Coptering, Pvp, And Current Problem.

[rockscl]

They also said that coptering isn't gonna be removed though.

they said, that their words did not meant they would do it, they stand neutral about it

[S3EK3R]

Coptering is good and all in Pve, but shall be removed from PvP entirely. The whole game consists of "Who can copter faster?"

[Thalahssalyst]

I dont see a constructive response. The only thing they say is that the coptering is official and not going to remove
but nobody said anything about the problems it causes.

[Rhekinos]

I find it near impossible to read your post. It's a combination of the organization, length and grammar that literally threw me off.

 

On the topic of coptering: I'm in favour of it staying in game. I don't understand how you think it's an easy skill to perform? Sure It's second nature to me now but to a beginner it'll take time to master. I honesty don't even see much players using it anymore.

 

On to the topic of speed. Gamers wil always want the fastest way to travel regardless of difficulty. If you're that obsessed with having it removed, some other 'annoying' method of fast travelling will be exploited regardless.

 

Cosmetic-wise it's completely a personal choice. If you hate how it looks just don't use it or play solo 24/7. We don't have to please everyone to live with ourselves.

 

I find that coptering is a mechanic unique to warframe. Personally I think it's graceful and the feeling of speed and flying is just amazing, especially how you can manage to clear a huge space in the middle of a Pluto defense mission with a combination of coptering and tidal surge. I don't see how coptering hurts anyone. It's PVE afterall, there's no competition. In fact, the main reason why I had to copter was to revive a teammate that went down on the other side of the map. Are you telling me you'd rather die and waste a revive then let someone use the most efficient and fastest way to save you?

 

Coptering obviously isn't the solution for all types of traveling. Parkour is useful when the map is more convoluted with less open space which is basically most of what a Warframe map looks like in the first place. I like that balance as it is.

 

I'm all in favour of keeping coptering as it is. Take it away in PVP for all I care. PVP in warframe is not worth my time (a whole different game if you ask me).

Edited March 28, 2015 by Rhekinos

[S3EK3R]

-snip-

Why are you writing so much about PvE coptering in a PvP thread? That was kinda pointless.

 

 

Besides fixing the coptering problem, we also need bigger maps. If coptering is to stay in PvP, we need maps twice the size of what we currently have.

Edited March 28, 2015 by S3EK3R

[Ronyn]

I think we need to normalize the two movement techniques across all melee weapons.

Right now a fast weapon lets use coper like crazy while a slow weapon moves in super slow.  Pick a middle ground.

Right now a long melee weapon lets use air dash across large areas while a short weapon barely moves us at all. Pick a middle ground.

 

There is a sweet spot for those things that would be most healthy for the game.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

First off, 'coptering is officially endorsed as a "good bug" by not only most of the community, but by DE itself.  Differences in speed between frames are not much of an issue, since other than Loki/Rhino/Chroma and a couple of the newer ones like Mirage, most of the frames are the same (1.0) speed.  Plus DE releases Rhino Prime with normal speed, and Vanguard Rhino with +0.1 speed and etc.  Clearly there's not going to be much fixing that.

 

As for your assertion that 'coptering doesn't require skill... it depends on the weapon used.  I'd agree that it doesn't for Bo Prime in particular, since the animation is soooo fast and the boost sooo big you don't need to use it efficiently and smoothly to do crazy things.  Take the Fang Prime or Kogake though.  The Air melee isn't great for either of them, you have to spam specific combinations to get up to a decent speed, and you have to time them just right, and any sort of mistake or obstruction will stop you cold.  To add to that, not only can you ALREADY get a somewhat reduced version of exactly the same effect by slide jumping (frontflip, which can also be chained ridiculously, but requires quite a lot more skill to maximize)... which will actually be greatly empowered with U17 according to the devs.  Well, at least 'coptering won't be just a melee thing :) , so you can choose the melee you like.  Since Mirage has the faster animations passive, she's going to be doing abusing that for some outright insane slideflip.

 

That being said, I do wholeheartedly endorse a single, massive nerf on coptering.  That nerf would be removal of CC immunity/CC break while 'coptering.  Suddenly CC abilities are effective (poor mag and frost), cold procs are solid, etc.

 

After that, the main thing to keep coptering, but make it not broken is to make larger maps, with more obstructed bases, and probably base defense systems on some maps as well.  Also, spin damage should be reinstituted on large AND slow weapons.  If you can seriously hit me with the spin attack on a Gram, I totally deserve to die to a one shot.

 

Here's a previous and much more detailed post I have on the matter of 'coptering, maps, defenses, and CtC style PvP in general in another thread:

 

 

Let's be honest.  No one actually wants coptering and mobility nerfed for PvP, it would be no fun.  What we DO need is better ways to counter it.  Big maps is one (excellent) solution, ala Tribes, which also has some seriously extreme mobility (also coincidentally has a mechanic called "skiing" AKA jumping just as you hit the ground so you don't lose speed between short hops with your jetpacks.  Skiing was not intended for the first tribes game, but was a good bug that WAS intentionally for the rest of the series, much like 'coptering in Warframe).  Maze-like difficulty to enter/leave bases are another excellent method.  Think of a medieval castle.  Tribes also had a TON of this, with very large and elaborate bases on many maps.  The final method I can think of are maps with a lot of environmental hazards, such as pitfalls and fire/ice/toxic gas/lava/powerful machinery/moving parts etc.

 

You can keep the mobility that most of the community adores, and still make a defensible CtC map.  You just need to make it a bit harder to get in/get out/get home so quickly and effortlessly.  The Void map and the Corpus Hall map are the biggest offenders here, although the Corpus Platform map is only slightly better.  The Hall has the Ceph behind a wall... which slows a would-be capper down by about a second and doesn't really have any good defense points behind it.  The Platform map is bigger, but the flag is open, with many approach routes, and again, no place to stand to defend it that can't be very easily sniped.

 

The Void map is just.... so small that you can go up and over the middle and to the enemy ceph in about 4 copters... and 3 seconds flat, once you get good at 'coptering.  You can literally have 2 caps done before someone can walk to the other side if you copter effectively.  I'd recommend some type of 3 sided wall around the ceph, to prevent straight on instant frontal caps.  That's about all this map would need, and someone could set up on one of the platforms behind the flag with a Lex/Bow or a melee weapon with a good AoE ground slam to protect the ceph.

 

For the Hall, I'd recommend large grates over the two side doors.  Yes, grates.  The type that can't be quiiite one-shotted on the way in.  This would let people defend it at least a little bit better.  I'd also recommend that the grates respawn every 10 seconds, and take 2-3 melee attacks to destroy.  The bottom entrance is fine, since you have to slow down to get up from below via mobility.

 

For the Platform map, I'd recommend several more boxes, preferably with one strategically placed right in front of the cephalon stand.

 

All of the CtC maps could heavily benefit from having stationary turrets or grineer electric traps near the ceph stand, and possibly at doors on their side.  I'd recommend that these could be destroyed, but you'd need a method to repair/respawn them.  How about getting close and pressing activate either while having a minimum of 25 energy that you *pay* to repair it, or just holding activate for a couple of seconds.  Obviously both typed of defenses benefit heavily from obstructions to high speed maneuvers in the area.  The trick here is to find a balance between making it impossible for a single player to take a ceph, and making it no sweat for a newbie to take it.

[Thalahssalyst]

Exactly, that mean. Depends on melee you use, if not normal melee should have all the same advantage?Clearly not happen. Yesterday I happened something funny, I ran with a skana, and others with Bo, is foul play, and they just do rush.

This going to happen the same mistake as in the old conclave , are taking diversity of choice.

Now all go with Bo prime , Coptering everywhere, and if at least were easy to kill someone who does that, but with the current damage is impossible.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Grimlock-

[Blatantfool]

 I'm just posting this since it is relevant. RexSol seems to have mentioned it.

 

 DE has decided to keep coptering around. It IS an accepted maneuver, even in conclaves.

 

 https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=36m36s

 

  THAT SAID, Coptering - now accepted as a function that has a place in the game - is not immune to nerfs and changes for the sake of Game balance.

 

 

 For the sake of conversation on this topic? I see it like this after watching these forums and playing myself for a while:

 

 -Melee techniques should not work if you attempt to preform them with less stamina then they cost. This includes simply swinging your melee weapon.

 

-Slide melee, the catalyst of Coptering, should carry much more significant Stamina cost. Something like 65 stamina would be a good starting cost. It can go up or down from there after players play at it a bit to test it.

 

-There should be a brief moment, when a player is hit by weapons fire, where his stamina stops recharging. Only a length of time between half a second and a second is necessary.

 

 What would this do? 

 

 It'd mean that Coptering can no longer be chained the same way across a map. You will have moments in between bursts of speed where you cannot preform the maneuver and sprinting prevents regeneration thus creating the choice - Stop running long enough to recharge?

 

 BUT since Stamina regen would be staggered due to gunfire, that player wouldn't be able to use copter to escape unless he'd already regenerated enough back during the wait. This means defenders WILL have options for denying him the speed boost IF they can get their guns on target.

 

 Stamina should be the limiting factor in regards to melee and movement. It's time it got touched up to actually do that job, at the very least for PvP.

[tocorro]

coptering - in-air slide with melee attack,

directional/aerial melee - jumping in air, point cursor in some direction and punching melee attack button.

Two different mechanics. One as You mentioned was a glitch. Second was an added feature (intended).

Often You're mixing those terms (calling one the other) in what You wrote.

Edited March 30, 2015 by tocorro

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

 I'm just posting this since it is relevant. RexSol seems to have mentioned it.

 

 DE has decided to keep coptering around. It IS an accepted maneuver, even in conclaves.

 

 https://youtu.be/NG6SnSQwH9A?t=36m36s

 

  THAT SAID, Coptering - now accepted as a function that has a place in the game - is not immune to nerfs and changes for the sake of Game balance.

 

 

 For the sake of conversation on this topic? I see it like this after watching these forums and playing myself for a while:

 

 -Melee techniques should not work if you attempt to preform them with less stamina then they cost. This includes simply swinging your melee weapon.

 

-Slide melee, the catalyst of Coptering, should carry much more significant Stamina cost. Something like 65 stamina would be a good starting cost. It can go up or down from there after players play at it a bit to test it.

 

-There should be a brief moment, when a player is hit by weapons fire, where his stamina stops recharging. Only a length of time between half a second and a second is necessary.

 

 What would this do? 

 

 It'd mean that Coptering can no longer be chained the same way across a map. You will have moments in between bursts of speed where you cannot preform the maneuver and sprinting prevents regeneration thus creating the choice - Stop running long enough to recharge?

 

 BUT since Stamina regen would be staggered due to gunfire, that player wouldn't be able to use copter to escape unless he'd already regenerated enough back during the wait. This means defenders WILL have options for denying him the speed boost IF they can get their guns on target.

 

 Stamina should be the limiting factor in regards to melee and movement. It's time it got touched up to actually do that job, at the very least for PvP.

 

I disagree utterly that you should not be able to perform any melee techniques while you are out of stamina, unless the stamina and regeneration for ALL frames are BOTH given a massive boost.  The only thing this would accomplish would be to make melee gameplay even less viable than it already is for the majority of frames.   So, No.  I'd be okay if CERTAIN melee techniques didn't work, but there should definitely be things you can do while out of stamina.

 

You realize the base stamina for warframes is 100 right?  Not only is 65 ridiculously high and totally illogical for a power armor suit, but it would only really destroy the melee weapons that already don't copter very well.  In short, everyone would be using Bo Prime/Tipedo/Amphis, since practically else would give enough copter for a single move to do anything worthwhile.  If you were to say 25, or even 35, I might agree, but 65 is outright blatantly ridiculous and I can only assume that you are one of those players who effectively never even learned HOW to copter well, to want it nerfed so massively.  I mean, come on, a regular melee swing is between 5 and 15 stamina, 65 is totally out of line.

 

Hell no.  If taking damage stopped your stamina from regenerating, that would be even more of a nerf to the melee playstyle.  It would be literally impossible to even THINK of competing for damage with even poorly modded weapons, because you'd literally have to sit in a corner crying somewhere for 10-15 seconds every 5 seconds and hope to god no one finds you to hit you.

 

The simpler and better solutions by far are to make larger and better defended maps.  That.  Is.  All.

 

 

coptering - in-air slide with melee attack,

directional/aerial melee - jumping in air, point cursor in some direction and punching melee attack button.

Two different mechanics. One as You mentioned was a glitch. Second was an added feature (intended).

Often You're mixing those terms (calling one the other) in what You wrote.

 

As far as I can tell, the OP and several others don't even have much of an issue with regular 'coptering, but are outright outraged by directional air melee.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Blatantfool]

I disagree utterly that you should not be able to perform any melee techniques while you are out of stamina, unless the stamina and regeneration for ALL frames are BOTH given a massive boost.  The only thing this would accomplish would be to make melee gameplay even less viable than it already is for the majority of frames.   So, No.  I'd be okay if CERTAIN melee techniques didn't work, but there should definitely be things you can do while out of stamina.

 

You realize the base stamina for warframes is 100 right?  Not only is 65 ridiculously high and totally illogical for a power armor suit, but it would only really destroy the melee weapons that already don't copter very well.  In short, everyone would be using Bo Prime/Tipedo/Amphis, since practically else would give enough copter for a single move to do anything worthwhile.  If you were to say 25, or even 35, I might agree, but 65 is outright blatantly ridiculous and I can only assume that you are one of those players who effectively never even learned HOW to copter well, to want it nerfed so massively.  I mean, come on, a regular melee swing is between 5 and 15 stamina, 65 is totally out of line.

 

Hell no.  If taking damage stopped your stamina from regenerating, that would be even more of a nerf to the melee playstyle.  It would be literally impossible to even THINK of competing for damage with even poorly modded weapons, because you'd literally have to sit in a corner crying somewhere for 10-15 seconds every 5 seconds and hope to god no one finds you to hit you.

 

The simpler and better solutions by far are to make larger and better defended maps.  That.  Is.  All.

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, the OP and several others don't even have much of an issue with regular 'coptering, but are outright outraged by directional air melee.

 

 

 Stamina regeneration is already mighty fast. We even have a mod capable of enhancing it by 120%. Along with Mods that enhance our total stamina reserve whenever that gets greenlit. If this change went through I think maybe it should get greenlit.

 

  Though You are probably right. Normal melee swings don't actually require the change. I suppose there would be no point. That would be far too extreme.

 

 Specifically slide melee though, that does need this sort of alteration.

 

 Coptering by itself is not the real issue in conclave. It's just how effective chain-coptering around the whole map can be. The more fluent you are and comboing it all together the more ludicrously fast your laps get. It IS a trouble right now since the slide melee animation itself can prevent things like Pull's CC component from working. There is no limitation on it. That does need changing.

 

 I'm perfectly aware of the 100 Stamina limitation. It's the source of the suggestion that the cost of the maneuver be ramped up. 65 would be what I'd reckon is a higher end price. Though I could see an argument for lowering it to a 50 energy cost, meaning two back-to-back leaps. As I've been watching people talk about this all day I've been slowly touching up on my own take on the issue. Trying to see it from all angles, even those I generally disagree with.

 

 The point, of course, is that using it would be a burst of easy speed. A tool you use for getaways or to clear a dangerous stretch of your flag route where you aren't well protected. There would always, eventually, be a point where your Tenno would be unable to preform the maneuver and need to regenerate Stamina a bit or decide to take to sprinting instead. Regenerating only takes a few moments - but that is the point. A few moments. Long enough for any chasing parties to have a fair chance to capitalize. If they can't they don't deserve to catch you.

 

  

 

 You bring up another good point though, it would run the risk of devolving to the point where everyone only uses the best Coptering tools. So I guess I have one other suggestion in mind:

 

Every single Melee weapon in Conclave should be made to go exactly the same distance, the only possible exceptions being Heavy Melee weapons and Melee with a bizarre slide melee attack like Kogake or Furax.

 

 

 Honestly, after all the reading I've done over PvP today I think my take on it has changed to something like this:

 

- Cannot preform advanced melee techniques your stamina cannot afford. This covers: Airdash, Slide melee, Combo finisher attacks. In the case of that last entry, the attack will be preformed but the combo bonus will not.

 

- Slide melee would have it's Stamina cost increased drastically. Somewhere between 50-60 Stamina. This is specifically to force players to either sprint out certain sections of their route in the map OR wait to regenerate their stamina.  

 

- For .5 seconds after taking damage from a firearm Tenno Stamina regen will be delayed. Thus if you are taking continuous fire you will regenerate at a much slower rate. You'll have to deal with your attacker or hide and take cover long enough to make a getaway.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

 Stamina regeneration is already mighty fast. We even have a mod capable of enhancing it by 120%. Along with Mods that enhance our total stamina reserve whenever that gets greenlit. If this change went through I think maybe it should get greenlit.

Stamina regen already has a sizeable delay before it even kicks in.  Not only does it ALREADY make melee straight underpowered in PvE, but nerfing it is exactly the wrong way to go.  We already have mods for stamina reserve.  It doesn't help much, shield flux is vastly better.

 

50 energy is still ridiculously high.  If you put different stamina costs in for different weapons it would make sense, but 50 would be like a max speed Tipedo or something, if even that.  Most weapons should be around 20-30.

 

Making all the copter distances the same is THE WORST IDEA EVER.  Literally, seriously, just NO.

 

That being said, I'd just adjust my route to slideflip and wall slingshot, and it would actually be even faster,(by a ton) but slightly more difficult to perform.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Qynchou]

Do I really have to go 50/0 in a match with a rat strategy and film it for the devs to consider removing this S#&$ mechanic?

 

Equip bo, slide around, get 25 energy, slash dash with infinite radius, stagger enemy, turn camera around, get a kill.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

This is so god damn disgusting especially when DE considers this mechanic to be something good for warframe and some sort of unique mechanic that warframe will be recognized with.

 

The fact is, that warframes pvp will be recognized not as "oh yeah warframe, I heard it has unique movement mechanics in pvp" but as "oh warframe, yeah I heard theres bullS#&$ movement mechanics where people fly around non stop and youre not able to kill anyone".

 

 

That being said, I'd just adjust my route to slideflip and wall slingshot, and it would actually be even faster,(by a ton) but slightly more difficult to perform.

You would get shot down as soon as youd slow down to touch that wall (sticky parkour that we have now), so no.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Qynchou

[BluelitHalo]

This is so god damn disgusting especially when DE considers this mechanic to be something good for warframe and some sort of unique mechanic that warframe will be recognized with.

The fact is, that warframes pvp will be recognized not as "oh yeah warframe, I heard it has unique movement mechanics in pvp" but as "oh warframe, yeah I heard theres bullS#&$ movement mechanics where people fly around non stop and youre not able to kill anyone".

This is the truth. Unless capper/copter mobility is limited in some way, or bases are "buffed" to become much more difficult to get in and out of, or both, then this PvP meta will always be joke. Edited April 2, 2015 by Sonitorum

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Do I really have to go 50/0 in a match with a rat strategy and film it for the devs to consider removing this S#&$ mechanic?

 

Equip bo, slide around, get 25 energy, slash dash with infinite radius, stagger enemy, turn camera around, get a kill.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

This is so god damn disgusting especially when DE considers this mechanic to be something good for warframe and some sort of unique mechanic that warframe will be recognized with.

 

The fact is, that warframes pvp will be recognized not as "oh yeah warframe, I heard it has unique movement mechanics in pvp" but as "oh warframe, yeah I heard theres bullS#&$ movement mechanics where people fly around non stop and youre not able to kill anyone".

 

 

 

You would get shot down as soon as youd slow down to touch that wall (sticky parkour that we have now), so no.

 

You don't understand parkour if you think wall slingshotting involves touching a wall long enough to slow down.  It involves letting go of the wall right when your vertical movement stops and before your feet touch the wall (and you slow down) and will slingshot you at ridiculous speeds (easily beyond anything short of a full speed + channel 'coptering tipedo build), especially in combination with slideflip and wallflip combos.  Long story short, back when dual zoren rushing was still in vogue people would get PIS**D when I easily outran their DZ Lokis with a Gram Trinity.  I still use it all the time, especially when leveling slower melee weapons.  That being said, a properly executed wall slingshot attack with kogakes or obex is outright glorious, flying into a full health bombard/napalm/heavy gunner around level 90 at something like the speed of sound with your virtually bare hands and one shot gibbing him/her/it is an unmatched thrill (and really difficult to pull off reliably...).

 

I constantly use speed capping strategies.  If it's not me, it will be nova or ash or Loki or Mirage or plenty of other frames when they get added to PvP CtC.  That being said, I don't go 50/0, unless the teams are horribly stacked.  I went 5/0 a fair number of times early on, when everyone was still figuring the strategies out and I had a leg up, but only just today I got owned 2/5 and 3/5 in the last two games I played earlier (the second was partially due to 1v2/2v3/3v4 but I digress)  Not only did they, who had practice fighting people who copter a lot, shoot me right out of mid copter within a second or two of me taking the flag multiple times, but they were using the same strategy with faster bo primes, to which I replied by knocking them off the map with kogakes at every opportunity.  Oh, and good luck chainstunning someone with Handspring, even people without handspring weren't really dying to me because their teammates weren't airheads and would focus fire me down in seconds the instant they saw me start a chain on someone.

 

As for the problem of chasing cappers, I multiple times chased and shot between and DURING copters with my Lex, killing many, many speed cappers.  I also did the same with my latron prime a couple of times, though it was a bit harder.  I also encountered a mag today, who was a large part of my first loss, and had a habit of chasing and pulling me with nigh perfect precision, resulting in 2 easy caps for her while we were 1v2 (her ally made his presence known when I tried to chainstun her during her second pullchase, by killing the shizz out of me mid copter)

 

I am THE huge supporter of bigger maps, and better defended, bigger, and more complex bases.  It would make this game a lot more like Tribes 2, which, was easily my favorite PvP for years (probably still is, actually).  Yes, the stories are true, unless the server was modded specifically to softcap or hardcap movement speed, some people were capable of getting up to speeds in excess of 1,000 km/hr in that game, WHILE ON FOOT.

 

The solution to people you almost can't even see coming in at nigh horizontal semi-ballistic trajectories to your flagstand?  Mines.  Or a heavy standing on the flag blocking access, or a HOVERTANK on the flagstand preventing access.  Or a massive base, full of tight twisty corridors, huge quantities of blind angles, and lots of verticality, on a map about 8km across.  THAT'S the ultimate FU to speed cappers soloing the cephalon, NOT nerfing mobility mechanics, because there are just too dang many of them.  If it's not coptering, it will be Zephyr, if it's not Zephyr, it will be Nova.  If it's not Nova it will be Loki/Ash.  If it's not Loki/Ash it will be Rhino/Excalibur/Hydroid.  If it's not them it will be Mirage with her enhanced animations.  If it's not Mirage it will be Volt.

 

Instead of changing something that will result in a huge cascade of nerfs, probably ban half of the 'Frames in the game from CtC, and gut the living daylights out of an already weak system (not to mention removing one of the game's most loved unique mechanics), let's do the obvious.  Lobby for bigger maps, stronger defenses, better bases, and active defenses.  I'm in the design council, I'll certainly be doing my part (and already have made a few feedback suggestions on the subject).

Edited April 2, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Thalahssalyst]

then, basically what you're saying is that if remove the coptering, make all warframes with the same speed etc ?

It would be like asking all warframes, have the same skills, something there is diversity of movement, based on the tactic , and the election, continued without touching the point of topic, no, what is coptering, if not, the problem generated .

Edited April 2, 2015 by Grimlock-

[Zeally]

In all honesty, with the addition of the air dash, air melee spin should be removed, as it was first intended as a ground maneuver. I'm tired of seeing the play style of people just bouncing around the map at break neck speeds avoiding combat until their team makes kill the other flag carrier. That should improve weapon diversity amongst players as well, as its mostly the Bo/Bo Prime users doing it.

 

Yes, Stamina costs are all tied into this, but I think DE really needs to sit down and think about how they want stamina to operate and how it plays into any of the game modes whatsoever, because its still just in just a basic form as it is, and anybody can easily see that it really means nothing.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

In all honesty, with the addition of the air dash, air melee spin should be removed, as it was first intended as a ground maneuver. I'm tired of seeing the play style of people just bouncing around the map at break neck speeds avoiding combat until their team makes kill the other flag carrier. That should improve weapon diversity amongst players as well, as its mostly the Bo/Bo Prime users doing it.

 

Yes, Stamina costs are all tied into this, but I think DE really needs to sit down and think about how they want stamina to operate and how it plays into any of the game modes whatsoever, because its still just in just a basic form as it is, and anybody can easily see that it really means nothing.

 

You say: "I'm tired of seeing the play style of people just bouncing around the map at break neck speeds..."

 

I read:  "I'm tired of getting owned by people who are better than me at basic movement in the game, and I don't know how to aim effectively at coptering people, and/or copter with them and kill them."

 

It's really not that hard to stop copterers, use fully automatic weapons if you want to go to close range, and semi auto if they like to stay far away from you.  After that, start practicing your aiming.  Barring those, get a Lex or Latron Prime, and start learning to copter, then weave in shooting while moving around at high speed (totally possible, but best used with slow firing weapons due to the fact you'll only have a fraction of a second to get a shot off before you hit the ground).

 

That being said, yes, the stamina systems is horrible and gimp.  It punishes blocking, which is a stalling tactic anyways, and there just straight up isn't enough stamina on most frames.  They literally cannot tie melee moves usage to stamina, because if they do, melee would be totally pathetic atm, instead of just kind of weak in most situations.

 

[Gavir]

At present CtC I've seen all too many Bo Prime users performing the copter meta. I've personally become a master of Coptering with just about any weapon I can get speed with, but that is NOT THE POINT. The point is, PvP should have more equal opportunities for how people can go about the game, and having people who can just jet across the field capping 5 cephalons in less than 1 minute because over half the team has a Bo Prime, it's not a fair game. Honestly, it just makes whoever's doing it a very big jerk who just wants easy items and no real gameplay.

 

Warframe itself From the beginning never had a primary focus on PvP. In fact, it's almost like DE just slapped it on there as another "Gamemode" so their game wouldn't seem dull from excessive cooperative play. The one-shot builds and toxin kills in PvP 1.0 were proof of that, and PvP 2.0, as it stands, has a lot to learn and pick up from. I appreciate DE's attempt at refining PvP, but It does not excuse the already present faults, which is why we have posts like this explaining our pleas and why we need to deal with it and how it may be dealt with.

 

From my point of view, I'd like to have the ability to spin-melee in PvP to be removed alltogether, or reduce attack speed of melees like the Bo Prime when used in PvP, much like damage is hindered on all weapons. Because the Zoren Coptering mechanic itself is only a fun thing in PvE. Vitalis, you've even got up there that you enjoyed killing a BOMBARD with a spin attack, nothing out of players and how it was handled, or even becoming a victim of those spinners.

 

Plus, Coptering isn't a "Basic" mechanic if it supposedly takes so much to master such. And your statement of "Just get better at aiming" doesn't work when you have to be a DEADEYE to stop something that people ALWAYS do and are in and out in just seconds.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

At present CtC I've seen all too many Bo Prime users performing the copter meta. I've personally become a master of Coptering with just about any weapon I can get speed with, but that is NOT THE POINT. The point is, PvP should have more equal opportunities for how people can go about the game, and having people who can just jet across the field capping 5 cephalons in less than 1 minute because over half the team has a Bo Prime, it's not a fair game. Honestly, it just makes whoever's doing it a very big jerk who just wants easy items and no real gameplay.

 

Warframe itself From the beginning never had a primary focus on PvP. In fact, it's almost like DE just slapped it on there as another "Gamemode" so their game wouldn't seem dull from excessive cooperative play. The one-shot builds and toxin kills in PvP 1.0 were proof of that, and PvP 2.0, as it stands, has a lot to learn and pick up from. I appreciate DE's attempt at refining PvP, but It does not excuse the already present faults, which is why we have posts like this explaining our pleas and why we need to deal with it and how it may be dealt with.

 

From my point of view, I'd like to have the ability to spin-melee in PvP to be removed alltogether, or reduce attack speed of melees like the Bo Prime when used in PvP, much like damage is hindered on all weapons. Because the Zoren Coptering mechanic itself is only a fun thing in PvE. Vitalis, you've even got up there that you enjoyed killing a BOMBARD with a spin attack, nothing out of players and how it was handled, or even becoming a victim of those spinners.

 

Plus, Coptering isn't a "Basic" mechanic if it supposedly takes so much to master such. And your statement of "Just get better at aiming" doesn't work when you have to be a DEADEYE to stop something that people ALWAYS do and are in and out in just seconds.

 

A deadeye huh?  Ever played Tremulous?  Any of the Tribes series?  Natural Selection?  Unreal Tournament?  The twitch aiming in those games makes most of this look outright tame.  Yes, I said learn to aim, because you ACTUALLY NEED TO.

 

The speed capping is more due to small maps and poorly defended cephalons, and less to do with coptering.  Like I've said numerous times, if it's not coptering, it will be wall slingshot.  If it's not that it will be Zephyr/Nova/Loki/Ash/Hydroid/Excalibur/Rhino/Mirage when they are released for CtC.  Coptering isn't even CLOSE to the only mechanic capable of that speed, it's just the easiest one that is available to EVERYONE.  (wallslingshot is about the same difficulty, but you need to know WHERE to do it, so it becomes a lot more about experience).  Even beyond that, DE is talking about adding a lot more slingshot onto slideflips in U17, so even if you nerf coptering, not only will I and other people who took time to become fairly skillful at the game's mobility mechanics be wallslinging in most places IMMEDIATELY, but we will be slideflipping EVERYWHERE shortly thereafter.

 

TL;DR:  Coptering is one of a Vast array of mechanics and abilities that can be used to move at speeds much higher than walking.  Get used to it.  Not only is it not going to be removed completely, but even if it were, there are literally ten other things just waiting to take its place.  I really hate to say this, and no troll, but if people don't like it, they should:  "Get good."

 

Edit:  And yes, among the skillful movement mechanics, coptering is definitely the easiest and most basic.  Wallslingshot?  Location Location Location, and a bit more unintuitive in the timing.  Slideflip chaining?  (It has a delay before you can flip again after slide-landing, but you can remove the delay entirely by releasing the slide for a split second... which doesn't slow you down.  You can chain them together to keep building up speed). (There are also some truly bizarre mechanics for turning while sliding on the floor... don't ask me, I can't even explain it)  Talk to some people in the dojo obstacle course crowd.  They will also tell you about the "gallop" the "wallcopter" and probably a host of things I've never even heard of before, and am barely starting to notice, like the glitched copters that pretty much put you at mach 5 instantly.  It's literally like a long ranged blink.

Edited April 2, 2015 by [DE]Drew
Edited to comply with the community rules

[Thalahssalyst]

Did u read the post? The current problems? Not about what that is, we know what coptering is, what DE say, we know all about it.
It is not because we cant against it... its about the a general problem.
When all warframes become available we will only see Zephyr/Tipedo/Zoren/Scoliac/Dagguers... Ocassional Excaliburs.
You talk about the skill required to use it, right? Lets face it, anyone does coptering, easier airstrike.
No diversity, where is the tactic if all fly with the same melee soon with the same warframes.
every word u say, clarifies my point of view, all we are forced to use coptering to be as fast, or face someone who does that.

If someone choose ash or loki to be fast, no one will going to ask for a speed reduction or nerf, they choose for speed, not as choose a rhino, someone slow for resistance, if they were all fast, what would be the point? If everyone had the same skills, what would be the fun?
I dont think DE, make large maps to only come with coptering to reach the target and finish the mission in less than 5 minutes in pve, just because they see boring. In pvp, no difference, if u want to do against someone who uses coptering, or use coptering, or use coptering, there is no other choice, thats the problem.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Grimlock-

[Zeally]

-snip-

 

 

If any of what you said is the case, then PVP for Warframe is already lost and will stay lost and only playable for those who are "good" at mechanics that are clearly in need of being addressed, to some proper extent.

 

I like how you automatically assume that I just suck at the game, but I'll be the better man and just say its not about "getting good", its about making it so that one play style doesn't trump everything else in the game. There is such a thing called balance, and since DE has take then route of putting PVP into their game (which was originally a PVE coop game where balance didn't matter as much) balance is paramount.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Zeally

[rockscl]

 

 

im still amazed by how people pastes here walls of text and barely there have been 4 or 5 lines related to the topic, no one wants to actually talk about this

 

 

TL;DR:  Coptering is one of a Vast array of mechanics and abilities that can be used to move at speeds much higher than walking.  Get used to it.  Not only is it not going to be removed completely, but even if it were, there are literally ten other things just waiting to take its place.  I really hate to say this, and no troll, but if people don't like it, they should:  "Get good."

 

hey, we all already know that coptering will stay, so on the topic, why dont you explain to us:

 

1 why coptering should be free from any restriction like stamina or a max of spins?

2 why coptering should be rewarded with cc immunity?

3 why coptering should be allowed to be the basic mechanic to win any match?

 

its been like a week waiting for any answer to these observations in the op :)

Edited April 2, 2015 by rockscl

[elele]

A deadeye huh?  Ever played Tremulous?  Any of the Tribes series?  Natural Selection?  Unreal Tournament?  The twitch aiming in those games makes most of this look outright tame.  Yes, I said learn to aim, because you ACTUALLY NEED TO.

 

Tribes, UT, Natural Selection all have splash weapons. Get a rocket and you don't need perfect aim. Hell most of Tribes fights involve shooting the spinfusor at someone's feet. 

 

Also Tribes can't be compared to WF here. In Tribes if you're holding a chain gun and defending your base, you sometimes have several seconds to shoot an incoming enemy flying on a fixed trajectory. The flying guy can't do anything about it as he can't drastically change his flight course mid-flight. In WF you have people flying across half the map in one second and land, and then change flight direction again. You must be using oneshot weapons with perfect aim, otherwise your low-dmg machine gun just can't kill them quickly enough.