Lets Nerf The Nerf On Synoid Gammacor

[cyrus106]

But it really does because it means your test was flawed and thus the end results aren't usable. If killing 10 level 40 bombard is enough to leave me with only 159 ammo (this is after picking up all the ammo they dropped), that paints a pretty clear picture of just how bad the SG is now.

#1 you arent going to fight 10 level 40 bombards alone, that's a strange situation and #2 I didnt even have my max dps build on, I had an even build to show the comparison between the telos and synoid. How about I re-do the level 40 bombard test with my actual dps build THEN we talk about ammo efficiency?

[SquirmyBurrito]

#1 you arent going to fight 10 level 40 bombards alone, that's a strange situation and #2 I didnt even have my max dps build on, I had an even build to show the comparison between the telos and synoid. How about I re-do the level 40 bombard test with my actual dps build THEN we talk about ammo efficiency?

 

1. Of course not, but you will be fighting 2-3 of them while also fighting 2-3 heavy gunners, the odd napalm, and a ton of high level trash mobs.

2. I was using a build with the exact same DPS you used, the only difference was I had to use the regular pistol ammo mutation mod because I don't have the primed version.

3. Sure, go ahead. But make sure your test is actually controlled this time with no ammo littered on the ground before hand.

 

No matter what you do, the SG is going to have terrible ammo economy. The higher you go in levels the worse it gets.

[cyrus106]

1. Of course not, but you will be fighting 2-3 of them while also fighting 2-3 heavy gunners, the odd napalm, and a ton of high level trash mobs.

2. I was using a build with the exact same DPS you used, the only difference was I had to use the regular pistol ammo mutation mod because I don't have the primed version.

3. Sure, go ahead. But make sure your test is actually controlled this time with no ammo littered on the ground before hand.

 

No matter what you do, the SG is going to have terrible ammo economy. The higher you go in levels the worse it gets.

Fair enough, I will do both those tests. the survival and the simalacrum

 

Survival test done. Never ran out of ammo once

 

Edited March 28, 2015 by cyrus106

[blAcE_]

Fair enough, I will do both those tests. the survival and the simalacrum

 

Survival test done. Never ran out of ammo once

 

 

This wat make the synoid op XD

Plus the synoid now have great fire rate with it so u don't need fire rate mod anymore

[SquirmyBurrito]

Fair enough, I will do both those tests. the survival and the simalacrum

 

Survival test done. Never ran out of ammo once

 

 

I noticed you started getting pretty low near the end, when enemy levels were finally starting to get close to 30. Which is pretty much exactly what the others were talking about. As enemy levels increase and TTK increases, the Synoid Gammacor's usability tanks. Either way, thanks for taking the time out of your day to create and upload these videos, I know from experience just how irritating it can be to have go through the trouble of creating a video for a thread just to have people pick at the flaws. Believe me, I know.

[Deathman_Kenshi]

Fair enough, I will do both those tests. the survival and the simalacrum

 

Survival test done. Never ran out of ammo once

 

20 mins as benchmark

Do not make ma laugh I can last 20 mins with braton

Its 40 mins + where it becomes totally useless even with mutatot for dealing with crowds

[Davoodoo]

20 mins as benchmark

Do not make ma laugh I can last 20 mins with braton

Its 40 mins + where it becomes totally useless even with mutatot for dealing with crowds

Its solo meaning that if your team did at least as much dmg as you, you would get 4 times as many ammo drops.

 

Also

Soma

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Soma prime

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Synoid gammacor

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

 

But i guess weapon firing at same rate but actually higher dmg per shot will be less ammo efficient than weapon with lower dmg and same firing rate.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Marthrym]

Toning down ammo consumption? Yes plox.

 

Sick and tired of ammo-eaters. And the stupid "use ammo mod" comments that make me *facepalm* so hard. Or rather *facedesk*...

Edited March 29, 2015 by Marthrym

[LazyKnight]

Its solo meaning that if your team did at least as much dmg as you, you would get 4 times as many ammo drops.

 

Also

Soma

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Soma prime

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Synoid gammacor

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

 

But i guess weapon firing at same rate but actually higher dmg per shot will be less ammo efficient than weapon with lower dmg and same firing rate.

Three points:

 

First: Continues weapons have a 1/10 second delay before any damage number is shown, and this makes people over-tap because of it. It adds up the next interval at the 4/10 second mark, it's not something that can be changed without macro firing. This makes this weapon type harder for some people to gauge how much ammo is required to kill 'x' target. Where as a weapon like Soma will show the NPCs dead far quicker than any beam weapon.

 

Second: Soma gets a bonus on head shots, even if only 1/3-2/3 of hits hit the head it is a massive increase in the effectiveness of the weapon. Aiming at head it's not optional with Soma (or prime), as that head-shot damage compared to a body hit is just flat out not worth it.

 

Third: People use lethal torrent. This makes problem 1 way worse.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Otaiken]

I hate ammo efficiency as a balance factor great deal. It shouldn't exist imho as it makes entire weapon families inferior.

 

SG needed a nerf. But it needed a playstyle shift. The limited range was not limited enough for the advantages this weapon enjoyed. So further limit the range, give the weapon a close range DPS machine niche (risk vs reward). Spin up time/range things like that.

 

Imho ammo consumption just makes the weapon more annoying to use it adds very little to the playstyle of the weapon. This is not a tactical shooter.

 

So yeah, the ammo consumption could be a bit less. And I say that as someone who was heavily for the nerf. Balance should be an ongoing process, keep the discussion going.

 

That said, DE is bad at balance and Sammacor will stay the way it is or get overbuffed again. And given the rate at which we get balance changes... don't touch it anymore I'd say.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[bl4ckhunter]

Its solo meaning that if your team did at least as much dmg as you, you would get 4 times as many ammo drops.

 

Also

Soma

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Soma prime

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

Synoid gammacor

Firing Rate 15.0 rounds/sec

 

But i guess weapon firing at same rate but actually higher dmg per shot will be less ammo efficient than weapon with lower dmg and same firing rate.

ninjad by lazyknight

while i've heard a lot of reasonable arguments in favor of the gammacor even if i do not share them this is the most idiotic comparison i've ever i've ever heard, you don't even know what you're talking about, soma is crit based wich means that you get an average of 63 dmg per bullet wich is far FAR highter than what the synoid gammacor gets and you get the crit multiplier stacked on headshots, if you were to make a  comparison to a primary you could've at least choosen another weapon 

Edited March 29, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[Davoodoo]

Three points:

 

First: Continues weapons have a 1/10 second delay before any damage number is shown, and this makes people over-tap because of it. It adds up the next interval at the 4/10 second mark, it's not something that can be changed without macro firing. This makes this weapon type harder for some people to gauge how much ammo is required to kill 'x' target. Where as a weapon like Soma will show the NPCs dead far quicker than any beam weapon.

 

Second: Soma gets a bonus on head shots, even if only 1/3-2/3 of hits hit the head it is a massive increase in the effectiveness of the weapon. Aiming at head it's not optional with Soma (or prime), as that head-shot damage compared to a body hit is just flat out not worth it.

 

Third: People use lethal torrent. This makes problem 1 way worse.

 

ninjad by lazyknight

while i've heard a lot of reasonable arguments in favor of the gammacor even if i do not share them this is the most idiotic comparison i've ever i've ever heard, you don't even know what you're talking about, soma is crit based wich means that you get an average of 63 dmg per bullet wich is far FAR highter than what the synoid gammacor gets and you get the crit multiplier stacked on headshots, if you were to make a  comparison to a primary you could've at least choosen another weapon 

While crit weapons get x4 multiplier on headshot while non crit ones get "only" x2 dmg they also have 2 additional slots filled by elemental mods making up for that difference, then secondaries have 220% dmg increase versus primaries 330% but 180% multishot bonus vs 90% on primaries.

 

Synoid actually does more dmg per ammo used than soma.

 

Then soma actually isnt any easier to use, unless you know exactly how many bullets you use your dps will suffer greatly(its already lower than synoid) or you will overtap. Discipline affects both weapons.

Then its a problem only when youre oneshotting mobs and theres really no real way to run out of ammo at that phase.

 

Speed trigger and vile accel are also a thing and ppl use them on soma, shred gives you advantage over any secondary but from what i talked to ppl really few use it.

As side note once you put shred its usually better to aim at center of mass to get additional punch throughs which makes headshot argument pretty void.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Davoodoo

[LazyKnight]

Synoid actually does more dmg per ammo used than soma.l punch throughs which makes headshot argument pretty void.

That is a straw-man and not the point. Soma is not a body-shot weapon and that is an immutable fact. If you're using punch on it you're using the wrong weapon and wasting ammo; hint there's a thing called Boltor prime and Amprex.

 

Soma is one of the worst weapons in game to hit the body, if you're using that way, your either not using it properly or fighting pitifully low level NPCs.

 

The math would be [(2*.25)+ (4*.75)] = 3.5x damage for a head a head-shot compared to 1 x for a body shot. 

 

Your backpedaling and trying to change the argument by using Punch though or other mods a deflections. Soma and all the other critical hit weapons gain and advantage that raise their damage potential to the same tier as boltor prime or close to it just by getting a good portion of their hits as heads shots.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[bl4ckhunter]

That is a straw-man and not the point. Soma is not a body-shot weapon and that is an immutable fact. If you're using punch on it you're using the wrong weapon and wasting ammo; hint there's a thing called Boltor prime and Amprex.

 

even if i do agree on what you're saying the amprex actually benefits from headshots even more than the soma prime and it's pretty accurate to boot tbh 

 

Synoid actually does more dmg per ammo used than soma.

nope. it just doesn't and it never will. not even with build specialized for dpr (which are sub optimal for the soma and outright terrible for the gammacor)

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Synoid_Gammacor/t_30_43000000_193-3-5-195-5-5-196-0-5-202-6-5-204-2-10-206-4-5-207-7-10-209-1-5_196-6-209-6-204-14-193-11-206-11-195-11-202-11-207-14/en/3-0-55

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Soma_prime/t_30_22000000_131-5-5-132-1-5-133-6-5-137-0-10-140-3-5-141-7-5-150-2-10-159-4-5_137-7-132-8-150-16-140-9-159-9-131-11-133-11-141-11/en/2-0-65/

 

that leaves obivious how much superior the soma is if you take into account the above mentioned factors

Edited March 29, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[LazyKnight]

even if i do agree on what you're saying the amprex actually benefits from headshots even more than the soma prime and it's pretty accurate to boot tbh

Amprex=Boltor prime when Amprex is chaining more than 3 NPC with body-shots. Boltor prime can also get some multiple hits if target dies so it's largely an issue of setup of the NPCs.

 

If you're aiming at the first target's head Amprex blows Boltor prime out of the water. It makes that big of a difference to aim.

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

It doesnt matter if it would be better if you shot at head, most of the cases where you face off high lvl enemies and its beneficial to actually kill them which are pretty much survival and defense have you fire at crowds and you can line up anywhere from 4 to 10 targets at regular basis.

From x4 to x10 is still > x3.5.

 

We have no real content where single target dps is actually needed, punchthrough is a way to go.

 

-snip-

If you want to put 3rd element on soma ill then use my primed heated charge

http://goo.gl/ODi5K6

Using that build soma will indeed win, not that ive seen many ppl use it since its actually dps loss.

100 dmg difference using top dmg per bullet, i guess that 5% difference is all that takes for a weapon to go from "yeah ammo is no big problem" to "it runs out of ammo nearly instantly".

 

In the end however

 

We can all argue which one will be better against what and on what circumstances in the end however synoid isnt anywhere near less ammo efficient than soma which was actually pretty ammo efficient and no one was complaining.

Whenever 1 runs out of ammo other will run out in less than a minute and after that point you wont be able to keep up with ammo.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Davoodoo

[LazyKnight]

We have no real content where single target dps is actually needed, punchthrough is a way to go.

I run voids a lot, the only time that NPCs line-up is if you are using a corner or a door to funnel them. If you take a look at the number of times you're not hitting anything with punch the mods benefit is dependent on the map's layout and if you're making the Ai do something. 

 

The NPCs are more likely to stand in formation with no NPCs behind them, yet a few to their sides. This is why Amprex is so much better for voids than nearly any other weapon in game with punch. 

 

Grineer light units with guns and corpus crewmen are the NPCs types that will go along a wall and hide, proving a punch through option for many. Infested are just find a corner and shot them as they clump, single target with them is just dumb.

 

 

We can all argue which one will be better against what and on what circumstances in the end however synoid isnt anywhere near less ammo efficient than soma which was actually pretty ammo efficient and no one was complaining.

Whenever 1 runs out of ammo other will run out in less than a minute and after that point you wont be able to keep up with ammo.

It has the same problem, but one has mitigation path that has a workaround via skill. Synoid problem is the same as Kohmak's, there is no way to get around the ammo problem, without ammo pads. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Heidrek]

Can someone answer my question, WHY DO YOU WANT THE SYNOID GAMMACOR THE WAY IT IS NOW? It's obvious no one is going to put in the effort for a weapon that's a minuteman 
Let's make a challenge. I want a DEV to bring a loadout with just the synoid gammacor and see if he/she can last in 1 hour of survival.
RULE:
NO FORMA, NO PRIMED MODS, and NO "PRESS 4 TO WIN" FRAME
 

EDIT: When I say "Press 4 to win" I mean no ability spamming.
EDIT 2: You can have a mellee weapon with life strike. Can not use Mellee more than Secondary. Otherwise it's out.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Heidrek

[Absens]

Can someone answer my question, WHY DO YOU WANT THE SYNOID GAMMACOR THE WAY IT IS NOW? It's obvious no one is going to put in the effort for a weapon that's a minuteman 

Let's make a challenge. I want a DEV to bring a loadout with just the synoid gammacor and see if he/she can last in 1 hour of survival.

RULE:

NO FORMA, NO PRIMED MODS, and NO "PRESS 4 TO WIN" FRAME

 

EDIT: When I say "Press 4 to win" I mean no ability spamming.

Is this a criteria now?

So you were able to survive an hour before just with the synoid gammacor.

And you are angry because they nerfed that "perfectly balanced" weapon :'(

Grow up

[Davoodoo]

Can someone answer my question, WHY DO YOU WANT THE SYNOID GAMMACOR THE WAY IT IS NOW? It's obvious no one is going to put in the effort for a weapon that's a minuteman 

Let's make a challenge. I want a DEV to bring a loadout with just the synoid gammacor and see if he/she can last in 1 hour of survival.

RULE:

NO FORMA, NO PRIMED MODS, and NO "PRESS 4 TO WIN" FRAME

 

EDIT: When I say "Press 4 to win" I mean no ability spamming.

FIrst i want you to actually make such loadout for any weapon, at least 1.

 

The problem wont be ammo efficiency or even dps but your survival rate which got nothing to do with weapon.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Davoodoo

[LazyKnight]

Can someone answer my question, WHY DO YOU WANT THE SYNOID GAMMACOR THE WAY IT IS NOW? It's obvious no one is going to put in the effort for a weapon that's a minuteman 

Let's make a challenge. I want a DEV to bring a loadout with just the synoid gammacor and see if he/she can last in 1 hour of survival.

Simpler test is 30-35 minutes on T3 survival, NPCs get to a decent level. Mesa, Chroma and Loki can easily get to that point to test a weapon. T4 can be done solo to the 40 minute mark (getting past 35 is hard), but only weapons I found that can go that high are melee weapons with combs.

 

The EHP of the NPCs scales exponential. The difference in durably from a level 40 to 60 is rather larger. Going past level 80s requires corrosive or 4x projections because heavy gunners at that ranges have thousands of points of armor.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Bobtm]

Can someone answer my question, WHY DO YOU WANT THE SYNOID GAMMACOR THE WAY IT IS NOW? It's obvious no one is going to put in the effort for a weapon that's a minuteman 

Let's make a challenge. I want a DEV to bring a loadout with just the synoid gammacor and see if he/she can last in 1 hour of survival.

RULE:

NO FORMA, NO PRIMED MODS, and NO "PRESS 4 TO WIN" FRAME

 

EDIT: When I say "Press 4 to win" I mean no ability spamming.

 

That's just nonsensical entirely.  Saying a developer has to do it is silly at the start, and saying that no Forma is allowed yet they need to reach the one-hour mark in a Survival (I'm assuming you mean T4 even though you didn't specify) when...

 

Well Forma is a progression tool.  An hour into T4S isn't meant to be a baseline gameplay point players reach without effort through progression and a combination of mods or other tools.  So the test/challenge you're putting forth exists in a flawed place in every concievable way.

_________

 

The way in which the Synoid Gammacor was nerfed has created a tricky situation.  Ammo economy is always an odd thing on weapons as a balancing point for sure.  Regardless of all else, it is undeniable that the SG was notably overpowered in its prior form assuredly.  The only parameter that changed was its ammo economy, so this creates a breaking point when using only this balance change.

 

With rifles in Warframe currently, it feels more managable overall.  Their ammo pickups are meatier, and they have much greater ammo pools which helps to stock up between killin' bursts.  Drastically increasing the maximum ammo count that the SG is allotted could be a way to help alleviate its problem potentially, but that of course too needs to be handled with care so as to not negate the point of the balancing change.

 

If they give the SG enough ammo economy so that it never runs out of ammo, then the change itself has no reason to exist.  If they give the SG an ammmo economy where it swiftly runs out of ammo, players clearly don't enjoy it.

 

The weapon's got damage capabilities on an absurd level, so changes to it are just odd in general.  If they forgoe weakening its ability to dish out that damage, any change it incurs must be one on its reliable usability.  While doing so would be a boring path, they could try and enact a change that is similar to how the Phage functions for instance.

 

As a hypothetical thought;  Upon starting to fire the SG, its beam range only reaches 0.5 meters.  It increases in length by 0.5 meters for every 0.75 seconds that it is held down, firing continuously.  While not firing, its maximum range begins to decay at a rate of 0.5 meters for every 1 second.  If you are aiming down your sights, the rates are modified by 50% gain/loss in the favor of the player.  Meaning that your beam grows 50% faster while aming, and shrinks 50% slower while aiming and not firing.

 

Of couse that's just a rough thought that was thrown together entirely off the top of my head.  By no means do I consider it workable/proper.  It's more the concept rather than the exact numbers.

 

Then there's the idea of changing the weapon's uptime, but I've covered that too many times and nobody seems to have any real interest in that notion.

 

This then leaves the final possibility, just smacking the weapon's damage dealing capabilities so that it no longer needs to have harsh usability limitations.

[Heidrek]

FIrst i want you to actually make such loadout for any weapon, at least 1.

 

The problem wont be ammo efficiency or even dps but your survival rate which got nothing to do with weapon.

I could bring just my vaykor marelok and still survive, heck I don't even need a mellee weapon. 

 

Is this a criteria now?

So you were able to survive an hour before just with the synoid gammacor.

And you are angry because they nerfed that "perfectly balanced" weapon :'(

Grow up

It should be a criteria, because I could do that with a vaykor marelok. Now, so Should we nerf both the marelok and vaykor marelok?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Heidrek

[Heidrek]

Simpler test is 30-35 minutes on T3 survival, NPCs get to a decent level. Mesa, Chroma and Loki can easily get to that point to test a weapon. T4 can be done solo to the 40 minute mark (getting past 35 is hard), but only weapons I found that can go that high are melee weapons with combs.

 

The EHP of the NPCs scales exponential. The difference in durably from a level 40 to 60 is rather larger. Going past level 80s requires corrosive or 4x projections because heavy gunners at that ranges have thousands of points of armor.

Well I meant solo, but ok.

[LazyKnight]

The way in which the Synoid Gammacor was nerfed has created a tricky situation.  Ammo economy is always an odd thing on weapons as a balancing point for sure.  Regardless of all else, it is undeniable that the SG was notably overpowered in its prior form assuredly.  The only parameter that changed was its ammo economy, so this creates a breaking point when using only this balance change.

The problem with ammo being a balancing mechanism is this game is not all about extermination mission with a fixed number of NPCs. The reason that this is not something that works is partially due to the fact that ammo puck-ups are static and that NPCs out scale all the low base damage weapons by 40. This is because they can not keep up with the ehp of the NPCs and still get enough ammo pick-ups affer the kill to stay out of deficit (that assumes perfect 100% accuracy). 

 

This is not something that is a functional balancing mechanism, unless DE hard caps the game at level 30, why did they make raids 80?. Not being dramatic or exaggerating here, but all the pistols that have lower than 30( base) damage per hit (forgot what exact number was for rifles) a wall at 40 solely based on their pitiful ammo pick-ups.

 

DE would need to have an ammo 2.0 to fix this issue, because all bad ammo economy does is lock a weapon out of going past 40.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight