Lets Nerf The Nerf On Synoid Gammacor

[LazyKnight]

Who would use the Synoid Gammacor over the vaykor marelok/rakta ballistica?

Only reason I see someone using it over the those 2, is when they are in a group and are getting shared affinity to proc the syndicate effect. Or during an extermination missions.

 

Still, I would not be surprised if the nerf bandwagon goes after the Marelok (both versions), Rakta ballistica, and Brakk next. It will never end, until every weapon in the game is zero-summed.

Edited March 31, 2015 by LazyKnight

[manub]

I was a SG user & admit that it needed a nerf bad, it was way too powerful

But while i admit this, I am also of the opinion that the changes overnerfed it

The ammo consumption is now unholy. No dps discussion here, just ammo consumption

That it needed to have its ammo efficiency decreased i agree, but i feel this is far too much. Even with a max prime ammo conversion mod, users will find themselves dry alarmingly often

Now i m not for the return of the old SG, but i think some tweak to improve its efficiency a little would be welcome

Edited March 31, 2015 by manub

[Heidrek]

Only reason I see someone using it over the those 2, is when they are in a group and are getting shared affinity to proc the syndicate effect. Or during an extermination missions.

 

Still, I would not be surprised if the nerf bandwagon goes after the Marelok (both versions), Rakta ballistica, and Brakk next. It will never end, until every weapon in the game is zero-summed.

No need for that powercreep is on the way

[Pizzarugi]

Uh the Brakk did get a nerf in the form of damage falloff.

 

Now before I continue on, I'm not saying the Synoid Gammacore couldn't ever do with another look.  If you were willing to take a reduction to damage to regain some of that sustainability I'd have no reason to argue against that.  But its power is still pretty darn obscene compared to practically every other weaon in the entire game.

 

Suffice it to say, the range limiter on the Synoid Gammacore was not a feasibly appropriate drawback for a weapon of its raw power.  By looking at only straight numbers it wouldn't appear as though this weapon was more "broken" than the Brakk/Marelok, however stats don't tell the whole story.  So long as you were in range (which again, isn't even remotely hard) you could legitimately just sweep the SG across a field of foes and they'd all instantly die.  It's enormous magazine, pinpoint accuracy, moderate reload speed, and insanely low ammo draw all played into its ludicrous level of power.  By contrast, as strong as something like the Marelok is, it has a capped killing speed based on its fire rate and reload speed.  It can never dream of killing the same number of enemies as swiftly as the SG could've.  Same trend applies to the Brakk.

 

Before you go thinking I say this out of bias;  Lex Prime for life.

 

As it stands, the SG is still the absolute king of immediate burst damage without the need of a headshot/charge time across all weapons.  It's changed from its previous form of an infinite death ray to a limited death ray.  Thing is still a freaking death ray, you just are only able to utilize it for an apt level of time for that level of power.

 

Rather than having gone for the easy route of just wallopping its damage, DE went with an interesting route of hitting it in another area.  It's still a good and usable weapon so long as you are able to be conservative with it.  I actually prefer the balance changes that are more interesting as this one, opposed to the simple way of lower the statistical parameters.

 

Everything is up for change, even the newly nerfed SG.  But don't fool yourself into thinking it's weak now, or into believing it'll be buffed needlessly.

I stopped reading when you said SG has the best burst damage. If you run both SG and brakk through a builder and DPS calculator, brakk has almost twice the burst damage and is only beaten by SG in sustained DPS by a couple hundred points.

The biggest difference? Brakk doesn't eat NEARLY as much ammo, nor does it need a mutation mod.

SG has been grossly overnerfed. In order to keep using it like before, you need to use both a mutation mod and a pistol scavenger aura. While forcing people to use mutation is a fair enough nerf to cut on its DPS, it loses its endgame viability because you lose corrosive projection in order to keep using the weapon.

DE should've cut its excess DPS and damage down to be on par with other syndicate weapons, not give it one of the most god awful ammo economies.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Pizzarugi

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I admit I made a mistake on my Boltor Prime build. Using Piercing Caliber on my Boltor Prime build would have moderately increased the DPS, making the DPS difference between it and the Synoid significantly smaller.

 

The Synoid still has higher DPS, though.

 

For those of you that say DPS isn't everything:

 

My Boltor Prime build empties a full clip in just over 3 seconds. My Synoid Gammacor build empties a full clip in exactly 4 seconds. The Synoid can fire longer without reloading.

 

My Boltor Prime build has extreme ammo problems with Vile Acceleration and no Ammo Mutation. The Synoid with Ammo Mutation has higher DPS than the Boltor Prime without Ammo Mutation.

 

The Synoid is 100% accurate, has no recoil, and is hitscan (for the most part). The Boltor Prime is none of these things.

 

The Synoid has a 25m range cap, but the Boltor Prime is weak at range too because it isn't hitscan.

 

The Synoid is flat-out better no matter how you look at it. If it's useless after the nerf, then the Boltor Prime must shoot thumbtacks.

Edited March 31, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[dddeath]

I understand the nerf but now I "wasted" 6 forma and a potato on it

lesson learned: if weapon stats looks a little OP, wait a few months before committing to it

I threw out the two fire rate mods and put ammo mutation and clip size on it. they could have just nerfed the damage instead like 30% instead of @(*()$ with fire rate and stuff

Edited March 31, 2015 by dddeath

[Pizzarugi]

I admit I made a mistake on my Boltor Prime build. Using Piercing Caliber on my Boltor Prime build would have moderately increased the DPS, making the DPS difference between it and the Synoid significantly smaller.

 

The Synoid still has higher DPS, though.

 

For those of you that say DPS isn't everything:

 

My Boltor Prime build empties a full clip in just over 3 seconds. My Synoid Gammacor build empties a full clip in exactly 4 seconds. The Synoid can fire longer without reloading.

 

My Boltor Prime build has extreme ammo problems with Vile Acceleration and no Ammo Mutation. The Synoid with Ammo Mutation has higher DPS than the Boltor Prime without Ammo Mutation.

 

The Synoid is 100% accurate, has no recoil, and is hitscan (for the most part). The Boltor Prime is none of these things.

 

The Synoid has a 25m range cap, but the Boltor Prime is weak at range too because it isn't hitscan.

 

The Synoid is flat-out better no matter how you look at it. If it's useless after the nerf, then the Boltor Prime must shoot thumbtacks.

Unlike the synoid, the boltor's projectiles knock corpses back and does additional damage to enemies behind it. In dense crowds, spraying boltor into them is going to give you a significant amount more damage than SG ever will.

Perhaps the reason your boltor's DPS is less than SG and eats more ammo is probably because you're using a corrupted mod that actually reduces its damage.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Unlike the synoid, the boltor's projectiles knock corpses back and does additional damage to enemies behind it. In dense crowds, spraying boltor into them is going to give you a significant amount more damage than SG ever will.

 

Situational at best. The chance that the ragdoll will actually hit anything outside of a hallway is basically nil. In hallways, though, it probably would be preferable to have a Boltor Prime.

 

I forgot to mention that the Synoid is also vastly better at headshots, due to its 100% accuracy, no recoil, and hitscan nature.

 

Perhaps the reason your boltor's DPS is less than SG and eats more ammo is probably because you're using a corrupted mod that actually reduces its damage.

 

Replacing Vile Acceleration with another elemental lowered the burst DPS by about 15k and the sustained by about 4k.

Edited March 31, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[SquirmyBurrito]

Honestly, I currently plan on switching to the Rakta Ballistica as soon as I finish ranking Red Veil up (takes a while since I'm leveling it via Steel Meridian). After that my 4xForma'd Synoid Gammacor is going in the closet until DE changes the SG.

[Mxysptlik]

Uh the Brakk did get a nerf in the form of damage falloff.

 

Now before I continue on, I'm not saying the Synoid Gammacore couldn't ever do with another look.  If you were willing to take a reduction to damage to regain some of that sustainability I'd have no reason to argue against that.  But its power is still pretty darn obscene compared to practically every other weaon in the entire game.

 

Suffice it to say, the range limiter on the Synoid Gammacore was not a feasibly appropriate drawback for a weapon of its raw power.  By looking at only straight numbers it wouldn't appear as though this weapon was more "broken" than the Brakk/Marelok, however stats don't tell the whole story.  So long as you were in range (which again, isn't even remotely hard) you could legitimately just sweep the SG across a field of foes and they'd all instantly die.  It's enormous magazine, pinpoint accuracy, moderate reload speed, and insanely low ammo draw all played into its ludicrous level of power.  By contrast, as strong as something like the Marelok is, it has a capped killing speed based on its fire rate and reload speed.  It can never dream of killing the same number of enemies as swiftly as the SG could've.  Same trend applies to the Brakk.

 

Before you go thinking I say this out of bias;  Lex Prime for life.

 

As it stands, the SG is still the absolute king of immediate burst damage without the need of a headshot/charge time across all weapons.  It's changed from its previous form of an infinite death ray to a limited death ray.  Thing is still a freaking death ray, you just are only able to utilize it for an apt level of time for that level of power.

 

Rather than having gone for the easy route of just wallopping its damage, DE went with an interesting route of hitting it in another area.  It's still a good and usable weapon so long as you are able to be conservative with it.  I actually prefer the balance changes that are more interesting as this one, opposed to the simple way of lower the statistical parameters.

 

Everything is up for change, even the newly nerfed SG.  But don't fool yourself into thinking it's weak now, or into believing it'll be buffed needlessly.

 

This guy read my mind, but since I'm not as eloquent and tend to run-on in my posts I'm glad to say:

 

+1 This

[Bobtm]

I stopped reading when you said SG has the best burst damage. If you run both SG and brakk through a builder and DPS calculator, brakk has almost twice the burst damage and is only beaten by SG in sustained DPS by a couple hundred points.

The biggest difference? Brakk doesn't eat NEARLY as much ammo, nor does it need a mutation mod.

SG has been grossly overnerfed. In order to keep using it like before, you need to use both a mutation mod and a pistol scavenger aura. While forcing people to use mutation is a fair enough nerf to cut on its DPS, it loses its endgame viability because you lose corrosive projection in order to keep using the weapon.

DE should've cut its excess DPS and damage down to be on par with other syndicate weapons, not give it one of the most god awful ammo economies.

 

Two things to take note of here;

• DPS calculators (I'm guessing you used Warframe Builder?) are wildly innacurate in a shockingly large number of cases.  They display so much information that is very misleading and really can't be trusted as a viable source of what weapons are actually capable of.  I trust my own understanding of a game and its mechanics much more than I do of that and other calculators which have been proven to show false/incorrect DPS numbers on many occasions. 
• I actually too don't think the ammo nerf was the right way to go.  Maybe next time you should actually read a whole post instead of kneejerk over one discrepency you have with it.

 

I still stand by everything I said in that post.  The SG was clearly too strong, but the nerf it got isn't the only route that could've been taken.  It will never go back to the way it was, but that doesn't mean it'll stay the way it is.  The core is to be constructive and think hard about what weapons are truely capable of and approach these issues in a reasonable manner while pushing personal bias aside.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

• DPS calculators (I'm guessing you used Warframe Builder?) are wildly innacurate in a shockingly large number of cases.  They display so much information that is very misleading and really can't be trusted as a viable source of what weapons are actually capable of.  I trust my own understanding of a game and its mechanics much more than I do of that and other calculators which have been proven to show false/incorrect DPS numbers on many occasions. 

 

While this is true (Kohm being an example of it being misleading) that doesn't change the fact that what that poster said about the Brakk is true. The brakk is a monster that has all of the SG's weaknesses (plus a few) with the only exception being terrible ammo economy. Unlike the SG, it can also be used for status and or crits without being gimped by continuous weapon mechanics. I have no idea why people don't use it much anymore. 

[Bobtm]

While this is true (Kohm being an example of it being misleading) that doesn't change the fact that what that poster said about the Brakk is true. The brakk is a monster that has all of the SG's weaknesses (plus a few) with the only exception being terrible ammo economy. Unlike the SG, it can also be used for status and or crits without being gimped by continuous weapon mechanics. I have no idea why people don't use it much anymore. 

 

Yeah, the Brakk truely is a powerhouse that's oddly underrated/underused these days.  All in all this sort of touches on the whole uptime thing I've prattled on about a few times.  Look at how the Brakk's mag size, reload speed, and firing rate play off of one another.  The previous form of SG was just laserswiping for what felt like days with a proposterous uptime and few reasonable/appropriate downsides.

 

Once the Brakk got falloff it didn't really feel broken or anything.  It's definitely a solid gun.  While a limited range is totally comparable to falloff in a very direct way, the other differences that set the SG and Brakk apart are what kept the former from being in an ideal place balancing wise.

 

I'd never discount the Brakk, but it's got a more reasonable degree of use to its power.  The Marelok falls into the same niche but with markable differences.  Ammo economy is generally a very strange thing across guns in Warframe at the moment.  Given a simple look across various weapons in the different general "tiers" shows a clear issue.  Some weapons just struggle with ammo while others don't, yet none of it feels right.  There's really no middle-ground with them currently.

 

If we ever get an ammo overhaul (ammo 2.0) maybe that'll change... but I can't say I'm optimistic about that being the case.  Given the nature of Warframe I can't see "normal" ammo ever really working to a reasonable degree what with RNG and foe swarms.  Going with standard drop pickups guns would probably still be black and white, some which always struggle with ammo while others never do.  Of course there is the possibility of battery powered guns which just auto-regenerate ammo.  That would hard cap usability on guns that have it, but that's something else entirely where it could potentially solve many issues or it could just be annoying.

[Heidrek]

I admit I made a mistake on my Boltor Prime build. Using Piercing Caliber on my Boltor Prime build would have moderately increased the DPS, making the DPS difference between it and the Synoid significantly smaller.

The Synoid still has higher DPS, though.

For those of you that say DPS isn't everything:

My Boltor Prime build empties a full clip in just over 3 seconds. My Synoid Gammacor build empties a full clip in exactly 4 seconds. The Synoid can fire longer without reloading.

My Boltor Prime build has extreme ammo problems with Vile Acceleration and no Ammo Mutation. The Synoid with Ammo Mutation has higher DPS than the Boltor Prime without Ammo Mutation.

The Synoid is 100% accurate, has no recoil, and is hitscan (for the most part). The Boltor Prime is none of these things.

The Synoid has a 25m range cap, but the Boltor Prime is weak at range too because it isn't hitscan.

The Synoid is flat-out better no matter how you look at it. If it's useless after the nerf, then the Boltor Prime must shoot thumbtacks.

Is everything stats to you? Try playing the game is not hard to shoot a mob with the boltor prime 50 meters away and yes I've tried. The travel time is non existent because the bolts are so fast. Even if they were slow, all anyone would have to do is lead the target. That's the first thing ANYONE learns when using a bolt weapon. And the dps is not that big of a difference at that point.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

Two things to take note of here;

• DPS calculators (I'm guessing you used Warframe Builder?) are wildly innacurate in a shockingly large number of cases.  They display so much information that is very misleading and really can't be trusted as a viable source of what weapons are actually capable of.  I trust my own understanding of a game and its mechanics much more than I do of that and other calculators which have been proven to show false/incorrect DPS numbers on many occasions. 
• I actually too don't think the ammo nerf was the right way to go.  Maybe next time you should actually read a whole post instead of kneejerk over one discrepency you have with it.

 

 

I still stand by everything I said in that post.  The SG was clearly too strong, but the nerf it got isn't the only route that could've been taken.  It will never go back to the way it was, but that doesn't mean it'll stay the way it is.  The core is to be constructive and think hard about what weapons are truely capable of and approach these issues in a reasonable manner while pushing personal bias aside.

Frankly, I think the best nerf to the synoid would be a range nerf down to 10-15 meters, leaving the rest of it intact or maybe increasing ammo consumption by 2x or 3x of its pre nerf levels.

The DPS in of itself is not particularly "overpowered" unless you're just comparing DPS and now how effective a weapon is in actual gameplay.

 

 

 

and is hitscan (for the most part)

 

No it isn't. The synoid is only hitscan after a short delay, just like most other beam weapons in this game. This is a problem because it makes gauging how much ammo to use on an enemy much more difficult with its obscene rate of fire. This is, in fact, a large part of the reason why the Synoid's handling is so poor now. The beam extends faster now, but it sure isn't hitscan.

 

Before you could compensate by waving the synoid around like a lightsaber, but with the ammo nerf that's impossible now.

 

You guys who're constantly bringing up DPS as the final arbiter of weapon balance really need to actually play the game instead of theorycrafting.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Bobtm]

Frankly, I think the best nerf to the synoid would be a range nerf down to 10-15 meters, leaving the rest of it intact or maybe increasing ammo consumption by 2x or 3x of its pre nerf levels.

The DPS in of itself is not particularly "overpowered" unless you're just comparing DPS and now how effective a weapon is in actual gameplay.

 

I definitely agree, leaving its DPS high is a rather interesting route that I think needs to be kept at the forefront.  Nerfs don't always need to be about damage.  Of course damage/DPS nerfs also can't just be outlawed, every gun/item can be looked at in its own light.

 

The range thing with a note to potential ammo changes is totally something to explore, of course so are other thoughts.  What the rough part about this type of discussion is, is that it leads into constant hypotheticals.  While some can make reasonably accurate educated guesses based solely on ideals.  It's sort of impossible to get a real feel for the ideas without being able to actively test them out against one another.

[Neogeo]

I decided to forma my Synoid one more time because I keep running out of ammo with normal pistol mutation. So I slapped a rank 8 Prime mutation on my now 5th forma Synoid. To my surprise, I run out of ammo at 38 minutes of T4S. The main reason is because of the Nullifier bubble took too much ammo to shrink. This is really sad consider Synoid used to be the goto gun for Nullifier bubble. Now it has no place whatsoever in my loadout. Why would I use Synoid? The top tier primary serve better and if I ever need a fast firing or high damage single shot pistol to complement my primary weapon, there are much better choice. Sayonara Synoid, I will let it rot in my inventory along with all the other mastery fodders

[letir]

Sayonara Synoid, I will let it rot in my inventory along with all the other mastery fodders

Best burst gun in game, with decent ammo problems and without any other sufficient drawbacks is mastery fodder now?

 

Okay.

Edited April 1, 2015 by letir

[Davoodoo]

While this is true (Kohm being an example of it being misleading) that doesn't change the fact that what that poster said about the Brakk is true. The brakk is a monster that has all of the SG's weaknesses (plus a few) with the only exception being terrible ammo economy. Unlike the SG, it can also be used for status and or crits without being gimped by continuous weapon mechanics. I have no idea why people don't use it much anymore. 

Because it got much lower range and it reaches theoretical dps only if you click 8 times per second and dont miss even 1 pellet, also as shotgun status chance is divided by number of pellets and 15% crit isnt any more worth of crit build than 10%.

[Heidrek]

Best burst gun in game, with decent ammo problems and without any other sufficient drawbacks is mastery fodder now?

 

Okay.

It was not the burst dmg that was good it was the sustained. It's burst dmg isn't even in the top ten dude.

[Heidrek]

Best burst gun in game, with decent ammo problems and without any other sufficient drawbacks is mastery fodder now?

 

Okay.

Proof that this guy hasn't really played around with the his guns enough, you forgot the explosive secondaries, semi autos, and the shotgun secondaries.

[Pizzarugi]

Best burst gun in game, with decent ammo problems and without any other sufficient drawbacks is mastery fodder now?

 

Okay.

Nope, brakk is best burst.

Yes, its mastery fodder now. Its not even endgame viable anymore now that you have to use both a mutation mod and a pistol scavenger to keep its ammo stocked in high leveled missions.

[letir]

Proof that this guy hasn't really played around with the his guns enough, you forgot the explosive secondaries, semi autos, and the shotgun secondaries.

Shotguns can't do a S#&$ after 10m. And they have spread on top of that.

Semi auto guns aren't universal enough, you can't just swipe enemies with them.

Explosive secondary can kill you, and have low ammo.

 

I guess, you can't even use DPS builder, leave aside your actual game experience with SG.

[letir]

Nope, brakk is best burst.

Yes, its mastery fodder now. Its not even endgame viable anymore now that you have to use both a mutation mod and a pistol scavenger to keep its ammo stocked in high leveled missions.

Brakk falling out on 10m, and have pretty big spread.

SG still can produce headshots on 25m.

 

Now player have a reason to actually switch his weapon sometimes or throw ammo pad, aim carefully, etc. Which is good kind of "nerf".

P.S. Wanna talk about ammo problems? Try Twin Vipers.

[Callback]

The nerf was overkill, for sure, but it was in the right direction.

 

Cut the ammo down from 15 to 7.5, and halve the clip size.  The change to force reloading an interrupt the damage is fine, and a good change to the infinite stream from before.  The ammo is beyond insane tho, and did go way too far overboard.