An Alternate View On Hidden Messages

[Morec0]

So far, we've all been thinking "okay, so the Tenno Lotus was talking to was named Mirage" and that's been throwing a lot of things into question, because if she was named Mirage AND wore the Warframe Mirage then what does that say about our ability to switch frames? Was she completely bound to Mirage? Was she an original in Mirage?

 

But I recently had a revelation: Lotus never mentions Mirage's name, not even once, until the very end of the quest. As the quote goes:

 

"Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered."

 

And listening to the quote via Youtube videos makes that pause even more clear. I think she was not saying "the part of her, of Mirage" but rather "the last part of her... no, of Mirage". She's having to correct herself, remind herself that the Warframe recovered isn't the Tenno, that the Tenno who'd been wearing the Mirage Warframe at the time is still very much gone.

 

So, what we have if a Warframe named Mirage but an unnamed, but still likely female, Tenno who'd been wearing the frame at the time, rather than a Tenno named Mirage that was wearing the Mirage frame. I think that somewhat resolves the naming issue.

 

What it doesn't resolve is the matter of Ordis seemingly calling Limbo Limbo as it were his name, but there is the first quote on the name:

 

"A Limbo part blueprint!..."

 

And then another quote from later on:

 

"... this Limbo is telling us his story in pure math..."

 

Suggesting perhaps he was just one wearer of what was once many, and with that Ordis' later references to "Limbo" are all talking about the frame itself rather than the wearer, but it still feels a touch damaging to my theory. So, take this for what you may.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Morec0

[Circle_of_Psi]

wat

[Hixlysss]

Thus far we know the warframes are suits, with void warped people inside as batteries. The question is...do the people inside the suits determine their powers, or do the suits? How much of a tenno is the suit?

[Fionntan]

It make sense to view the frame's name as a tools name; the person who made the frame just gave it a signature to represent it. Just like weapons, heck warframe are consider "weapons" from the Orokin era.... I like where this is going +1

[Morec0]

Thus far we know the warframes are suits, with void warped people inside as batteries. The question is...do the people inside the suits determine their powers, or do the suits? How much of a tenno is the suit?

 

Given we switch suits and powers with it, I say the relation is the following:

 

The Warframes have the abilities they use and the physical strength they display.

 

The Tenno act as a battery, as well as pilot, to power these abilities and strength.

 

This would fit with my reading of the RPC, but the EPC (Ember Prime Codex) throws this into some question - given the supposed use of fire, and many people's assertion that the Codexes are ALWAYS talking about ONLY the frame in question. But I have the alternate theory that what happened to Kaleen wasn't burn-by-fire, but burn-by-radiation, fitting with an idea of the Tenno pilots of the Warframes being simply brimming out of control with Void energy, to the point where it is physically damaging to those around them, and perhaps reinforce-able through Melee Channeling and the energy glowing and disintegration of enemies who die by it.

[Kalenath]

So... I haven't been following all of your threads, so I better ask.

 

Are you saying that the Tenno are energy forms inhabiting the meaty machines that LOOK like human bodies inside the warframes?

[Morec0]

So... I haven't been following all of your threads, so I better ask.

 

Are you saying that the Tenno are energy forms inhabiting the meaty machines that LOOK like human bodies inside the warframes?

 

No, what gives you that impression?

 

I'm just saying with this that the earlier interpretation that Mirage was ALSO the name of the Tenno in question and not just the class of Warframe she was wearing may not be 100% accurate.

[Blakrana]

It's admittedly in line with how I've viewed the naming conventions for frames.

 

After all, Ordis mentions (I think it's in Hidden Messages) on discovery of a part, you've 'discovered a whole new class of Warframe!' if memory serves correctly. The names of the Warframes seem ultimately to be their Series name.

 

However, within the usage of these Warframe series, we have individual Tenno that are the Exemplar of that Warframe's usage; the Mirage user in Hidden Messages was undeniably pretty badass in her last battle. The Limbo user seems arguably the one who first started that series due to their special interest in the Rift plane. These brilliant individuals are then arguably immortalised through the Series being used by other Tenno; they established an entire combat paradigm. They're true names may be unclear, but they're impact? As significant as the Great Tenno Clans who dubbed the Mod polarities.

 

This would fit with my reading of the RPC, but the EPC (Ember Prime Codex) throws this into some question - given the supposed use of fire, and many people's assertion that the Codexes are ALWAYS talking about ONLY the frame in question. But I have the alternate theory that what happened to Kaleen wasn't burn-by-fire, but burn-by-radiation, fitting with an idea of the Tenno pilots of the Warframes being simply brimming out of control with Void energy, to the point where it is physically damaging to those around them, and perhaps reinforce-able through Melee Channeling and the energy glowing and disintegration of enemies who die by it.

 

As I see it, it seems plausible that whatever the Tenno 'natural' state is outside of a Warframe construct, they're not functioning on necessarily the same level as humans. As you state, it's arguable that their Void energy is wild and behaves similar to radiation as a result.

 

So...assuming the Tenno retain their physical body (regardless of issues) the Warframe is effectively a hyper-specialised combat quarantine suit. Where other Power Armour settings are keeping bad stuff out (Samus' Varia suit protects her from Metroids and such), the Warframes could protect the Tenno's allies or environments from their unconditioned Void powers.

 

For sake of comparison, NEXTs in Armoured Core 4 and For Answer use Kojima Particles: Highly radioactive so they pollute the world around them whilst dominating Warfare. In civilian areas, you can't use any Kojima Technology for the horrible side effects it'd have on people.

 

Warframe to Tenno are the inverse, where the Tenno need the Warframe to constrain and contain their Void energy else it...'leaks' for lack of better terminology. Humanoid form and traits are just the Orokin expressing their Anthropocentric and Anthropomorphic tendencies per their being, from what evidence we have, simply a human empire. We do love ourselves, after all. The big 'achievement' for AI is Human-like intelligence after all.

 

We'll have to see, but as I see it this is the best summation in support of your stance I can compose without digging into the source material again.

[Kalenath]

No, what gives you that impression?

 

I'm just saying with this that the earlier interpretation that Mirage was ALSO the name of the Tenno in question and not just the class of Warframe she was wearing may not be 100% accurate.

 

I am fuzzing. Too early. In my fanfictions, I went that way, so was just blurring the line between your theory and my writing. My bad.

 

Personally, I think you are right. The Tenno was never named and the Lotus mean 'Mirage' as the warframe, not the Tenno wearing it. But that is my interpretation of it.

 

In my stories, the Tenno used the warframe name as a nomiker until they had more than one of each kind, then it got too confusing, so they used human first names as identifiers.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Kalenath

[Blakrana]

So... I haven't been following all of your threads, so I better ask.

 

Are you saying that the Tenno are energy forms inhabiting the meaty machines that LOOK like human bodies inside the warframes?

 

Technically the closest you're getting to an advocate of that would be myself...although I prefer to classify my view as Migratory Consciousness rather than 'energy being' because Energy Beings are very very different things in their own right.

 

Yes, admittedly the conscious mind is no more than biochemical energy interactions at heart (sorry...) but Energy Being is closer to things like say, the Drej of Titan A.E or good old fashioned Elementals of Fire and such in fantasy things. A consciousness is so much meaningless data without a body context, by comparison.

 

As it stands, Morec0's theories are more in the vein of 'Tenno have bodies, Warframes psuedo-consume them ala Guyver type relationship to accomodate forms per their classification'.

Polite apologies if that's an over simplification, Morec0.

[Morec0]

It's admittedly in line with how I've viewed the naming conventions for frames.

 

After all, Ordis mentions (I think it's in Hidden Messages) on discovery of a part, you've 'discovered a whole new class of Warframe!' if memory serves correctly. The names of the Warframes seem ultimately to be their Series name.

 

However, within the usage of these Warframe series, we have individual Tenno that are the Exemplar of that Warframe's usage; the Mirage user in Hidden Messages was undeniably pretty badass in her last battle. The Limbo user seems arguably the one who first started that series due to their special interest in the Rift plane. These brilliant individuals are then arguably immortalised through the Series being used by other Tenno; they established an entire combat paradigm. They're true names may be unclear, but they're impact? As significant as the Great Tenno Clans who dubbed the Mod polarities.

 

 

As I see it, it seems plausible that whatever the Tenno 'natural' state is outside of a Warframe construct, they're not functioning on necessarily the same level as humans. As you state, it's arguable that their Void energy is wild and behaves similar to radiation as a result.

 

So...assuming the Tenno retain their physical body (regardless of issues) the Warframe is effectively a hyper-specialised combat quarantine suit. Where other Power Armour settings are keeping bad stuff out (Samus' Varia suit protects her from Metroids and such), the Warframes could protect the Tenno's allies or environments from their unconditioned Void powers.

 

For sake of comparison, NEXTs in Armoured Core 4 and For Answer use Kojima Particles: Highly radioactive so they pollute the world around them whilst dominating Warfare. In civilian areas, you can't use any Kojima Technology for the horrible side effects it'd have on people.

 

Warframe to Tenno are the inverse, where the Tenno need the Warframe to constrain and contain their Void energy else it...'leaks' for lack of better terminology. Humanoid form and traits are just the Orokin expressing their Anthropocentric and Anthropomorphic tendencies per their being, from what evidence we have, simply a human empire. We do love ourselves, after all. The big 'achievement' for AI is Human-like intelligence after all.

 

We'll have to see, but as I see it this is the best summation in support of your stance I can compose without digging into the source material again.

 

Indeed, and since we'd be fighting alongside Grineer soldiers in the Old War (as the Lancer Synthesis suggests) there's certainly a reason for that to be the case.

 

As for the explanation of the Warframe shapes, I think that's certainly the reason - though I don't share your Migratory consciousness theory.

 

I am fuzzing. Too early. In my fanfictions, I went that way, so was just blurring the line between your theory and my writing. My bad.

 

Personally, I think you are right. The Tenno was never named and the Lotus mean 'Mirage' as the warframe, not the Tenno wearing it. But that is my interpretation of it.

 

In my stories, the Tenno used the warframe name as a nomiker until they had more than one of each kind, then it got too confusing, so they used human first names as identifiers.

 

My earliest theory was similar - the Tenno had codenames, codenames seen in the name of the Warframe (for the first Tenno to wear that frame) and the Helmets (Tenno who, for whatever reason, wore a differently-designed helmet and did some great deed to have that design be given their codename), and, of course, various other codenames, purely on the Tenno-to-Tenno basis.

 

But this theory then becomes confusing when considering that Tenno can switch Warframes, especially if they were the first to wear the Excalibur and were Codenamed Excalibur even when they went into, say, a Mirage.

 

I still think that the Tenno had codenames, maybe both with or without real names, but I don't think they were as attached to their Warframe/Helmet names as they once were.

 

Technically the closest you're getting to an advocate of that would be myself...although I prefer to classify my view as Migratory Consciousness rather than 'energy being' because Energy Beings are very very different things in their own right.

 

Yes, admittedly the conscious mind is no more than biochemical energy interactions at heart (sorry...) but Energy Being is closer to things like say, the Drej of Titan A.E or good old fashioned Elementals of Fire and such in fantasy things. A consciousness is so much meaningless data without a body context, by comparison.

 

As it stands, Morec0's theories are more in the vein of 'Tenno have bodies, Warframes psuedo-consume them ala Guyver type relationship to accomodate forms per their classification'.

Polite apologies if that's an over simplification, Morec0.

 

A simplification, but pretty much on-point. Of course, as always, my theories are subject to change as information continues to be presented.

[Rexlars]

So far, we've all been thinking "okay, so the Tenno Lotus was talking to was named Mirage" and that's been throwing a lot of things into question, because if she was named Mirage AND wore the Warframe Mirage then what does that say about our ability to switch frames? Was she completely bound to Mirage? Was she an original in Mirage?

 

------

 

And listening to the quote via Youtube videos makes that pause even more clear. I think she was not saying "the part of her, of Mirage" but rather "the last part of her... no, of Mirage". She's having to correct herself, remind herself that the Warframe recovered isn't the Tenno, that the Tenno who'd been wearing the Mirage Warframe at the time is still very much gone.

 

 

I never thought that nor did I think anyone else thought that. 

 

As for the 2nd part, the way it's said does not mean she was referring to the Tenno inside the suit. 

 

"Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered." This quote doesn't reference the Tenno inside the suit. The Mirage Warframe is a female, clearly, & she's directly referencing the suit. That's all. 

 

If you want another way to look at the quote, try this: "Tenno, the last piece of her....you know, Mirage, has been recovered." When she said "...of Mirage.." it's to let you know exactly what/who she was alluding to when she said "her," which is the suit.

[Morec0]

I never thought that nor did I think anyone else thought that. 

 

As for the 2nd part, the way it's said does not mean she was referring to the Tenno inside the suit. 

 

"Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered." This quote doesn't reference the Tenno inside the suit. The Mirage Warframe is a female, clearly, & she's directly referencing the suit. That's all. 

 

If you want another way to look at the quote, try this: "Tenno, the last piece of her....you know, Mirage, has been recovered." When she said "...of Mirage.." it's to let you know exactly what/who she was alluding to when she said "her," which is the suit.

 

Indeed, but through the rest of her storytelling, when she was not identifying anyone by name but instead just "her" and "she", she's talking about the Tenno inside. After all, I doubt the Warframe could:

 

"I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair..."

 

She does go on to say that "the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever." seconds later, but a few people would call into question why a Warframe is being referred to with gender pronouns - even though I see reasons behind Warframes having a gendered appearance, even I don't see why they'd be referred to as a gender pronoun (ironic, given I do think they're living things).

[Quatrez]

So far, we've all been thinking "okay, so the Tenno Lotus was talking to was named Mirage" and that's been throwing a lot of things into question, because if she was named Mirage AND wore the Warframe Mirage then what does that say about our ability to switch frames? Was she completely bound to Mirage? Was she an original in Mirage?

 

But I recently had a revelation: Lotus never mentions Mirage's name, not even once, until the very end of the quest. As the quote goes:

 

"Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered."

 

And listening to the quote via Youtube videos makes that pause even more clear. I think she was not saying "the part of her, of Mirage" but rather "the last part of her... no, of Mirage". She's having to correct herself, remind herself that the Warframe recovered isn't the Tenno, that the Tenno who'd been wearing the Mirage Warframe at the time is still very much gone.

 

So, what we have if a Warframe named Mirage but an unnamed, but still likely female, Tenno who'd been wearing the frame at the time, rather than a Tenno named Mirage that was wearing the Mirage frame. I think that somewhat resolves the naming issue.

 

What it doesn't resolve is the matter of Ordis seemingly calling Limbo Limbo as it were his name, but there is the first quote on the name:

 

"A Limbo part blueprint!..."

 

And then another quote from later on:

 

"... this Limbo is telling us his story in pure math..."

 

Suggesting perhaps he was just one wearer of what was once many, and with that Ordis' later references to "Limbo" are all talking about the frame itself rather than the wearer, but it still feels a touch damaging to my theory. So, take this for what you may.

Maybe Ordis refers to the Limbo suit, maybe the suit itself has concious? 

[Echowing]

I've always thought of there being some tenno with new warframes, the originals, that we currently copy for our own use.  In essence, the "Mirage" from Hidden Messages was both the original Mirage warframe, and the frame's wearer.  Similarly, the first Limbo, and it's operator, are both referred to as "Limbo."  This also (at least for me) explains Valkyr.  The original Valkyr was the one who was captured and experimented on by the corpus.  We tenno, lacking the knowledge or technology to rebuild the original, merely began copying the damaged version.  As it stands, I think that the original frames are being referred to by the frame's gender, as we don't really know what the tenno truely are.

[Blakrana]

Indeed, and since we'd be fighting alongside Grineer soldiers in the Old War (as the Lancer Synthesis suggests) there's certainly a reason for that to be the case.

 

As for the explanation of the Warframe shapes, I think that's certainly the reason - though I don't share your Migratory consciousness theory.

 

A simplification, but pretty much on-point. Of course, as always, my theories are subject to change as information continues to be presented.

 

That Synthesis entry just made me think again how 'Antlike' the Grineer people seem to be, in a strange way. Workers bred to Work, Soldiers bred to fight. For a kind of breeding, at least. Certainly interesting.

 

As for the rest of it, I like to think of it as with any intellectual problem; there is only so much information, so we can only entertain so much theoretical constructs within the limited framework. The theory may be strengthened or weakened by later information, or utterly destroyed by one telling piece of evidence.

 

Honestly, I rather like that we can agree on some of the basic notions as to the 'Why', yet we're equally interested in exploring alternative forms of 'How'. Seriously, it's a fascinating expression of the difference of the human mind...but I digress. Academic intrigue for you.

 

Whatever happens, when we find out once and for all (insert Hek here for funsies) what the Tenno-Warframe relationship is, it would be nice to congratulate the people who guessed correctly.

 

In a sense, I think it's like a game of cards and it'll only be fair to congratulate the 'winner' on a game well played.

And no game of cards works well without an opponent, no?

 

Regardless, I do enjoy engaging in these debates.

 

Indeed, but through the rest of her storytelling, when she was not identifying anyone by name but instead just "her" and "she", she's talking about the Tenno inside. After all, I doubt the Warframe could:

 

"I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair..."

 

She does go on to say that "the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever." seconds later, but a few people would call into question why a Warframe is being referred to with gender pronouns - even though I see reasons behind Warframes having a gendered appearance, even I don't see why they'd be referred to as a gender pronoun (ironic, given I do think they're living things).

 

English grammer issue possibly (we can't actually talk about things in an agender context unlike say in Japanese), or the case that it's because of the as stated Anthropomorphic nature of Warframe design. By making them seem human, making them seem gendered, it somewhat forces you to use language like that.

 

It, ironically, humanises them, despite the Tenno's implied Pariah social status.

 

Maybe Ordis refers to the Limbo suit, maybe the suit itself has concious? 

 

I..it's possible, but that's a lot of interesting implications. Granted, the Chroma Quest seems to have been a Chroma hijacked by something that wasn't a Tenno.

 

However, the sheer implications of that are very interesting and...messy. Would Tenno be little more than Slavers, if a Warframe is directly conscious? Granted, Mutually Beneficial Relationship could be the nature of the connection, and I'd argue that'd be a likely case if so but...as it is, we've got Rhino Prime Codex for the arguable Worse Case Scenario of a frame without a Tenno to 'dominate' it, as Simaris puts it...although that in and of itself suggests there is a thing to dominate.

 

We don't know...but so far, we've got one anecdotal account of a possible Tenno-less Warframe, and two quests where a Warframe has been hijacked by an outside source. What that means for the greater narrative...we can but guess.

 

Whatever the case is, we just don't have enough to go on, yet.