De Is Planning To Add Elemental Mod To Pvp 2.0 (Devstream #49)

[Ronyn]

You see, for me that's a good thing. :) 

I play some games with a fast TTK and enjoy them. However I don't think a fast TTK is really compatible with several of warframes systems.

If warframe is going to take advantage of all of it's systems it needs to design core factors like TTK with all of them in mind. 

 

For example: what is the point of melee combos if the first hit were to kill? We would end up focusing on the quick rush in kill instead of the back and forth where combo systems show their real worth. It's the same problem we have right now with how powers kill so fast. Much of the interaction of well timed power verses power usage is not happening right now. Its just who ever grabs energy and unleashes it first. It's not going to get better by making weapons kill faster...it will just cheapen their interaction along with powers. The game will become more and more a "I see you, you die" situation where the true depth of warframe gets lost.  

[Burnthesteak87]

I play some games with a fast TTK and enjoy them. However I don't think a fast TTK is really compatible with several of warframes systems.

If warframe is going to take advantage of all of it's systems it needs to design core factors like TTK with all of them in mind. 

 

For example: what is the point of melee combos if the first hit were to kill? We would end up focusing on the quick rush in kill instead of the back and forth where combo systems show their real worth. It's the same problem we have right now with how powers kill so fast. Much of the interaction of well timed power verses power usage is not happening right now. Its just who ever grabs energy and unleashes it first. It's not going to get better by making weapons kill faster...it will just cheapen their interaction along with powers. The game will become more and more a "I see you, you die" situation where the true depth of warframe gets lost.  

Exactly what I'm saying since CtC release. But people like to oneshot for ego and pride instead than having nice times on a funny PVP.

Whatever, if while performing a combo a simple Lancer enemy evades it by running back, I can't really say how a combo would be meant to hit human players.

Thinking about elements on weapons and statuses... I remember the old permastagger... Associating it with permaslow or poison bypassing shields... It doesn't seem to be that great.

If that is going to happen, probably Critical Chance and Damage too will come back. The actual system is so baseline just to keep and balance things easier gradually.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[elele]

inb4 everyone uses blast, cold, toxin and viral. 

[onemoonlight]

cold master race, slowed movement and attack speed 24/7

[Aggh]

I support the elemental mods. I think it will add more variety of play styles and greater weapon customization. It will reduce the 'time to kill' significantly, making the new Conclave less about abilities and more about using guns. They will probably add the elemental resistance mods as well. 

Not sure of this.  From the way they talked about it, it sounds like it will be more about status effects (hopefully balanced properly for pvp) and less about adding more damage.  Abilities will still always be a shortcut to a quick kill until DE decides they want to balance them.

 

 

You see, for me that's a good thing. :) 

Lowering the skill cieling on gunplay is a good thing?  Why not just ad an instagib game mode instead?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Aggh

[.Talia.]

I play some games with a fast TTK and enjoy them. However I don't think a fast TTK is really compatible with several of warframes systems.

If warframe is going to take advantage of all of it's systems it needs to design core factors like TTK with all of them in mind. 

 

For example: what is the point of melee combos if the first hit were to kill? We would end up focusing on the quick rush in kill instead of the back and forth where combo systems show their real worth. It's the same problem we have right now with how powers kill so fast. Much of the interaction of well timed power verses power usage is not happening right now. Its just who ever grabs energy and unleashes it first. It's not going to get better by making weapons kill faster...it will just cheapen their interaction along with powers. The game will become more and more a "I see you, you die" situation where the true depth of warframe gets lost.  

 

 

Lowering the skill cieling on gunplay is a good thing?  Why not just ad an instagib game mode instead?

Let me clarify why i believe that increasing the weapon damage is a good thing. In my opinion that would make gunplay more viable to deal with the power spammers, and i believe it would motivate players to use their guns instead of powers for a change, because right now the game is more about farming energy to spam abilities.

Edited March 28, 2015 by RexSol

[Ronyn]

Let me clarify why i believe that increasing the weapon damage is a good thing. In my opinion that would make gunplay more viable to deal with the power spammers, and i believe it would motivate players to use their guns instead of powers for a change, because right now the game is more about farming energy to spam abilities.

I understood where you were coming from.

Yes, we need to pull the focus away from powers to some degree and get it evened out across gunplay, melee and powers equally. As I explained, trying to raise the guns to match the quick killing capability powers only continues to cheapen the real depth of the Warframe.

 

The answer is to lower the damage of powers to fit the TTK of guns, Not raise the damage of guns to match the TTK of powers.

 

Insta-gibbing everyone in a wide angle with ultimate's is not healthy for  warframes style of competitive, skill based action game.

We need to pull them back...not keep them so strong and try to compensate with making everything else near insta-kills.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[Feyangol]

[...]

We need to pull them back...not keep them so strong and try to compensate with making everything else near insta-kills.

Noone is talking about buffing everything up to nearly insta-kill, lol.

It does not mean that we want oneshot Mareloks back, if old conclave players talk about a buff of weapon dmg. Btw the game is currently way to slow that such a high weapon dmg could be enjoyable...

Edited March 28, 2015 by Feyangol

[Ronyn]

Noone is talking about buffing everything up to nearly insta-kill, lol.

It does not mean that we want oneshot Mareloks back, if old conclave players talk about a buff of weapon dmg.

How do you balance weapons to match up against powers that can one shot every person in a 20+ meter radius?

 

 

Btw the game is currently way to slow that such a high weapon dmg could be enjoyable...

It needs to go at a pace where every aspect of the combat model can factor in.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ronyn

[Aodan]

Make it REPLACE instead of ADD damage on the weapon.

there, balanced.

This, the issue with element mods is we don't want then greatly decreasing TTK.

If anything, maxed, they should add 5-10% DMG but nothing like 20%+.

This may be why some weapon ttk is so high (taking 10-20 shots), but if they do this wrong ttk will shoot up way too low.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Aodan

[Aodan]

It needs to go at a pace where every aspect of the combat model can factor in.

This, is how all PvP should be balanced, but DE is already ignoring that.

I feel that to kill a player you should have to use a combination. (Shoot+melee, shoot+power, etc)

[elele]

Get rid of the proc chance RNG. And: 

 

Fire: 120% dmg, deals 80% dmg upfront, the rest 40% with a DOT of 4 seconds. 

 

Ice: 80% dmg but slows target. 

 

Electricity: 50% dmg but chains to other enemies within 4 meters. 

 

Toxic: 80% dmg directly to health, but DOT over 10 seconds (eating a health orb stops the DOT). 

 

Magnetic: 150% dmg to shield but 50% dmg to health. 

 

Viral: 150% dmg to health but 50% to shield. 

 

Blast: 10% dmg but knocks down. 

 

Radiation: 10% dmg but causes friendly players to appear as hostile and enables friendly fire. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by elele

[Feyangol]

Get rid of the proc chance RNG. And: 

 

Fire: 120% dmg, deals 80% dmg upfront, the rest 40% with a DOT of 4 seconds. 

 

Ice: 80% dmg but slows target. 

 

Electricity: 50% dmg but chains to other enemies within 4 meters. 

 

Toxic: 80% dmg directly to health, but DOT over 10 seconds (eating a health orb stops the DOT). 

 

Magnetic: 150% dmg to shield but 50% dmg to health. 

 

Viral: 150% dmg to health but 50% to shield. 

 

Blast: 10% dmg but knocks down. 

 

Radiation: 10% dmg but causes friendly players to appear as hostile and enables friendly fire. 

That it is even worse than proc chance rng.

 

And I am sorry for the +1, I wanted to quote you but I hit the wrong button ...

Edited March 28, 2015 by Feyangol

[Aodan]

Control, is the biggest concern. This is an tps game with fairly low ttk apart from tanks. Kogake in its current form is already op

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Assuming we have slash, then I would hope the do one of two things:

 

1) Make it so Slash, Gas, Viral and Toxin can only proc once your shields are gone.

 

And/or

 

2) Make them only able to drop you to 1 HP on Procs (raw damage both normal and elemental could still kill you though.)

 

Ehh, none of the damage procs are that much of a problem.  You can roll to reduce the damage to 1-5 per tick (probably 1-2 from players in conclave, 5 would be what you'd get off a level 80 grineer manic... guess how I learned that?  I was quite shocked because I'd never seen a bleed come through roll for more than 2 before).  I'd be a lot more concerned with radiation/impact/blast procs.  A LOT MORE CONCERNED.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

inb4 everyone will be using cold or viral

 

I really hope these elemental mods do not ADD damage, and that they just change the damage type for a low chance to proc the related effect.

 

but to be honest I'd rather not have elemental mods to begin with.

 

More likely they will all be using toxin....

[Hueminator]

Make it REPLACE instead of ADD damage on the weapon.

 

there, balanced.

Although this is the most popular idea, but there are some complications:

 

Let say you use fire 90% and ice 75% what would your "blast" damage replacement is going to be? 75% blast? 90% blast? 165% blast? or 82.5% blast?  What if you go "rainbow" with 2 combine elements?

 

You probably have to put other restriction on it like one primary element only and/or one combine element only. After that you probably going to get status chance imbalance and/or a normalization.  Then maybe you have to add HP/Shield Mod in etc etc.

 

My point is it is not simple as it sounds, it has to come as a package and causes more unforeseen things.

 

Maybe it is not worth it after all?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Hueminator

[TheGrimCorsair]

It'd be best if they converted a % of your damage to the element in the case of elemental damage, with each mod being a max of 25% of your damage converted.

It's also *highly* unlikely the mods will look anything like our PvE elemental mods. You might be able to use them, but I'd be pretty shocked if the similarities didn't begin and end at picture and name on the card.

[Shifted]

Although this is the most popular idea, but there are some complications:

 

Let say you use fire 90% and ice 75% what would your "blast" damage replacement is going to be? 75% blast? 90% blast? 165% blast? or 82.5% blast?  What if you go "rainbow" with 2 combine elements?

 

You probably have to put other restriction on it like one primary element only and/or one combine element only. After that you probably going to get status chance imbalance and/or a normalization.  Then maybe you have to add HP/Shield Mod in etc etc.

 

My point is it is not simple as it sounds, it has to come as a package and causes more unforeseen things.

 

Maybe it is not worth it after all?

Who said you'll even have 90% damage mods?

 

12.5% 25% max

 

there, fixed.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Shifted

[Hueminator]

Who said you'll even have 90% damage mods?

12.5% max

there, fixed.

You haven't stated this in your first post, so I assume we use the standard mod. However, this mean that we are going to have special PvP elemental mod?

And you still haven't answer my concern about how those elemental mods will interact with each other. Given with 12.5% I assume you want those elemental to stack, with a rainbow build of 25% + 25%?

This lead to another question: What if you only want primary element damage and as good as the other guy who goes rainbow?

Usually in PvE you can go fire + fire/stat for more fire damage. Would it be the same case here where DE come up with new mods?

DE can tweak number but I haven't seen they done it to mods yet (pve and pvp stats)

Edited March 29, 2015 by Hueminator

[Shifted]

-snip-

I'm sure DE can figure it out.

I don't get paid to do so, so don't ask me.

 

Besides, I think we'll only get the basic mods (Hellfire, Pathogen Rounds etc) first then go from there.

The PvP team has my trust, they've proven when something's off they fix it ASAP.

Wish rest of DE did the same..

 

PS.

I meant 25% for a total 100% conversion, got confused with the amount of elements. 

Yeah I suck at math.

Whatever.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Shifted