Saryn Should Get The Same Treatment As Excalibur.

[RealPandemonium]

Yes, Miasma does good damage. That's kind of its entire point. Its CC capabilities plummet when paired with negative duration builds, whereas every other AoE nuke I listed has some form of CC that (in most cases) is completely unaffected by negative duration. Its all about the trade-offs. Saryn has damage, but low range (among the lowest of the AoE damage nukes). Her CC is marred by the pursuit of max damage. Other frames are not afflicted with this issue. If people stopped acting like the effects of our terribly balanced mods were the fault of the abilities we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you stopped ignoring the ups and downs to these ults we wouldn't be having this discussion. If people would stop trying to throw every frame under the bus in some silly campaign to drag everything down with their favorites we wouldn't be having this discussion. You won't fix a problem by ignoring the cause in favor of the symptoms. In this case, I heartily disagree with the way Miasma benefits from negative duration being an issue in the first place.

Miasma's CC lasts the same amount of time regardless of the duration stat.  It is a stagger similar to Accelerant's which lasts 1-4 seconds depending on animation.  You could argue that Molt's CC suffers from negative duration, but not Miasma's.  

 

Miasma's range is tied for the 15m spot with Avalanche and some others.  While this is on the low end, its Stretch-boosted range of 21.7 meters is effective for clearing rooms.  In particular, Miasma does so much raw damage that adding a maxed Overextended to increase its range to 36.7m does not impede its killing speed much until late content.  

 

There is no dispute about which radial nuke is the strongest.  Blade Storm and Peacemaker can rival Miasma in effectiveness, but those two abilities are also in the realm of ridiculousness IMO.  Either way, I don't think anyone would be opposed to a more intuitive and more variable modding situation for Miasma.  Unless, of course, you will miss your farming tool.  (Admittedly I will miss it, but I'll still be happy to see the game shifting away from mindless farming.)

 

As for the mod system being broken, I totally agree.  That still doesn't warrant having 9540 damage Miasmas for 25 energy while comparable builds on other frames do 3180 (Avalanche) or less.  It is important to note that Miasma doesn't even require a special mod configuration to maximize its damage; the usual nuke build just happens to give it an extra-powerful boost as a side-effect.  If Miasma's huge damage build required exotic additional mods to be included, that could be considered a valid trade-off for its power, though not much of one.  

 

Inb4 DAMAGE DOESNT MATTER THIS GAME'S ALL ABOUT CC GET OFF OF MERCURY, btw.

Edited April 17, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Cancer_Cowboy]

Miasma is fine in a sense. It does a nuke, it kills stuff, it makes bad players rage since people are not playing the game exactly the way they want them to play.

And damage does matter. Its why everyone runs the same mod set on their weapons. However, weaponry cannot provide reliable CC, damage buffing, or protection. That's where Warframe abilities come in. And since we're rather starved for frames with well designed abilities that can fill in the niches our guns cannot, we have 0 room for pure damage frames.

Not to mention that weaponry will always have higher ranges and much better DPS, and usually, better burst.

With all that being said, Miasma fills its niche. Its a fast nuke for clearing the starmap quickly or doing alerts.

[polarity]

Blade Storm and Peacemaker can rival Miasma in effectiveness, but those two abilities are also in the realm of ridiculousness IMO.

 

However both those abilities are limited by LoS, and Bladestorm also has a target cap, leaving miasma as the only ability capable of applying damage to multiple rooms, right the way through all the planets.

 

I don't see any other warframe consistently getting 95%+ damage on invasions, no matter what other frames are present, or their level / their player's MR.  That much damage could be done using no other abilities or equipment, short of a fast melee for coptering.

 

The devs clearly did not consider for a moment the effects a high damage, large AoE, non-LoS ability would have, when available for use in content below max level.  In that content it's not merely overpowered compared to other abilities, but completely game-breaking.

 

However,

 

I don't believe that simply adding an LoS restriction is the best fix.  It doesn't fit at all well with the idea of a gas cloud, and really if the ability is going to be nerfed in one respect in order to reign in it's capability in lower levels, it needs to gain something at higher levels to make up for that.

 

I propose a rework of the ability to make it more interactive, as well as more customisable, working something like this:

 

* On activation Saryn channels toxin towards where she's aiming, forming a sphere of gas centered there (with eg. a 2m base radius at max level).  While active the ability consumes energy at a constant rate.

* This sphere can be moved by looking somewhere else (similar to how anti-matter drop works, except for the starting location).

* Targets within the shere are afflicted with a damage over time debuff, which can stack up to a limit if reapplied.

 

This provides a lot of customisation from mods, affecting things like:

 

* The time you have to move the sphere around, or hold it in place if the debuff stacked (efficiency).

* How far away the sphere could be placed or moved (range).

* How fast the sphere follows where you're aiming at (duration).

* Size of the sphere, essentially how focussed the damage is (strength).

 

 

It wouldn't be an instant 'damage full room' ability any more.  To cover a whole room you'd have to actually interract with it, as the size would be much more limited.  On the plus side though you'd be able to make the damage usable at higher levels, by focusing it into a smaller area.

Edited April 17, 2015 by polarity

[Redhux]

Just don't touch Saryn.

 

Particulary the 2nd and the 4th.

 

They're fine at the moment.

[Kontrollo]

...

Why should Miasma be considered the problem when it is mods that are responsible for the change you are citing as a problem? You should ONLY look at base (max rank, but unmodded) stats for abilities when the discussion is on those abilities themselves, and not on mods.

...

 

As has been mentioned in this thread several times already, Miasma's problem is not its base damage but the way it is calculated with negative duration mods. If I remember correctly, at one point Miasma's damage calculation was changed so that the total damage dealt would not be reliant on duration. Let me illustrate with this picture from the wiki:

 

 

This right here should be a plane if the damage was independent of duration mods. And it isn't because the damage formula doesn't account for builds with a duration below one second.

 

 

I'm very much expecting this to change again once Saryn gets her rework. I think they just didn't touch it yet because they know very well that all of her abilities need some changes/improvements.

[SlytexNL]

*sigh* seriously? Everytime I see a threat that starts with "nerf" or with "should be the same as excal", the thread always starts with "farming on Draco".

 

If that is such a problem then ask DE to take Draco away but STOP asking to bloody nerf frames or weapons into the ground already... Getting sick and tired of this!

[SquirmyBurrito]

Miasma's CC lasts the same amount of time regardless of the duration stat.  It is a stagger similar to Accelerant's which lasts 1-4 seconds depending on animation.  You could argue that Molt's CC suffers from negative duration, but not Miasma's.  

 

Miasma's range is tied for the 15m spot with Avalanche and some others.  While this is on the low end, its Stretch-boosted range of 21.7 meters is effective for clearing rooms.  In particular, Miasma does so much raw damage that adding a maxed Overextended to increase its range to 36.7m does not impede its killing speed much until late content.  

 

There is no dispute about which radial nuke is the strongest.  Blade Storm and Peacemaker can rival Miasma in effectiveness, but those two abilities are also in the realm of ridiculousness IMO.  Either way, I don't think anyone would be opposed to a more intuitive and more variable modding situation for Miasma.  Unless, of course, you will miss your farming tool.  (Admittedly I will miss it, but I'll still be happy to see the game shifting away from mindless farming.)

 

As for the mod system being broken, I totally agree.  That still doesn't warrant having 9540 damage Miasmas for 25 energy while comparable builds on other frames do 3180 (Avalanche) or less.  It is important to note that Miasma doesn't even require a special mod configuration to maximize its damage; the usual nuke build just happens to give it an extra-powerful boost as a side-effect.  If Miasma's huge damage build required exotic additional mods to be included, that could be considered a valid trade-off for its power, though not much of one.  

 

Inb4 DAMAGE DOESNT MATTER THIS GAME'S ALL ABOUT CC GET OFF OF MERCURY, btw.

 

I'm going to take your word for it since I have to head to work in a bit.

 

I already know it is tied for lowest, otherwise I'd have said it was THE lowest, not "among the lowest". Stretch is not an inherent part of Miasma, and even with a stretch it is still going to be among the lowest because those other abilities can ALSO make use of stretch. Overextended knocks your damage down ~4k assuming you're using a min-maxed miasma build.

 

There is nothing OP about blade storm or peacemaker, prism is pretty bad though. Inuitive (in this case) is just another way of saying dumbed-down. Nice try, but Miasma is not my 'farming tool' of choice. However, I don't see any issue with it being a farming tool. This game practically forces players to subject themselves to endless, mind-numbing, farming sessions. If your attempt is to some how stop farming, going after one of the many tools will never 'fix' the 'problem'.

 

You have failed to explain why 9k damage for 25 energy on an ult practically centered around damage and low range is an issue. The usual nuke build doesn't give it extra damage. The 'extra' damage is a result of (as you know) Miasma also scaling with negative duration, I fail to see how this is a problem. I am of the opinion that its current trade-offs are more than enough. If it required 'exotic' additional mods it would end up in the same situation that pre-rework Ember was, back when her ult scaled with power strength and duration.

 

Pretty sure someone already pulled the 'damage doesn't matter' card.

 

As has been mentioned in this thread several times already, Miasma's problem is not its base damage but the way it is calculated with negative duration mods. If I remember correctly, at one point Miasma's damage calculation was changed so that the total damage dealt would not be reliant on duration. Let me illustrate with this picture from the wiki:

 

This right here should be a plane if the damage was independent of duration mods. And it isn't because the damage formula doesn't account for builds with a duration below one second.

 

 

I'm very much expecting this to change again once Saryn gets her rework. I think they just didn't touch it yet because they know very well that all of her abilities need some changes/improvements.

 

I didn't need that picture, I am more than aware of how negative duration affects Miasma's damage. Why is scaling with negative duration a bad thing? Is it wrong for a frame to not follow the same boring modding structure?

 

As you know, the damage isn't independent of duration mods, so your claim makes no sense.

 

Or, maybe it wasn't touched because they didn't see it as a problem...? At this point, if it does get nerfed I will blame people like OP who seem to be unable to handle the thought of their frame being nerfed while others are left in their same spot (the old 'if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me' mindset).

[Kontrollo]

I didn't need that picture, I am more than aware of how negative duration affects Miasma's damage. Why is scaling with negative duration a bad thing? Is it wrong for a frame to not follow the same boring modding structure?

 

As you know, the damage isn't independent of duration mods, so your claim makes no sense.

 

Or, maybe it wasn't touched because they didn't see it as a problem...? At this point, if it does get nerfed I will blame people like OP who seem to be unable to handle the thought of their frame being nerfed while others are left in their same spot (the old 'if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me' mindset).

 

You're a founder, I'm kinda surprised you don't remember the times when Miasma scaled with positive duration. I don't quite recall anymore why they changed it to be independent, but I think it was because the ability was a bit lackluster compared to other Warframes' 4 nukes.

 

Anyway, at least the intent was to make it independent, but it wasn't and still isn't. And the addition of Transient Fortitude just blew it through the roof.

 

Now if you want to use a good build, you have the choice between using her 4th or the rest of her abilities, which I find kinda unsatisfying.

 

 

To be honest, I'm more interested in seeing changes to her other abilities (especially 1 and 3) and hopefully more synergies between them. If DE thinks Miasma's formula is fine once she gets her rework, then I'm not going to complain. I just have a feeling it's not going to last.

[THND3RZ]

I would like some of the strengh of her 4 placed on her 1 and 3.

I really like her and i'm not a fan of spamming my 4 every time there is just a group of enemy.May be a bit off topic but i don't really understand how her 4 can be a nuke when it's stated that it's a toxin in the air.

Shouldn't it be a massiv aoe DOT ?

 

Anw i would suggest her 1 and her 3 to be more intuitive especially her 3.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

You're a founder, I'm kinda surprised you don't remember the times when Miasma scaled with positive duration. I don't quite recall anymore why they changed it to be independent, but I think it was because the ability was a bit lackluster compared to other Warframes' 4 nukes.

 

Anyway, at least the intent was to make it independent, but it wasn't and still isn't. And the addition of Transient Fortitude just blew it through the roof.

 

Now if you want to use a good build, you have the choice between using her 4th or the rest of her abilities, which I find kinda unsatisfying.

 

 

To be honest, I'm more interested in seeing changes to her other abilities (especially 1 and 3) and hopefully more synergies between them. If DE thinks Miasma's formula is fine once she gets her rework, then I'm not going to complain. I just have a feeling it's not going to last.

 

What part of my previous post stated/implied that I didn't remember?

 

Again, why is that a problem?

 

That isn't exactly a new thing.

[Kontrollo]

What part of my previous post stated/implied that I didn't remember?

 

Again, why is that a problem?

 

That isn't exactly a new thing.

 

The part where you said my claim makes no sense. It's obvious, then, you knew exactly what I was talking about and conveniently ignored the context in which my post was written.

 

The problem is this if you still don't get it: with the latest addition of corrupted mods, almost all of her power is now in her 4th, even more so than before. If I was a developer for this game, I certainly wouldn't even think about giving any of her other abilities more power before having a long hard look at what negative duration does to Miasma.

[RealPandemonium]

Why is scaling with negative duration a bad thing? Is it wrong for a frame to not follow the same boring modding structure?

Well, in this case Miasma is following the same boring mod structure; it just happens to benefit 2.4x more from it than every other nuke in the game.  I also think it's implicit that we don't want radial nukes to be room cleaners.  Radial nukes should maybe apply light cc and weaken enemies over a large area [with damage] so that we can turn the odds in a bad situation.  If we want devastating nukes, then they should be difficult to use but potentially very rewarding; any given cast should be somewhat effective, a well-placed cast should be devastating, and the power should excel in some niche, but not everywhere.  

[Kayblis]

Saryn is a joke.

 

If you get one in any lower level content it turns the game from a shooter into a run-around-and-pick-up-loot simulator.

 

I'm going to be aborting missions and adding every last Saryn I come across to ignore, until they get fixed, and I can actually play the game, instead of being turned into a spectator because of a stupidly OP ability.

 

And DE want to get these higher level players out of void missions and into lower level content?  That's really going to improve the new player experience.

Take a saryn to a t4d or t4s and you'll be wondering why you brought saryn in the first place

[LornMind]

How about we don't ruin another frame. Have you all forgotten the LOS fiasco that is RJ?

[Avalona]

Seriously? Saryn? OP? oh please she barely tickles 30-minutes T4S mobs.

 

So, let's do it this way, if there exist some buttblasted people at Saryn stealing their kills in low-level maps, I say we take Rhino and Ash to those map and spam the hell out of max-range, max-power Stomp and Bladestorm.

 

Let see these people cry for Stomp nerf

.

.

..

...

....

no?

 

of course there won't be any cry for nerf on Stomp and Blade storm, these guys who scream nerf never have, never is, and never ever will, take the balance of the game into consideration, only their preference, and if they don't like it, they will keep screaming nerf....

 

Seriously, grow the hell up and accept already that being different isn't wrong. Stop thinking everything that prevents you from wasting 10 minutes in an exterminate map is wrong. Not everyone can afford to waste time in missions.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The part where you said my claim makes no sense. It's obvious, then, you knew exactly what I was talking about and conveniently ignored the context in which my post was written.

 

The problem is this if you still don't get it: with the latest addition of corrupted mods, almost all of her power is now in her 4th, even more so than before. If I was a developer for this game, I certainly wouldn't even think about giving any of her other abilities more power before having a long hard look at what negative duration does to Miasma.

 

No, even if I assumed you were talking about how miasma worked in the past, that bit of your post still makes no sense. "This right here should be a plane if the damage was independent of duration mods. And it isn't because the damage formula doesn't account for builds with a duration below one second."--But it isn't independent of duration mods.

 

You just said it yourself, the issue is the corrupted mods, not miasma. If you were a developer for this game, your method of reworking Saryn would lead to her being nerfed before you can even guarantee that her other abilities are going to be worth using (before augments)? Glad you aren't a developer for this game then.

 

Well, in this case Miasma is following the same boring mod structure; it just happens to benefit 2.4x more from it than every other nuke in the game.  I also think it's implicit that we don't want radial nukes to be room cleaners.  Radial nukes should maybe apply light cc and weaken enemies over a large area [with damage] so that we can turn the odds in a bad situation.  If we want devastating nukes, then they should be difficult to use but potentially very rewarding; any given cast should be somewhat effective, a well-placed cast should be devastating, and the power should excel in some niche, but not everywhere.  

 

But it isn't, because you COULD forgo power strength mods in favor of negative duration. It benefits because of additional scaling, and I see no problem with that. No, YOU don't want radial nukes to be room cleaners. I on do not mind as long as they continue to be limited by enemy health (or something similiar). If our aoe nukes could clear rooms regardless of enemy health I would agree with there being a problem. I completely disagree with the rest of your post (underlined). That kind of change would make nukes nigh-useless when compared to true CC abilities, and making them difficult to use would just be a huge pain in the ***. Look at how players view targeted abilities, and those aren't even that hard to use. If anything, I think our AoE nukes should get range decreases and that the corrupted mods need their downsides shuffled, with fleeting expertise getting the range decrease (cheap, but short-ranged ults).

[Kontrollo]

No, even if I assumed you were talking about how miasma worked in the past, that bit of your post still makes no sense. "This right here should be a plane if the damage was independent of duration mods. And it isn't because the damage formula doesn't account for builds with a duration below one second."--But it isn't independent of duration mods.

 

Circular argument.

 

Read my posts again and maybe you'll understand what I was talking about. And if you don't, well, then I probably just can't help you.

 

You just said it yourself, the issue is the corrupted mods, not miasma. If you were a developer for this game, your method of reworking Saryn would lead to her being nerfed before you can even guarantee that her other abilities are going to be worth using (before augments)? Glad you aren't a developer for this game then.

 

Now you're just pulling things out of thin air. If I really were a developer for this game, I'd probably start with the corrupted mods.

 

And no, I said the problem with Miasma is its damage formula, which is innate to the ability. The corrupted mods just make it "worse" (the problem with it).

 

One thing you don't seem to get is that it's very likely because of those mods that all her other abilities don't receive any love. Or do you think her 1 and 3 are on par with other Warframes' respective abilities?

 

If the devs ultimately decide to keep it as it is and buff her other stuff I'm certainly not going whine about that, I'd be a fool if I did. But to me, the latter has priority.

[aerosoul1337]

Saryn is one of the most broken frame.

3 skills are useless. And the weird damage formula of skill4 that encourages us to set minus duration.

If you max it Miasma is godly but the play style is very limited.

So I agree that we need Saryn 2.0.

Edited April 18, 2015 by aerosoul1337

[SquirmyBurrito]

Circular argument.

 

Read my posts again and maybe you'll understand what I was talking about. And if you don't, well, then I probably just can't help you.

 

 

Now you're just pulling things out of thin air. If I really were a developer for this game, I'd probably start with the corrupted mods.

 

And no, I said the problem with Miasma is its damage formula, which is innate to the ability. The corrupted mods just make it "worse" (the problem with it).

 

One thing you don't seem to get is that it's very likely because of those mods that all her other abilities don't receive any love. Or do you think her 1 and 3 are on par with other Warframes' respective abilities?

 

If the devs ultimately decide to keep it as it is and buff her other stuff I'm certainly not going whine about that, I'd be a fool if I did. But to me, the latter has priority.

 

The issue isn't a lack of understanding on my part, it is that your argument is nonsensical. I made a statement of fact.

 

Out of thin air? ", I certainly wouldn't even think about giving any of her other abilities more power before having a long hard look at what negative duration does to Miasma."

 

I disagree with there being anything wrong with its damage formula.

 

If you ignore the existence of corrupted mods, her 1 and 3 are still not worth bothering with.

 

I agree with her other skills getting buffed being the priority, but since buffing her 1-3 and leaving miasma unnerfed aren't mutually exclusive I fail to see why prioritizing one should even necessitate considering the second. My approach to reworks is fix what is broken/needlessly bad first, and only then consider breaking out the nerf bat. Because should you fail to fix the broken things, the good things are still left unnerfed leaving the item usable to some degree. Nerfing the good and then turning your attention to the bad just doesn't make sense to me.

[RealPandemonium]

But it isn't, because you COULD forgo power strength mods in favor of negative duration. It benefits because of additional scaling, and I see no problem with that. No, YOU don't want radial nukes to be room cleaners. I on do not mind as long as they continue to be limited by enemy health (or something similiar). If our aoe nukes could clear rooms regardless of enemy health I would agree with there being a problem. I completely disagree with the rest of your post (underlined). That kind of change would make nukes nigh-useless when compared to true CC abilities, and making them difficult to use would just be a huge pain in the ***. Look at how players view targeted abilities, and those aren't even that hard to use. If anything, I think our AoE nukes should get range decreases and that the corrupted mods need their downsides shuffled, with fleeting expertise getting the range decrease (cheap, but short-ranged ults).

This just comes down to "does infinite content matter?"  I will never acknowledge infinite content as being part of Warframe's core.  DE has shown us with the raid how broken enemy scaling is and how bandaid-reliant players are in that situation.  DE seems to be embracing the bandaids lately, and I fear that their attempts to monetize their game by condoning bandaids and unsustainable design trends will result in a huge waste of potential when Warframe's development finally starts to settle.  

[Kontrollo]

The issue isn't a lack of understanding on my part, it is that your argument is nonsensical. I made a statement of fact.

 

You can come back to me about this once you reread my posts. If you don't understand my argument, then it just isn't for you.

 

Out of thin air? ", I certainly wouldn't even think about giving any of her other abilities more power before having a long hard look at what negative duration does to Miasma."

 

Yes, you basically put words into my mouth by stating it would lead to nerfing her before anything else. Miasma lives in a context of mods, other abilities, enemies and a lot of different game mechanics. You have simply no idea how I would go about reworking Saryn (if I had full control, that is). My suggestions on this forum usually revolve around what is already there, not what I'd change if I could.

 

I disagree with there being anything wrong with its damage formula.

 

If you ignore the existence of corrupted mods, her 1 and 3 are still not worth bothering with.

 

I agree with her other skills getting buffed being the priority, but since buffing her 1-3 and leaving miasma unnerfed aren't mutually exclusive I fail to see why prioritizing one should even necessitate considering the second. My approach to reworks is fix what is broken/needlessly bad first, and only then consider breaking out the nerf bat. Because should you fail to fix the broken things, the good things are still left unnerfed leaving the item usable to some degree. Nerfing the good and then turning your attention to the bad just doesn't make sense to me.

 

And now we're finally getting to the point, thank you. I'm saying the interaction of the damage formula with a duration <1s is what's preventing her from getting some well-deserved improvements to her other abilities. Of course you may disagree with that and of course I may be wrong about it, in the end only the guys at DE can decide this.

 

And no, I don't think she's going to get her Miasma nerfed first (or nerfed at all, but to me this sounds unlikely; we can only hope) before getting her other abilities adjusted. She's going to receive a rework of all of her abilities together just like Ember did and Excalibur will.

[SquirmyBurrito]

This just comes down to "does infinite content matter?"  I will never acknowledge infinite content as being part of Warframe's core.  DE has shown us with the raid how broken enemy scaling is and how bandaid-reliant players are in that situation.  DE seems to be embracing the bandaids lately, and I fear that their attempts to monetize their game by condoning bandaids and unsustainable design trends will result in a huge waste of potential when Warframe's development finally starts to settle.  

 

Honestly, I do think infinite content matters... but only up to a certain point. Level 80 is the end of content that DE is bothering to balance for. Some measure of endless content is going to be a necessity, as I do not believe a free to play game could survive on just pre-determined leveled content alone. But no, I do not believe 6 hours into T4S matters, I do not like DE's obsession with band-aids, and I do not appreciate them relying on band-aids for balance.

 

You can come back to me about this once you reread my posts. If you don't understand my argument, then it just isn't for you.

 

 

Yes, you basically put words into my mouth by stating it would lead to nerfing her before anything else. Miasma lives in a context of mods, other abilities, enemies and a lot of different game mechanics. You have simply no idea how I would go about reworking Saryn (if I had full control, that is). My suggestions on this forum usually revolve around what is already there, not what I'd change if I could.

 

 

And now we're finally getting to the point, thank you. I'm saying the interaction of the damage formula with a duration <1s is what's preventing her from getting some well-deserved improvements to her other abilities. Of course you may disagree with that and of course I may be wrong about it, in the end only the guys at DE can decide this.

 

And no, I don't think she's going to get her Miasma nerfed first (or nerfed at all, but to me this sounds unlikely; we can only hope) before getting her other abilities adjusted. She's going to receive a rework of all of her abilities together just like Ember did and Excalibur will.

 

I already gave them another look, they are still nonsensical.

 

You practically stated it in the quote I gave.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

I don't understand why people don't understand minimizing duration and throwing away her other abilities IS the downside and drawback to that method.

 

If you focus on one ability, despite her others of course it's going to seem OP. You are no better than a P4tW.

 

Literally EVERY other ability is dependent on duration. You don't have to mod her that way. It's a choice. There's a huge benefit and a huge drawback. Seems fair. I completely agree with the suggestion that the other abilities should have some form of buff, so the benefit of using them is more; and more noticeable to newer players of her.

 

Corrupted mods need their downsides shuffled, with fleeting expertise getting the range decrease (cheap, but short-ranged ults).

 

I can sort of agree with this. With most abilites it doesn't really have a negative effect; first thing that comes to mind is Hydroid, simply switches it around so you can cast to instead of 1 for the same duration. Think about the effect of this change would have on MP though. Even more range (of bloom) and duration. Hysteria. Vauban in general. (you could counteract the range and get it to about 1 and be better off. Hell, even with neg range, it has a target limit anyway, you could just spam in range and be better off still.). Just a few. It would just shift the powers to different frames.

Edited April 18, 2015 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[SquirmyBurrito]

I don't understand why people don't understand minimizing duration and throwing away her other abilities IS the downside and drawback to that method.

 

If you focus on one ability, despite her others of course it's going to seem OP. You are no better than a P4tW.

 

Literally EVERY other ability is dependent on duration. You don't have to mod her that way. It's a choice. There's a huge benefit and a huge drawback. Seems fair. I completely agree with the suggestion that the other abilities should have some form of buff, so the benefit of using them is more; and more noticeable to newer players of her.

 

 

I can sort of agree with this. With most abilites it doesn't really have a negative effect; first thing that comes to mind is Hydroid, simply switches it around so you can cast to instead of 1 for the same duration. Think about the effect of this change would have on MP though. Even more range (of bloom) and duration. Hysteria. Vauban in general. (you could counteract the range and get it to about 1 and be better off. Hell, even with neg range, it has a target limit anyway, you could just spam in range and be better off still.). Just a few. It would just shift the powers to different frames.

 

I've already thought of that, I concluded that, given the community's current distaste for AoE damage ults, it would be better to take power from them (take range from them) and instead put the power into the CC abilities that aren't hindered by negative range (there aren't that many that I can think of.

Hydroid's abilities are range dependent. 

Hysteria already lasts a long time, making it last longer changes nothing.

Vauban is still range dependent.

 

IIRC only ~6 frames have ults that are unaffected by lowered range, and of those several aren't negatively affected (or are barely affected) by the current downside that accompanies Fleeting expertise.

[VoidPunch]

Bring back the old version of Venom and apply contagion to all her weapons, not just melee, and Saryn becomes one of the best frames in the game again, and the best frame for DoT in high level missions. Venom is one of those skills that doesn't shine until very late into the game as it always has been.

 

For those who started playing after the Venom nerf:

You plant spores on the host for 100% the damage. Popping a spore on from the host will spread to enemies around (clients) doing 50% the damage and had a much bigger spread radius. Popping a client's spore will spread the same as the host spores and will not reduce damage again. This meant that the host spores would do 100% the damage and all other spores, didn't matter how many clients that spore was from would do 50% the host's spores damage. But what made the skill amazing was that you could pop spores indefinitely during the duration. This mean you could have as many spores as you could pop. You could easily cover a whole defense tile in a few well placed shotgun blasts and kill everything in one cast.

 

The reason it was nerfed was that the amount of ticks got so high that it would crash low end computers... but so did continuous beam weapons and they solved that with less damage ticks per second. Bring back the old Venom but allow it to only tick once per second.

Edited April 20, 2015 by HandsOfnArtist