there.  I don't particularly agree that this was the correct nerf.  Yet I do think that the SG (if it is to retain its absurd damage) does need some very hard limiters in place on its usability.  Basically I feel like there are more "fun" ways to handle a decrease in usability than stuffing the weapon into the ammo-guzzler class and calling it a day.

 

I'd never want it to change from its current form to its previous one of course.  It was more broken then than it is now by a mile, and a change absolutely had to happen.  I just don't feel like this was the right one.

[gvidzix]

The gun is bad now, you can write those blocks of text, but the gun is bad as it is now.

[Skadedyr]

The gun is bad now, you can write those blocks of text, but the gun is bad as it is now.

 

And it will never get better for you if you refuse to see what those blocks of text are saying. ^^

[Skadedyr]

  Basically I feel like there are more "fun" ways to handle a decrease in usability than stuffing the weapon into the ammo-guzzler class and calling it a day.

 

I'd never want it to change from its current form to its previous one of course.  It was more broken then than it is now by a mile, and a change absolutely had to happen.  I just don't feel like this was the right one.

 

I absolutely agree with what you wrote down. 

 

What I was responding to are the people who keep saying the Synoid is crap just because it got nerfed (especially the ones who cry they no longer can do sustained long run damage with it). You still can, easily.

 

But yes, they nerfed the playstyle of it and personally I would have prefered a different nerf too (going less damage instead of turning it into an ammo guzzler). 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Skadedyr