Has Ember Been Put On The Back Burner? She Just Doesn't Feel Worth Using Anymore.

[Racercowboy]

Well, it seems that the ember topics have cooled down, but still no word on any of the feedback. Makes me worried you know, cause I feel she just isn't worth using vs other frames. What would you use her for?

 

- To tank? Please, why would you do this.

 

- To CC? making people flail their arms is silly and can be effective plus the fire blast thing, but why do that when the likes of Vauban, Loki, and Nyx, and Nova exist?

 

- To damage? Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Ash, and Mag(seriously, have you seen a blind-raged-transient-fortitude-intensify-pull Mag? It's devastating.) says hi.

 

- To Support? Lel what support? I mean, who uses fire damage on their weapons except dedicated Embers?

 

- To do several of the above? Let's forget about the fact that you in a team for a second. Now, how many of these and other unmentioned frames can do multiple of the above, and do it better?

 

It just feels to me that compared to other frames, she has nothing. It's not that she can't be effective, just not as effective as others. I feel she has several things holding her back from what she can be. She doesn't have a numbers issue, her numbers are actually quite high, especially damage ones. What she is having is functional issues. her two biggest ones IMO are with Fireblast and World on Fire. While Accelerant works fine as is, I do have concerns about it.

 

Fireblast Radial knockdown is fine aside from any bugs I might not be aware of. The problem is that's all it is. The DoT is so bad functionally that it might as well not exist. Fixing this is quite simple really. Make it so the DoT hits in the center of the area and is affect by power range. I could go on about this, but I'll keep it short: An abilities animations should not dictate the functionality of an ability. With this, Fireblast will be a knockdown AND area DoT, which will make it worth the 75 energy cost and give Ember some much needed damage.

 

World on Fire..... Please, why both toggle AND duration. I feel as if the ability has undergone an energy consumption nerf. Granted there are other toggle + duaration skills, but they all have a reason for it. Cataclysm is so you can turn it off cause unintentional trolling, plus it can help restore energy anyway and is stationary. Prism cause of the OP blinding effect that still goes through walls and has a massive range and..... ok, I'll stop there(poor excalibro T_T). World on Fire though was originally designed as a duration skill. You cast it and it goes until it's over. No extra effects or reasons. Only reason why you would want to turn it off is to save energy. But then you need to turn it back on, which costs a chunk of energy. Fleeting expertise you say? That locks you into only one build to solve an inherent game problem, which is bad. Primed Streamline? A single powerful might-as-well-be exclusive mod should not solve an inherent game issue. It should be used for customization.

 

Accelerant... I can see what they were trying to do with this. Sadly, no one takes fire damage on their weapons, so part of the skills function is moot. I personally would like to see something like enemies hit will take X% fire damage every time they are hit with something, with the % scaling with damage dealt to the target (like, at 20% you hit a guy with 100 damage and it does 20 damage. With a 500 damage hit it'll do 100 damage) take away the fire damage boost it gives. This way, it still provides more damage, but is not so restricted and still fits her theme of burning stuff.

 

Hopefully we'll hear something about Ember soon. I feel as if the work is not done yet.

[Epicagemo]

I've ran my Ember and Saryn in invasions and tested them both to compare. My ember could hold off the bombards, while the Saryn kept getting smakced by them. It really felt like Ember was doing a better job, mainly because WoF Kills the weaker ones, then haunts the stronger ones and kept them stunlocked with that high fire proc chance. Cheap Accel stun combined, I barely took any damage. As for Saryn, She ran out of energy way too fast, and to keep her renewable, I had to use regenerative molt... max range, TF, Intensify, Fleeting-dont get me wrong, but she only does like 500 damage to bombards on the higher levels. her stun only lasted about 3 seconds, which meant the bombards kept wailing on her.

 

Ember's in a good spot right now.

[Nighttide77]

Comparing one frame to many other frames is the same thing people seem to do to explain why Ash is inferior to other frames.  It doesn't change the fact that there are still many players who really enjoy all that Ash has to offer.

 

I think what it comes down to is your own play style and what you want to bring to the table in a mission.

 

Ember is a very offensively based caster-style frame that uses fire proc for crowd control, unlike frames that use radiation or ice.  Ember is nearly perfect for fighting infested enemies.  If a pyro-style frame isn't your thing, you're obviously not going to enjoy using it.

[Jamescell]

Ember has always been about blind/stupid damage. Can't avoid her abilities, but you can't have fun with then either. Whenever a frame's design revolves around doing pure ability damage changes to the game are bound to throw things off.

The real discussion should be on reinventing her abilities to fit a more engaging playstyle.

[Dartiel]

Current Ember kick low to mid infestation's rear end.

Bu i won't say no to changes.

[AlienOvermind]

I've ran my Ember and Saryn in invasions and tested them both to compare. My ember could hold off the bombards, while the Saryn kept getting smakced by them. It really felt like Ember was doing a better job, mainly because WoF Kills the weaker ones, then haunts the stronger ones and kept them stunlocked with that high fire proc chance. Cheap Accel stun combined, I barely took any damage. As for Saryn, She ran out of energy way too fast, and to keep her renewable, I had to use regenerative molt... max range, TF, Intensify, Fleeting-dont get me wrong, but she only does like 500 damage to bombards on the higher levels. her stun only lasted about 3 seconds, which meant the bombards kept wailing on her.

Ember's in a good spot right now.

You're doing something wrong with Saryn. Fleeting Expertise + Transient Fortitude + no duration mods will give very high damage. And even if some strong enemy stays alive you can just shoot him, but it's valid for both Saryn and Ember.

[CapedBaldy]

Ember has the single highest damage buff any frame can give on abilities reliably. Fireball Frenzy + Accelerant is truly a sight to behold.

 

I would still like some extra buffs on her though. She's very lackluster as far as her other abilities go.

[Gamem]

I've ran my Ember and Saryn in invasions and tested them both to compare. My ember could hold off the bombards, while the Saryn kept getting smakced by them. It really felt like Ember was doing a better job, mainly because WoF Kills the weaker ones, then haunts the stronger ones and kept them stunlocked with that high fire proc chance. Cheap Accel stun combined, I barely took any damage. As for Saryn, She ran out of energy way too fast, and to keep her renewable, I had to use regenerative molt... max range, TF, Intensify, Fleeting-dont get me wrong, but she only does like 500 damage to bombards on the higher levels. her stun only lasted about 3 seconds, which meant the bombards kept wailing on her.

 

Ember's in a good spot right now.

"Invasion" That isn't end game. You sound like scott right now. "I tested it in level 10! Its op! Its good."

[-Kyuubi-]

I agree that she could be better, and i wont say no to some buffs or tweaks to her abillitys but really comparing Ember to Frames that can only spamm one abillity to achieve something.

 

Even if i still dont like her Fireblast i use it as i do with all her other 3 skills and they are atleast fun to use because i can do something besides sitting in one spot and pressing 4 all the time.

 

She is in an "Ok" spot right nao, you can still play highlevel content with her if you use your brain a bit

[Monolake]

To quickly clear invasions/exterminates. In highlevels she can buff teammates and thats it.

[RexRgisIocus]

If you're going to be comparing frames, then any frame will look weak when compared to Nova, Trin, Nyx and Loki.

Edited March 31, 2015 by RexRgisIocus

[Racercowboy]

I notice a lot of people are bringing up that comparing frames is not the best thing in the world. If we don't compare frames, then how will we know if they are balanced? What standard do we go by?

 

Yes, I am comparing frames, but I am comparing what the bring to the table. For instance:

 

If you're going to be comparing frames, then any frame will look weak when compared to Nova, Trin, Nyx and Loki.

 

Yes, these frames are very strong. However, There are things that even they cannot do. Nova is Miss Nuke-alot, but her nuke subsides at high levels and becomes a damage buff and debuffer rather than a nuke. She can't safely use antimatter drop alone, she needs protection. At this point in time, it'd be nice to have someone who can still dish out the pain. Ash, on the other hand just keeps rolling the enemies, even though he lacks CC. Put them together, you have some synergy, even if it's a little. They have things to bring to the table to help the team, no matter how far up or down they are on a supposed "tier" list.

 

On the other hand, what does Ember bring that others can't bring? If it weren't for some quirks, it could have been constant, on demand DoT. Unfortunately, in her current state she cannot.

[(PSN)DanceOnUrGav3]

Ember prime is my baby. She's so close to being perfect, she just needs a little bit more love 

[Ryjeon]

Ember is a hybrid of damage and cc. You can argue that other frames perform cc or damage better but none provide quite the same level of combined pressure and versatility that Ember brings via way of persistent World of Fire panic and nearly instant cast Accelerant stuns. She also allows a lot of freedom of movement which can be appealing if the mobility aspect of warframe is your favorite feature as it is mine. Once you have around 60% power strength the status proc of World on Fire activates on the majority of the enemies especially because the ability prioritizes enemies that aren't crowd controlled. Playing Ember is bit like playing a Radial Blind Excalibur combined with an aoe/buff frame.

 

So basically area control via way of Accelerant and World on Fire, and occasionally Fire Blast

Persistent aoe damage for controlling and winnowing crowds of enemies.

And a damage buff to weapons to help focus fire tougher and priority targets.

 

CC, Aoe Damage, Focused Damage.

 

She's just an alternative that might appeal to some people's playstyle over others. I think the lot of you don't really understand or readily recognize her current potential. If you're going to compare her to other frames, maybe those other frames are just more appealing for you. But that doesn't seem like a good reason to remain ignorant of what Ember actually does. Are you going to say no to a Peach Cobbler cause "Apples are better." No, they both contribute to a healthy diversity and understanding the merits of each frame on their own terms can help you play with them better.

 

40 mins T3S solo http://i.imgur.com/rocOzqD.jpg?1

1 Hour T3S http://i.imgur.com/hwKMtxz.jpg?1

In the T3S in particular I don't think I could have had quite the same impact as I did if I were on a different frame. As I was a major source of both area crowd control and damage.

 

Anyway, endgame generally implies a certain level of coordination. It's not hard to coordinate with Ember by taking a few corrosive projections or status effect weapons and equipping some combo/Heat damage. People don't understand how to coordinate with Ember because their knowledge of the frame and therefore the game is incomplete.

 

Anyway, my next project is solo T4S for an hour. Wish me luck.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Ryjeon]

I will say this though. It's not necessarily the job of the player to understand the game. It's the job of the designer to make the game comprehensible to the players. At least in this sort of game.  So even though myself and others are fine with Ember. If the majority of people continue to be unable to utilize the concept then the concept or presentation of the class still needs to be worked on by the developers. My only point of remorse may be that a redesign may diminish the strengths and merits that are already present. When we were unable to refresh Accelerant on affected enemies, those were dark times. I'd hate for Ember to be "buffed" in some ways and nerfed in other ways to compensate.

 

In making Ember more like the frames who "do it better" she may lose the things that make playing her a unique experience.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ryjeon

[RealPandemonium]

We need to make Accelerant's stun last 30 seconds and WoF needs to do 10000 base damage.  Then I'm sure people will stop posting inanely on the forums?  Probably not; they'll start asking for a radial nuke and invisibility on top of it, I'm sure.

[Mr.Lube]

Ember is a good Warframe. The problem does not lie with her, the problem is the terrible enemy design. In Warframe's "endgame" content enemies just become bullet sponges that one shot you. The only way to beat this is to spam CC abilities until the enemies can barely move and are unable to hurt you.

 

Warframe is in dire need of some better enemy design. Instead of just being incredibly lazy and bumping up a few numbers enemies NEED to introduce new mechanics and equipment to challenge the players and force them to work as a team. 

 

Refer to this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-we-need-better-enemies-not-just-bullet-sponges-grineer-nullifiers-yes-plural/

[Racercowboy]

snipz

Excalibur is different from other frames in his ability diversity. Does this mean he's ok in his current state because you can't compare him to other frames? No, it doesn't. Someone may be uber pro with Excalibur and solo T4S to 2 hours, but that does not mean he is ok. It's the same for Ember. Yes, you can do well with her. You can do well with any frame given the right skills and skill level. but that does not excuse Fireblast's and WoF's glaring issues as outlined in the OP.

Maybe I'll litterally draw it out. This is Fireblast's DoT component(excuse my magnifici- I mean, terrible drawing skills).

The red "O" is the DoT. The the yellow square burning. The blue square is completely safe. Is it not obvious that something is wrong here? How can people turn a blind eye to this? Simply making it hit in the center are will not make Fireblast function any differently than what it does now. It only now hits in the entire area. What sin does this commit? Why are people so against this? Why are people ok with Fireblast being only a 75-energy-knockdown?

WoF's energy consumption is too much with it's current duration + toggle. Even in your build you posted you opted for maxed TF over a rank 5 BR. You chose to sacrifice more duration on 2-4 abilities and have to cast ~27.5% more times just to have efficiency, when duration is supposed to benefit a DoT skill by making it hit more times in a single cast and last longer so less casts = energy saved. But it doesn't work that way with WoF. Do you not see something wrong here? Changing it to a straight toggle or straight duration will not change how WoF burns stuff. It will just make it cost less energy overall.

Yes, I can see what ember can potentially do, but I also see some things very wrong that's hindering what she can really do. It's sad when you see an Ember in the party and suddenly you're reminded "Hey, this warframe exists!"

Edited March 31, 2015 by Racercowboy

[RexRgisIocus]

Excalibur is different from other frames in his ability diversity. Does this mean he's ok in his current state because you can't compare him to other frames? No, it doesn't. Someone may be uber pro with Excalibur and solo T4S to 2 hours, but that does not mean he is ok. It's the same for Ember. Yes, you can do well with her. You can do well with any frame given the right skills and skill level. but that does not excuse Fireblast's and WoF's glaring issues as outlined in the OP.

Maybe I'll litterally draw it out. This is Fireblast's DoT component(excuse my magnifici- I mean, terrible drawing skills).

The red "O" is the DoT. The the yellow square burning. The blue square is completely safe. Is it not obvious that something is wrong here? How can people turn a blind eye to this? Simply making it hit in the center are will not make Fireblast function any differently than what it does now. It only now hits in the entire area. What sin does this commit? Why are people so against this? Why are people ok with Fireblast being only a 75-energy-knockdown?

WoF's energy consumption is too much with it's current duration + toggle. Even in your build you posted you opted for maxed TF over a rank 5 BR. You chose to sacrifice more duration on 2-4 abilities and have to cast ~27.5% more times just to have efficiency, when duration is supposed to benefit a DoT skill by making it hit more times in a single cast and last longer so less casts = energy saved. But it doesn't work that way with WoF. Do you not see something wrong here? Changing it to a straight toggle or straight duration will not change how WoF burns stuff. It will just make it cost less energy overall.

Yes, I can see what ember can potentially do, but I also see some things very wrong that's hindering what she can really do. It's sad when you see an Ember in the party and suddenly you're reminded "Hey, this warframe exists!"

 

While I agree that Fireblast should do what Fire Fright does without needing said augment as it should already have been that way I disagree somewhat on the WoF thing.

 

I find I rarely (never actually) need duration on Ember. I literally have 8 seconds on my WoF and it has worked fine for me. I sometimes even deactivate it with 2-3 seconds to spare. I just activate it when I see a group of enemies to burst them down quickly and somewhat safely because of the insane panic(because of heat procs).

 

Having WoF be an actual toggle just makes the ability able of being active for a ridiculous amount of time and dealing insane amounts of damage or being way too cheap for its damage as would be my case. Unlike Absorb, Soundquake, etc. you can actually move with WoF active. That sounds broken to me. Mirage also has a timer on Prism because she also can move.

 

On the other side, going back to it being just duration with no toggle means you are wasting energy on exploding air once the enemies you activated it for are dead.

[Ryjeon]

Excalibur is different from other frames in his ability diversity. Does this mean he's ok in his current state because you can't compare him to other frames? No, it doesn't. Someone may be uber pro with Excalibur and solo T4S to 2 hours, but that does not mean he is ok. It's the same for Ember. Yes, you can do well with her. You can do well with any frame given the right skills and skill level. but that does not excuse Fireblast's and WoF's glaring issues as outlined in the OP.

Maybe I'll litterally draw it out. This is Fireblast's DoT component(excuse my magnifici- I mean, terrible drawing skills).

The red "O" is the DoT. The the yellow square burning. The blue square is completely safe. Is it not obvious that something is wrong here? How can people turn a blind eye to this? Simply making it hit in the center are will not make Fireblast function any differently than what it does now. It only now hits in the entire area. What sin does this commit? Why are people so against this? Why are people ok with Fireblast being only a 75-energy-knockdown?

WoF's energy consumption is too much with it's current duration + toggle. Even in your build you posted you opted for maxed TF over a rank 5 BR. You chose to sacrifice more duration on 2-4 abilities and have to cast ~27.5% more times just to have efficiency, when duration is supposed to benefit a DoT skill by making it hit more times in a single cast and last longer so less casts = energy saved. But it doesn't work that way with WoF. Do you not see something wrong here? Changing it to a straight toggle or straight duration will not change how WoF burns stuff. It will just make it cost less energy overall.

Yes, I can see what ember can potentially do, but I also see some things very wrong that's hindering what she can really do. It's sad when you see an Ember in the party and suddenly you're reminded "Hey, this warframe exists!"

 

There's always room for improvement. I myself have asked for efficiency changes and a longer duration World on Fire. I've suggested adding a melt armor to Ember.  And I think Fire Blast is a very unpolished sort of skill. But there's a difference between saying a frame needs work versus saying a frame can't be used or can't perform. When someone says Ember's abilities are only good for doing damage it shows they have a lack of understanding about Ember's kit.

 

Excalibur's limitations speak for themselves. He still provides a pretty decent crowd control but not a whole lot else unless a team is specifically coordinating to him. Ember provides many things. But she is frequently unfavorably compared to frames who are more specialized in their roles. Ember is a damage-favoring hybrid with cc as her survivability. She may not CC as hard as Vauban or Loki but she'll output a lot more damage. She may not damage as hard as a Saryn or Mesa. But she can output a lot more CC. In short she can simultaneously do the jobs of two different types of frames in one package. And she can provide even more with coordination. It's an unbelievable amount of power and it's no wonder DE is reluctant to buff her further.

 

Respecting the merits of a frame is not the same thing as insisting that the frame not be improved. And asking for something to be improved ought not to be the same thing as saying a frame has no merits. It is freakishly senseless to call Ember useless.

 

But with how long people have been complaining it's pretty much inarguable that she needs another balance pass. She obviously has persistent usability issues for most of the userbase.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ryjeon

[(PSN)sammyp03]

To me, she hasn't been very good since she lost Overheat. She is s Glass Cannon but is to much Glass not enough Cannon.

[.Czern]

Get rid of duration on WoF, increase Fire Blast's damage and we are set.
Any further changes would be unnecessary IMO, unless there is global powers overhaul in the works.

The real discussion should be on reinventing her abilities to fit a more engaging playstyle.

Honestly, I find her to be the frame requiring engaged play the most.

 

To me, she hasn't been very good since she lost Overheat. She is s Glass Cannon but is to much Glass not enough Cannon.

Start using power strength mods and Accelerant.

Edited March 31, 2015 by .Czern

[(PSN)sammyp03]

Get rid of duration on WoF, increase Fire Blast's damage and we are set.

Any further changes would be unnecessary IMO, unless there is global powers overhaul in the works.

Honestly, I find her to be the frame requiring engaged play the most.

 

 

Start using power strength mods and Accelerant.

Even so.She suffers from MAD. At least for my playstyle, I haven't found anything to make her standout compared to other frames. I love ember, I love her theme but shes underwhelming IMO.